Cable Delusions

[RobotCzar]

This is one of my infrequent messages to this forum. I just like to drop in and let any newcommers who are reading this stuff know that threre are some inconvenient facts that get in the way of the audiophile love fest. Let's look at a few statements from a post in this forum:

"There is lots of methadology concerning double blind testing."
Well, there is lots of methadology concerning any...method. Is this at all sensible?

"There are those who have problems with the concept of double blind testing."
There are those who "have problems" with the Earth being round. Those people do not include scientists and judges, as double blind testing is REQUIRED in many scientific testing protocols and is often required to resolve product claims in a court of law.

"Most of the time double blind testing is used to reinforce the objectivists contention that there is no difference between cables electronics or any thing else."
This statement has it backwards. DBT is used in testing ANY differences in perception and clearly shows that humans can make many subtle audio distinctions (such as in volume level). Objectivists (or rationalists if you prefer) point out that those claiming to hear differences in everything have not demonstrated that they can in a scientific listening test. For example, audible differences in typical home cables have never been demonstrated in a scientifically controlled test. Given how big a difference many posters in this forum claim for cables, you think one of them could actually show that they can hear a difference without know in advance which cable is which. Show us, don't tell us what you hear.

"If anyone hears a difference in wires or cables the onus is not on them to prove it. It is up to those who disbelieve to disprove it."

This is not correct scientifically. The onus is on the person making the claim. I can say "I can jump to the moon" and the onus is not on you to disprove it. Note that one probably can prove scientifically and rationally that I can't jumpt to the moon, just as one can prove, by analysis and measurment, that one cannot possibly hear differences in typical home audio cables.

"If I am wishfully thinking so be it. It is my money and my ears that I have to satisfy. If it sounds better to me then it is. If it is my imagination I don't care."
This is, at last, the crux of the argument. People believe they will hear differences and they will (in their mind). But, when they do not have the cues to help their mind, they cannot. This is a well-established psychological principle which allows high-end sellers to make a lot of money. Another well-established principle is that people will not give up their false beliefs when faced with evidence they are wrong. So, I don't expect the people who regularly post here will change their minds, but some new people may be misled by the major deceptions present in the world of home audio.

Note that many people who post are eager to tell you what component are in their system. THAT is what high end is about--ego and one upsmanship. It is like owning jewelery. Such people are scientifically naive, but they can't help telling other what they should hear.

So, are you a person who wants to pay big money for illustions you make up in your mind, go right ahead-- become a high-end audiophool. If you want accurate home audio at a reasonable price, avoid places like this or any popular audio magazines.

[Bernd]

Are you the saviour of the newbie or after an arguement?
I do agree with some of your post, but it isn't right to generalise. And lets not forget that this is a hobby. If I have the money and want to buy an expensive cable, I will. I don't feel the need to have to prove anything. And here comes my qualifier- it has to justify it's cost to "my" ears. No-one elses. Am I interested in measurements. No. Will I try before I buy-absolutly always.
The best we can do is share our findings and experiences with fellow audio friends and let them decide for themselves.

Peace

Bernd

[JohnMichael]

Well you tell people to avoid AR and magazines but then you fail to advise them where to go to learn. So you are not helping.

As far as cables and other audio components what might have sounded best to us on initial purchase does not bring long term musical pleasure. We might choose the best sounding cable from a blind test only to find out that after several weeks the sound is grating.

I hear differences in cables but I am not concerned in proving that to you. It is a part of music reproduction with which I seem to be sensitive. I can not listen to most stranded cables for very long at a time. Other distortions I may not notice might drive someone else up the wall. Bright speakers and components can send me out of a room quickly.

I hope everyone can learn to trust their ears and buy what brings them musical pleasure. Just like the czar this is just an opinion and your own experiences matter more.

[JoeE SP9]

What I find interesting is the two buddies who I have infected with audiophilia both came to me asking about wires sounding different. This was after they had changed a cable and their wives had complained about the difference in the sound.
I gave them them both sides of the argument. My side being that everything can make things sound different and the objectivists side that any competently designed and constructed device or wire is indistinguishable from another. I even told them about double blind testing and the null results usually acheived. Their wives subsequently convinced them both to upgrade their interconnects and speaker cables.

