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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
That test tells us that the wire is more capable of operation in an environment where temperatures are far too high for normal wire insulations. That is by design, the specific application warrants it.
You know we've had this discussion before. I have no doubt there are some arcane characteristics required by your scientific applications. I don't have, for example, any dancing audio components that regularly stress my cords.
Middle of cable thread
If aftermarket cords are so unsafe, you'd think after more than a decade there would be at least a single report of an event caused by one. Go figure. Here are several companies (clearly known to Belden) who use or recommend the 83803 specifically as power cord.
http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/power-cord.html
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...53&rak=100-790
http://www.elementcable.com/catalog/...b4f1f92cf7e97a
http://www.diycable.com/main/product...8ef69847604dd6
http://zebracables.com/zc12.html
http://www.lavacable.com/purchase.htm
http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/Ca...ble_83803.html
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
You know we've had this discussion before. I have no doubt there are some arcane characteristics required by your scientific applications. I don't have, for example, any dancing audio components that regularly stress my cords.
There are definitely many arcane requirements in my applications. Note that I did not state that those requirements are necessary for home use.
No dancing audio components?? What, you using headphones:confused: If you do not have to tie down the components, the music is not loud enough..:p
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
How many of these vendors provide a UL approved cord using the wire you choose? The process of submitting a construct to the UL approval process will find any weak links in the product. If not done, the construct capability is unknown..It may be far superior, it may have a weak link, but that is unknown.
Since aftermarket cords are not a standalone item in house fire or electrocution statistics, you ask a question which is not answerable.
Hmmm...If I used a non UL approved line cord, and it caused a fire...what would I do...
1. Not disclose the fact that the non approved cord was the cause of the fire, so that I can allow my insurance company to pay out on a fire damage claim....
or
2. Tell the firemen, the insurance adjuster, post it on all the audio forums, tell the whole world that a non approved entity which I used to replace an approved one, was the cause of the fire.:confused: In this way, they can deny the claim.
Personally, if I were in the position, I would choose door number 1.
I do my best not to be in that position, which is why I recommend safety first.
Cheers, John
PS..although we have indeed had this discussion before, it is still a pleasure to have nice and reasonable dialogue with you over this.. tis a pity some forums do not allow this..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
I do my best not to be in that position, which is why I recommend safety first.
Good advice, but if the dreaded contingency has never occurrred to anyone else, then the likelihood seems rather low to me. It is a far more defensible position to never drive or be a passenger in a car. What's the figure? - something like 40,000 people die every year in them. As for UL certification, how many folks in the general public:
A) Even know what that is
even if so:
B) Know whether or not each and every thing they've purchased that plugs into the wall has it?
Does my illuminated globe have UL certification?
Does the antique lighted stained glass turtle my wife inherited from her grandmother have UL certification?
Does my Coca Cola Polar Bear lava light have UL certification?
I can honestly say I don't have a clue as to the answer for any of those questions. None of them, however, uses $15.00 Hubbell, Schurter or Marinco plugs. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
PS..although we have indeed had this discussion before, it is still a pleasure to have nice and reasonable dialogue with you over this.. tis a pity some forums do not allow this..
Indeed. This is an enjoyable hobby!
rw
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Well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
I may be out on a limb here, but I would like to think that wire tested to 200 degrees C specifically designed for critical fire controls that costs about five bucks a foot would be more resistant to such than a one dollar UL cord. I could be wrong.rw
...there's 200degC and there's 200degC...we aren't talking ovens or internally developed heat...we speak of fire, flame, crackle, crackle...smoke..I believe there is a difference.
Like drugs, brand names are more expensive. Teflon(tm)-insulated wire costs more because the raw materials cost more and the process to apply it requires the wire to be treated in some manner(read it once but can't remember)...plus, it isn't a simple dip, more of an extrusion application...that's why there are other, cheaper(read:generic), non-PTFE-based, flame retardant, plenum-grade wires now in use. Cost, as we already know, really doesn't mean much as it's all relative.
Teflon-wiring is cable...made for placement, more-or-less permanent installation...it goes in (fastened in most cases), it works and is left alone...power cords are, as you pointed out, cordage. Cords are designed to withstand constant handling, and regardless of your conscientious intent, it is made for a public who, in addition to leaving it bundled during use (a def no-no...again heat issues), generally mishandle it or give it to the kids to use as a jump-rope when not needed.
Generally, Teflon stuff (even Cat-5 plenum) is difficult to work with...couple that inherent stiffness of the dielectric with the three conductors, each which are comprised of seven strands of 20ga. tinned copper and it obviously seems most unsuitable for a power cord.
It also has a minimum bend radius of 3.25in. Bend it beyond that minimum(actually a negative maximum in my POV) too many times and the insulation will weaken and crack...been there, done that. It can actually damage other non-PTFE wiring as its hardness can abrade other insulations.
Cordage. The Belden PN 19364 is 14/3...three bare-copper conductors each comprised of forty-one strands of 30ga. Quite a bit more flexible...it's pvc insulations are thicker and the wire in toto has a larger diameter and contains a jute filler to help keep its shape, all the better to withstand a certain amount of anticipated mis-handling. A minimum bend radius isn't stated simply because it's not intended to be used as a permanent install. It's also specd @ 2000VAC for the Dielectric Withstand Voltage...the plenum stuff has no such spec.
It carries a UL designation of SJT. The entire list goes from HPN ( basically heater cordage) at the top, down to XT which is Christmas tree wiring. The SJT is in the top third and indicates that it is a Service Junior Thermoplastic. Not suitable for heaters etc. but not simple parallel service wire either. The thing is, it's listed for this use...something cobbled together from plenum cable simply isn't and in this day when folks can sue (and win) Col. Macwendybelle because they spilled coffee on themselves or some mindless dolt goes after Apple because he exposes himself to dangerous SPLs, I think accountability is the bottom line.
Me and my guys run solid-conductor plenum and non-plenum cable, CAT-type and otherwise...Most of it is terminated in modular patch bays...the patch cords we use are Ta-Da!!! Cat-5 configured, 24ga.stranded and pvc insulated...off-the-shelf, industry standard...
jimHJJ...and not a hint of Teflon...)
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