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  1. #26
    Forum Regular Tony_Montana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    Aaahhh........ Mr. Montana throws another turd into the meaingless cable-punchbowl to provoke another useless catfight. I suppose this IS a form of entertainment.....?
    Of course it is...at the expense of fence sitters

    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    PC has changed profoundly over the years. He has accepted the value and merit of DBT listening. So, he has changed more so, ready to fall
    Yes, I do agree that PC has changed over time, but he hasn't commit himself to either side completely. But he do like to take on Jon and Curl anytime opportunity present itself. and I guess we can commend him on that

    Quote Originally Posted by PCtower
    All of that stuff was from prior posts. I just wanted to give Tony a fighting chance to trip me up, so I just cut and pasted with abandoned and hoped for the best.
    There is no way I am going to fall for that PC. I am already frustrated trying to figure out why my post was deleted at CA today

    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax
    I realize sighted listening can be unreliable, but then I'm not convinced blinded listening is reliable. Is it unscientific to challenge the validity of blinded listening tests?
    I am also not convinced that blind listening is reliable also, especially if we talking about subtle changes. Memeory is still involve in DBT testing, and that is unreliable at best. IMO instantaneous switching between cables might be the best way to evaluate them, even if the results are very subtle

    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    Let's suppose (hypothetically) that scientists proved that a previously unmeasured form of transient intermodulation distortion and phase shifting was audible in some speaker wires, less audible or not audible at all in others and was directly related to cable capacitance and nothing else, not purity of copper, geomentry of conductors, or metalurgy of conductors.
    Then they would test all low capacitance cables, rate them for their improvements, publish their results in AES, and engineers worldwide would begin selecting wire based on cable capacitance. Manufactures of wire like Belden would develop and market special low capacitance wire specifically for use with loudspeakers and that would become the accepted way to install sound systems.
    You know very well that it will not work even if it was implemented. Yeasayer's argument of every different wires sound different with every system will be their ace in the hole, and argument will continue as it was previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    When people claim that 12 gauge zip cord is inferior to one of those more expensive cables, then it has to be shown that the zip cord is altering the signal in an audible manner.
    Here is a question for Mike:If some wire out there proved to be superior to zip cord electrically only (not audible), would you recommend that wire over a zip cord?

    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron
    Geeze, again..you post at 5:00..till tomorrow
    You and your 5 PM excuse! Couldn't you for once forget about going to a bar with your girl after 5 PM and finish the conversation you started

    By the way John, I have never consider you a fence sitter. You have discredited too many of yeasayers's cable "knowledge" to be a fence sitter
    "Say Hello To My Little Friend."

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK

    BTW, my post proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bigfoot exists. He uses Transparent cabling, in case you were wondering.

    No wonder he is so elusive
    mtrycrafts

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Way too long of a post, couldn't finish it.

    I couldn't either.

    All of that stuff was from prior posts. I just wanted to give Tony a fighting chance to trip me up, so I just cut and pasted with abandoned and hoped for the best.

    So you took the easy way out but wanted us to read it all? I need another case of
    Tylenol
    mtrycrafts

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax
    Is it unscientific to challenge the validity of blinded listening tests?
    It is today as it has been accepted as the only objective way to identify such small differences. But, if you challenge it, better bring a suitcase full of data why you think it may not be reliable.
    mtrycrafts

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    "If thousands of cancer patients claimed some folk remedy was curing them, you would be crazy not to take it seriously."

    They did! In the 1960s it was a drug called Crebiacin.
    It happened again in the 1980s with a drug called Laetrile.
    (these may not have been spelled correctly)

    Not only didn't they work on the people who swore they had been saved but many thousands of other people who might have otherwise been saved lost their lives or additional time that they might have had with their families because they didn't seek whatever real help there was. Neither drug was ever FDA approved and both times there was a loud public outcry that "the medical establishment" was withholding valuable cures from the public. Some people who were desparate smuggled them into the US illegally while others left for foreign countries to get them. Just more hoaxes and scams preying on the hopes and fears of people who have no real knowledge and will believe whatever someone convincing enough can sell them. If the government couldn't or wouldn't shut those people down immediately, they aren't going to be wasting much time, effort and money on audiophile cables unless and until they decide its time to get around to it. A very low priority for them.

    BTW, you can easily track down hundreds if not thousands of current medical and other porduct hoaxes on the internet by doing a google search.
    The medical community did take Laetrile seriously. It wasn't summarily dismissed as snakeoil. Clinical trials were conducted, and Laetrile did not show anticancer activity in the trials. But the dummies in medicine needed to do trials to find that out. A smart guy like you could have saved everyone a lot of trouble from the start just by declaring Laetrile useless. Who needs all that wasteful research when you already know everything!

    I never heard of Crebiacin. That car tune-up method in your previous post was interesting. Have you ever tried cursing and kicking machines when they don't behave?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    You are onto the crux of the matter. A perfect cable would be 100% neutral and pass the signal from A to B along its length without any alteration of the signal whatsover.

    The problem is that it is proposed that wire like 12 gauge zip cord can also do this or at least to a degree that any change to the signal would not be audible. When people claim that 12 gauge zip cord is inferior to one of those more expensive cables, then it has to be shown that the zip cord is altering the signal in an audible manner. I suppose this can be shown in rediculous circumstances like a thousand foot long cable or some extreme amplifier output impedences or weird speakers. But for most of us with mid or even hi fi amps and speakers with magnetic voice coils and 8, 6 or 4 ohm impendences, the math doesn't support it and there certainly have been no demonstrations to support it either.
    Wireworld compares speaker cables with very short direct wire links, using a comparator box for switching. An amp is placed close behind each speaker for the direct link, which I guess is a few inches in length. A double blind comparison can be done between any speaker cable and this direct link.