[Bernd]

John Michael makes a very valid point and not for the first time.
An instant A-B comparison of cables is usualy useless as it does indeed take some time for the cable to integrate into ones system. I am certain that everytime you move your cables about, it takes again some time to have them settled in.Not day and night but certainly different. I have no measurements or scientific proof for this, just my ears. And that's good enough for me. I believe that whatever you do to your system has an effect on the re-produced sound. Some big some small. This makes it very vulnerable to Charlatans and Snake oil vendors.
"Trust your ears" is the best advice one can follow.

Enjoy the music

Bernd

[Fergymunster]

Thanks for your thoughts Robotczar.I thought I was the only one who has their sanity intact.My thinking is it is sheer madness that's going on in the power cord and power conditioner buisness.Most "audiophiles" claim it's a hooby.It's far worse,it's a full blown addiction.

[daviethek]

Thanks for your thoughts Robotczar.I thought I was the only one who has their sanity intact.My thinking is it is sheer madness that's going on in the power cord and power conditioner buisness.Most "audiophiles" claim it's a hooby.It's far worse,it's a full blown addiction.

It can be and usually is an expensive pre-occuupation. Its a hobby to someone who trys to build, rebuild or otherwise tweak to death some of his or her gear, no diferent than classic cars, or guns or the guy who drops a couple of grand on a fly rod that enables him to "feel" the cast better. Addiction, I'm not sure. That usually infers a harmful and self destructive behavior of which this is largely not.

[Fergymunster]

"sorry you're addicted"Yes,my current addition is cigarettes

[bacchanal]

I am certain that everytime you move your cables about, it takes again some time to have them settled in.Not day and night but certainly different. I have no measurements or scientific proof for this, just my ears.

So if I go and jostle your cables when you're in the other room, you'll notice? Your ears must be golden!

[superpanavision70mm]

It's all in your head if you are hearing differences just by moving the cables around a bit.

[Bernd]

So if I go and jostle your cables when you're in the other room

........................I'll spank your bottom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And bacchanal you can look forward to a weeks detention for that little outburst.

But more to the point. This old cable chestnut comes up ever so often. And frankly I do not care what somebody else hears or doesn't hear. In my opinion you need one of two things to appreciate this issue. One, a system that is revealing microdynamics with clarity and second the ability to listen for that. If you miss one of those you are unlikely to hear those changes. Very often the loud voices of doubt come from Budget or Best Buy system owners or from individuals who play background music or want to "shake the walls". Nothing wrong with that, and questioning is good. But just because one individual can't hear changes it doesn't mean that this is gospel. So enjoy whatever you listen to or hear.

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

Enjoy:

