Absurd

[pctower]

Do you guys realize how ridiculous this board really is?

Yes. Placebo effect is a known phenomenon and from a purely scientific viewpoint sighted listening tests are unreliable. All well and good.

BUT THIS IS A HOBBY, FOR GOD’S SAKE.

Anyone who describes his listening experiences here is immediately castigated. Which takes all the fun out of the hobby, except for those who get their jollies out of constantly criticizing others (which, of course, is why I hang out here so often).

Scientifically, it has never been proven that similar cables can sound different. I suppose that is true for a lot of similar components also. However, as an aside, I doubt that there has ever been any serious scientific attempt to test such things (other than speakers).

BUT, the experience of thousands of high end enthusiasts has led them to believe that there are differences. You can drone on all you like about placebo, marketing hype, ect. In the meantime there’s a whole bunch of intelligent, articulate people hanging out over at AA having a good time and enjoying their systems, their hobby and the camaraderie of the hobby. As someone mentioned, there is virtually no mention of CES at AR. Why should there be? Here all one needs to know is the location of the nearest Home Depot.

The boys over at AA are interested in equipment and what they believe equipment can do to enhance the enjoyment of music. They are not interested solely in music – otherwise they would post only on the recording boards. They don’t post here because this board has virtually nothing to do with what the hobby is for most who enjoy it.

You can rest comfortable in your self-anointed intellectual superiority and moral outrage at those who insist on enjoying something from a lay perspective, although I prefer to be reminded that true wisdom is possessing a healthy respect for how little we really know. Intellectual arrogance and an intellectual approach to a subject are not one and the same.

Or, as often is the case, you can read all kinds of claims and statements into this post that I am not making and spend the next year filing up the dead space here haranguing against statements and claims I have neither made nor implied.

Some people I’m sure enjoy spending their free time experimenting in their home-based chemistry lab, rather than simply picking those chemical based products that seem to work best for them for the use intended. Others apparently prefer home-based audio labs to listening rooms. To each his own.

Yes, human perception can be seriously flawed. But human experience and perception, occurring in a non-lab, non-controlled environment is the essence of life – without these perceptions and experiences impacting upon our consciousness, life as we know it would not exist. Reduced to its essence, human life is solely the experiences of our conscious mind – nothing more, nothing less.

We humans are on this planet with physical, mental and emotional capabilities that are the end result of evolution as it just happened to unfurl on this planet. That evolutionary process took place in a pre-industrial world, and now we must deal with the industrial world with capabilities designed for survival in the jungle.

Most will choose to go about enjoying life, using what capacities evolution has bestowed on them, without sweating the small stuff – such as constantly questioning whether their perceptions can be validated scientifically. Others will find joy in feeling superior to those Neanderthal-like masses.

[skeptic]

[QUOTE=pctower]Do you guys realize how ridiculous this board really is?

Yes.

BUT THIS IS A HOBBY, FOR GOD’S SAKE.

The boys over at AA are interested in equipment and what they believe equipment can do to enhance the enjoyment of music.

You can rest comfortable in your self-anointed intellectual superiority and moral outrage at those who insist on enjoying something from a lay perspective, although I prefer to be reminded that true wisdom is possessing a healthy respect for how little we really know. Intellectual arrogance and an intellectual approach to a subject are not one and the same.
QUOTE]

Actually, I think most people who come here realize exactly how rediculous this and all other such boards are. Viewed objectively they are an utter waste of time.

"THIS IS A HOBBY." You are more right than you know. Yes reading and posting here is a hobby for many of us as distinct from our interest in audio equipment or music.

Actually "the Boys" over at AA fall into three categories IMO. Those who want to sell cables, those whose egos are stroked by pretending to be something they are not, namely fountains of knowledge and wisdom (self proclaimed oracles like John Curl and Jon Risch---here we go again Chris), and those who foolishly look to these oracles in the naive hope that they can learn something.

Just remember PC that you periodically tell us what a bunch of dimwits we are and how one thread there carries more intelligent discourse than a whole year's worth here and then you leave indignantly. But after they bop you over the head a few times you always come back here because anyone can express any opinion here. There really is no prevailing dogma and no taboos which might eat into some sponsor's bottom line. So rant on about this board. Enough of us have seen it too many times before to be surprised by it.

[pctower]

[QUOTE=skeptic]

Do you guys realize how ridiculous this board really is?

Yes.

BUT THIS IS A HOBBY, FOR GOD’S SAKE.

