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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    I am an electronic engineer by training and trade, many things I was taught professionally seem to be simplifications of the true process. Other than allowing for heat build-up in the various active devices the EE community as a whole denies there is anything more complex going on. (They also say this about cables and many claim that any properly designed amp is indistuingisihable from any other well designed amp) My experience does not match these beliefs.

    Warm up and break in, to me at least, have quite similar sonic signatures (they certainly span quite different time frames), but the thing I usually hear is an increase in "ease" a difference of making the sounds without trying as hard. Probably a poor explanation, but that is mostly what I hear. The warmed up (or broken in) system is more relaxed, it still has great or even more detail but it doesn't have that stark outline like an over enhanced TV image, detail appears without excessive treble. Some cables initially seem to increase detail, but long term listening reveals them to be over-hyped and artificial, long term listening to cables like this for me produces listener fatigue.

    So the short answer is I don't know. The battery pack would in theory eliminate any power supply warm up, but we don't know whether or not power supply warm up matters.

    Is it possible to design truly great sounding equipment without using exotic overpriced parts? Vishay metal foil resistors on a glass substrate sound better to me (at about $10 each retail they damn well ought to), but an Ohmeter confirms that they have identical resistance to a common one penny metal film resistor. Capacitors with Teflon dielectric (mostly understood due to lowest dielectric absorbtion) usually sound best, but why should silver foil or copper foil sound better than aluminun foil? This as far as I know is not understood, There are some distortion tests that show the exotics have lower distortion, but no real explanation of why this should be true.

    When attempts are made to disuss these effects, inevitably some one will drown out the discussion with shouts of "where's the proof?" "You're all buying snake oil, you must be stupid". Obviously this person doesn't hear what most audiophles hear.
    I surly don't understand your insight and your technical jargon fully.Nonetheless,thanks for the responce as I'm very content with my cable.

  2. #52
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    For me the difference between various cables is often easy to hear and just as often difficult to describe I appologize for any jargon, did not mean to act in any way superior or necessarily knowledgable for that matter.

    As to insight, I guess my ears work. Mostly that's what's needed.

    Many audiophiles seem to share the feeling that the really expensive stuff is better sounding and that we can't quite come to terms with the cost. My favorite interconnect cable retails at near $900. (I doubt if it's the best there is, I refuse to consider spending even more) and somehow it seems high. The holy grail of course is a great cable for 50 bucks. After all, that's how much a decent cable is in the mass market store costs, how much differnce can there be?

    Many of us have similar problems with the electronics, we know the number of units sold is low, but so is the parts count. Since many of the small specialty houses go out of bussiness regularly I doubt if the myth that's it all a scam is true, but still, $5,000 for a decent amp?

    The problem is that $5,000 amp just plain sounds better than the $500 mass market model that as often as not actuallly has better specs. It's no wonder that so many cry foul and suspect we are making it up.

    All of this promted my friend and I to design and build our own speakers, why pay all that markup? So here we are 7 years later with an investment of over $8,000 in parts and we are almost done. Suddenly speakers that sound as good as ours selling for around $20,000 and higher just don't seem unreasonable anymore. Still, 20 grand for a wood box with some stuff in it? Nowhere near as complex as a car, but you can buy a new car for that same $20 grand.

    Music is about a performance by artists, no one disputes that you can tell Beethovens 9th on a $10 radio but the differences between one performance and the next, between this artist and that artist, between one instrument maker and another. All this is there in the music, the better equipment allows the listener to experience these details. When it all works it is truly a deep emotional experience. For me worth the cost, but this doesn't stop me from wanting even more performance for even less money.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    For me the difference between various cables is often easy to hear and just as often difficult to describe I appologize for any jargon, did not mean to act in any way superior or necessarily knowledgable for that matter.

    As to insight, I guess my ears work. Mostly that's what's needed.

    Many audiophiles seem to share the feeling that the really expensive stuff is better sounding and that we can't quite come to terms with the cost. My favorite interconnect cable retails at near $900. (I doubt if it's the best there is, I refuse to consider spending even more) and somehow it seems high. The holy grail of course is a great cable for 50 bucks. After all, that's how much a decent cable is in the mass market store costs, how much differnce can there be?

    Many of us have similar problems with the electronics, we know the number of units sold is low, but so is the parts count. Since many of the small specialty houses go out of bussiness regularly I doubt if the myth that's it all a scam is true, but still, $5,000 for a decent amp?

    The problem is that $5,000 amp just plain sounds better than the $500 mass market model that as often as not actuallly has better specs. It's no wonder that so many cry foul and suspect we are making it up.

