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  1. #51
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    You went to a lot of effort, StevenSurprenant-san

    You've had enough of this nonsense? OK.

    I am sure your impressive last effort gave you great pleasure in your time well spent. A lot of time, I would guess. You state that we all have opinions, it is just that you seem unwilling to abide my opinions and the reasons I have arrived at them. But I should abide yours. Fair enough.

    Unfortunately, opinions and/or results without the reasons and stories that built them are rather flat and uninteresting.

    Well, do enjoy your hobby. Maybe it is best that we all agree with you in every detail, so that your life will be happier. [But I will still feel that I am entitled to disagree. Even if you feel that I am not entitled to disagree.]

    So.... maybe this is best:

    I agree with hermanv and StevenSurprenant in every way.

    OK?

  2. #52
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    You've had enough of this nonsense? OK.

    I am sure your impressive last effort gave you great pleasure in your time well spent. A lot of time, I would guess. You state that we all have opinions, it is just that you seem unwilling to abide my opinions and the reasons I have arrived at them. But I should abide yours. Fair enough.

    Unfortunately, opinions and/or results without the reasons and stories that built them are rather flat and uninteresting.

    Well, do enjoy your hobby. Maybe it is best that we all agree with you in every detail, so that your life will be happier. [But I will still feel that I am entitled to disagree. Even if you feel that I am not entitled to disagree.]

    So.... maybe this is best:

    I agree with hermanv and StevenSurprenant in every way.

    OK?

    LOL!

    I posted this before your last reply to Herman.

    I'm glad it's over.

    I love disagreement as long as it's constructive. That thread was not.

    I think that at this point we should do the, "You da man" -- No, "You da man" thingy.

    Actually I gave your posts some thought as to whether people would have a longer lasting audio memory of a live sound versus listening to an audio setup. It was intriguing.

    In the end, I concluded that there was no difference as long as the interest level was at the same level during each event. Still made me think! So something good came from this.

    No need to be condescending, I think we got over that.

    Enjoy your retirement!

  3. #53
    Gab
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    cables is my last priority because its too subtle , changing xo components makes more difference,

    Personaly i think the best improvement, ( i would like to get feed back from people who tried this) is to solder properly all the cables, many connections vibrate with the current and the sound in the room making inducing waves in the sound: solder evrything and sound treatment to room and vibration isolation of components has a small impact on sound. Try solder ( do not blame me, i am not responsible for destroying your expensive furutech ) if you have cheap enough components only to not degrate , and listen to the high pitch sounds, there was a very nice difference when i tried it, but it can be only my imagination

  4. #54
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    So good cables are more revealing of the original source...question is...how do we know? Well, that is where it takes a good ear and one that is knowledgeable on what a recording should sound like. This is an artform, a craft, a skill, something that takes time to train, just like tuning an instrument by ear.
    Sorry, but this has been shown not to hold up. There are any number of testing methodologies that are far and away superior to human hearing when it comes to finding differences between cables. And you CAN find them, but compared to test equipment sensitivity, they are almost always inaudible.

    People with perfect-pitch (like myself) can hear a certain note and know what that note is and can tune an instrument or pick out a passage and identify the notes being played, this is through training and long-term listening.
    Perfect pitch is different from hearing a broadband complex waveform and being able to tell it is different unless done under rigorous labaratory conditions. There are so many vaiables when listening to an acoustic source in an acoustic environment, that control is nearly non-existant in a casual setting, such as a home.

    Long term listening won't work as a valid scientific method. Aural memory has been shown to be in the quarter-second range.


    -Bruce

  5. #55
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    I personally believe that DBTs, as designed and conducted, are often flawed. For example, in my opinion, a short coming of many DBTs is that participants are not permitted the chance to familiarize themselves to their own satisfaction with the different sources in sighted listening before the test is beguns; another flaw would be that they cannot control how long they get to listen to each sound, and/or when the switch to the other (or possibly the same) sound is made. Regardless however, the only valid outcome for even the most rigorous test is, "The test revealed that the test subjects, under the test conditions, could/could not reliably distinguish between the sounds". Of course, remember that not all DBTs ever conducted have turned up negative results.

    But to generalize regarding negative results, I ask, if you cannot distinguish different sounds under reasonable DBT conditions, how important can those differences really be???