The boys over at AA are interested in equipment and what they believe equipment can do to enhance the enjoyment of music.

You can rest comfortable in your self-anointed intellectual superiority and moral outrage at those who insist on enjoying something from a lay perspective, although I prefer to be reminded that true wisdom is possessing a healthy respect for how little we really know. Intellectual arrogance and an intellectual approach to a subject are not one and the same.
QUOTE]

Actually, I think most people who come here realize exactly how rediculous this and all other such boards are. Viewed objectively they are an utter waste of time.

"THIS IS A HOBBY." You are more right than you know. Yes reading and posting here is a hobby for many of us as distinct from our interest in audio equipment or music.

Actually "the Boys" over at AA fall into three categories IMO. Those who want to sell cables, those whose egos are stroked by pretending to be something they are not, namely fountains of knowledge and wisdom (self proclaimed oracles like John Curl and Jon Risch---here we go again Chris), and those who foolishly look to these oracles in the naive hope that they can learn something.

Just remember PC that you periodically tell us what a bunch of dimwits we are and how one thread there carries more intelligent discourse than a whole year's worth here and then you leave indignantly. But after they bop you over the head a few times you always come back here because anyone can express any opinion here. There really is no prevailing dogma and no taboos which might eat into some sponsor's bottom line. So rant on about this board. Enough of us have seen it too many times before to be surprised by it.

Ranting is certain a hobby of mine from which I derive a great deal of enjoyment.

I have addressed your blatant mischaracterization of one particular post of mine - you perpetuation of the BIG LIE - many times before and won't go over that worn out path again.

You leave out one class of person over at AA, and in so doing, you totally undermine your credibility. You leave out the normal high end enthusiast who loves music and equipment, and whose personal experience had led him to believe that the proper choice of equipment and cables enhances his enjoyment of the hobby. He has no ego invested in his hobby beyond what might be expected of any normal hobbiest, and in posting he has no particular agenda other than to coverse with fellow hobbiests in the same manner that other hobbiests in other hobbies enjoy coversing with one an other and enjoying the comradarie of the hobby.

However, I know that friendly conversation and enjoyment of comradarie is beyond your scope of experience and understanding, so I won't continue trying to talk to a brick wall.

[FLZapped]

Ranting is certain a hobby of mine from which I derive a great deal of enjoyment.

Man, something we can both agree on

I have addressed your blatant mischaracterization of one particular post of mine - you perpetuation of the BIG LIE - many times before and won't go over that worn out path again.

There you go again, quote AHJ again.(my new initials for JR)

You leave out one class of person over at AA,. . . You leave out the normal high end enthusiast who loves music and equipment, and whose personal experience had led him to believe that the proper choice of equipment and cables enhances his enjoyment of the hobby.....to coverse with fellow hobbiests in the same manner that other hobbiests in other hobbies enjoy coversing with one an other and enjoying the comradarie of the hobby.

Maybe. But the few rotton apples are stinking up the whole barrel.

He has no ego invested in his hobby beyond what might be expected of any normal hobbiest, and in posting he has no particular agenda other than

No ego. That I doubt.

TGIF.....

-Bruce

[skeptic]

You leave out one class of person over at AA, and in so doing, you totally undermine your credibility. You leave out the normal high end enthusiast who loves music and equipment, and whose personal experience had led him to believe that the proper choice of equipment and cables enhances his enjoyment of the hobby. He has no ego invested in his hobby beyond what might be expected of any normal hobbiest, and in posting he has no particular agenda other than to coverse with fellow hobbiests in the same manner that other hobbiests in other hobbies enjoy coversing with one an other and enjoying the comradarie of the hobby.

You do yourself an injustice Phil, you forgot to say that you are also one step above Mother Theresa and Albert Schweitzer in your charity towards the poor.

I suppose some people who fit your fourth category stumble by and stay there for a while. But as soon as they are on to what that site is really about which shouldn't take them very long, they invariably leave for something which actually serves their needs and doesn't merely pretend to. Let's not get them confused with people who own high end equipment because of the prestige and namedropping and who have never even heard live undistorted music, let alone know what it's supposed to sound like.

[Tony_Montana]

You can drone on all you like about placebo, marketing hype, ect. In the meantime there’s a whole bunch of intelligent, articulate people hanging out over at AA having a good time and enjoying their systems, their hobby and the camaraderie of the hobby.

Howdy

There is nothing wrong with that picture. The problem arises only when they try to pass off their experiences (especially to newbie) as facts.