    All of this promted my friend and I to design and build our own speakers, why pay all that markup? So here we are 7 years later with an investment of over $8,000 in parts and we are almost done. Suddenly speakers that sound as good as ours selling for around $20,000 and higher just don't seem unreasonable anymore. Still, 20 grand for a wood box with some stuff in it? Nowhere near as complex as a car, but you can buy a new car for that same $20 grand.

    Music is about a performance by artists, no one disputes that you can tell Beethovens 9th on a $10 radio but the differences between one performance and the next, between this artist and that artist, between one instrument maker and another. All this is there in the music, the better equipment allows the listener to experience these details. When it all works it is truly a deep emotional experience. For me worth the cost, but this doesn't stop me from wanting even more performance for even less money.
    WOW,my system cost me around $1400 and I hear nor detect not a flaw in it's performance.Punch my name and you can see my concocted systems and see what you think.

  4. #54
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Damned if I know where to draw the line between elitism, listening skill and bragging rights.

    When I heard my first high end system I suddenly knew my Sansui amp and Servo Linear speakers weren't doing the job. I junked all the electronics and bought Denon individual pieces, 20 bit CD player, Denon pre and 110 Watt per channel power (kept the speakers). I was truly happy for about 6 months. That's when I made the mistake of revisiting my friend who had the high end system. Damn, the Denon stuff didn't cut it for me.

    So first I decided speakers were very important, I went to many stores and listened intently for something in the $2,000 range. I settle on some Dahlquist DQ32 a three way with a poly cone mid and silk dome tweeter, has a 10" woof that reaches 22Hz in the spec sheet. Not at all a bad speaker in retrospect. Long since relegated to my home theater where they do just fine.

    Next I jumped to a Conrad Johnson PV12L a tube linestage (no phono) and a C-J DAC2(?) then I bought a C-J MF2300A 240w/channel big brute of an amp. Folowed by another speaker upgrade, this time Martin Logan ReQuests. By now I've learned all about the internet and used gear.

    Now I'm solidly in the audio nut camp, spent loo much money only to discover that the ol' 12 gauge zip cord and gold plated interconnects just wouldn't do. So close to another grand later, Monster M1000 and Kimber speaker cable I do indeed have good sound. All my friends think I'm nuts, it takes most of them a few years to discover that my stuff does plain sound better especially for long listening sessions. Since all this there have been many other upgrades allways more money allways to my ears better sound.

    So if you are happy with $1,400 obviously there is nothing is wrong with that. Does it sound the same as my gear? Probably not. Can anyone hear the difference? Maybe not right away, but most would instantly if they were side by side.

  5. #55
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    When I heard my first high end system I suddenly knew my Sansui amp and Servo Linear speakers weren't doing the job.
    My wake up call that Julian Hirsch, et. al. were all start naked (a rather scary thought actually) came in 1974 when I first heard Magneplanar Tympani IIIs tri-amped with Audio Research electronics. Hey, this sounds waaaay more like music than AR-LSTs driven by a Phase Linear 400. Calling Julian from the great beyond, were you just deaf?

    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    Can anyone hear the difference? Maybe not right away, but most would instantly if they were side by side.
    Indeed it does take time and ideally, some training to discern all there is to hear. One question is whether or not that is important to someone. As for me, I take delight in hearing new information from a familiar piece of music. Hearing HP's various review systems since 1980 has recalibrated my frame of reference as to what is possible a couple of times. Visiting him has cost be a bundle over the years.

    Nice system, BTW. I've always liked C-J stuff beginning with the Reference One amp and naturally, the purity of electrostats. I do favor the full range flavor though.

    rw

  6. #56
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    That was then.

    Now; Pass Labs X250, homemade passive pre (Vishay S102 resistors and Shallco solid silver contact switch, Cardas silver wire and connectors) Mark Levinson No 36 and currently Olive Musica for CD transport/storage. Wire World Gold Eclipse and Kimber/Homebrew Audio Bi wire for speakers.

    Martin Logans (being rebuilt) to be replaced with homebrew 3 way speakers. These use all Skaaning designed drivers, Audio Technology Cequenze mid, Revelator Tweet and Scan Speak woof. Exotic caps and coils in insanely expensive crossover all wired with Cardas silver wire never mind homebrew speaker cables at far more money than one could believe. Silver and Rhodium lugs, litz wire, it never ends, but it does sound fine.

    Don't want to discuss total cash outlay, you can't make me.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    Damned if I know where to draw the line between elitism, listening skill and bragging rights.

