cable selection ????

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  • 04-02-2005, 10:39 PM
    dung0981
    cable selection ????
    Hi all.
    I currently have Conrad johnson MF 2300A amp, Pair of B&W N803 and Audio research SP9.I like to taste a lot of bass. Now time to upgrade my cable .Can you please give me advise to select speaker cable and interconnect?
    Thank in advance :)
  • 04-03-2005, 05:07 PM
    Shwamdoo
    What is your budget for cables like?

    I like Transparent and Cardas the best. Others brands that are fairly popular are MIT, Nordost, Synergistic Research, and Kimber. Once you know how much you want to spend it will be easier to make model recommendations.

    If you are looking to save alot of money (Which isn't likely judging by your system.) Vampire Wire sells extremly cheap alternatives with great value and performance.
  • 04-03-2005, 09:42 PM
    dung0981
    I can spent around $300 on speaker cable. I can buy the used one in good condition.
    Can anyone give me recommandations.
    Thanks
  • 04-04-2005, 12:16 PM
    Resident Loser
    Bass response...
    ...is dependent on a few things...none of which are your wires...

    Contrary to the opinion of some, your budget will not affect your bottom end...only your bottom line...

    jimHJJ(...FWIW...)
  • 04-04-2005, 01:32 PM
    musicoverall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dung0981
    Hi all.
    I currently have Conrad johnson MF 2300A amp, Pair of B&W N803 and Audio research SP9.I like to taste a lot of bass. Now time to upgrade my cable .Can you please give me advise to select speaker cable and interconnect?
    Thank in advance :)

    What cables are you using now? Do you really need to upgrade or do you just think you should because you've upgraded your other gear?

    I would tend to agree with Resident Loser that different wire probably isn't going to impact the bass you get from your system. They may, however, impact some other characteristic of your sound. But do let us know what you're currently using.
  • 04-04-2005, 03:53 PM
    Shwamdoo
    For $300.00 your options with those brands are very limited. Cardas and MIT are almost out of the question. Kimber offers the TC, VS, and the PR. I own a pair of the 8TC which is the most expensive of the three and a model that many people like. Transparent offers the MusicWave/Link and the Link/Wave 100 and 200. I own a pair of the MusicWave/Link cables and it is my favorite of all these. However, it is also the most expensive (Imagine that...). Nordost is also an option. They make the Super Flatline, Flatline, and 4 Flat models. The Super Flatline is an impressive cable and I almost purchased a pair myself.

    All of these cables are available with an internal bi-wire option. If you are on a budget and you would like to bi-wire (Which I, along with many others, prefer.) I would definitly recommend this. Buying two pairs of cables to bi-wire can become too expensive.

    Other than that I must recommend again that you make your own cables, espesially at this price level. You can afford copper or silver of a much higher quality and more effective connectors. Vampire Wire sells six nines continuous cast copper which can be extremly effective. They also make great and inexpensive connectors. Eichmann is another alternative to connectors which I, and many other have grown to like. Many DIY webpages sell plans and parts to construct their cables. Some even list plans free on their web pages. I suggest searching until you find a design that catches your attention. If you are concerned that your cables wont look "audiophile"ish, then you can use heat shrink tubing and other types of flexible insulation to add to their vissual appeal. All in all, I think that it is a great way to save money while getting much better pefromance. Plus, its kinda fun to go to town with a soldering iron.
  • 04-04-2005, 05:48 PM
    dung0981
    Right now, i am using all audioquest( interconnect + speaker cable) . Because i heard one of the dealer told me change the speaker wire by Cardas or Kimber. That will make the sound a lot better. Sound will be warmer and sweeter. Anyone, pleaseeee?
    Thanks
  • 04-05-2005, 03:13 AM
    A-Audiophile
    Kimber...which wire to choose
    I have owned Kimber all but Select series and have listened to select's in my system....as well as Cardas, XLO, Monster etc. most all name brand that are sold via hi-fi shops. I ended up with AudioQuest KingCobras for their clarity and smoothness and their ability to not to alter the sound stage as well as letting ALL low end information through. These are more of the [get out of the way yet smooth] cables than the other cables that alter the frequencies and placement of people/instruments [fore/aft] in the sound stage. Also with speaker cables I went with AudioQuest Gibraltar’s, having sold my Kimber 8TC BIG step up from Kimber.....low end detail, lets the power threw and changes nothing. Both Cardas and Kimber are way over priced IMO.....check the reviews here and other places...compare them at home if your dealers will let you borrow them without having to buy them. Let the cables speak for themselves.
  • 04-05-2005, 04:55 AM
    musicoverall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dung0981
    Right now, i am using all audioquest( interconnect + speaker cable) . Because i heard one of the dealer told me change the speaker wire by Cardas or Kimber. That will make the sound a lot better. Sound will be warmer and sweeter. Anyone, pleaseeee?
    Thanks

    You can try out Cardas, the Quadlink or the Twinlink. Is there a dealer that will lend you these cables? Or you can take a shot on www.audiogon.com and see if you can find a used pair. www.audioadvisor.com sells these new in various lengths as well. They have a 30 day trial period.
  • 04-05-2005, 07:24 AM
    Resident Loser
    If you want "...warmer and sweeter..."
    ...order a cup of tea with honey...

