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  1. #26
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    I'm kind of impressed. I had not visited this forum for a while, too many entrenched positions, little real discussion. But in this thread there are some thoughtful responses and a noticable lack of name calling. Wow!

    I continue to improve my system and listening room slowly; 1. because it's hard and 2. because I have limited financial resources. As my system improves the whole cable and wire thing seems to become more and more important. Before I was a dedicated WireWorld fan, but now I hear limitations in their product. I woud truly love to audition the insanely priced cables but I'm terrified that they might be better and common sense leads me to suspect that spending more for a cable than for a piece of equipment is sort of crazy.

    Currently I'm running Cardas Golden Presence for interconnects and home made speaker cables: Cardas 9.5 AWG copper Litz for woofer and Cardas 5 nines silver (8 conductors 23 AWG each with Teflon sleeving) for mid/tweet with Cardas Rhodium lugs. I've gone to the Rhodium lugs because I found that contact cleaner really helped the sound and that the cheaper lugs needed a refresher treatment about every 60 days whereas the Rhodium stays clean closer to 6 months.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  2. #27
    Forum Regular fresh954's Avatar
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    Do you think you would pass a DBT when comparing regular DVD video to Blu ray quality video? It would only take me seconds to determine which one was the higher quality source.....Someone mentioned having "setup time to familiarize yourself with the sounds" hmmm....i dont buy it
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  3. #28
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh954
    Do you think you would pass a DBT when comparing regular DVD video to Blu ray quality video? It would only take me seconds to determine which one was the higher quality source.....Someone mentioned having "setup time to familiarize yourself with the sounds" hmmm....i dont buy it
    I don't think the analogy is valid. With a TV image there are many things visible at once on different parts of the screen. Dark to light transistions both vertical and horizontal. Perhaps you might notice noise, but only in the black areas. In short thousands of information points are all visible all at once. While certain parts of an image may move, others are stable for seconds at a time, providing ample opportunity for close examination.

    With audio there is level and time. You have to wait for a transient, you have to wait for a wood bodied instrument to hear harmonic overtones or the decay of notes. Wait for silent intervals or peak levels. These things take time and are of musical necessity short lived, maybe you don't notice the issue the first time. For me the more subtle differences often take several recordings to reveal themselves.

    Like you I can spot the superior picture on a TV set almost instantly, with other than gross effects, I can't do this for audio.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  4. #29
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musicoverall
    That's the part that dooms audio DBT's, IMHO. I seriously doubt I would have passed mine using rapid switching. Most people need to listen long term - despite any comments of the "the new cable blew me away immediately" variety. At least that's what I have found.

    Probably not, because the differences would have been obvious. Aural memory is extremely short.

    -Bruce

  5. #30
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musicoverall
    Are any of these tests published? Not necessarily the ones you've been involved with but any? I searched awhile back and couldn't really find much on the 'net. The few DBT's I found mostly showed null results and the ones that showed differences were the obvious ones (extremely long or thin guage cables, speakers, etc).

    A lot of what is published is through professional societies who charge a fee for copies of the results. You might be able to find someone who is a member and can get them as they have already paid their dues (membership fee )......

    Null results are still results. Just that a relaible difference could not be found and as you say, the obvious one's show that the process works.

    -Bruce

  6. #31
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    TV & Audio are not comparable.....

    because, unless you are blind, you are seeing objects 'similar to' what you will see on a TV every day, i.e. you have real-life visual experiences that develop your reference for judging what you see on a TV.

    An HD Plasma is 'richer' in its colors than is an HD LCD. An OPPO upscaling DVD player with the Faroudja DCDi chip can give a Blu-Ray player a real run for the money. Still, all will clearly (ahem) be visually better than a standard definition TV. Your real-life visual experiences make this an easy distinction for you to perceive.

    Audio is different because many, perhaps most, audiophiles are too busy 'upgrading' and playing with their equipment changes to attend live recitals and concerts. Most audiophiles probably cannot hear when a group is recorded playing in a room with a too-low ceiling. But audiophiles are great at listening to price tags. More expensive is better, right?

    Audio memory, like visual memory, is very long when it has been developed by listening to live acoustic music. Electric instruments, like stereo equipment and loudspeakers, do not seem to offer much long-term audio memory development.

    I attended a Segovia concert in Cincinnati, Ohio c1965 where I sat in the front row center on the first balcony. I was out in free space, if you will. Segovia was magnficent. The next time I heard Segovia was in Hartford, CT c1985 where I again sat in the front row center on the first balcony. Two-thirds through the first half, between selections, I commented to my wife that "something did not sound right". After intermission, Segovia resumed play and after that first selection I commented to my wife that "This is what I remember from Cincinnati". What could have been amiss? The next day, the critic's review appeared in our newspaper wherein it was revealed that Segovia had been playing his brand new $80,000 Spanish guitar for the first half of the concert. That new guitar was reacting to the different humidity in Hartford. Segovia reverted to his 'old' guitar, which was his backup guitar, for the second half of the concert. So a REAL audio memory based upon listening to live acoustic instruments can last for 20 years!