    Your reasoning is flawed. I can use pink noise as a test signal - how do you familiarize yourself with that?

    Familiarization has nothing to do with finding differences, especially under switched conditions. The difference will be obvious at the switch, or it won't.

    Further, DBTs don't give "negative results" - you either get a null - no difference could be detected, or that there was a difference detected, period.

    If you want a different result, you'd have to switch to something along the lines of a Mean Objective Score type test.

    -Bruce

  6. #56
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    I am not sure what all you are soldering, Gab

    Solder clamped multi-strand Cu wires with soft electronic solder before you clamp them? Absolutely! This is always better than clamping bare wires. A rather hostile poster attacked me for making the above point here in 1996 or 1997. [That exchange may be in the archives although these forums had a different appearance then.] Then a poster who had never posted before told us he had an electronics company and that this question was important to them, so he had one of his techs make two wired connections, one joint simply clamped bare multi-strand Cu wire and one clamped multi-strand Cu wires tinned with soft electronic solder . Then they tested the two joints, and the joint formed by clamping multi-strand Cu wires tinned with soft electronic solder was clearly superior. He scored the argument Mash - 1, XXXX - 0.

    W/r/t electronics, one would hope the electronics are properly assembled and that no further soldering is needed. If remedial soldering makes any difference then something was originally amiss.

    W/r/t the audibility of wires, this is a religeous discussion with ony two permissible results: If you should conduct a listening test and you hear a difference you are then one of the annointed; and if you conduct a listening test and you can not discern any differences, well, YOU simply have a problem. Spend mony on wires as you wish.... I suspect that many here will one day wish they still had the money they have spent on wires.....

  7. #57
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    Mash, wrt to electronics, I dunno about the hi-end hand built type, but the mass produced automated production line stuff usually go through the reflow oven / liquid solder bath on a conveyor. There is no way of telling if each and every single component is well soldered on to the pcb here. Following which, the finished pcb goes to an automated tester, that powers up the unit under test (uut) which sits on a jig. Pins on this jig feedbacks voltage / data and if all is within manufacturer's tolerance, the pcb is encased ready for sale. You buy it and take it home, but will it give of it's best ? Usually not. Some components may not be well soldered, but electrons will still flow, and you won't know what you missed unless you compare it with an identical model, which had remedial solder job done for every single component. Point is, automation is never 100% perfect. You gotta live with it. Unless, if you are into DIY, but that's out of topic here.
    Regards,
    Gerard

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    Solder clamped multi-strand Cu wires with soft electronic solder before you clamp them? Absolutely! This is always better than clamping bare wires.
    Never, ever, pre-solder stranded wire just before using a compression connection.

    Solder undergoes ductile creep. All stranded connections which were pre-soldered will loosen with time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    Then a poster who had never posted before told us he had an electronics company and that this question was important to them, so he had one of his techs make two wired connections, one joint simply clamped bare multi-strand Cu wire and one clamped multi-strand Cu wires tinned with soft electronic solder . Then they tested the two joints, and the joint formed by clamping multi-strand Cu wires tinned with soft electronic solder was clearly superior.
    Initially, it will be. But in less than a year, all the product that poster produces will be falling from the sky (relatively speaking).

    I have two pieces of equipment, each about 1.5 megabucks apiece, that were assembled using tinned stranded copper wire in guages from #22 to #16, and every 6 to 8 months I need to have an electrical tech tighten every single compression connection in the machine. Needless to say, I had to change the division's tech specifications to disallow pre-tinning.

    Cheers, John
    edit: By tinned, I mean actually filled with solder at the tip, not plating.

  9. #59
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    Your problem is interesting, jneutron

    First, I would note that solder is a combination of lead and tin, and a higher percentage of lead produces a 'softer' solder. Ever since the first Henry had Forded Dearborn, auto batteries have featured lead binding posts to which heavy wires are attached using lead clamps tightened with a steel nut & bolt. This combination has worked splendidly for about a century now, except for some individuals who from time to time feel that if making the clamping bolt snug was ‘good’, tightening the bejabbers out of the clamping bolt was even better. But all that happened was that the lead clamp would relax (creep) into uselessness before their very eyes. The solution then was to simply replace the lead clamp.