    "...the dealer told me change the speaker wire by Cardas or Kimber. That will make the sound a lot better..."

    Why might he say such a thing?...he doesn't just happen to sell them does he?

    After their voicing or 'sonic signature", the loudspeaker's location...and the acoustic environment they work in...have the most impact on the sound perceived...changing wires will not have any degree of realizing your goal.

    Wires will not increase bass response; some "designs" MAY,however, have an adverse effect on higher frequencies which can affect one's perception of the overall sound..."low-end details" have little to do with bass response, per se...but why use wires as a tone control, when gear with tone controls is readily available?

    jimHJJ(...Home Depot sells some extension power cords that have gotten positive press as speaker wiring in some circles...)
  • 04-05-2005, 05:57 PM
    Woochifer
    I'm with RL and some of the others, the cable selection will not change the bass. As you go further into the bass frequencies, the room dimensions progressively take over as the most important factor in determining what you hear. The boundary effects created by the room will boost and reinforce the low frequencies, and this effect increases in amplitude and frequency as the room dimensions get smaller. Nothing magical about this effect, it's just physics at work.

    If you want better bass, invest your money in some decent measuring tools like a SPL meter and test tones, or RTA software. The best improvement in the bass can often occur by just repositioning the speakers relative to the seating position, and doing in-room response measurements can help guide you in that process. Other things to look into would include room treatments, which generally produce far more audible and measureable benefit than upgrading the cables, particularly in the bass.
  • 04-09-2005, 10:54 PM
    dung0981
    hi
    The stereophile magazine they recommanded use speaker cable, which will make the sound deep, and warm. Some of them like monster cable, audioquest.. make the sound bright and thin. Is it True???
    Some one can give me advise what kind the cable do i need for my system? Warm or bright??? My speakers have bi-wire, Do i need to buy bi-wire cable ? or just use the clip?
  • 04-10-2005, 09:43 AM
    A-Audiophile
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dung0981
    hi
    The stereophile magazine they recommanded use speaker cable, which will make the sound deep, and warm. Some of them like monster cable, audioquest.. make the sound bright and thin. Is it True???
    Some one can give me advise what kind the cable do i need for my system? Warm or bright??? My speakers have bi-wire, Do i need to buy bi-wire cable ? or just use the clip?

    If you amplification supports your bi-ampable speakers then by all means bi-amp. But if your going to run 2 ends of a bi-amp speaker wire to a single post on your amp then your just adding extra ga.

    I use AQ Gilbralter speaker cables and I would say they are hardly bright or thin sounding...neither are they warm. What you want in neither a bright or a warm cable in any regards IC or speaker. You want a cable that can get out of the way of the signal it is carrying and not leave a sonic mark.

    I use AQ King Cobra IC's and I find that them as well as my speaker cables leave no sonic trace on my signal. Having compared them to Kimber, XLO, Cardas....I would consider Monster to be sub-grade.
  • 04-10-2005, 11:21 AM
    RobotCzar
    Dear Dung,

    I have never heard typical length cables make any difference in sound quality in a home audio system, I have heard corroded connectors cause increased distortion and noise.

    You need to consider that there is no evidence or theoretical reason to believe that cables have a significant audible affect on your system. I would use the $300 to buy more music or to get the SPL meter that was recommended (it will help you get better sound much much more than alternative cables). I would also recommend using tone controls or an equalizer to deal with brightness problems rather than take some hit or miss recommendations that a cable will properly alter the frequency response of your system.
  • 04-12-2005, 09:45 AM
    Hairsonfire
    Where oh where is MTRYCRAFTS?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dung0981
    Hi all.
    I currently have Conrad johnson MF 2300A amp, Pair of B&W N803 and Audio research SP9.I like to taste a lot of bass. Now time to upgrade my cable .Can you please give me advise to select speaker cable and interconnect?
    Thank in advance :)

    Sir, cables and interconnects are not speakers. It makes me cringe when I hear people bestowing wires with sonic descriptions. As long as it is of sufficient quality you need not concern yourself with how it will make your source, amp, or speakers "sound." It's all marketing BS.