    And if you have developed your own REAL audio memory, you can easily compare a piece of audio gear to your REAL audio memory. Comparing one piece of audio gear to another corresponding piece of audio gear is a waste of time.

    I even bought a guitar made by one of Segovia's students. It is lovely to both look at and to listen to.... a far better use of money than buying expensive wires!

  7. #32
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash

    But audiophiles are great at listening to price tags. More expensive is better, right?
    This one pops up at every discussion about cables or amplifiers. Usually it's the "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" objectivists who bring it up. OK I'll bite, where is the supporting study that shows that this is true?
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  8. #33
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    Who the heck needs a "supporting study"??????

    "This one pops up at every discussion about cables or amplifiers. Usually it's the "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" objectivists who bring it up. OK I'll bite, where is the supporting study that shows that this is true?"

    At the least this seems rather defensive.

    One example: I get emails from AudioAdvisor listing their latest bargains. One recent AudioAdvisor bargain was an upscaling DVD player featuring some rather fancy chips, including the Faroudja chip I had referred to, at 1/2 price- a mere $800. But I gave my daughter an OPPO player built with those same chips, including the Faroudja chip, for Christmas 2006 and it cost me $225, including a $40 three-foot HDMI cable. Now if both DVD players were built with the same innards, how can they perform differently? And how do you justify paying $1600 in 2006 for a player that is built the same way as the $225 player I bought in 2006? This is what I call listening to the price tag.

    I have even read an exchange here between people sorely impressed with $3500 players.

    There are only so many chips available for any manufacturer to pick from because chips are very expensive to develop. Developing your own chips to build your Wonderplayer is simply not practical. So you end up selecting from the same chips available to all other manufacturers. And some of those manufacturers are very price competitive, while others gouge for as much money as they can get because the higher-priced the gear, the better it must sound.... right?

    The majority of consumers would seem to have little sense of value or real understanding of that which they spend their money on. This is why we now have the "subprime mortgage mess", because so many people accepted complicated varible/mixed loans they did not understand and could never repay, and then those loans were bundled up into security packaces which were sold to investors who did not understand what they were investing in. Now we have a real mess. Warren Buffet said things will get a lot worse than most people think, and I agree with him. Buckle your financial seatbelt.

    I always made it my business to understand exactly what I was doing and why. This is why we are in excellent shape these days. I am retired and do what I want to do. We have three sound systems in this house, two full-tubie and one slightly-tubie. I will soon assemble a fourth slightly-tubie sound system. They all are accurate w/r/t live music but I feel only the full-tubie sets offer the proper subtle natural smoothness. And those Russian Winged-C power tubes are great!

  9. #34
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    At $3,500 it is perfectly possible to build your own chips. Devices called DSP are generic arithmetic machines, they can be programmed to perform any arbitrary complex math function at amazing speeds. It is quite possible that they have done this. Actually this can be done at far lower prices, Custom DSP simpler chips can be made for $10.00 (not counting the software development investment). The old style custom IC's you mean are reserved for the high volume houses such as Sony or Mitsubishi.

    From time to time there are indeed bargains, especially with any emerging technology where price has little to do with cost. I paid $1,000 for Toshiba's first progressive scan DVD player (there was nothing cheaper at the time), you can now buy better ones for less than $50. The examples you cite are for consumer products made at thousands per day. High end audiophile equipment does not enjoy these benefits of high volume.

    You are merely parroting others misconceptions and arguing by analogy. Nothing you quote supports the notion that audiophiles are flocking to buy the more expensive DVD player due only to it's high price.

    The Oppo is highly regarded in the audiophile review magazines as a great (and unusual) value for the buck, if the industry believed as you claim the Oppo wouldn't get the high marks. I think one audiophile magazine rated it product of the year.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  10. #35
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    I think you skipped the entire point!

    It is nice to learn that the Oppo has been 'discovered'. I found it "on my own" in 2005, as it were. Perhaps audio/video gear price rationality may develop. Or maybe not.

    You do seem to speculate about how the circuits of "high end" equipment come about and then you seem to view your speculation as a fact:
    "At $3,500 it is perfectly possible to build your own chips. Devices called DSP are generic arithmetic machines, they can be programmed to perform any arbitrary complex math function at amazing speeds. It is quite possible that they have done this."

    And it is ALSO quite possible that 'they' have NOT done this. Chips go well with beer & lemonade!

    But why should we even care? I think you have chosen to ignore my original point:

    "Audio memory, like visual memory, is very long when it has been developed by listening to live acoustic music. Electric instruments, like stereo equipment and loudspeakers, do not seem to offer much long-term audio memory development."

