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Directional interconnects?
What are directional audio interconnects. When are they appropriate and when are non directional cables the way to go?
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The theory
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Originally Posted by Bigmoney
What are directional audio interconnects. When are they appropriate and when are non directional cables the way to go?
I've I got it right, the theory is that the insulatiing material (dilelectic) in the interconnect assumes a slightly different electrical configuration over a period of time depending on the direction of the flow of the current. Furthermore, that once stablized for the particular direction of current flow, the sound is better.
Many interconnects come with direction indicators, but in most cases there is no physical diffence one direction versus the other. The idea is that if you use them consistently with a given direction of current, the cable's dielectric will stablized for that direction.
I personally have never heard a difference in cables with respect to either burn-in or direction, but other people may well hear a difference (or imagine they do).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
I've I got it right, the theory is that the insulatiing material (dilelectic) in the interconnect assumes a slightly different electrical configuration over a period of time depending on the direction of the flow of the current. Furthermore, that once stablized for the particular direction of current flow, the sound is better.
Many interconnects come with direction indicators, but in most cases there is no physical diffence one direction versus the other. The idea is that if you use them consistently with a given direction of current, the cable's dielectric will stablized for that direction.
I personally have never heard a difference in cables with respect to either burn-in or direction, but other people may well hear a difference (or imagine they do).
This may be true for a DC current but an audio signal??? :confused5:
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Audioquest has interconnects designed around this theory, the DBS (Dialetric Bias System). The cables actually have a 48V source to align the polarity of the dialetric around the conductors. I haven't seen any reviews, or seen anyone list them as interconnects in their reference systems. It seems the design would reduce the "burn-in" time.
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Some IC's are directional because they are shielded and the shield is only grounded on one end. Of course I can not remember if the grounded end of the IC is supposed to be at the source end or the amp end.
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Ahh, I see. I suppose it may have some scientific explanation as to how it may improve sound but it seems for all intensive purposes it's just more snake oil, agreed?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
Some IC's are directional because they are shielded and the shield is only grounded on one end. Of course I can not remember if the grounded end of the IC is supposed to be at the source end or the amp end.
If memory serves, they are grounded at "opposite" ends, which is why they are marked for direction (to prevent the grounded ends being hooked to the same component).
Directional cables are one of those things that I am just ..... how shall I put this? I am unconvinced.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvin Da Blues
This may be true for a DC current but an audio signal??? :confused5:
Somebody got busted :D
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Somebody, maybe
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Originally Posted by Smokey
Somebody got busted :D
I just told it the way I heard it. I wonder ... is it the direction of the current or just which end of the pipe is "hot"??
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Cables such as Transparent and MIT's must be directional due to the use of networks. Insert the cable incorrectly and the effect is obvious.
On a typical cable the reason to maintain ONE direction is due to Eddy currents. The flow of current through the cable creates an electromagnetic field. I don't fully understand exactly the theory to explain it. The Eddy currents is what causes "skin effect" in cables where the highs are forced to the outer surface of the wire. The effect on audio cables is also due to the flow of electrons, some how when they flow in one direction for a period of time with the effect of Eddy current the flow will meet more resistance the other direction.
Feel free to correct me if I got some of that jumbled. You'll see some manufacturers talking about a method they utilize to minimize the Eddy effects.
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The world according to AudioQuest
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Originally Posted by Bigmoney
What are directional audio interconnects. When are they appropriate and when are non directional cables the way to go?
Here's a link to AudioQuest's "cable theory". The document targets audiophiles, not scientists, so it isn't difficult to read. It presents various plausible-sounding theories as to what effects speaker sound.
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huh?
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Cables such as Transparent and MIT's must be directional due to the use of networks. Insert the cable incorrectly and the effect is obvious.
