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  1. #1
    Forum Regular Tony_Montana's Avatar
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    Question Cables reviewing by reputable publications/magazines.

    We usually [mostly] dismiss cable reviews by consumers as placebo effect, or as exaduration of cable effects. Some reviewers go as far as explaining in detail signature of each cable they had in their system a year ago (as compare with the current one). So there are alot of room for error and bad judgment here, and I think that is main cause of dismissing their reviews as faulty.

    But what about when reputable publications or magazines reviewing cables? And they do exactly sound like consumer's reviews. With adjective such as flabby bass, warmer midrange, wider dynamics, excellent imaging, rich in textural, more resolution and on and on......one have to ask if we can dismiss these reviews as easily as consumer's reviews?

    The old argument about [audio] publication's review is that since they accept advertisement money from audio manufactures, then they are obligated to make positive review of their products.

    But the main question here is: Is advertisement money the ONLY motive behind positive (or negative) review of cables? I mean we do believe most of publications reviews about speakers, receivers or DVD players. Then why not believe their cable reviews??

    Here are couple of publications which do review cables frequently:

    http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/m..._reference.htm

    http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/reviews.asp
    "Say Hello To My Little Friend."

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    But the main question here is: Is advertisement money the ONLY motive behind positive (or negative) review of cables? I mean we do believe most of publications reviews about speakers, receivers or DVD players. Then why not believe their cable reviews??
    Well, you will notice that hardly anyone bothers to measure the performance of cables and interconnects. I think you already know why. have absolutely no reason to believe reviewers who believe they hear all sorts of major differences between electronics designed to be neutral who also believe in major differences between proper cables and interconnects.

    As for electronics, other than signal processors, I am prepared to believe the measurements but tend to ignore purely subjective accounts of their sound unsupported by measurements.

    As for speakers, I use measurements as a screening tool but while I do take some account of reviewers' subjective preferences, with speakers I wouldn' t say I believe them. But the magazines tend to think many of the same speakers are good, and a recommendation may put speakers on my audition list. But after all, our preferencesare the ones that count in a purchasing decision.
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    I don't know why these reviews would be any better than consumer reviews. They've bought into the same mythology that you can hear differences between any component, no matter how trivial(note the digital cable review on the sidebar of the Soundstage review...digital cables need burnin...who knew!). Well, of course you can if you know which component is attached.

    In fact, I would say that these people's egos and money are so tied up in this mythology that you would never get them to backtrack and admit that they need to use testing controls and that their conclusions may be worthless. In my book, that makes these reviews less than worthless; they are disinformation.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  4. #4
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Do they use any controls? Is it all sighted listening? Ifthe naswers are no and yes, I'd be very suspect.

    Years ago when I was playing these games, I swore I heard things I've never heard before with the new toys. Lo and behold, when I went back to my old stuff, the same "new" sounds were there also!!! I just never listened hard enough or carefully enough until I had the incentive.


    ...just shows to go ya.

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    I can't imagine why anyone would think these publications reputable. Having read a few of their reviews, I'd consider them trash. Their opinions are no more credible than the ones you will read on this web site from anonymous contributors.

  6. #6
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    A few questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    I can't imagine why anyone would think these publications reputable. Having read a few of their reviews, I'd consider them trash. Their opinions are no more credible than the ones you will read on this web site from anonymous contributors.
    Why should anyone here read anything you write?

    How are we to know if you are credible?

    Are we to trust your advice? Why?

    I'm not trying to be mean or an *******, I'm just asking reasonable questions.

  7. #7
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    Why should anyone here read anything you write?

    For the same reasons they read what other people write. People come here to express their views. Other people come here to read them and make their own comments or just see what different people have to say. I have always said, if you don't like the kind of things I write, pass up my comments and go on to somebody elses or another thread.

    How are we to know if you are credible?

    You don't. Like a lot of other people here, I am anonymous and want to stay that way. I'm just a moniker attached to some postings. You don't know anything about me except what I choose to tell you and then you have no way to know if any of it or even none of it is true.

    Are we to trust your advice? Why?

    You have to make up your own mind. Frankly, I don't trust ANYTHING I read on the internet myself. At least I don't if it doesn't make sense or I can't get independent verification from someone I know and trust. And I don't suggest that anyone else take internet advice with more than a grain of salt either. You have no way to know if I really am an electrical engineer with 35 years of varied experience or just lying. We've had liars here before. Some people may have tried some of my advice and found it useful. Others may have tried it and been disappointed. If you read what I post at all, make up your own mind.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    ... but what about when reputable publications or magazines reviewing cables? And they do exactly sound like consumer's reviews. With adjective such as flabby bass, warmer midrange, wider dynamics, excellent imaging, rich in textural, more resolution and on and on......one have to ask if we can dismiss these reviews as easily as consumer's reviews?
    What about 'em? Sorry, Tony, but whenever a magazine starts to review or evaluate or extoll or criticize or compare friggin' pieces of wire, thus elevating the entire subject to the level of something of actual importance, they lose whatever credibility or reputation they might have ever had with me - simply because whatever performance differences between wires MIGHT exist are too damned minuscule, tiny, infinitesimal, and in the final analysis irrelevant as to be worthy of serious discussion.