    And.....
    "I attended a Segovia concert in Cincinnati, Ohio c1965 where I sat in the front row center on the first balcony. .... Segovia was magnficent. The next time I heard Segovia was in Hartford, CT c1985 ....... Two-thirds through the first half, between selections, I commented to my wife that "something did not sound right". After intermission, Segovia resumed play and after that first selection I commented to my wife that "This is what I remember from Cincinnati". ....... The next day, the critic's review appeared in our newspaper wherein it was revealed that Segovia had been playing his brand new $80,000 Spanish guitar for the first half of the concert. That new guitar was reacting to the different humidity in Hartford. Segovia reverted to his 'old' guitar, which was his backup guitar, for the second half of the concert."

    I Concluded with:
    " So a REAL audio memory [of Segovia's playing, here] based upon [my] listening to [Segovia's] live acoustic instrument [Segovia's guitar, in concert in Cincinnati, in 1965] can last for 20 years!"

    Finally
    "And if you have developed your own REAL audio memory, you can easily compare a piece of audio gear to [i.e. evaluate its agreement with] your REAL audio memory. Comparing one piece of audio gear to another corresponding piece of audio gear is a waste of time."

    But YOU drag up the "DBT" argument and then claim that I am reiterating tired old arguments about DBT:
    "This one pops up at every discussion about cables or amplifiers. Usually it's the "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" objectivists who bring it up. "

    You must have missed or simply ignored my comment: "Comparing one piece of audio gear to another corresponding piece of audio gear is a waste of time."

    I never made ANY comments about "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist". Unless you consider using a well-honed audio memory of live music as the "measurement criteria" is then applying "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist". Which would be a backdoor argument that everything is relative, buy what you "like" and next year buy all new stuff when you decide you "like something different". This gets expensive.

    Comparing one piece of audio gear to another corresponding piece of audio gear is like trying to build something by comparing one piece of wood to another and then selecting the piece you prefer. Obviously it is better to use a tape measure and "measure twice and cut once". Here the tape measure is an analogy for having a REAL audio memory.

    If YOU have attended enough concerts and recitals to know what REAL LIVE MUSIC sounds like, then all you have to do is make your system SOUND LIKE REAL LIVE MUSIC. There is no need for DBT. And if a system were to sound LIKE REAL LIVE MUSIC using RS Gold then there would be no need for, say, megabuck Cardas ... would there?

  11. #36
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash

    If YOU have attended enough concerts and recitals to know what REAL LIVE MUSIC sounds like, then all you have to do is make your system SOUND LIKE REAL LIVE MUSIC. There is no need for DBT. And if a system were to sound LIKE REAL LIVE MUSIC using RS Gold then there would be no need for, say, megabuck Cardas ... would there?
    I singled out this point, because it seems to be the heart of your position.

    1. I don' disagree, making it sound like live music is a valuable goal.
    2. Live music sounds quite (and measurably) different to a member of the band than the guy in the back row (both may well have systems at home)
    3. I've heard many systems, I've never walked into a house and been fooled into believing there was a live band playing in the other room.

    So we disagree little on the goal, but we do disagree on how to get there. All systems are colored, listening to other systems helps identify which colors are important to you.

    My main objection to a part your earlier post was this notion that audiophiles are fools who don't understand how to spend their money. Certainly some people are "glitz" conscious these same people may own a Ferrari and drive it like a Corrola. But they aren't representative of the whole.

    A specialty industry exists that makes hideously expensive equipment and wires. It has existed for many years. I can't buy the notion that all or even many audiophiles are financial fools. Much of this equipment is expensive enough that well educated people will be the main customers. If most audiophiles aren't fools and they support this industry, the implication is that something valuable is going on.

    That's what my ears tell me and that's why I was caught up in an upward equipment cost spiral. I tried reasonably priced name brands (NAD, Denon) they didn't sound as good as the audiophile systems I'd heard. I moved to Conrad Johnson - much better but their best stuff is vacuum tube based. I'm not that big a fan of wear out and tube "rolling", so now I have Levinson and Pass Labs. I use an Olive Musica as a CD server, but the sound is Levinson because that's how I decode the uncompressd digital files. It's not the best system I've heard, but it is fatigue free, musical and enjoyable with enough detail to hear the room where the music was recorded and little background noises that probably weren't supposed to be in the recording. When non audiophile friends stop to visit, some listen others just don't care. The ones that listen usually comment "wow, it's so clear".

    Clarity without fatigue is a long way along the "sounds like live" path.

    I don't tell people what to get, I tell them options abound. To go and listen and then decide.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  12. #37
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    My reference to audiophiles & their money being parted

    is influenced by the title of this discussion:

    "Speaker cable blind listening tests"

    If your system is a close match to real live sound, using fancy or plain speaker wires won't make any difference.