On a typical cable the reason to maintain ONE direction is due to Eddy currents. The flow of current through the cable creates an electromagnetic field. I don't fully understand exactly the theory to explain it. The Eddy currents is what causes "skin effect" in cables where the highs are forced to the outer surface of the wire. The effect on audio cables is also due to the flow of electrons, some how when they flow in one direction for a period of time with the effect of Eddy current the flow will meet more resistance the other direction.
Feel free to correct me if I got some of that jumbled. You'll see some manufacturers talking about a method they utilize to minimize the Eddy effects.
Again. we're talkin' AC here, not DC. The current is constantly changing direction.
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If you are referring to the Eddy currents it apparently has an effect on both AC and DC. Eddy current effects are effectively used on braking systems for trains and roller coasters. Your speakers receive a DC signal. The effect still happens with lower level signals.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Your speakers receive a DC signal.
No, speakers receive an AC signal if the amplifier is working properly. That's what drives the speaker. If it's receiving any significant amount of DC, there's a problem with the amp.
Besides, we're talking about interconnects, aren't we? So, where do speakers come into play?
In any case, unless there's a diode in the signal path, the "directionality" of a cable (or interconnect) will have no efffect on an AC signal at all.
And, for eddy currents to be an issue there must be physical movement which is valid for train brakes but is absent here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current
I'm waiting for someone to say that the signal path has to tilt downwards because the signal flows better going downhill due to the effect of gravity.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markw
I'm waiting for someone to say that the signal path has to tilt downwards because the signal flows better going downhill due to the effect of gravity.
OK...
..the signal path has to tilt downwards because the signal flows better going downhill due to the effect of gravity. :biggrin5:
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hominahominahomina...
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Originally Posted by Luvin Da Blues
OK...
..the signal path has to tilt downwards because the signal flows better going downhill due to the effect of gravity. :biggrin5:
Oh, a wise guy, eh? whyyioutta.... :biggrin5:
(pick two fingers)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markw
How did train brakes get into this discussion :D
Mr Peabody, Eddy current is caused by [moving] electromagnetism. In DC electromagnetism is constant, so there is no eddy current in DC.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markw
Oh, a wise guy, eh? whyyioutta.... :biggrin5:
(pick two fingers)
Duh, why do you think people put their amps on the floor? Why does lightning look like it goes from the sky down? Why did they used to put powerlines overhead?...so when they hooked up houses it was down hill. Need more proof? :lol:
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Naim felt Eddy current effects cables
http://www.naim-audio.com/products/cables.html
Here's a guy who engineered all of his audio products around resisting Eddy
http://www.stereophile.com/artdudley.../404listening/
Audience cables claim to fame is resisting Eddy
http://www.stereotimes.com/cables071001.shtml
Here's a great article by an engineer at Marshall Electronics, not only does he mention Eddy but gives many valid reasons why one might hear differences in cables
http://www.pcrecording.com/cable.htm
This guy who is a robotics engineer talks about claims made by cable companies. He says Eddy currents are evident in any conductor in a magnetic field. He provides a good explanation of Eddy and why it is in conductors. He also says the effect would be minimal in the audible range. It is interesting he says a stranded wire is best to minimize Eddy where Audience claims a solid core conductor is best. Gee why would anyone be confused.....
http://white.hometheatertalk.com/cableclaims.htm
Here is another good article about cable claims in general but as the others validate the existence of Eddy in cables
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/intere.html
Yet another cable company, yet another acknowledgement of concern over Eddy in conductors (wire)
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=12&gl=us
You can believe it's there or not.
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BTW-
Does he say the power supply converts AC to DC, how did you all miss that?
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/amplifier1.htm
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Some people still swear they still see elvis.
And they're free to believe that but if they try to convince me they did, I'd have the same reaction to someone telling me that an AC signal flows better in inew direction than another.
That is, don't piss on my shoes and try to tell me it's raining.
I don't see anywhere in those links you so kindly provided that have anything to do with audiable differences depending on the directionality of cables. do you? So, nice try pulling a melvin and side-stepping the directionality issue.