    When I heard my first high end system I suddenly knew my Sansui amp and Servo Linear speakers weren't doing the job. I junked all the electronics and bought Denon individual pieces, 20 bit CD player, Denon pre and 110 Watt per channel power (kept the speakers). I was truly happy for about 6 months. That's when I made the mistake of revisiting my friend who had the high end system. Damn, the Denon stuff didn't cut it for me.

    So first I decided speakers were very important, I went to many stores and listened intently for something in the $2,000 range. I settle on some Dahlquist DQ32 a three way with a poly cone mid and silk dome tweeter, has a 10" woof that reaches 22Hz in the spec sheet. Not at all a bad speaker in retrospect. Long since relegated to my home theater where they do just fine.

    Next I jumped to a Conrad Johnson PV12L a tube linestage (no phono) and a C-J DAC2(?) then I bought a C-J MF2300A 240w/channel big brute of an amp. Folowed by another speaker upgrade, this time Martin Logan ReQuests. By now I've learned all about the internet and used gear.

    Now I'm solidly in the audio nut camp, spent loo much money only to discover that the ol' 12 gauge zip cord and gold plated interconnects just wouldn't do. So close to another grand later, Monster M1000 and Kimber speaker cable I do indeed have good sound. All my friends think I'm nuts, it takes most of them a few years to discover that my stuff does plain sound better especially for long listening sessions. Since all this there have been many other upgrades allways more money allways to my ears better sound.

    So if you are happy with $1,400 obviously there is nothing is wrong with that. Does it sound the same as my gear? Probably not. Can anyone hear the difference? Maybe not right away, but most would instantly if they were side by side.
    I sat on my systems for six months waiting to reap the benifits of the various combinations.I'm just now reaping the full benifits of these choices.Does your systems sound better than mine, I haven't the fooggist clue as it's my ears I have to please.For me my decsions have been finalized, so there is no more of me trying to better it by adding this that and the other thing.

  8. #58
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    If you have the disease (up grade itis) 6 months means nothing.

    Each time I buy a new piece, and yes it often takes 6 months to acustom me, my room, cables, break in etc. I think - wow this is it, boy have I got it made now. Then........

    Please, no possible insult or slight of anykind was meant. I envy people who own systems at the $100K up mark, if I had a spare $100K is this how I would spend it? Probably not.

    There is no argument about the diminshing returns, less and less improvement for more and more money. Each person needs to determine their own threshold of enough.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    If you have the disease (up grade itis) 6 months means nothing.

    Each time I buy a new piece, and yes it often takes 6 months to acustom me, my room, cables, break in etc. I think - wow this is it, boy have I got it made now. Then........

    Please, no possible insult or slight of anykind was meant. I envy people who own systems at the $100K up mark, if I had a spare $100K is this how I would spend it? Probably not.

    There is no argument about the diminshing returns, less and less improvement for more and more money. Each person needs to determine their own threshold of enough.
    I don't mean to belabour the point but I did extensive reaserch to arrive at the conclustions I did.I've been wondering around the internet and people for example are buying 4 or 5 different power cords to just get the right sound.This to me anyway seems foolish.For some if they don't here a difference within a two week period there off on another quest.This would only led me to the conclustion that in my opinon it is an addiction plan and simple.Perhaps I got lucky in my choices or no a little about electronics and buy the way I'm not in the poor house writing this.Just my 2 cents of course

  10. #60
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Belabor all you want, itís a public chat process and it wouldnít exist if all of us were in agreement.

    My good friend had a Kimber KCAG set of interconnects, these are pure silver by a well regarded company and get steadily good reviews, they were wonderful. I think they retail for about $450 per meter and they sounded great. So, life was great, right up to the time he upgraded his system. Now the KCAG which was as good as anything we'd heard, was not as good as stuff costing much more. The point is that his new better system revealed details that his lesser system could not. (ps his old system was worth around $7-9K not junk by any definition and it sounded good.)

    This is why there is an upgrade spiral, its not that youíre not good enough to hear these things but the system quality floor may hide things from you. So you buy one new piece, and suddenly that other component, perfectly good up till now is revealed as having some inadequacies or limitations.

    So the hunt begins, how do I improve my system without breaking the bank? This is a primary cause of the endless debates on these forums about how much money makes sense. What piece should I upgrade first? Should I spend the money on the room? Is SACD worth the cost, what about Vinyl? Most of us have financial limits smaller than our wish lists (just as true for camera nuts, car nuts or boating enthusiasts).

    In this hobby, itís harder because much of the debate covers subjective distinctions, equipment to measure how good music sounds (or even how accurate is the sonic copy) just doesnít exist and maybe never will because personal taste does enter the picture.