    Likewise, the cast iron brake rotors on your car can be ruined if the wheel lug nuts are over tightened with an impact wrench by hasty “tire jockeys”, instead of the wheel lug nuts being properly tightened with a torque wrench set to the proper torque. The combination of excessive clamping tension on the rotor from the wheel lug nut studs combined with the heat generated during braking causes the cast iron rotor to creep and distort. The result is a poorly functioning brake, which can only be repaired by replacing the distorted brake rotor.

    My point is that if you apply enough pressure or tension combined with enough temperature you can make any metal creep, and creep is non-conservative, i.e. it is irreversible.

    This leads me to think that your techs were over-tightening those tinned wire compression joints. There could be other or additional root causes but excessive tightening is where I would start.

    I believe your key question would be: Could the use of non-tinned Cu wire allow the formation of oxides on the Cu wire which then could then render those wire connections unreliable? This could be an even bigger problem, I would think, than the need to retighten some connections.
    Last edited by Mash; 06-11-2008 at 09:49 PM.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    My point is that if you apply enough pressure or tension combined with enough temperature you can make any metal creep, and creep is non-conservative, i.e. it is irreversible.

    This leads me to think that your techs were over-tightening those tinned wire compression joints. There could be other or additional root causes but excessive tightening is where I would start.
    Long term failure of pre-tinned stranded copper compression connections is independent of the initial torque. Solder creeps when subjected to compressive forces which are sufficient for a proper electrical connection. This occurred even when torque wrenches were used. Any compression joint which is tight enough to stop the tech from being able to slip the wire out, will loosen with time.

    For a little while, I thought it was temp cycling of the environment, as the temp would swing from a low of 65 to a high of 85. But it turned out not to correlate with temp swings.

    My workplace is not the first place to experience this. Nor will it be the last, as long as there are those who worry only about the initial contact resistivity, and not about long term reliability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    I believe your key question would be: Could the use of non-tinned Cu wire allow the formation of oxides on the Cu wire which then could then render those wire connections unreliable? This could be an even bigger problem, I would think, than the need to retighten some connections.
    Oxide formation of a good compression joint is not a concern. There are thousands of such joints in every house on the planet. It is sanctioned by the NEC in the USA.

    Cheers, John

  11. #61
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    I crimp, then solder. Belt and suspenders.

    The problem with "gas tight" crimp joints is that machines do a pretty good job of this, but the old squeeze it pliers aren't worth much. Worst of all are those pliers stamped from a flat heavy gauge sheet metal. You know the one's, they have cast plastic handles, they cut threaded screws, strip wire and cut-off wire, doing all jobs badly.

    If you must crimp at home, go get one of the cast pliers designed only for crimping. Or buy the crimping tools recommended by the terminal manufacturer, hint, it won't be $1.95
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
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    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
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    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  12. #62
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Aural memory has been shown to be in the quarter-second range.
    -Bruce
    Statements like this, don't help. Without further explanation it simply can't be true. If it were true one would for example, forget how a violin sounds different from a trumpet, I have no trouble identifying one over the other even with long periods of not hearing either one. A much more complex definition is required for this statement to stand.

    The cable argument is complex, one reason the debate rages on for years. Trying to reduce it to a series of sound bytes (ugh, bad pun) won't bring the parties closer together. I'm reasonably sure that both parties to the argument want to understand what is happening. Thousands of audiophiles have spent small fortunes on cables, mass delusion seems like an unlikely explanation.

    While it is true that the desire to hear an improvement after spending a lot of money will color subjective judgment, it is equally true that the desire not to hear a change colors the skeptics hearing in an identical if opposite way.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    I'm reasonably sure that both parties to the argument want to understand what is happening.
    As I've said before, the debate as to whether cables can sound different from another no longer interests me, as it's been resolved. The debate as to WHY cables can sound different IS of interest to me. On the one hand, psychology and mass delusion are invalid, and on the other hand "because measurements don't tell all there is to know about cable sonics" is incomplete. I'd like to know the reasons different cables cause the sound of an audio system to change.

