So here it is #301...

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  • 08-24-2004, 08:39 AM
    Resident Loser
    So here it is #301...
    ...and counting...probably more like 600 or better, but owing to some c0ck-up on the registration front and my changing monikers(used to go by jimHJJ) in mid stream...here we are...

    As this is my first "voluntary" submission to the LABOROTORY(in my best Bobby "Boris" Pickett voice) I'll try to make it a doozie...

    I am here to philosophize, to opinionate and otherwise spew forth my own anecdotal audio malarkey...all in the guise of an attempt at an entertaining romp thru audioland...

    I miss the real technical stuff that was contributed by my late, lamented partners-in-crime. This place is a shell of itself without them...instead we have to endure even more mis-information that goes relatively unchallenged..relatively, well maybe 'til now...

    In an effort to keep the place all warm and fuzzy as THEY want it to be, I've decided to post here, far from the scene of the crime...we're gonna play nice-nice and they won't delete this...RIGHT!...Besides look at the traffic...three or four threads and a handful of replies...who's gonna' look here?

    No names, no faces... just some very audio-related observations...

    There was a real poppin' post that got answers that were so ridiculous, they deserved ridicule...but alas I am not a liberty to provide such. Even after the poster informed us all the trouble was with his gear, there were still those who by force of habit or whatever, suggested a power conditioner might be the answer...Is reading and comprehension a lost art?

    First off, the initial poster provided incomplete info...well, yeah...sure, it COULD be the unit itself, but when we are told(to paraphrase) all I did was change rooms and speaker wire...you tend to look for the likely suspects...even though a "short" in the wiring is really "out there"...but is a guided tour of turn-on/turn-off sequences a viable answer? Then we have the "power conditioner"...how in the name of Ampere can this play any part in the situation as described...

    I digress(yet again)...the main crux of my biscuit is but another post re: some aftermarket wiring...when confronted with some questions, and in a fit of pique, I have responded "...look at your manual etc..." In this case I asked(again, to paraphrase) were you not provided with the required info? Didn't the salesman explain?

    Now whenever I see a question that holds some interest, I try to visit the manufacturers site to get the info required, directly from some portion of the horses anatomy...I find these sites informative and highly entertaining as they are a great part of my never-ending file of what I see as pure hogwash...this one was no exception...again no names, don't wanna' rattle any chains...Laugh...ROTFLMAO is more like it...I still ache...

    Suffice it to say, no name is required...save for some "proprietary" nomenclature, they are quite interchangeable...there are the requisite designs and graphics used to illustrate the "architecture"...an explanation of their specific "geometry"...some acronyms that stand for some whiz-bang "technology"...frequent mention of "proprietary" manufacturing process...unfortunately it is someone elses "proprietary" process of which anyone may partake...and other psuedo-scientific "factoids" such as a statement similar to "all drawn wire exhibits directionality" Huh? ANY charts, graphs, tests, studies? Not a one, so it seems...the only thing missing was my all time fave, mention of some obtuse relationship to NASA and the US space program...

    But all is not lost. In addition to all the snake oil and voodoo and just plain doo-doo, we have a new term. I have actually seen it used in a post to this site...the term is "run-in"... Now anyone left, knows I have had a running battle with re: to the term "burn-in"(not to mention the the entire concept)...as we all know, "burn-in" is the time period required for the item under test to fail...has been so, will always be so.PERIOD..."break-in" is related to shoes and automobiles...cars used to be delivered with "break-in" oil and I've never seen anyone dump a quart of thirty-weight into a loudspeaker...so now we have yet another "-in" term which cannot seemingly have a case made against it...seemingly...they seem to say pretty much the same things, but have changed the name to protect the innocent...sorry folks, but isn't "run-in" what Mike the cop used to threaten Lou Costello with?

    jimHJJ(...now THAT was funny...)
  • 08-24-2004, 09:28 AM
    kexodusc
    Okay, I'll bite...What in the blue hell is "run-in" (seemingly)?

    And (for what it's worth), even though I don't know what it is, you know you can't prove that it doesn't exist. :)
  • 08-24-2004, 12:18 PM
    Resident Loser
    As near as I can tell...
    ...the "run-in" period is at minimum, 24hrs longer than your dealers return period...(although, I hear tell it can take months as it is a slow and tedious process)

    jimHJJ(...as always seems to be the case...)
  • 08-24-2004, 12:24 PM
    kexodusc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...the "run-in" period is at minimum, 24hrs longer than your dealers return period...(although, I hear tell it can take months as it is a slow and tedious process)

    jimHJJ(...as always seems to be the case...)

