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  1. #51
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    Mr. Peabody I did read this and that was a more technical way of saying what I just posted. the though of a tweeters dome and motor structure in comparison to a woofers cone and motor structure plus the other elements it would be crazy to think that it takes as much power to run a tweeter than a woofer. Put a chevy small block with 325 horse power in a nova and it will be pretty quick do to the fact of the power to weight ratio. Put that same motor in a big cady and it will not perform the same, more power will be needed. Woofers are bigger structures and even though woofers get shorter bursts of power from kick drums and bass guitar and tweeters get more constant music energy it would be crazy to think that tweeters would take the same amount of power to run as bigger woofers.

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by harley .guy07
    Mr. Peabody I did read this and that was a more technical way of saying what I just posted. the though of a tweeters dome and motor structure in comparison to a woofers cone and motor structure plus the other elements it would be crazy to think that it takes as much power to run a tweeter than a woofer. Put a chevy small block with 325 horse power in a nova and it will be pretty quick do to the fact of the power to weight ratio. Put that same motor in a big cady and it will not perform the same, more power will be needed. Woofers are bigger structures and even though woofers get shorter bursts of power from kick drums and bass guitar and tweeters get more constant music energy it would be crazy to think that tweeters would take the same amount of power to run as bigger woofers.
    Yeah, but since I pulled it from an earlier post I said it first, so there. Just messing with you.

    Aside from the woofer needing more power the post also shows how the crossover distributes the power based on frequency. In addition, to not believing woofers require more power, Geoffcin believes the woofers and tweeters receive the same amount of power from a speaker input signal.

  3. #53
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Yeah, but since I pulled it from an earlier post I said it first, so there. Just messing with you.

    Aside from the woofer needing more power the post also shows how the crossover distributes the power based on frequency. In addition, to not believing woofers require more power, Geoffcin believes the woofers and tweeters receive the same amount of power from a speaker input signal.
    Please do not misquote me, as that's not what I've said.
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  4. #54
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    He seems to not realize the effects that impedance plays on power output. Or in lamens terms RESISTANCE. that is that main factor that determines how much power any given driver gets and the impedance is different at any given frequency and bass is usually were the lower impedance's are so thats where alot of the power goes which is a good thing since some of todays woofers and subwoofers have very stiff cone structures for rigity,huge magnets and voice coils in excess of 5 inch's in some cases. The motor structure and cone stiffness and xmax(throw) are all indicators of how much power they can handle and how sensitive a woofer will be. I think You and me Mr. peabody have made are argument strong and with proven backup literature. I think the judges hammer just hit the damn table on this one

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  5. #55
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    Here's one other article I ran across, see where they begin to talk about "Power Usage" http://www.colomar.com/Shavano/general_sound_info.html

  6. #56
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    Mr P., in that article, all they are saying is explaining how a filter works, how a 12dB octave filter for example will bring down the dB or power by 12 dB every octave. This is NOT saying anything about one driver or the other generally using more power. They both could be using the same amount of power for all we know, according to the link you've posted.
    If you're not agreeing here, then you should perhaps copy & paste the relevant literature as I cannot seem to find it.

    Where is EStat?!

  7. #57
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    I have had some speaker work done lately. Because of this I have been hanging around a speaker tech. Just yesterday, he was explaining this to me.

    I have no "proof" but I would say this guy is qualified to make a call. I also had no idea what this thread was about until reading it just now.

    We were discussing speakers and the power required to drive them. He said the bigger the speaker/magnet, the easier they are to drive or push sound through. Tweeters would require more power. I forget his exact explanation but it had to do with the process between the coil and the magnet.

    I'll ask him again today and type what he says onto this thread.

    We were talking details based on the fact that I want super efficient speakers for my tube amp. He basically told me something with a large 10 or 12 will generally be more efficient than something with a couple of smaller 6.5's or 8's.

    I think that horns also play into this theory. Have you ever seen a horn on a big woofer? The horn is there to help convey the sound and help with the efficiency of the tweeters power issue.

    Anyhow, I'm no expert and I may have a couple of details wrong but the overall point has been made correctly. I'm afraid that Geoffcin seems to be most correct about this matter. I haven't looked at any reference material posted to the thread. I'm pretty confident I don't need to. This tech I speak of has been at it for years and I fully trust what he has to say.

  8. #58
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Oh and to the OP, I think the point of "more power to a lower or higher note" is moot. It doesn't have to do with notes or frequencies. It has to do with physical structures of the speakers and their relative conductivity based on the magnets they use. Sound reproduction is an electrical process, it doesn't care about low or high.

    This is my assumption based on what I've been told. Someone show me otherwise.