    People that claim to experience HUGE improvements in performance are only the victims of their very own ABEs ... it's as simple as that! If that comes off as narrow-minded or closed-minded - so be it. My 60 years of hands-on experience working with audio have convinced me of the truth of what I'm saying.
    woodman

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  9. #9
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    What if...

    People that claim to experience HUGE improvements in performance are only the victims of their very own ABEs ... it's as simple as that! If that comes off as narrow-minded or closed-minded - so be it. My 60 years of hands-on experience working with audio have convinced me of the truth of what I'm saying.[/QUOTE]

    A person claims to hear differences, not HUGE, but differences none the less? Are they then victims of their own ABEs, as you say, or is there a difference? In othert words, can cables make a difference?

    I say they most certainly do.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bturk667
    A person claims to hear differences, not HUGE, but differences none the less? Are they then victims of their own ABEs, as you say, or is there a difference? In othert words, can cables make a difference?

    I say they most certainly do.
    Any difference in performance between any two pieces of wire are one of three things:

    1. One of the two wires is defective - not performing up to the level of which it was designed to be capable ... or,

    2. One of the two wires has been intentionally engineered to alter in some way the signals passing through ... or,

    3. The actual performance difference is gonna be too small to be of any meaningful significance. Claims by people that the difference is NOT subtle or small or insignificant are the result of their personal ABEs creating the sensory perception that they're experiencing.

    When meaningful differences are proclaimed, they are ineveitably experienced in sighted testing ... NOT in any "blind" testing of any sort - SBT, DBT, TBT, QBT, it doesn't matter. When the identity of what's being evaluated is KNOWN, all real objectivity and lack of bias goes right out the window. It cannot be otherwise unless the "tester" has been asleep in a cave - Rip Van Winkle style for the last 47 years. Everything we see, hear, read, or are told by others make an impact - generally in the subconscious of the recipient, where they accumulate and begin to form the dreaded Attitudes and Beliefs which have such a profound effect on everything we experience through our 5 senses. If the perceived differences were actual, there should be little difficulty in telling one from the other just about EVERY time ... not a mere 10 or 11 out of 15 tries. AFAIK, this has NEVER been accomplished by anyone! Doesn't that tell us something of significance? What it tells us is just what I stated earlier ... that the actual differences (when they in fact DO exist) are gonna be tiny - not meaningful.
    woodman

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  11. #11
    Forum Regular Tony_Montana's Avatar
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    Smile Cables as tone control.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodman
    Any difference in performance between any two pieces of wire are one of three things:

    1. One of the two wires is defective - not performing up to the level of which it was designed to be capable ... or,

    2. One of the two wires has been intentionally engineered to alter in some way the signals passing through ... or,

    3. The actual performance difference is gonna be too small to be of any meaningful significance. Claims by people that the difference is NOT subtle or small or insignificant are the result of their personal ABEs creating the sensory perception that they're experiencing.

    I will definitely agree with you on number 2. Unless manufacture have in some way altered the performance of cable, then there shouldn't be any meaningful differences between cables.

    For example, many exotic speaker cables that actually acted like a tone control, rolling off high frequency response due to excessive resistance and inductance (warm sound), while other cables make a system sound bright because of their excessive capacitance causing the amplifier to peak its high frequency response (detail sound).

    But somebody might ask what is wrong with a cable that does alter the sound intentionally if it a make system sound better. And the answer would be...what about scenario where the recording we are listening to (since each recording have different equalization) have the same exact equalization or tone as the cable does? Then one will get double the warm sound (if record is warm and using warm cables), or double the bright sound of a system (vice versa)
    "Say Hello To My Little Friend."

  12. #12
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    There is nothing wrong with using tone controls. They have a very valuable and specific function in a sound system. Unfortunately, audiophiles who imagine an idealized world where all recordings are made with equipment and are played back on equipment having a flat frequency response and that room acoustics don't alter audible frequency response have been convinced that they aren't necessary. Then they complain about cds sounding too shrill and speak about the "signature" of this speaker or that amplifier meaning its frequency response.