Cable Break-In
There are many factors that make cable break-in necessary and many reasons why the results vary. If you measure a new cable with a voltmeter you will see a standing voltage because good dielectrics make poor conductors. They hold a charge much like a rubbed cat’s fur on a dry day. It takes a while for this charge to equalize in the cable. Better cables often take longer to break-in. The best "air dielectric" techniques, such as Teflon tube construction, have large non-conductive surfaces to hold charge, much like the cat on a dry day.
Cables that do not have time to settle, such as musical instrument and microphone cables, often use conductive dielectrics like rubber or carbonized cotton to get around the problem. This dramatically reduces microphonics and settling time, but the other dielectric characteristics of these insulators are poor and they do not qualify sonically for high-end cables. Developing non-destructive techniques for reducing and equalizing the charge in excellent dielectric is a challenge in high end cables.
The high input impedance necessary in audio equipment makes uneven dielectric charge a factor. One reason settling time takes so long is we are linking the charge with mechanical stress/strain relationships. The physical make up of a cable is changed slightly by the charge and visa versa. It is like electrically charging the cat. The physical make up of the cat is changed by the charge. It is "frizzed" and the charge makes it's hair stand on end. "Teflon Cats", cables and their dielectric, take longer to loose this charge and reach physical homeostasis.
The better the dielectric's insulation, the longer it takes to settle. A charge can come from simply moving the cable (Piezoelectric effect and simple friction), high voltage testing during manufacture, etc. Cable that has a standing charge is measurably more microphonic and an uneven distribution of the charge causes something akin to structural return loss in a rising impedance system.
Mechanical stress is the root of a lot of the break-in phenomenon and it is not just a factor with cables. As a rule, companies set up audition rooms at high end audio shows a couple of days ahead of time to let them break in. The first day the sound is usually bad and it is very stressful. The last day sounds great. Mechanical stress in speaker cables, speaker cabinets, even the walls of the room, must be relaxed in order for the system to sound its best. This is the same phenomenon we experience in musical instruments. They sound much better after they have been played. Many musicians leave their instruments in front of a stereo that is playing to get them to warm up. This is very effective with a new guitar. Pianos are a stress and strain nightmare. Any change, even in temperature or humidity, will degrade their sound. A precisely tuned stereo system is similar.
You never really get all the way there, you sort of keep halving the distance to zero. Some charge is always retained. It is generally in the MV range in a well settled cable. Triboelectric noise in a cable is a function of stress and retained charge, which a good cable will release with both time and use. How much time and use is dependent on the design of the cable, materials used, treatment of the conductors during manufacture, etc.
There are many small tricks and ways of dealing with the problem. Years ago, I began using Teflon tube "air dielectric" construction and the charge on the surface of the tubes became a real issue. I developed a fluid that adds a very slight conductivity to the surface of the dielectric. Treated cables actually have a better measured dissipation factor and the sound of the cables improved substantially. It had been observed in mid eighties that many cables could be improved by wiping them with a anti-static cloth. Getting something to stick to Teflon was the real challenge. We now use an anti-static fluid in all our cables and anti-static additives in the final jacketing material. This attention to charge has reduced break-in time and in general made the cable sound substantially better. This is due to the reduction of overall charge in the cable and the equalization of the distributed charge on the surface of conductor jacket.
It seems there are many infinitesimal factors that add up. Overtime you find one leads down a path to another. In short, if a dielectric surface in a cable has a high or uneven charge which dissipates with time or use, triboelectric and other noise in the cable will also reduce with time and use. This is the essence of break-in
A note of caution. Moving a cable will, to some degree, traumatize it. The amount of disturbance is relative to the materials used, the cable's design and the amount of disturbance. Keeping a very low level signal in the cable at all times helps. At a show, where time is short, you never turn the system off. I also believe the use of degaussing sweeps, such as on the Cardas Frequency Sweep and Burn-In Record (side 1, cut 2a) helps.
A small amount of energy is retained in the stored mechanical stress of the cable. As the cable relaxes, a certain amount of the charge is released, like in an electroscope. This is the electromechanical connection.
Many factors relating to a cable's break-in are found in the sonic character or signature of a cable. If we look closely at dielectrics we find a similar situation. The dielectric actually changes slightly as it charges and its dissipation factor is linked to its hardness. In part these changes are evidenced in the standing charge of the cable. A new cable, out of the bag, will have a standing charge when uncoiled. It can have as much as several hundred millivolts. If the cable is left at rest it will soon drop to under one hundred, but it will takes days of use in the system to fall to the teens and it never quite reaches zero. These standing charges appear particularly significant in low level interconnects to preamps with high impedance inputs.
The interaction of mechanical and electrical stress/strain variables in a cable are integral with the break-in, as well as the resonance of the cable. Many of the variables are lumped into a general category called triboelectric noise. Noise is generated in a cable as a function of the variations between the components of the cable. If a cable is flexed, moved, charged, or changed in any way, it will be a while before it is relaxed again. The symmetry of the cable's construction is a big factor here. Very careful design and execution by the manufacturer helps a lot. Very straight forward designs can be greatly improved with the careful choice of materials and symmetrical construction. Audioquest has built a large and successful high-end cable company around these principals.
The basic rules for the interaction of mechanical and electrical stress/strain variables holds true, regardless of scale or medium. Cables, cats, pianos and rooms all need to relax in order to be at their best. Constant attention to physical and environmental conditions, frequent use and the degaussing of a system help it achieve and maintain a relaxed state.
A note on breaking in box speakers, a process which seems to take forever. When I want to speed up the break-in process, I place the speakers face to face, with one speaker wired out of phase and play a surf CD through them. After about a week, I place them in their normal listening position and continue the process for three more days. After that, I play a degaussing sweep a few times. Then it is just a matter of playing music and giving them time.