    So belabor happily along, all of it adds to the pool of shared knowledge I learn new stuff regularly and occasionally find myself eating a little crow. I usually drop of the forums in a snit, but Iím back in a couple of days.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    Belabor all you want, itís a public chat process and it wouldnít exist if all of us were in agreement.

    My good friend had a Kimber KCAG set of interconnects, these are pure silver by a well regarded company and get steadily good reviews, they were wonderful. I think they retail for about $450 per meter and they sounded great. So, life was great, right up to the time he upgraded his system. Now the KCAG which was as good as anything we'd heard, was not as good as stuff costing much more. The point is that his new better system revealed details that his lesser system could not. (ps his old system was worth around $7-9K not junk by any definition and it sounded good.)

    This is why there is an upgrade spiral, its not that youíre not good enough to hear these things but the system quality floor may hide things from you. So you buy one new piece, and suddenly that other component, perfectly good up till now is revealed as having some inadequacies or limitations.

    So the hunt begins, how do I improve my system without breaking the bank? This is a primary cause of the endless debates on these forums about how much money makes sense. What piece should I upgrade first? Should I spend the money on the room? Is SACD worth the cost, what about Vinyl? Most of us have financial limits smaller than our wish lists (just as true for camera nuts, car nuts or boating enthusiasts).

    In this hobby, itís harder because much of the debate covers subjective distinctions, equipment to measure how good music sounds (or even how accurate is the sonic copy) just doesnít exist and maybe never will because personal taste does enter the picture.

    So belabor happily along, all of it adds to the pool of shared knowledge I learn new stuff regularly and occasionally find myself eating a little crow. I usually drop of the forums in a snit, but Iím back in a couple of days.
    Look,I'm just cranky so I'm not after you.I really don't know that much anyway so I'll leave it up to the professionals.Peace

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergymunster
    Look,I'm just cranky so I'm not after you.I really don't know that much anyway so I'll leave it up to the professionals.Peace
    Actually I owe you an apology.I was just frustrated about the power cord industry as there is not one more thing you could do to a power cord that already hasn't been done.As a beginner I had to navigate myself around on my own and hopefully the PC epidemic has reached it's peck or comming to a close.Again my apologies.

  13. #63
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    If that's your idea of being cranky, you are indeed a forum newbie, hell most disagreements contain more venom in the first word.

    No offense taken. Enjoy the hobby, love the music .

  14. #64
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    Julian Hirsch

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    My wake up call that Julian Hirsch, et. al. were all start naked (a rather scary thought actually) came in 1974 when I first heard Magneplanar Tympani IIIs tri-amped with Audio Research electronics. Hey, this sounds waaaay more like music than AR-LSTs driven by a Phase Linear 400. Calling Julian from the great beyond, were you just deaf?


    Indeed it does take time and ideally, some training to discern all there is to hear. One question is whether or not that is important to someone. As for me, I take delight in hearing new information from a familiar piece of music. Hearing HP's various review systems since 1980 has recalibrated my frame of reference as to what is possible a couple of times. Visiting him has cost be a bundle over the years.

    Nice system, BTW. I've always liked C-J stuff beginning with the Reference One amp and naturally, the purity of electrostats. I do favor the full range flavor though.

    rw
    I seem to recall a quote from sometime back - something like "Julian Hirsch wasn't on the take - he was just deaf" which I believe stemmed from someone being asked if Julian was on the take due to his constant "they all sound the same" stance.

    But I wonder if Julian and the et al you refer to weren't deaf at all - just predisposed.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergymunster
    as there is not one more thing you could do to a power cord that already hasn't been done..





    Quote Originally Posted by Fergymunster
    As a beginner I had to navigate myself around on my own and hopefully the PC epidemic has reached it's peck or comming to a close.
    Nah,that will not happen as long as you are sold amplifiers as they currently exist.

    John

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron






    Nah,that will not happen as long as you are sold amplifiers as they currently exist.

    John
    I've decided to keep my mouth shut as it's not worth my energy, as most times I'm usually low key.Thanks

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergymunster
    I've decided to keep my mouth shut as it's not worth my energy, as most times I'm usually low key.Thanks


    Your no fun.

    Enjoy

    Cheers, John

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron


    Your no fun.

    Enjoy

    Cheers, John
    LOL.thanks

  19. #69
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    Ok...

    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron


    Nah,that will not happen as long as you are sold amplifiers as they currently exist.