  9. #59
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    Interesting.
    Chubbs, I'm online

  10. #60
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    AA, been having issue with Messenger. One sec I am going to try and upgrade my version

  11. #61
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppachubby
    Oh and to the OP, I think the point of "more power to a lower or higher note" is moot. It doesn't have to do with notes or frequencies. It has to do with physical structures of the speakers and their relative conductivity based on the magnets they use. Sound reproduction is an electrical process, it doesn't care about low or high.

    This is my assumption based on what I've been told. Someone show me otherwise.
    Hi Poppa,

    Very perceptive! Sound reproduction is a electro-mechanical process and as such follows strict conservation of energy rules. Basically with modern loudspeakers an electrical signal is sent to a driver which moves a diaphragm of some type to move air. Driver sensitivity is based on many factors, and it's quite true that as the frequency gets lower you need a larger and larger structure to move air efficiantly, however you don't need more power to produce the same SPL with drivers of the same efficiency.
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  12. #62
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    You all are so wrong. Geoffcin you are mixing up your concepts. So what if the tweeter and woofer are the same sensitivity, it will still take the woofer more power to reproduce the 90 dB than a tweeter.

    AA, you said it yourself, the power REDUCES as the frequency goes up, hello....., that's what we are talking about. If the power reduces as you approach 20 kHz, then it takes less power at higher frequencies.

    G, you state what you think but have yet to show anything in writing. How can an engineer not understand simple mass?

    Poppa, you are just confusing things more. When have you ever seen more, or even, the same power go to a tweeter? Not in car audio, not in pro audio and not in a box speaker.

  13. #63
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    OY?! 1 watt is one watt! If a speaker produces a 50Hz tone at 90dB with ONE WATT using the woofer, and a 10kHz tone of 90dB using ONE WATT with it's tweeter, then it's using the SAME amount of energy to produce either tone.

    Futhermore, the flatter the responce of a speaker, the more equal the power requirement to produce sound across a wider range of the spectrum. The theoretical "perfect speaker" would produce a tone of equal SPL across the entire range of human hearing using the SAME amount of energy no matter what the frequency.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

    AA, you said it yourself, the power REDUCES as the frequency goes up, hello....., that's what we are talking about. If the power reduces as you approach 20 kHz, then it takes less power at higher frequencies.

    .
    Okay, but again you are simply pointing out the obvious job of a filter. As you say, the power reduces as the frequency goes up (low pass filter). BUT, it also reduces as the frequency goes down (high pass filter).
    We still haven't achieved anything here

  15. #65
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

    Poppa, you are just confusing things more.
    No, not really. I think it was pretty confused before my comments.

  16. #66
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    AA, you need to read the articles posted more thoroughly. It took me time to find them and I don't have time to spoon feed any one.

    Please notice, EVERYONE, in this next article where the writer states FOR EVERY OCTAVE LOWER YOU GO IT TAKES 4 TIMES THE EXCURSION AND 16 TIMES THE POWER.

    http://sound.westhost.com/linkwitz-transform.htm

    OY, I'd say.

  17. #67
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    Ok I'm going to be on Peabody's side for this one,
    "Bass notes move a lot more air than treble notes. They are more of an engineering challenge to recreate. There is an inverse cube law in effect - a 30Hz note at 100dB represents 8 times as much acoustical energy as a 60Hz note at 100dB. There is also the issue that most systems use two normal speakers for stereo, but only one sub. Therefore, to go an octave lower than your main speakers, the subwoofer will ideally be 16 times larger than the main speakers. The more extension a sub attempts, the larger this number will get.

    In the real world, very few people are willing to live with such an enormous speaker. Subs are scaled down, and are therefore a lot less efficient than the main speakers. Thus, the average sub needs to burn a lot more power than a normal speaker. The smaller the sub is, the higher the required power.

    Since the surface area of the driver is unlikely to be 16 times the surface area of the main woofers, the sub's cone will also be required to move a lot further to generate equivalent SPL. Again, the smaller the driver is, the greater the excursion requiremed to match the main speakers.

    The outcome of all this compromise is that the sub works a lot harder than the main speakers. They work differently, and they *sound* different. This is more or less noticable depending on how much the design is compromised, how it is implemented, and how much money is thrown at the problem." Courtesy of some guy way smarter then me in this article that Peabody posted earlier http://everything2.com/title/Subwoofer .... this guy seems to be correct to me.

  18. #68
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    AA, you need to read the articles posted more thoroughly. It took me time to find them and I don't have time to spoon feed any one.