G.Cardas


Peace

Bernd

[Resident Loser]

...may be in order for the benefit of some of the site noobs...RobotCzar is a longtime (if infrequent) poster who has carried the same message...to wit: that there is a rational, objective POV to this hobby to which the hobby-noobs should be made aware of as an alternative to a steady diet of the questionable subjective and anecdotal a...er, audiopilia that has become prevalent...One whose sole support is based an a rather tenuous premise of allowing the ears to be the pre-eminent arbiter while completely disregarding the existence of outside influences impinging on the results achieved using this methodology...further supported by the constant use of psuedo-scientific, jargon-based "factoids" which have little or nothing to do with audio reproduction...or much else for that matter.

jimHJJ(...but golly gee, they sure sound convincing...)

[jneutron]

Enjoy:

Cable Break-In....

My goodness.

It's not the cables breakin in.. It is you.

Your long post, wow..I do not know where to start with the corrections, there are so many misconceptions and flat out errors.

I guess the best thing, is to just explain that pretty much all of it appears to be the aftermath of an explosion in a physics thesaurus factory.

I'm not claiming there is no difference resulting from cables. Just that it is no longer acceptable to make up technical sounding explanations and expect people to believe them..

Cheers, John

[Bernd]

Hello Jim,
How are you doing? Spring has bloody disappeared again. I am waiting for snow.
Even so I agree with most of your post but what gets me is the" I know and you don't" attitude from "Both" sides of the argument.
You are right we are swamped with idiotic terminology and I felt that George Cardas' note stayed mostly clear of that, and made some very good points.
And newbies should be made aware of both sides and if you spent say $1000 on a first time system it makes no sense whatsoever to spent that amount again on cables. You will not hear it. But add a nought and then spent 10% of that on your cables and you will hear a change in presentation, or you should.
And as I mentioned I don't care what somebody else hears. For me the best benefit one can recieve or give is by sharing ones experiences on sites like this.

Peace

Bernd

[jneutron]

Hello Jim,
How are you doing? Spring has bloody disappeared again. I am waiting for snow.
Even so I agree with most of your post but what gets me is the" I know and you don't" attitude from "Both" sides of the argument.
You are right we are swamped with idiotic terminology and I felt that George Cardas' note stayed mostly clear of that, and made some very good points.
And newbies should be made aware of both sides and if you spent say $1000 on a first time system it makes no sense whatsoever to spent that amount again on cables. You will not hear it. But add a nought and then spent 10% of that on your cables and you will hear a change in presentation, or you should.
And as I mentioned I don't care what somebody else hears. For me the best benefit one can recieve or give is by sharing ones experiences on sites like this.

Peace

Bernd

OOOOHHHH, that explains it..

I saw the signat of cardas at the bottom...was thinkin you were he..and that you accidentally signed it..

Ya gotta attribute text to the author, guy....or mistakes will be made..

Sheesh..

Most of that collection of english words is simply a collection of cowchips..

Cheers, John

[Bernd]

My goodness.

It's not the cables breakin in.. It is you.

Your long post, wow..I do not know where to start with the corrections, there are so many misconceptions and flat out errors.

I guess the best thing, is to just explain that pretty much all of it appears to be the aftermath of an explosion in a physics thesaurus factory.

I'm not claiming there is no difference resulting from cables. Just that it is no longer acceptable to make up technical sounding explanations and expect people to believe them..

Cheers, John

Hi John,

That was writen by George Cardas. So you need to take that up with him and put him straight on his incorrect findings. I am sure you are the man to do just that. And I look forward on reading his response to your corrections.
I never read any of his findings and research until I had decided on which cables to buy. To much stuff being writen that means nothing to me. But my ears I trust, I am used to them and no doubting scientist will convince me that Black is White and White is Black.
However I am always open to hear and welcome personal findings on these matters.
As for breaking in....Terra Firma all the way. Hard earned bread does not leave my paw easily.