    Ahh...I see...and what differences will I notice in the product after "run-in" from prior to "run-in"?

    Geez, I wonder if all my gear is run-in? I never did run-in my TV.

    I heard some companies pre-run-in their equipment, but it still takes 100 hours for "break-in".
  • 08-24-2004, 01:31 PM
    magictooth
    LOL, that is a great post and truer words haven't been spoken on this site for at least a couple weeks....
  • 08-24-2004, 11:42 PM
    markw
    The effects of "run in"...
    ... are so pronunced that many swear a tremendous difference.

    Of course, in many cases these are the same people who post the question "how long does run in take?" when the obvious (to me, anyway) answer is "Won't your ears tell you?"
  • 08-25-2004, 05:39 AM
    Resident Loser
    And as a bit of an addendum...
    ...there is yet another post re: speaker wire...

    Man, I don't know if I can stand it...

    The poster states...zip-cord is horrible...and has a specific recommendation, sooo...in the interest of self-edumacation, I quietly enter the land of esoterica yet again.

    Again with the acronyms...and the mellifluous prose.This time as some sort of "scientific" credentials, we are treated to a primer of basic electronic theory beginning with atomic structure...charts and graphs and sine waves...waaay, doggies...I'se impressed!

    We're gonna' be going into network theory and the rest...sometime...still under construction it seems...all fine and dandy, but where are the test results...surely, they could actually do some sort of legit, bias-free testing...he!!, they could heroes to their segment of the industry..shut us all up for once and for all by simply proving some sort of superiority...

    jimHJJ(...it makes you wonder...or at least it should...)
  • 08-25-2004, 06:26 AM
    Monstrous Mike
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...he!!, they could heroes to their segment of the industry..shut us all up for once and for all by simply proving some sort of superiority...

    jimHJJ(...it makes you wonder...or at least it should...)

    Umm Jim, in case you haven't noticed, ToddB has a masterful quote from badman...
    __________________
    "Reality supercedes science."
    -- badman, 9/3/02, AudioAsylum.com

    Science simply hasn't caught up with the intricate art of cable design and sonics.

    Although, as you pointed out, it is interesting that science is used by cable companies to explain their products but science can't show that their products perform according to the science behind them.

    So I guess, science is only useful if it helps you and you can generally disregard it if it doesn't.
  • 08-25-2004, 03:58 PM
    Chris Garrett
    Nice hole, you guys have here.....
    Somebody tell Saddam he has a phone call.

    Don't let the bed bugs bite, Chris
  • 08-25-2004, 05:51 PM
    DMK
    Yep
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chris Garrett
    Somebody tell Saddam he has a phone call.

    Don't let the bed bugs bite, Chris

    No more intelligent discourse around A/R. I guess I'll go listen to some Shakti Stones.

    Lights out....
  • 08-26-2004, 04:53 AM
    Resident Loser
    You would notice....
    ...being an "exspurt" on holes...

    jimHJJ(...bite this...)
  • 08-26-2004, 07:08 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...being an "exspurt" on holes...

    jimHJJ(...bite this...)

    So where were you going again with this post? Don't believe in break-in effects for speakers or cables?

    I really don't give the question much thought because I don't find any particular issue with waiting a week or so for a component to reach its stasis. My JPS Labs ICs took a couple of weeks to settle down. As did the wiring in my DIY attenuators. (I could have returned the ICs, no questions asked for another two weeks). Why make such a fuss?

    rw
  • 08-27-2004, 01:50 AM
    markw
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chris Garrett
    Nice hole, you guys have here.....

    Well Chris, it seems you just couldn't wait to crawl up it.
  • 08-27-2004, 08:22 AM
    Resident Loser
    Quite honestly, no...
    ...I see nothing realistic in expecting some sort of sub-atomic re-alignment of molecules which allows electrons to flow in a more orderly fashion...since I assume we are fairly well aquainted with electron movement and signal transmission in the atomic scheme of things, this occurs in real time and should not be subject to a lengthy time period to be achieved nor would it then become in any way fixed...signal flows when applied and things settle down when it is not...Is there some sort of detectable after-the-fact field? Something? Anything?