I still say gravity has more of an effect. After all, electrons do have weight so it must have an effect, right?
AFAICT, what started out as a valid solution to a grounding issue got misinterperted by (sarcasm mode on) "one of those in the know" (sarcasm mode off) and he told two friends, and they each told two more friends, ad infinitum and, before you know it, another hi-fi myth is born.
We're getting into areas covered in another thread entitled "What's really killing the high end" here.
Here's some more for ya : http://www.machinadynamica.com/
Now, how about we get back to the subject at hand (directionality) and please watch where you're pointing that thing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markw
No, speakers receive an AC signal if the amplifier is working properly. That's what drives the speaker. If it's receiving any significant amount of DC, there's a problem with the amp.
Besides, we're talking about interconnects, aren't we? So, where do speakers come into play?
In any case, unless there's a diode in the signal path, the "directionality" of a cable (or interconnect) will have no efffect on an AC signal at all.
And, for eddy currents to be an issue there must be physical movement which is valid for train brakes but is absent here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current
I'm waiting for someone to say that the signal path has to tilt downwards because the signal flows better going downhill due to the effect of gravity.
I got in trouble with my electric shop teacher in high school because I got the answer wrong on a test: In which direction does current flow? Well, I was looking at the meter in front of me and answered with... left to right, because the + side connection was on the right side and the - was on the left. True story. And boy did he get pissed!!!
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Mr. Peabody, in all honesty, I tried hookin up a pair of directional cables in the opposite direction as well as one rca in the correct direction and one in the opposite. Not to disclaim that their is a lot of science and research that goes into building a high quality cable, BUT I beg to believe that beyond the basics to cable design ( shielding, capitance, inductance, termination, solid verse stranded and copper grade) all other innovations are inaudible to even the most trained ear. That is unless by trained you mean canine.............
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Markw, The links were provided because you and your nay sayer friends didn't seem to understand the claims of Eddy currents in cables, which was given as a reason for the directional arrows. You and Smokie are like the guy discussed in the one article you are quick to dismiss anything, open your mouth all the time to criticize but have never tried the tweak you condemn. I personally wouldn't buy directional over non-directional for any reason unless one sounded better in my system. I also do not support or dismiss the directional theory. I figure if a cable manufacturer provides arrows and says it should go this way, then they must have a reason for doing so. Like when I replace a battery, I put in in the way the arrow shows. In addition, I didn't see you providing any links on direction one way or the other either. The links were provided to show I didn't just make up the claims of Eddy currents in cables. I post from things I've read or from experience which you might try. It's much easier for those of you to claim disbelieve when you talk from your butt.
The link to Pear cables does mention direction. Grado's Signature cables are directional but they don't say why.
This guy validates something already mentioned here about the grounding and one end having ground not connected to prevent ground loops.
http://listserve.com/archiver/html/c.../msg00506.html
I have to admit it is easy to find cables with arrows and recommend a certain direction but an explanation why is more difficult. I guess they expect us to already know.
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Bigmoney, I have some RCA's that have arrows, one pair is from Audio Note, and I have incidently put them in place backwards and didn't notice it when listening. However, the cables mentioned, Transparent and MIT, use networks, I have many Transparent brand, and when those are in backwards it is audible. I'm not sure what are in the networks but apparently the direction of the connection is very important. Their story is all about something called "antenna effect" of runs of cable and the networks are said to counter that effect. The reason I purchased them is the vast improvement in sound quality I noticed. Some people like to split hairs and mense words for argument sake, like saying cables cannot improve the sound quality of your equipment. Although, in one aspect I agree with that, cables can however improve the overall system presentation by allowing more of what your system is capable of to shine through. By claiming cables don't make a difference is the same as saying better parts can't improve the sound of equipment. The signal is leaving one piece of equipment to enter another and it stands to reason the better that signal is protected and the easier it flows the better the result.
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