Alpha Core Goertz cables

[junkeroos]

What do you think of what Alpha Core had to say about their speaker cables?

http://www.alphacore.com/mispeaker.html

[Tony_Montana]

Well, they are good cables, but the objectives their cable trying to achieve can be had much cheaper.

They emphasis characteristic impedance of cable and how important it is to match it with speaker impedance. But truth of matter is that characteristic impedance of cable is not an issue with audio cables (speaker and IC cables). Speaker impedance will fluctuate wildly over audio range (going from 2 ohms to 16 ohms), and source impedance is usually less than 1 ohm. So trying to match a cable impedance with speaker and source impedance might be a little tricky.

Lower inductance and resistance that they also mentioned is good to have in a speaker wire. But there are several speaker wires out there (such as Canare 4s11) that not only have low inductance and resistance, but also are less susceptible to outside "noise". And they only cost about $1 a foot

[jneutron]

What do you think of what Alpha Core had to say about their speaker cables?

http://www.alphacore.com/mispeaker.html

Their product line, 6 cables....

Cable________Inductance_______Capacitance_______LC
______________nH/foot__________pF/per foot______Product


MI 1____________ 10_______________500___________5000

MI 2_____________6________________950___________5700

MI 3_____________4_______________1500___________6000

AG 1____________10_______________500___________5000

AG 2____________6________________950___________5700

AG 3____________4_______________1500___________6000



In contrast, My first double braid shows:


Mine V1_________9.75______________288___________2808

(needed some kind of fancy cable name)

The Goertz flat cable design is about 50% effective with respect to the double braid design, for the geometries they build. If I build a 4 nH wire, it will have 720 pf /foot, regardless of effective guage.

In addition, as they increase the spacing to reduce the capacitance, their L-C product will not remain constant, inductance will increase more quickly.

As for resistance to external noise, the low inductance of the Goertz wires means they are very good in that respect.

As to their waveforms: Why is their amp overshooting 20%????? I would have expected better..From the looks of their scope photos, they actually need the high capacitance to tame that bad amp..

Cheers, John

[mtrycraft]

Well, they are good cables, but the objectives their cable trying to achieve can be had much cheaper.

They emphasis characteristic impedance of cable and how important it is to match it with speaker impedance. But truth of matter is that characteristic impedance of cable is not an issue with audio cables (speaker and IC cables). Speaker impedance will fluctuate wildly over audio range (going from 2 ohms to 16 ohms), and source impedance is usually less than 1 ohm. So trying to match a cable impedance with speaker and source impedance might be a little tricky.

Lower inductance and resistance that they also mentioned is good to have in a speaker wire. But there are several speaker wires out there (such as Canare 4s11) that not only have low inductance and resistance, but also are less susceptible to outside "noise". And they only cost about $1 a foot

I am at a loss why they bring up transmission line theory parameters such as characteristic impedance? When the cable's lenght is 1/30 of wavelength, then it is important. Not in audio, in the home

I didn't find the price for them. How expensive are they?

[Tony_Montana]

I didn't find the price for them. How expensive are they?

Their lowest price one is $8/ft, and most expensive one is $70/ft, and the rest are somewhere in between.

Also, given that 1/30th of wavelength at 20khz is 1500 feet, then you are right. We shouldn't worry about characteristic impedance unless speaker wire length is going to be that long

[junkeroos]

Pricing:
http://www.alphacore.com/shop/enter.html

The cheapest is $33 for 4' pair of 14AWG wire plus $40 for terminations on both ends. Is 14ga enough for a 4' cable or should one go lower? It seems that more prefer at least 12ga wire.

So in short, Tony, the Goertz wires are pretty good and that Alpha-Core's approach to making excellent wire makes a lot of sense but you would rather buy the Canare 4s11 because they can achieve the same results without having to go through some hi-tech design and construction. I checked the prices for Canare and they pretty much cost the same.
http://stores.ebay.com/Cable-Solutio...isplayZ2QQtZkm

I'm really not very technical when it comes to sonics but I was curious about Alpha-Core's claims with regards to their design and construction. I am tempted to try their cables out with my B&W Nautilus 804s. There are a few other cable manufacturers I am curious about with their own unique approach in achieving the "ultimate cable" but i'll mention them later.

[Tony_Montana]

So in short, Tony, the Goertz wires are pretty good and that Alpha-Core's approach to making excellent wire makes a lot of sense but you would rather buy the Canare 4s11 because they can achieve the same results without having to go through some hi-tech design and construction.

The problem is that some of their high tech design and construction do not follow proven engineering practices. And they charge arm and leg for it. Constructing a cable that can transfer signal from amplifier to speaker faithfully is not hard to achieve, nor neither expensive.

For example, Goertz cable's brag about their cable's impedance matching capability. But matter of fact is that impedance matching don't mean a thing in audio signaling transferring. So here, you are paying for a feature that is of no use no matter what venders or reviews say about it.

I checked the prices for Canare and they pretty much cost the same.
http://stores.ebay.com/Cable-Solutio...isplayZ2QQtZkm

You looked at a wrong place. Here is a site that will sell 100 feet spool of Canara 4s11 for $100. But you have to terminate each end your self.
http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/speaker-cable.html

I'm really not very technical when it comes to sonics but I was curious about Alpha-Core's claims with regards to their design and construction. I am tempted to try their cables out with my B&W Nautilus 804s. There are a few other cable manufacturers I am curious about with their own unique approach in achieving the "ultimate cable" but i'll mention them later.