    Very respectfully,

    Mr. H. O. Fire
  • 04-12-2005, 08:03 PM
    risabet
    It's All Opinion!
    Dung,

    Many opinions on this and other boards claim wires makes no difference, I personally disagree with that position and after auditioning a few brands in my sytem, I chose the Audioquest "DiamondBack" IC's to go with my "Indigo's." I recommend that you find a dealer, friend, or anyone else that can let you audition cables in your own system on a long term basis and decide for yourself.
  • 04-13-2005, 05:50 AM
    Pat D
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hairsonfire
    Sir, cables and interconnects are not speakers. It makes me cringe when I hear people bestowing wires with sonic descriptions. As long as it is of sufficient quality you need not concern yourself with how it will make your source, amp, or speakers "sound." It's all marketing BS.

    Very respectfully,

    Mr. H. O. Fire

    Mtrycrafts can be found at Audioholics.com where the more knowledgeable management appreciates him.
  • 04-13-2005, 05:58 AM
    musicoverall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by risabet
    I recommend that you find a dealer, friend, or anyone else that can let you audition cables in your own system on a long term basis and decide for yourself.

    Totally agree - personal experience is the best teacher.
  • 04-13-2005, 06:33 AM
    Resident Loser
    No, no, no Pat...
    ...musn't say things like that 'round here...I recently discovered some folks take offense just because they THINK you are taking about them...replete with threats or implications thereof...

    Please pardon me Pat...as an aside and to whom it may concern: You seem to think I simply single out some folks on this site as being idiots...not entirely accurate...I think most folks on the planet are idiots...

    jimHJJ(..."...call me rep-re-hen-sible, call me in-de-fen-sible, call me mis-an-throp-ic toooo..."...)

    P.S. Oh, yeah BTW... to keep this post on topic...wire is wire and no one has yet proven otherwise...
  • 04-13-2005, 02:21 PM
    Mtbrider
    I believe that experimentation is part of any hobby. Of course, I'm making the assumption that this is a hobby for you(original poster). Why not go to Home Depot and purchase the orange and black HD14 extension cord.....approximately $12.00 for 50 ft.? Cut the ends off and make yourself a biwire set. Use all three wires, with one to the positive and two to the negative for each run. Listen! Do you like what you hear or not? The point is, for less than the price of a new CD, you've engaged yourself in the hobby and you've made the determination with your own ears! Nobody here can accurately tell you what you're going to hear.....or not hear. Your system is for your enjoyment and should not be result of what cable advocates or cable naysayers tell you. Try something different and decide for yourself!
  • 04-14-2005, 11:22 AM
    RobotCzar
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mtbrider
    I believe that experimentation is part of any hobby. Try something different and decide for yourself!

    This seeming harmless advice is based on a bunch of bad premises. Probably the worst one is viewing home audio as a tinkering hobby. Some things are perfectly fine to tinker with (like speaker placement) and others are very questionable. Why would your tinkering result in better performance than what has been engineered into a product? Sometimes, random tinkering might result in better performance, but it is much more likely that it will result in no difference or a decrease in performance.

    I and others have repeatedly stated why you can't just tinker than then listen for "improvements". It is scientifically invalid to do so as your expectations and other factors are likely to fool you. That is why controlled (e.g. blinded) testing is required. It is ridiculous to tell people to just listen--there are plenty of reasons why just listening won't work. Salesmen hope to hell that you just listen--especially to their rap.

    Consider the case from the past when a software product was offered to improve performance of the Windows OS. Millions of dollars of the product was sold. But, a whisle blower examined the code and found that the product was't doing anything. The company responded (much as high end audio fans do) that they had millions of "satisfied" customers--as if this were some kind of justification in itself. Well, if you, like other writers in this forum, are willing to pay for satisfaction whether or not it is based on reality is up to you. If its make you feel satisfied, or "hear" improvements, then who am I to tell you not to?

    On the other hand, it is quite different to pretend that what you are "hearing" has some objective reality and proceed to advise others about how this or that cable "improves brighness" or other such nonsense. If you want to believe for fun, fine, but when you get carried away enough to pretend that what you hear is anything other than "what satisfies" then there will be people who object until they are censored by people trying to sell this stuff (as has happened in this forum).





    d
  • 04-14-2005, 02:06 PM
    ericl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RobotCzar
    This seeming harmless advice is based on a bunch of bad premises. Probably the worst one is viewing home audio as a tinkering hobby. Some things are perfectly fine to tinker with (like speaker placement) and others are very questionable. Why would your tinkering result in better performance than what has been engineered into a product? Sometimes, random tinkering might result in better performance, but it is much more likely that it will result in no difference or a decrease in performance.

    I and others have repeatedly stated why you can't just tinker than then listen for "improvements". It is scientifically invalid to do so as your expectations and other factors are likely to fool you. That is why controlled (e.g. blinded) testing is required. It is ridiculous to tell people to just listen--there are plenty of reasons why just listening won't work. Salesmen hope to hell that you just listen--especially to their rap.