    I feel compelled to also state that I know of absolutely no one... zero, nada zilch, NO ONE... that feels obligated to hear an improvement after spending a lot of money on cables. If there are people that spend money on something without a fairly stringent audition, they probably deserve what they get... or don't get. The people I know and all the tales I've heard or read show that those hearing the differences hear 'em first and then buy.
    Form is out. Content makes its own form.
    -Sam Rivers

    The format doesn't matter. The music is all that matters.
    - Musicoverall

  14. #64
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    A weary debate, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by musicoverall
    As I've said before, the debate as to whether cables can sound different from another no longer interests me, as it's been resolved. The debate as to WHY cables can sound different IS of interest to me. On the one hand, psychology and mass delusion are invalid, and on the other hand "because measurements don't tell all there is to know about cable sonics" is incomplete. I'd like to know the reasons different cables cause the sound of an audio system to change.

    I feel compelled to also state that I know of absolutely no one... zero, nada zilch, NO ONE... that feels obligated to hear an improvement after spending a lot of money on cables. If there are people that spend money on something without a fairly stringent audition, they probably deserve what they get... or don't get. The people I know and all the tales I've heard or read show that those hearing the differences hear 'em first and then buy.
    A few personal observation from The Elf ...
    • Cables do measure differently therefore there is objective reason to believe that they might sound different.
    • Almost every cable maker has some kind of theory of why their cables are better. Which of the totally different technologies and explanations are right?
    • The placebo effect is scientifically accepted. No doubt it can apply before or after you spend your money.

  15. #65
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    To respond to your observations

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    A few personal observation from The Elf ...
    • Cables do measure differently therefore there is objective reason to believe that they might sound different.
    • Almost every cable maker has some kind of theory of why their cables are better. Which of the totally different technologies and explanations are right?
    • The placebo effect is scientifically accepted. No doubt it can apply before or after you spend your money.
    1) Yes, but so far all I've heard is that those measurement difference are below the threshold of audibility... with a few exceptions such as length, high capacitance in phono cables and the like.
    2) I'd have to speculate but my guess is zero; hence, the problem.
    3) Indeed. But if one does a proper audition, it is unlikely to occur after the sale. I have no doubt placebo takes over after a sale if the buyer doesn't do their due diligence in the beginning. In those cases, placebo is hardly their biggest problem!

    The last time I checked in with you, you were running what is certainly one of the nicest theoretical (by my experience) non-stratospherically priced audio systems around. In fact, I recently recommended that someone audition your system, with a different power amp since the Monarchies are hard to find. How's it going? Still getting great sound?
    Form is out. Content makes its own form.
    -Sam Rivers

    The format doesn't matter. The music is all that matters.
    - Musicoverall

  16. #66
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musicoverall
    1) Yes, but so far all I've heard is that those measurement difference are below the threshold of audibility... with a few exceptions such as length, high capacitance in phono cables and the like.
    2) I'd have to speculate but my guess is zero; hence, the problem.
    3) Indeed. But if one does a proper audition, it is unlikely to occur after the sale. I have no doubt placebo takes over after a sale if the buyer doesn't do their due diligence in the beginning. In those cases, placebo is hardly their biggest problem!

    The last time I checked in with you, you were running what is certainly one of the nicest theoretical (by my experience) non-stratospherically priced audio systems around. In fact, I recently recommended that someone audition your system, with a different power amp since the Monarchies are hard to find. How's it going? Still getting great sound?
    MOA,

    I agree that audition before purchase is essential, most of all for components such as cables where the effect (if any ) is likely to be small. If a dealer recommended expensive cables to me without the priviledge to try them at home before purchasing, I'd consider him a crook.

    I hope you're talking about my current system, details of which are up-do-date at the link below.

    I don't think the Monarchys are particularly hard to find. Often they can be bought direct from Monarchy Audio at a substantial discount from MSRP; (supposedly they are "used", refurbs, or whatever). Check out Audiogon.

    What I would really like to try at this point is different DAC. I love to try a Monarchy NM24 or an Audio Note. I'm awaiting the arrival of an M-Audio Revolution 7.1 PCI sound card to try in place of my M-Audio Audiophile USB.