Newbie will come away from AA thinking that cable do indeed need breakin, or silver sound much more musical than copper (just to mention few)...which is utter nonsense. And when confronted, they all say the same thing such as "we can hear it, so it must be true". Or if trying to explain it scientifically...as Jneutron used to say..."they toss way too much garbage supposition into their post, so much so, that the real issues are tossed out with all the garbage..".

[Monstrous Mike]

Hi Phil,

As I was reading through this unfortunate thread, I was going to respond much the way Tony did. There is nothing wrong with people enjoying a hobby but there is much wrong (in my mind anyways) when people with limited technical education try to pass off their experiences as facts that are supported by science. That is what is truly absurd and most people with a scientific background wouldn't even waste their breath on what is said on these audio boards. Guys like jneutron are truly unique. Guys like jj simply gave up, and for good reason.

I am reminded of quote which is not mine but from some American author: "A sign of a first-rate intelligence is a mind which can hold two opposing views and still retain the ability to function."

This most certainly does not describe most of the inmates at AA. And just to allay any attempt at a comeback regarding the regulars here or elsewhere, this axiom does also apply to those who have absolutely proclaimed that all cables sound the same.

[pctower]

It's late and I just got home from the office, so I'll make it quick.

I find much to agree with in what you, Tony and even skeptic have to say. But to try and reconcile that agreement with my initial post (which hopefully most realize was part parody, part my real beliefs and part just some run of the mill rambling) is more than I have energy for tonight.

Cheers

[mtrycraft]

Do you guys realize how ridiculous this board really is?

How so? Other audio boards, AA, is not?

Yes. Placebo effect is a known phenomenon and from a purely scientific viewpoint sighted listening tests are unreliable. All well and good.

It wasn't this way for you on day one, was it? You learned, grown in knowledge because you wanted to, I suppose. Many just cannot accept this simple issue.

BUT THIS IS A HOBBY, FOR GOD’S SAKE.

Good thing. Many would never make it in the audio industry
And, just because it is a hobby one must throw out reality?

Anyone who describes his listening experiences here is immediately castigated.

Just reality brought into the picture when that is needed.

Which takes all the fun out of the hobby,

Audio is not fun anymore for you?


BUT, the experience of thousands of high end enthusiasts has led them to believe that there are differences.

And here is where my examples you know well should come in but won't.
So, they should not get a chance to reexamine their beliefs? I like to be corrected if and when my beliefes are not real and contrary to reality, don't you?


In the meantime there’s a whole bunch of intelligent, articulate people hanging out over at AA having a good time and enjoying their systems, their hobby and the camaraderie of the hobby.

Good for them. As it should be. It is a hobby. They are there. We are here.

As someone mentioned, there is virtually no mention of CES at AR. Why should there be? Here all one needs to know is the location of the nearest Home Depot.

Some don't know they can go to Home Depot so we help them out with that knowledge. Hope you don't mind. Some go tizzy about CES, others can wait to read about it in good audio mags

The boys over at AA are interested in equipment and what they believe equipment can do to enhance the enjoyment of music.

The problem is that they only believe and don't know. They should know; no reason not to know.


They don’t post here because this board has virtually nothing to do with what the hobby is for most who enjoy it.

They don't post here because they don't like challanges to beliefs. You think we don't enjoy it? We cannot enjoy it differently? No wonder there are more than one audio boards.


Some people I’m sure enjoy spending their free time experimenting in their home-based chemistry lab, rather than simply picking those chemical based products that seem to work best for them for the use intended.

I think a chemical reaction is not based on human perception. They react.
However, if those home chemists started making unrealistic claims, they would be put to task as well, I am sure.


Others apparently prefer home-based audio labs to listening rooms. To each his own.

Nothing wrong with this.

Yes, human perception can be seriously flawed. But human experience and perception, occurring in a non-lab, non-controlled environment is the essence of life – without these perceptions and experiences impacting upon our consciousness, life as we know it would not exist. Reduced to its essence, human life is solely the experiences of our conscious mind – nothing more, nothing less.


And, when these human experiences of life is taken to court, your court, it is examined for truths, reality, etc.
And among friends, untruths perpetuate and an urban legend is fostered never to die. My other examples that you know about are appropriate here too

We humans are on this planet with physical, mental and emotional capabilities that are the end result of evolution as it just happened to unfurl on this planet.

Yes


That evolutionary process took place in a pre-industrial world,

Yes, and some of the consequences are still hindering out progress. Again, my examples fit here too.