    Consider the case from the past when a software product was offered to improve performance of the Windows OS. Millions of dollars of the product was sold. But, a whisle blower examined the code and found that the product was't doing anything. The company responded (much as high end audio fans do) that they had millions of "satisfied" customers--as if this were some kind of justification in itself. Well, if you, like other writers in this forum, are willing to pay for satisfaction whether or not it is based on reality is up to you. If its make you feel satisfied, or "hear" improvements, then who am I to tell you not to?

    On the other hand, it is quite different to pretend that what you are "hearing" has some objective reality and proceed to advise others about how this or that cable "improves brighness" or other such nonsense. If you want to believe for fun, fine, but when you get carried away enough to pretend that what you hear is anything other than "what satisfies" then there will be people who object until they are censored by people trying to sell this stuff (as has happened in this forum).

    There's quite a lot of snake oil and bs marketing in audio, no doubt, and a fair amount of skepticism is important in order to preserve your wallet and sanity.
    But I think to go so far to say that you can't believe anything you hear until it is proven by a dbt seems pretty reactionary and as ridiculous as the claims of some of the worst snake oil vendors out there. If you apply this idea to the rest of the world around you, then you can't trust any perceptions whatsoever, in which case, Robot, you shouldn't have a drivers license. Your perceptions are not trustworthy, as you have no real proof of that what you are seeing on the road is real. You are therefore a threat to other drivers. Please stop driving immediately. Better yet, go check yourself into a mental ward, before it's too late. We can't take the risk of you mistaking one of your children for a piece of chicken, and chopping up and BBQing poor little Robot Czar Jr. :D

    Eric
  • 04-14-2005, 06:48 PM
    musicoverall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ericl
    But I think to go so far to say that you can't believe anything you hear until it is proven by a dbt seems pretty reactionary and as ridiculous as the claims of some of the worst snake oil vendors out there. If you apply this idea to the rest of the world around you, then you can't trust any perceptions whatsoever

    My point exactly. Sometimes you have to simply accept that your perceptions are real. Otherwise, you spend too much time testing and too little time living. On the other hand, what I think RC is saying is that my perceptions won't necessarily be yours so it's rather pointless to suggest that the cables I use in my system will sound the same to you in yours. I think that's a perfectly valid statement anyway since I think cables are system dependant.
  • 04-15-2005, 09:18 AM
    RobotCzar
    Sorry, guys--your straw men do not work. The suggestion is not that you don't use your ears, the problem is when people say JUST listen, suggesting that listening is all that is required or some kind of gold standard.

    Listening, like all our senses is fairly reliable for avoiding chickens in the road, but not relliable at all for judging small or precise differences. Or sensory system is relative (existing conditions and context affect what we see), biased (including based on what we expect and feel), and designed for what usually works for survival--not good judging fine gradations of audio fideltiy (or "goodness").

    Actually, when one considers accident rates, one might question whether ericl should believe his eyes in all situations. He had better look twice and keep is mind on the task or he many not see that semi comming at him. That would be a real loss to the audio community. The loss is humor alone would be incalcuable.
  • 04-15-2005, 10:02 AM
    ericl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RobotCzar
    Sorry, guys--your straw men do not work. The suggestion is not that you don't use your ears, the problem is when people say JUST listen, suggesting that listening is all that is required or some kind of gold standard.

    I don't think its a gold standard. People usually always caveat their statements. with in my system, in my room, in my opinion.. I think we're pretty much in agreement in making statements of fact based on experiences which are so context-dependent is silly.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RobotCzar
    Listening, like all our senses is fairly reliable for avoiding chickens in the road, but not relliable at all for judging small or precise differences. Or sensory system is relative (existing conditions and context affect what we see), biased (including based on what we expect and feel), and designed for what usually works for survival--not good judging fine gradations of audio fideltiy (or "goodness").

    Good point, I agree that its pretty much impossible (for me anyway) to distinguish small differences in sound quality, which is why i usually don't buy into tweaks and such, or listen for small differences. I listen for big differences. I usually use friends and the girlfriend to verify this stuff. If they notice something, then it worked. But to say that tinkering is invalid until dbt proven is just goofy. Who says that tinkering cannot produce those large differences that you say are discernible? At what point does a small difference become a large difference? I assume you've got some science behind the answer to that question..

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RobotCzar
    Actually, when one considers accident rates, one might question whether ericl should believe his eyes in all situations. He had better look twice and keep is mind on the task or he many not see that semi comming at him. That would be a real loss to the audio community. The loss is humor alone would be incalcuable.

    That just may happen, the way I drive. Keep praying, i heard its proven to work :D ... one less person in audio who doesn't take audio or himself so seriously! But on the other hand, they wanted to hire ToddB to this job, before i applied.. :eek:

    cheers
    eric