The "ultimate cable(s)" are the ones that are most transparent (minimum loss of signal). And for speaker cable to be most transparent, they will need to have low resistance, inductance, and Sound/Noise ratio. If a cable have those specifications, then it doesn't' mater if it cost $1 or $100. That cable is the "ultimate cable" and there are no better.

The best cables are soundless

[mtrycraft]

[]Pricing:
http://www.alphacore.com/shop/enter.html

The cheapest is $33 for 4' pair of 14AWG wire plus $40 for terminations on both ends. Is 14ga enough for a 4' cable or should one go lower? It seems that more prefer at least 12ga wire.[/b]

At 4 ft, 18 ga would be fine So would 14ga that costs $.30/ft or less.



I'm really not very technical when it comes to sonics but I was curious about Alpha-Core's claims with regards to their design and construction. I am tempted to try their cables out with my B&W Nautilus 804s. There are a few other cable manufacturers I am curious about with their own unique approach in achieving the "ultimate cable" but i'll mention them later.

You can try all the equivalent gauged cables in the world but there is still no evidence of sonic differences for any of them.

[FLZapped]

What do you think of what Alpha Core had to say about their speaker cables?

http://www.alphacore.com/mispeaker.html

This:

The result is a wire with a characteristic impedance that closely matches the impedance of loudspeakers. Alpha-Core's Goertz MI wire presents 2 to 4 ohms characteristic impedance as opposed to the 50 to 200 ohms presented by even the most expensive speaker cables.

This is false. At audio frequencies, the majority of the impedance of a speaker cable is dependant on it's series resistance and series inductance. Standard wire doesn't even approach this. If it did, the frequency rolloff would most certainly be audible. Further, almost all speakers have impedance excursions, due to various resonances, that can cause the impedance to range from a few 10's of ohms to 100 ohms.

Note the impedance curve in the chart on page 2:

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2206.pdf

PLease note the impedance curve on page 3:

http://www.electrovoice.com/electrovoice/EVfiles.nsf/lookup/EVI-15EDS/$File/evi-15-eds.pdf

The square root of the ratio L/C is termed Characteristic Impedance, and is a quality inherent in a cable, dependent on its geometry and materials, but not dependent on its length.

Yes, and no. At audio frequencies there is no fixed characteristic impedance, therefore, the apparent impedance is entirely dependant on length. See the following article:

http://bwcecom.belden.com/college/te.../ciocahalf.htm

I could go on and on, like why do they use a 12kHz square wave who's harmonics are ALL outside the audio band, but there is really no point; Their claims are bogus in the lead-in.

-Bruce

[junkeroos]

Like some guys, I'm one of those who prefer cables already assembled when I ordered. Apparently, i'm not much of a DIYer so i'm willing to pay for the time and effort a manufacturer put in to assemble their product and I'm sure they would do a better job than I could.

As for Alpha Core, based on the discussions, their theory of matching speaker impedance with their speaker wires is bogus and is therefore another marketing gimmick. However, the low inductance and flat geometry of their cable makes it very capable in achieving their goal of providing sonic improvement (or transparency). Another company, Electrofluidics, does the same thing but professional reviewers warns consumers of using it with some amplifiers i guess that goes the same for Alpha Core's:
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=2722
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=418

[Tony_Montana]

Like some guys, I'm one of those who prefer cables already assembled when I ordered. Apparently, i'm not much of a DIYer so i'm willing to pay for the time and effort a manufacturer put in to assemble their product and I'm sure they would do a better job than I could.

Most speaker cables do already comes assembled (such as the one I mentioned). All you have to do is strip the end, and you have either option of using a bare wire connection, or terminate each end with Banana or Spade connector which your local electronic stereo will carry for cheap. And most of them (such as Spade) can be crimped.

Flat or round design doesn't matter as long as cable's specifications are in check.

[junkeroos]

...
In addition, as they increase the spacing to reduce the capacitance, their L-C product will not remain constant, inductance will increase more quickly.

As for resistance to external noise, the low inductance of the Goertz wires means they are very good in that respect.

As to their waveforms: Why is their amp overshooting 20%????? I would have expected better..From the looks of their scope photos, they actually need the high capacitance to tame that bad amp..

Cheers, John

Alpha-Core is in fact aware of the high capacitance of their cable so they place a resistive load across the speaker terminals and provide a free "RC link" to remedy that problem:

http://www.alphacore.com/mifaq.html#stability

Don't know how much of that is gimmick.

[mtrycraft]

I could go on and on, like why do they use a 12kHz square wave who's harmonics are ALL outside the audio band, but there is really no point; Their claims are bogus in the lead-in.

-Bruce

So they look good at ultrasonic frequencies Most have no idea

[FLZapped]

So they look good at ultrasonic frequencies Most have no idea

Actually, if they have as high of an impedance as stated, they'll look bad everywhere due to the power loss in them.

-Bruce

[mtrycraft]

Actually, if they have as high of an impedance as stated, they'll look bad everywhere due to the power loss in them.

-Bruce

I thought they are very low inductance cables, high cap, hence the need for that strap?