Peace

Bernd

[jneutron]

Hi John,

That was writen by George Cardas. So you need to take that up with him and put him straight on his incorrect findings. I am sure you are the man to do just that. And I look forward on reading his response to your corrections.

Yes, I realized that after you mentioned it to jim..

My DUH moment..

I've wasted my time in the past having dialogue with these "white paper" shovelers.

Let's face it, for them to back off of their ridiculous statements, is to remove the bulk of the market advantage they garner from those cowchip papers.

I do not expect them to retract their statements as that would impact them financially, and that is not what I am about.

I've poked and prodded for years now, on these various sites, providing accurate e/m gobbledeygook. But it is a learning process for these vendors. Let them learn at their rate, let the changes be slow..upheaval is not a viable process in my book, unless it is required.

Cheers, John

[Bernd]

Yes, I realized that after you mentioned it to jim..

My DUH moment..

I've wasted my time in the past having dialogue with these "white paper" shovelers.

Let's face it, for them to back off of their ridiculous statements, is to remove the bulk of the market advantage they garner from those cowchip papers.

I do not expect them to retract their statements as that would impact them financially, and that is not what I am about.

I've poked and prodded for years now, on these various sites, providing accurate e/m gobbledeygook. But it is a learning process for these vendors. Let them learn at their rate, let the changes be slow..upheaval is not a viable process in my book, unless it is required.

Cheers, John

I totaly accept and welcome your stance. However I would like to read a(ny) response to some of your doubts from the manufacturer on their claims. Will it happen-who knows. I still believe that Cardas is one of the more genuine guys. He could have used silver a long time ago and cash in even more, but he didn't, as the drawbacks are greater then the rewards. I think a lot is talked about what is in effect a small improvement to ones system and a very personal choice. And if another music lover likes to use bell-wire to connect his/her speakers and is happy, so be it. Maybe they know something that I, and many others, are missing.
Thanks for joining in and have a good one.

Peace

Bernd

[jneutron]

I totaly accept and welcome your stance. However I would like to read a(ny) response to some of your doubts from the manufacturer on their claims. Will it happen-who knows. I still believe that Cardas is one of the more genuine guys. He could have used silver a long time ago and cash in even more, but he didn't, as the drawbacks are greater then the rewards. I think a lot is talked about what is in effect a small improvement to ones system and a very personal choice. And if another music lover likes to use bell-wire to connect his/her speakers and is happy, so be it. Maybe they know something that I, and many others, are missing.
Thanks for joining in and have a good one.

Peace

Bernd

I went back and forth with two cable vendors a coupla years ago. I provided clear and concise corrections to the more blatent e/m errors, with my blessings to use it in their papers, they did not. And without explanation.

They didn't have to give any explanation, as I understood the position they are in. They need to live, they need to eat.

When their customers are better versed in what is real and what is not, they will simply adapt. When they find that they lose customers because of their white paper crapola, they will change their white paper. Simple. Market driven, and reality.

My desire is to both educate their customers, and advance this thing called "science"..

I cannot provide the dialogue I had with either. If they had wished, they could do so with my blessings. But I do not divulge private conversations without permission.

Cheers, John

[Bernd]

Thanks. I believe you and you have my respect for keeping private,private. And full marks for trying.

Peace

Bernd

[bacchanal]

........................I'll spank your bottom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No! Anything but that!

But seriously though...It's really a cost justification and system balance issue.

Think about TT cartridges and needles. Those things cost nothing to make, but they sell for $1000's.

The thing about audio is that high price tags don't necessarily always translate to better performance (to any given listener), but that doesn't mean that it will never bring greater performance.

For one $1000 cable you may just be paying for pretty packaging, for another you may get a quality product. Is there a difference, is it justifiable, does it integrate with your equipment? Only one person can figure these things out. The same goes for speakers and amps and anything else. If one really wants to talk about product performance, more time should be spent discussing how to become a more critical listener instead of discussing what this or that expert wrote or what this or that study said. Then agian, there is a balance between being a critical listener and knowing how to listen for enjoyment.