  17. #67
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    Statements like this, don't help. Without further explanation it simply can't be true. If it were true one would for example, forget how a violin sounds different from a trumpet, I have no trouble identifying one over the other even with long periods of not hearing either one.
    Funny, that goes the same for me, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    I'm reasonably sure that both parties to the argument want to understand what is happening. Thousands of audiophiles have spent small fortunes on cables, mass delusion seems like an unlikely explanation.
    And you will never hear anyone say this:

    "Today, I spent several hours comparing zip cord to Nordost Valhalla and honestly couldn't tell the difference"

    Experience typically yields different results than speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    While it is true that the desire to hear an improvement after spending a lot of money will color subjective judgment, it is equally true that the desire not to hear a change colors the skeptics hearing in an identical if opposite way.
    Absolutely. I don't buy expensive audio anything until I've heard it extensively (with cables that means in my systems).

    rw

  18. #68
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Mass delusion unlikely??

    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    ....

    The cable argument is complex, one reason the debate rages on for years. Trying to reduce it to a series of sound bytes (ugh, bad pun) won't bring the parties closer together. I'm reasonably sure that both parties to the argument want to understand what is happening. Thousands of audiophiles have spent small fortunes on cables, mass delusion seems like an unlikely explanation.

    ...
    One religion is much like another in that regard.

  19. #69
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    One religion is much like another in that regard.
    There are a large number of audiophile "tweaks" that have not stood he test of time. Mass delusion would work the same for any of these as it would for cables, yet they're gone from the marketplace.

    While the following all do have their adherent's; CD demagnetizers, disk stabilizers, green felt pens and little wooden blocks most audiophiles have rejected them as not worthwhile. Cables continue to be purchased, reviewed and improved for a couple of decades now. This is no guarantee that they work, it is merely anecdotal evidence. It helps the cables count argument, that the electronic engineer designers of premier electronic audiophile equipment are supportive of the notion. Or are we still debating if one piece of electronics sounds the same as all other pieces?
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
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    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    And you will never hear anyone say this:

    "Today, I spent several hours comparing zip cord to Nordost Valhalla and honestly couldn't tell the difference"

    Experience typically yields different results than speculation.

    rw
    Absolutely. The naysayers compare different brands of zipcord and proclaim that all wires sound the same. If ineed these folks are the scientists they proclaim themselves to be, I sincerely hope they don't operate at their vocations in the same slipshod manner. I've always believed that an objective test is one in which the person testing does NOT tailor the test to back up their own beliefs and biases.
    Form is out. Content makes its own form.
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    MOA,
    I agree that audition before purchase is essential, most of all for components such as cables where the effect (if any ) is likely to be small.
    No argument. I've yet to hear a system that was dramatically changed by cables. Such a system would surely be flawed somewhere in the chain. Absolutely we should upgrade where it makes the most sense and gives the greatest return. Eventually, though, that point is often the cables where a $5000 speaker upgrade is not as cost effective as a $200 cable upgrade... or sometimes even a lower cost cable does the trick.
    Form is out. Content makes its own form.
    -Sam Rivers

    The format doesn't matter. The music is all that matters.
    - Musicoverall

  22. #72
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Not at all

    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    .... Or are we still debating if one piece of electronics sounds the same as all other pieces?
    No, equipment doesn't all sound the same, at least to my ear.

    It was just a cynical remark connecting mass delusion with religion. Mass delusion does happen.

  23. #73
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    I'm as guilty as most for being suckered in to expensive cables. Cables can and do sound different. The question is, how much of a difference? The answer is; not much. Audiophiles, or middle-aged men with nothing better to do, are a perfect target as the sucker brigade. I have spent probably $6k on cables for my system, and quite frankly, I now have realized or admitted to myself that it was an utterly stupid waste of money. This level of crackpottery puts us, as a consumer group, way out on the lunatic fringe. As always, the sensible and right approach is to pick the middle ground. You can by a pair of interconnects for $150-$250 that will sound as good as any $7,500 interconnect. If there are any differences they will be small and you will have to listen hard for them. The sucker will spend the $7,500. The smart one will buy the $150-$250 interconnects. If you want to spend lots on audio, then at least spend it on components and speakers where there is a modecum of cost to value ratio.