    Using cables as an equalizer is a terrible idea. They are unpredictible in their effect. Even an experienced engineer having all of the necessary data would find it difficult to accurately predict what any given cable would do audibly in a sound system. Only trial and error have shown that so many of them have no effect. They are uncontrollable. You can't control which frequencies they will effect or to what degree. You are left to the mercy of hit or miss luck and it is invariably miss. They are expensive. Some of them cost hundreds or even thousands of dollars with no guarantee that they will do what you want. You can spend the rest of your life looking for just the right one. A graphic equalizer on the other hand is predictable and controllable and at a modest cost. And one other thing. Connecting loudspeaker cables with extreme electrical reactance, especially capacitance creates a risk of damage to some power amplifiers. Unless you set the controls of a graphic equalizer to their extreme positions and throw all reasonable caution to the wind, there is no risk to the rest of the system by using one. Perhaps that's why every professional sound system incorporates them.

  13. #13
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    But the main question here is: Is advertisement money the ONLY motive behind positive (or negative) review of cables?
    What a cynical outlook, Tony ! I confess that my response is biased because I have known two TAS reviewers for over twenty five years. Long before they became audio reviewers, each of them, albeit in different ways, have been lovers of music. That is their primary motive behind the sharing of same. Their passion is easy to recognize whenever listening to or discussing the reproduction of music. Surely there are some bad apples out there, but there are lots of good ones, too.

    Another factor that is often forgotten is to remember what the good reviewers actually tell us to do. The answer is NOT to blindly follow their preferences. Reviews are simply meant to be guidelines to assist us with our selection process. By stating their reference equipment, type of music played, listening biases, and specific findings, we then can weigh that opinion as we make our own informed decision.

    rw

  14. #14
    Forum Regular Tony_Montana's Avatar
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    Smile Too many variable.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Reviews are simply meant to be guidelines to assist us with our selection process. By stating their reference equipment, type of music played, listening biases, and specific findings, we then can weigh that opinion as we make our own informed decision.
    You see, there are too many variables to make any conclusive decision base on references you mentioned. And throw in the fact that reviewer might be biased and have different listening taste (like bright, or warm sound), and the task of choosing the right cables from reviews alone will be a tough task.

    That is why I belive one will get better results (and reviews) if we approach cables objectively which mean the test is repeatable and will have the same results. IMO, a cable's electronic specifications such as resistance, inductance and capacitance will say more about a cable, its performance and how it will perform than many [subjective] reviews all saying different things about cables.

    For example, look at two posts below that are discussing silver cables and its sonic quality. One is saying that silver cable have no glaring effect (whatever that means), and another reviewer is saying the opposite:

    http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cab...ges/86570.html
    http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cab...ges/86575.html

    Wouldn't having cable [electronic] specifications more informative than reading above reviews???
    "Say Hello To My Little Friend."

  15. #15
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    And throw in the fact that reviewer might be biased and have different listening taste (like bright, or warm sound), and the task of choosing the right cables from reviews alone will be a tough task.
    We all have biases. As I stated previously, the good reviewers state their biases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    That is why I belive one will get better results (and reviews) if we approach cables objectively which mean the test is repeatable and will have the same results.
    At some future time when such measurements (likely different ones) prove to be truly relevant then I would agree. Go ahead comparing electronics with similarly useless metrics such as THD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    For example, look at two posts below that are discussing silver cables and its sonic quality. One is saying that silver cable have no glaring effect (whatever that means), and another reviewer is saying the opposite:
    Did you forget the title of your post?

    Cables reviewing by reputable publications / magazines

    The posts cited are neither.

    rw

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Lo and behold, when I went back to my old stuff, the same "new" sounds were there also!!! I just never listened hard enough or carefully enough until I had the incentive.


    ...just shows to go ya.
    Or, you just plain forgot, as should be as time passes
    mtrycrafts

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bturk667

    A person claims to hear differences, not HUGE, but differences none the less? Are they then victims of their own ABEs, as you say, or is there a difference? In othert words, can cables make a difference?

    I say they most certainly do.

    Only one way to know, under bias controlled listening. Anything less is just speculation and is unreliable.
    mtrycrafts

  18. #18
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    We all have biases. As I stated previously, the good reviewers state their biases.

    A good reason to use biase controlled evaluations that has more meaning. You know, DBT evaluations.



    At some future time when such measurements (likely different ones) prove to be truly relevant then I would agree. Go ahead comparing electronics with similarly useless metrics such as THD.

    Oh, the measurements are here today, especially for cables.
    You may want to contact some reputable audio experts on this, such as Dr. Floyd Toole, or Paradigm, or PSB, or Dunlavy. They can certainly demonstrate and correlate measured data.