  7. #32
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    " A smart guy like you could have saved everyone a lot of trouble from the start just by declaring Laetrile useless."

    Laetrile was an unproven drug. Many scientists and doctors said so all along just like they did with crebiacin. Some cynics said that the "medical establishment" didn't want to cure cancer because treating cancer was a very profitiable industry. Doctors and scientists were furious at this pointing out that they and those they loved the most get cancer too and that the one who found a magic bullet to kill cancer would probably win a nobel prize. But some people who were desparate because their cancers were incurable or because they didn't trust "conventional medicine" for one reason or another went to this alternative medicine route.

    Testing drugs is expensive and those which show no promise under a microscope generally don't get full trials becasue it is a huge waste of time and money. If laetrile got any testing at all it was to convince some very stupid people that they were not only wasting their money but playing with life and death. Nobody is going to protect know-it-all audiophiles from rejecting what the "engineering establishment" says. Nobody has died buying the wrong speaker wire although from the price tags on some of it, you can go broke. But that's your problem.

  8. #33
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    That's a shunt. Perhaps they are doing what I said in my post. What have their results been? BTW, any difference shows the inadequacy, not the advantages of the wire.

  9. #34
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Tony:



    I have lost the link, but a report was published several months ago in which psychologists were able to imprint in the memories of approximately one-third of the participants vivid memories of having seen Bugs Bunny at Disneyland. Well, we all know that Bugs Bunny never appears at Disneyland, and yet the implanted memories were as real to these people as any memory.
    You must be looking for this:

    http://www.washington.edu/newsroom/n...e/k061101.html

    -Bruce

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    You must be looking for this:

    http://www.washington.edu/newsroom/n...e/k061101.html

    -Bruce
    Thanks. That's it.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    So you took the easy way out but wanted us to read it all? I need another case of
    Tylenol
    I'm reciting 15 Hail Mary's as I write.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    You and your 5 PM excuse! Couldn't you for once forget about going to a bar with your girl after 5 PM and finish the conversation you started
    Nope. That will not happen..ever...I do indeed have a life...(even geeks have lives..some just don't realize it..)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    By the way John, I have never consider you a fence sitter. You have discredited too many of yeasayers's cable "knowledge" to be a fence sitter
    I have indeed found fault with a lot of the garbage that Risch, Curl, and many cable vendors spout as the "reasons" cables sound different.

    However, I have also found fault with some of the stuff posted by the alternate camp..

    The significant difference I have noticed? Risch/Curl et al are basing their reputations on the hairbrain explanations that are provided, most of which are trivially shown to be incorrect with simple analysis. But, some of it is NOT...not trivially shown as wrong, and also not trivially shown as right.

    The nays, otoh, are coming at it from a science based POV. As I occasionally have pointed out (which, btw is also consistent with what JR occasionally says)...as SOTA of wires and theories advance, the science will of course change..so, to absolutely state a science fact...well, sometimes those facts change..

    What I prefer is a consistent, testable, approach to the problem..and civility along the way. I have found that it on occasion requires I be uncivil towards them..I hope that someday they realize that is a reaction..not a stimulus.

    So, I am indeed a fence sitter, and do not consider that as a bad thing..

    Cheers, John

  13. #38
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    Here is a question for Mike:If some wire out there proved to be superior to zip cord electrically only (not audible), would you recommend that wire over a zip cord?
    Well that depends on what the person was looking for. Any time I make a recommendation that is not based on performance, then I am recommending a look or feel for prestige or the jewelry effect.

    Or in some cases, a superior performing item may not be capable of being used today but future improvements may make it beneficial. For example, somebody could buy and HDTV today even if they don't have any HDTV sources.

    But getting back to cables, a superior cable to zip (electrically) could fit that category if there was a new type of speaker invented that was not voice coil or electrostatic and benefitted from this superior cable.

    But as of today, I would say stick with the zip cord for now.
    Friends help friends move,
    Good friends help friends move bodies....

  14. #39
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    Right, in a comparison of different cable models, the one sounding most like the short link or shunt would be the most neutral. Wireworld offers a free demo CD comparing the short link with several speaker cables, including some from their competitors.Each track is the same song through a different set of cables. Unfortunately, each track begins with a brief announcement identifying the cable model, which prevents easy double-blind comparisons. I ran out of patience listening to the CD when I couldn't be sure I heard a difference between the short link and any other cable.

    Free copies of the CD may still be availabe. I got mine by calling Wireworld at 954-680-3848.

  15. #40
    Forum Regular Tony_Montana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    But getting back to cables, a superior cable to zip (electrically) could fit that category if there was a new type of speaker invented that was not voice coil or electrostatic and benefitted from this superior cable.

    But as of today, I would say stick with the zip cord for now.
    I may have to say that I do not necessary agree with that statement

    If there are better material out there such as better insulator/dielectric, or better construction and geometry that have [confirmed] electric benefits (and not necessary audible), then the consensus would be to use it. But of course there is always a big gap between theoretical benefits and cost/spending ratio. And that might the thorn among roses here

    Quote Originally Posted by Okiemax
    Wireworld offers a free demo CD comparing the short link with several speaker cables, including some from their competitors.Each track is the same song through a different set of cables.
    That is an interesting idea. But would it really work. The recording and playback process might color the original results
    "Say Hello To My Little Friend."

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    I'm reciting 15 Hail Mary's as I write.

    Ok, just no more sinning
    mtrycrafts

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