    Please notice, EVERYONE, in this next article where the writer states FOR EVERY OCTAVE LOWER YOU GO IT TAKES 4 TIMES THE EXCURSION AND 16 TIMES THE POWER.

    http://sound.westhost.com/linkwitz-transform.htm

    OY, I'd say.
    Time to give it up Peabo. If you actually READ the article you would see that the author is describing what the Linkwitz transform circuit would require to eq the speaker so it can perform past it's nominal rating. ANY speaker driver eq'ed to produce 3dB more than it is nominally rated for will require DOUBLE the power to perform the task. This goes for woofers AND tweeters. You can perform the same type of eq going HIGHER in frequency and you would require the same amount of extra energy to perform it.
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  19. #69
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BallinWithNash
    Ok I'm going to be on Peabody's side for this one,
    "Bass notes move a lot more air than treble notes. They are more of an engineering challenge to recreate. There is an inverse cube law in effect - a 30Hz note at 100dB represents 8 times as much acoustical energy as a 60Hz note at 100dB.
    You may be with him, but you would be wrong. The measure Decibel, or dB is a measure of sound pressure energy. (in this example) A 100dB sound has the same energy whether it's a 20Hz note or an inaudible ultra-high frequency 100Khz note.

    Y
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    You may be with him, but you would be wrong. The measure Decibel, or dB is a measure of sound pressure energy. A 100dB sound has the same energy whether it's a 20Hz note or an inaudible ultra-high frequency 100Khz note.

    Y
    Prove it ... every one I know has a bigger amp for there sub if it is not needed why spend the extra money? You yourself have subs being powered by a 250 watt amp and your PS Audio HCA-2 amp only puts out 150 I want you to take the HCA and hook it up to your subs and then take a 250 watt amp and hook it up to your midrange/tweeters and turn it up ... the bigger amp will have no problem powering the mid/highs but that small amp will start clipping faster then the 250 watt amp especially if it is power the subs ... now if you switch them back around everything will work fine and nothing should clip till the volume level gets way up there.

  21. #71
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BallinWithNash
    Prove it ... .
    Sorry, but I am getting a bit tired trying to teach basic engineering principles to people who don't want to believe it. A dB is something that every engineering freshman gets beaten into his head, and it's something that you should have tried to understand before posting your last post.
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  22. #72
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    bud if it is a the same SPL it will take more power to produce a lower frequency versus a high frequency I love people who call bull **** and dont back it up ... every active speaker has a bigger amp for the woofer everyone I have met even you have a bigger amp for your subs ... explain to me why if it is not needed? again you just keep saying we are wrong with no facts

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    Why, should be something you answer Geoff. You've given us nothing but talk with no proof. Maybe you should go back and read the original post, I've supplied ample information to show my point, I'm waiting on yours. I don't think that's too much to ask since you are trying to go against the majority of the audio world.

  24. #74
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BallinWithNash
    bud if it is a the same SPL it will take more power to produce a lower frequency versus a high frequency I love people who call bull **** and dont back it up ... every active speaker has a bigger amp for the woofer everyone I have met even you have a bigger amp for your subs ... explain to me why if it is not needed? again you just keep saying we are wrong with no facts
    If your sub has a a rating of 90dB per watt at 32Hz then 1 watt will produce what you would THINK is a super-powerful 90dB 32Hz shaking, but it's really no louder (powerful) than a 90dB 1kHz tone that your main speaker produces. The reason you THINK it's more powerful is that a 32Hz wave couples to your body rather well and you will FEEL it, as opposed to the 1kHz sound which you will only hear. The operative thing here is that you THINK it's more powerful. That's not science, it's guessing via intuition.

    Most subs are NOT that efficient (although my 15" Velodynes are) with some of the smaller ones having terrible ratings which require them to have massive amps to produce the same SPL as larger more efficient subs. Velodyne makes an 8" sub with a 1000 watt amp so it can produce higher SPL levels. Remember, for every 3dB increase it requires TWICE the power, so if the sub starts out with an efficiency of 78dB per watt at 32Hz it will need LOTS of power to produce a 90dB SPL.
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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Time to give it up Peabo. If you actually READ the article you would see that the author is describing what the Linkwitz transform circuit would require to eq the speaker so it can perform past it's nominal rating. ANY speaker driver eq'ed to produce 3dB more than it is nominally rated for will require DOUBLE the power to perform the task. This goes for woofers AND tweeters. You can perform the same type of eq going HIGHER in frequency and you would require the same amount of extra energy to perform it.
    Well yes, but that is a sub woofer playing a 90HZ note has a wave length of 3.3310e+6 meters versus a tweeter playing a 100000Hz note has a wave length of 2.9979e+3 ... those two wave lengths are different so wouldn't it take more power to reproduce the longer wave length?

    And on the other note why do we have subs, tweeters, and midrange speakers if each speaker can handle everything? there would be no point to buy a larger amp for a sub?

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