    I have a pair of speakers that I have yet to hear bested (in fact they've bested most everything I've heard, and I've heard many of the best). They are wired throughout with professional studio-grade ultra pure oxygen free copper - not silver (although siver is reputed to be the best conductor) or some other weird hyper-expensive alloy. In any concert you've attended, ever, they use sensible tour-grade UPOFC for their cabling. Have you ever heard JBL Hartsfields or 4350 studio monitors?. These are detail machines. As compared to the ultra pure copper cables of today, they use what could be considered lamp cord. In other words, all this hyper-expensive esoteric stuff (and nonsense) is un-neccessary to acheive high performance and if you think otherwise, then you must know something the best sound engineers in the world don't. Unless you want to burn money, don't throw it away on hyper-expensive cables.
    Last edited by O'Shag; 07-07-2008 at 01:37 PM.
    'Lets See what the day brings forth'.... Reginald Iolanthe Perrin

  24. #74
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    You can by a pair of interconnects for $150 that will sound as good as any $7,500 interconnect. If there are any differences they will be small and you will have to listen hard for them
    I'll vote for the second statement's correction to the first. Diminishing returns is found with all sorts of goods. The carbon fiber brake option for the Ferrari Modena runs slightly over $20k. Don't the standard Brembos stop well enough? Not for some.

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    In any concert you've attended, ever, they use sensible tour-grade UPOFC for their cabling. All this hyper expensive stuff is un-neccessary and if you think otherwise, then you must know something the best sound engineers in the world don't.
    Two comments. Actually, as for the concerts I go to most frequently, they don't use any cabling. For that matter, they don't use microphones, mixers, compressors, limiters, reverbs, fuzz boxes, exciters, maximizers, equalizers, crossovers, faders, sliders, amplifiers or speakers either. I hear the musicians playing their instruments. As for those involving sound reinforcement, I have yet to hear any one, including big budget gigs like Madonna's, that don't sound simply dreadful.

    rw

  25. #75
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    968
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    I'm as guilty as most for being suckered in to expensive cables. Cables can and do sound different. The question is, how much of a difference? The answer is; not much. Audiophiles, or middle-aged men with nothing better to do, are a perfect target as the sucker brigade. I have spent probably $6k on cables for my system, and quite frankly, I now have realized or admitted to myself that it was an utterly stupid waste of money. This level of crackpottery puts us, as a consumer group, way out on the lunatic fringe. As always, the sensible and right approach is to pick the middle ground. You can by a pair of interconnects for $150-$250 that will sound as good as any $7,500 interconnect. If there are any differences they will be small and you will have to listen hard for them. The sucker will spend the $7,500. The smart one will buy the $150-$250 interconnects. If you want to spend lots on audio, then at least spend it on components and speakers where there is a modecum of cost to value ratio..
    The diminishing returns equation is hard at work here. I personally would add that money to the electronics (if I had that kind of money). Still if one is fabulously wealthy, who's to say where your money should go. Still I agree, $7,000 is straining credulity.

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    I have a pair of speakers that I have yet to hear bested (in fact they've bested most everything I've heard, and I've heard many of the best). They are wired throughout with professional studio-grade ultra pure oxygen free copper - not silver (although siver is reputed to be the best conductor) or some other weird hyper-expensive alloy. In any concert you've attended, ever, they use sensible tour-grade UPOFC for their cabling. Have you ever heard JBL Hartsfields or 4350 studio monitors?. These are detail machines. As compared to the ultra pure copper cables of today, they use what could be considered lamp cord. In other words, all this hyper-expensive esoteric stuff (and nonsense) is un-neccessary to acheive high performance and if you think otherwise, then you must know something the best sound engineers in the world don't. Unless you want to burn money, don't throw it away on hyper-expensive cables.
    Professional audio speakers aren't that good, most are made to cover a small frequency range that is optimized for a given instrument (guitar or bass amp speakers for example). Others are designed mainly to play very loud. I have met people who though they must be good speakers, but most are peaky (not flat vs frequency). You said it, some are detail machines others are bass pumps, not even a pretense at accurate. They can usually play loud with little compression, but probably will have quite poor dynamic range. Normally professional speakers are used in banks of many, often different speakers with many cables, nothing like a right/left pair for home stereo. Now about professional cables, they tend to be very long and designed to be handled by gorillas (otherwise known as stage hands). Expensive wire makes little sense in that application.

    There are recording studios do in fact use exotic wires, both speaker and interconnect.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

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