    Some just cannot accept what is and speculate about what is not.
    mtrycrafts

  19. #19
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    A good reason to use biase controlled evaluations that has more meaning. You know, DBT evaluations.
    I have no problem with the concept, just weak execution. I await hearing details of a DBT that isn't dumbed down to be worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Oh, the measurements are here today, especially for cables.You may want to contact some reputable audio experts on this, such as Dr. Floyd Toole, or Paradigm, or PSB, or Dunlavy.
    Or engineers of far better equipment such as Alon, GamuT, Edge, VTL, Joule Electra, et. al who have a different perspective. Didn't Dunlavy go out of business?

    rw

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    I have no problem with the concept, just weak execution. I await hearing details of a DBT that isn't dumbed down to be worthless.

    Then you have nothing to evaluate audible differences as sighted listening has nothing going for it, not fixable from the start. You have nothing then. DBTs are not 'dumbed down' and have meaning. Some just don't like the answers.



    Or engineers of far better equipment such as Alon, GamuT, Edge, VTL, Joule Electra, et. al who have a different perspective.

    They may have different perspective. Means nothing in the real world of audio. That leaves out the high end voodoo world that they may be part of. But then I don't know any of these outfits. Maybe for the best, my blood will not boil.


    Didn't Dunlavy go out of business?


    Don't know. If they did, wasn't because of poor design.
    mtrycrafts

  21. #21
    Forum Regular Tony_Montana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Did you forget the title of your post?

    Cables reviewing by reputable publications / magazines

    The posts cited are neither.
    Ok, so here are two reviews of Kimber Kable Heros Interconnects by publications "Secret of HT and High Fidelity" and "Soundstage".

    Here are excerpts from each review that are somewhat opposite to each other:

    Secret review writes:"Previously, the sound of his system had been hard, metallic, and altogether, in my opinion, utterly disgusting. After fitting the system with a pair of Heros, the high frequencies became almost feathery soft and light, but without a loss of detail. Heros are inherently smooth, warm, and somewhat effervescent cable".

    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...imberhero.html

    But Soudstage review of Heros writes:"As such, the rest of the components in the audio chain should be up to snuff because the Heroes will not mask sonic deficiencies in recordings or equipment. Those looking to, say, tame the digitized nasties from a lesser CD player might be better off looking elsewhere".

    http://www.soundstage.com/upton07.htm

    So basically one review is saying that Heros ICs are smooth and warm, while the other review saying that Heros are not warm or smooth and will not mask harshness of music.

    I hope you see the fault in subjective reviewing of cables. Everybody got a different take on how a cable sound.
    "Say Hello To My Little Friend."

  22. #22
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    I love it

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    ..."tame the digitized nasties"...
    God I wish everyond hated cds. With many DG, Phillips, and so many other great cds labels selling used at the Princeton Record Shoppe for $5 or less and few over $10, I get to own a vast collection of some of the greatest recordings of the greatest music ever made and in perfect condition because so many people don't like cds. Bring on the digitized nasties. Now my only problem is which ones to listen to first.

  23. #23
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    DBTs are not 'dumbed down' and have meaning. Some just don't like the answers.
    ALL tests, DBTs included, can only provide answers based upon the testing criteria used. If Consumer's Union does testing between a number of vacuum cleaners, and based upon the study, concludes that say uprights are better than canisters, then those results are only valid for the sample tested. There could well be any number of cannisters not in the test group that are better than any of the original study.

    Similarly, I have no problem with Stereo Review conducting DBTs on cables using inexpensive receivers and bookshelf speakers with the conclusion that all cables sound the same. It is only when such results are then extrapolated far beyond the test study that they are rendered comical. Such a test proves absolutely nothing for when the level of the audio gear is significantly raised. The often referenced Russell link consists only of results on mid-fi equipment (that is to say where they provide ANY detail whatsoever as to the gear used).

    rw

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    ALL tests, DBTs included, can only provide answers based upon the testing criteria used. If Consumer's Union does testing between a number of vacuum cleaners, and based upon the study, concludes that say uprights are better than canisters, then those results are only valid for the sample tested. There could well be any number of cannisters not in the test group that are better than any of the original study.

    Similarly, I have no problem with Stereo Review conducting DBTs on cables using inexpensive receivers and bookshelf speakers with the conclusion that all cables sound the same. It is only when such results are then extrapolated far beyond the test study that they are rendered comical. Such a test proves absolutely nothing for when the level of the audio gear is significantly raised. The often referenced Russell link consists only of results on mid-fi equipment (that is to say where they provide ANY detail whatsoever as to the gear used).

    rw
    Yes, you may be right if there was only one test. There isn't. 30 years of testing on any different number of gear, including very expensive cable maker's gear with null results.
    Where are all the positive data on expensive setups? Why is none to be found after 30 years? It should be a snap from what I gather from you.

    Oh, your vacuum is a very poor analogy. Unfortunate. I thought you would know better.
    mtrycrafts

  25. #25
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    30 years of testing on any different number of gear, including very expensive cable maker's gear with null results.
    Can you point me to at least one such test with full details?

    rw

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