[Bernd]

No! Anything but that!

But seriously though...It's really a cost justification and system balance issue.

Think about TT cartridges and needles. Those things cost nothing to make, but they sell for $1000's.

The thing about audio is that high price tags don't necessarily always translate to better performance (to any given listener), but that doesn't mean that it will never bring greater performance.

For one $1000 cable you may just be paying for pretty packaging, for another you may get a quality product. Is there a difference, is it justifiable, does it integrate with your equipment? Only one person can figure these things out. The same goes for speakers and amps and anything else. If one really wants to talk about product performance, more time should be spent discussing how to become a more critical listener instead of discussing what this or that expert wrote or what this or that study said. Then agian, there is a balance between being a critical listener and knowing how to listen for enjoyment.

Well we have to think of another punishment then.

Very well put. And I agree with what you said. The critical listening has the ability to sometimes cross over with the listening for enjoyment. Again it's a learning process. To me anything that creates "wow" from the off is usually very tiresome in the long run.
As for packaging you are spot on. My Cables come in a clear plastic zip bag, and one sheet of printed paper and thats it. But I have seen some in hard wood boxes and silk lined. And of course I always said that high price does not equate great performance.

Peace

Bernd

[Resident Loser]

...one case in point I didn't have time to address earlier is the mention of "...play a degaussing sweep..."?????????????????

Now I purport to be no expert, I'll defer to our magnet-maven jneutron on that, but the only degaussing that I'm familiar with is re: tape recorders which require an electronic device and careful manipulation of said device to counter residual magnetism...also with CRTs which usually have an added bit of hardware to accomplish the same end on each power-up...generally speaking an electro-mechanical process/device...

If I am to believe the quote, there is a disc that somehow completly eliminates this manual process by sending a stream of 1s and 0s which, via a reconstituted signal within the audible spectrum, degauss? And degauss what in particular?

Does magnetism even have a frequency range? If so it ain't 20Hz-20kHz...Electromagnetic force is simply one of the four fundamental forces and the variant/hybrid we use and encounter with regularity is electrodynamics...

Signal traces on PCBs and wiring other is copper...the last time I looked copper, while a conductor, was a non-magnetic metal...yes, it's used in electromagnets, but the operative force is the varying signal that passes through it and it doesn't retain any charge that I'm aware of...after all, your loudspeakers would lock-up if that were the case as soon as a signal was applied...and if the conductor doesn't retain one, what chance does a dielectric material have...and I believe static electricity and rubbing balloons or yer cat's @$$ is a whole 'nother thing...so let's avoid that trip...or touch your cables once in a while, that should discharge 'em.

There was a regular poster here who said the white-coats at IBM were able to take a micro-photo of the sub-atomic thingies in your every-day, garden variety copper wire, they had cajoled and coerced into forming the letters I...B and M...under a strong magnetic field...perhaps under radioactive bombardment...in a vacuum...at zero degrees Kelvin...neat parlor trick, but since the environment is neither particularly practical nor naturally ocurring, it begs the question...

jimHJJ(...so what?...)

[Bernd]

Well Jim,
It is such an emotive subject and I am certainly no technical expert and am certain that there is a lot of sales patter flying about. All I know is that the Cardas Golden Reference works for me better than any other I have tried.
But is no good me arguing a point for all costs about something that only I have experienced, in my room,etc,etc.
And here is something else that is hard to explain I think. I play once week a "Densen -DeMagic" cd. It's a 3 min long mix of tones and here is what it does:

Quote-"The DeMagic cleans the entire signal path of magnetism which has been build up during playback, due to DC leakage and other influences on all the parts used in the audio components.This magnetism results in magnetic introduced distortion (MID), where the magnetic fields distort the audio signal. By removing the MID with the disc a much clearer, more dynamic, detailed and transparent sound emerges."Quote

It works. And believe me that something that costs me £15 (which does not brake the bank) and does not work would end up in the trash. But this disc really works. Can't tell you more than that and I will continue to use it .

Peace

Bernd