    John
    ...I'll bite...highlight some of the salient points re: PC/amp SOTA...

    jimHJJ(...Don't get too techie, I'm only a HS grad w/ a semester of higher ed...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...I'll bite...highlight some of the salient points re: PC/amp SOTA...

    jimHJJ(...Don't get too techie, I'm only a HS grad w/ a semester of higher ed...)
    1. The IEC connector housing is black...need I say any more??

    2. The chamfer on the male cannot be hard , min radius should be 20 mils.

    3. It needs to be able to rotate. Plus/minus 90 degrees, to accomodate which direction the faceplate is looking.

    4. Anodizing has to be type 3, 8 mils thick...and neon purple.

    5. Ya need a cable clamp next to the IEC, to hold the pc in place while you swing the amp over your head...during aggressive listening sessions.

    Noon, and you expect real answers??? I'm hungry... Sheesh, you must gotten hit on da head with a nail removing implement, no?? Any scars?

    Later...I'll (try) to get serious...stomach's growlin now, too loud..must obey..

    Cheers, John

  21. #71
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    How to start a thread war.

    1. Take any collection of 3 or more audiophiles.
    2. Poke at them with a sharp stick
    3. Stand back.

  22. #72
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    Say no more, say no more...

    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron
    1. The IEC connector housing is black...need I say any more??

    Cheers, John
    ...ignorant dolt that I am...of course the lampblack-based colorant has a high carbon content and we all know the troubles that can cause...virgin white is the only way to go...hmmm...maybe ABS...glass-filled epoxy?

    Any scars? Only the psychological ones...

    Is it that time already?...I tend to graze...a Powerbar here, piece o'fruit there...

    jimHJJ(...here a bite, there a bite...everywhere a bite bite...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...I'll bite...highlight some of the salient points re: PC/amp SOTA...

    jimHJJ(...Don't get too techie, I'm only a HS grad w/ a semester of higher ed...)
    1. Pull a 1Khz sine out of the output terminal with a shorted input...Measure the voltage that shows between the input ground, and the line cord ground at the outlet. Fix everything that causes that voltage.


    2. Short the input, force 1 ampere sine 1Khz between the input shield and the line cord ground pin at the wall socket. Fix everything that is allowing the amp to amplify that. That will eliminate the ability of the amp to pickup ground loop hum, haversine coupling, and music reverse feedthrough.

    3. Pull half the rated current from an output binding post, but do it DC.. Fix everything in the amp that is allowing haversine components to appear at the output.

    Then, fix the line cord.

    Once these steps are done, the difficult tests can be done.

    Cheers, John

  24. #74
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    I was curious to see for myself if the AQ DBS system was a fad or the real deal. I borrowed an AQ Hawk Eye digital co-ax cable from my local dealer and put it up against my AQ VDM-5 digital co-ax. The Hawk Eye is basically a VDM-5 with a battery pack so I thought this would be a fair test.

    Without getting into all the swapping in and out of cables I did, the end result in my system was that the Hawk Eye sounded better than the VDM-5. To put it simply the Hawk Eye delivered every ounce of information that was coming out of my Sony DVP-S9000ES DVD player and sent it to my Anthem AVM 30. If the Hawk Eye was delivering 100% of the signal, the VDM-5 was sending 95%. It was a close test but I definately head a difference between the two cables. The opening attack scene from Master and Commander was absolutely insane. With the Hawk Eye, I was in the middle of that ship being attacked. Just an awesome experience.

    I ended up keeping the Hawk Eye and use it for my DVD to Processor hook up. My VDM-5 got moved to my HD/PVR cable box. I'm still a little skeptical when it comes to AQ speaker cables with DBS, but at least with digital co-ax cables the Hawk Eye delivered the goods.

    Just my 2 cents...

  25. #75
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    Not trying to be argumentative...

    Quote Originally Posted by balloonknot32
    Without getting into all the swapping in and out of cables I did, the end result in my system was that the Hawk Eye sounded better than the VDM-5. To put it simply ***the Hawk Eye delivered every ounce of information that was coming out of my Sony DVP-S9000ES DVD player and sent it to my Anthem AVM 30.If the Hawk Eye was delivering 100% of the signal, the VDM-5 was sending 95%.*** It was a close test but I definately head a difference between the two cables. The opening attack scene from Master and Commander was absolutely insane. With the Hawk Eye, I was in the middle of that ship being attacked. Just an awesome experience.

    ...
    ...b-u-u-u-t....you know this (***) how? What was your basis for this quantification?

    Here is where we cross the line from objective, quantifiable evaluation to a subjective one, highly dependent on ABEs...

    jimHJJ(...and therein lies the rub...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

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