    Tubes require a warm-up to reach optimum operational state, as do solid-state components...although much less. Most electronics gear I have had experience with is designed and intended to work from the get-go. If they are going to fail they usually do so in the first 24-48 hours, if not immediately...if opereating parameters start to change that is usually a sign of impending doom...You mean to say wires and various electronics components "know" the type of equipment they are being used in and therefore have different behavioral characteristics? I find that a bit far-fetched. Once they are up and running, I am of the opinion that the only things that might "break-in" are one's ears...you simply "acclimatize", much like the wood you leave in the room within which it is slated to be used.

    Loudspeakers...pretty much the same thing as far as I'm concerned...the surrounds and voice-coils, one mechanical, the other electro-magnetic, pretty much get used to their lot in life rather quickly, I'd hazard a guess...the drivers are chosen in part for their compliance...they begin to go through a "break-down" process as soon as signals are applied...other than wine or certain cheeses, I can't come up with anything that improves with age...once they have flexed or vibrated themselves to the point of any audible change, I would say they are on the road to the bin.

    And again, the only reason for a "fuss" is that there is that coterie of participants, who clock and chart any sort of "shake-down" period, in the hundreds of hours with"documentation" of "obvious" shifts and changes in sonic characteristics...and then present it as some sort of "evidence".

    jimHJJ(...OK, but of what?...)

    BTW, excellent job of moderating and getting things back on track.
  • 08-27-2004, 11:47 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...signal flows when applied and things settle down when it is not...Is there some sort of detectable after-the-fact field? Something? Anything?

    I have zero technical substantiation to back the assertion that I have perceived some audible cable break-in effects. Most recently, I replaced the Radio Shack wire used with my DIY attenuators to DH Labs T-14. Immediately, it sounded different - and not altogether better. After about a week's worth of use, it seemed to have a less peaky top end.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    You mean to say wires and various electronics components "know" the type of equipment they are being used in and therefore have different behavioral characteristics?

    I'm merely speculating as to the apparent cause, but not for the reason you have suggested. Similarly, I have been told by EEs that once an electronic component has been used, one way to "kill" a resistor or capacitor is not to use it for a great while. I know of cases with friends and relatives where they store a perfectly working component for a period of years only to find that it fails or becomes noisy when used again. Perhaps break-in is a related phenomenon.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    .they begin to go through a "break-down" process as soon as signals are applied...other than wine or certain cheeses, I can't come up with anything that improves with age...once they have flexed or vibrated themselves to the point of any audible change, I would say they are on the road to the bin.

    Perhaps - I have very little experience with this (it's been 24 years since I last broke in a pair of good speakers and little to comment upon.) There may be a parallel, however, with breaking in high impact sports boots like ice skating boots. I can most certainly comment on this topic having done it many a time in the past twenty years. Brand new boots do not allow proper compliance to control the landing of jumps, precise footwork, or spins. It takes a couple of months (that's for me - less time for serious high level skaters) for them to be at their best. Competitive skaters maintain multiple sets of boots for this very reason. The last thing they want to wear for a serious match is new boots. Admittedly, that breaking in process is also the beginning of the breaking down process. Nevertheless, optimum performance is not available out of the box. The surrounds and spiders of moving coil speakers may undergo a similar process allowing them to move most freely. There is a very interesting situation, however, with my electrostats. Over time, the exceedingly thin mylar diaphragms stretch causing physical "bottoming" of them to the frame when playing high excursion bass passages. Jim Strickland, the designer of my speakers advised me to periodically heat treat the panels with a hair dryer to maintain diaphragm "tautness". It works.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    .And again, the only reason for a "fuss" is that there is that coterie of participants, who clock and chart any sort of "shake-down" period, in the hundreds of hours with"documentation" of "obvious" shifts and changes in sonic characteristics...and then present it as some sort of "evidence".

    Point taken. My feelings on these matters is far less "over the top".


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    .BTW, excellent job of moderating and getting things back on track.

    Thank you. I am trying to be as objective as possible in this new role. I have found the need to mildly chide someone only once - and that was directed to one from "my camp". I also summarily deleted two posts consisting entirely of pornographic comments.

    rw