    If your system is NOT AT ALL a close match to real live sound, using fancy or plain speaker wires won't make any difference.

    Wire listening tests are a waste of time. Expensive wires are a waste of money. I have enough EE background to know this. Wires only need to be sized appropriately. I spent some time managing some generator lines and overseeing the work of EE's & electrical designers simply because I was an ME with EE. I have even been able to troubleshoot a Futterman amp. Hint: watch where you put your fingers at all times or you may hear a very realistic version of the sound of angels.

    Whether you sit in the orchestra or in the audience is beside the point. Even orchestra members are allowed to attend recitals.

    I have been using tube gear since 1974. Retubing is not a big deal at all as long as you pay attention to the details. If you do NOT pay attention to the details, well, ......

    And I can distinctly remember [actually if I close my eyes, I can still see it.....]
    Mr. Futterman pulling one input tube out of MY powered-up Futterman amp and then inserting another input tube to demonstrate that one tube was faulty and the other tube was fine. One result of this activity was some really loud and ugly sounds from Mr. Futterman's loudspeaker. When I commented about the ill effects suggested by those really loud and foul speaker sounds, Mr. Futterman responded "Oh no, these speakers are very hardy". Well, the amp remained fine. Try a comparable trick with your SS gear.

    I did buy a near-new C-J 10B from Gene Rubin on ebay for $600. It is quite nice. I also bought a "demo" ["demo", not demo] Jolida 302B two years back for $800. I replaced the Chinese EL34 tubes with matched Russian Winged-C tubes ($40/pair) and that Jolida smokes now. I think it will compete detail-wise with any SS amp. A Velodyne servo-15 brings up the bottom, so to speak.

    I have had audiophiles stand with their mouths hanging open the very first time they listened to my Futterman-Maggie combo, and longer that the law allows.

    As long as the Russians continue to produce their lovely-performing tubes I see no problems. This is all thanks to the Russian/Soviet use of tubed, instead of SS, electronics. The tubed stuff is heavier but it is also impervious to electromagnetic pulses.

  13. #38
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    i
    Wire listening tests are a waste of time. Expensive wires are a waste of money. I have enough EE background to know this. Wires only need to be sized appropriately. I spent some time managing some generator lines and overseeing the work of EE's & electrical designers simply because I was an ME with EE.
    I am an EE, all my training agrees with you 100%, my ears tell me different.

    I was very resistant to the notion of cables having "a sound". Clearly this was non-sense. An audiophile friend kept pushing me to try his Kimber 4TC. Mostly to please the friendship I took his pair home. I knew for certain I wasn't going to hear any difference during the test.

    Oops, the Kimber cables removed a hash or edge form the sound, it was cleaner less fatiguing. The change was small but noticeable, a neighbor was visiting, he was curious about this notion, he, my wife and I all heard the same change.

    I've never looked back, believe what you want, I could care less. Just allow other's to try for themselves.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  14. #39
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    There are many different religions in this world....

    And the members of each and every religion know, they absolutely know, that they and only they have true enlightenment. All non-members are heretics who will burn in Hell. How can this be?

    The Islamists call the Americans in Iraq "Crusaders". Are the Islamists correct?

    I point out the silliness of an audiophile viewpoint and someone will always claim "I heard it". Well, people have heard many things over the years, or at least they claimed they did. Son of Sam listened to his dog tell him to kill people. Should we believe, or not believe, Son of Sam?

    The follow-on comment is usually, as here, "I've never looked back, believe what you want, I could care less. Just allow other's to try for themselves."

    Well, tell me HOW to NOT "allow others to try for themselves"? This continues to remain, for me, a curious request.

    It isn't my time or my money that you are spending fiddling with wires.... is it? But I sure as hell am not going to encourage someone else to waste their time or money. Encouraging other people, by whatever pursuasion, to waste their time or money is when the "problem" always occurs for me.

    A fool & his money are soon parted. But you usually won't know you have been fooled until after your money is long gone! And you will never get it back.

    I think I had it right before:

    If your system is a close match to real live sound, using fancy or plain speaker wires won't make any difference.

    If your system is NOT AT ALL a close match to real live sound, using fancy or plain speaker wires won't make your system BECOME a close match to real live sound.

    Soooooo.......... why bother? You know, this "hobby" USED to be called HiFi or High Fidelity, as in "High Fidelity to the Original". Not "Let's listen to a bunch of wires, or amplifiers, or whatever, and pick what we like best".

    We use tape measures when we build something. We use a reliable map or GPS when we want to drive to an unfamiliar location. We don't use ad-hoc comparisons.

    If you do not have a firm and reliable reference, then you will never know where you are.

  15. #40
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    Are the Islamists correct?
    And you accuse me of a certain defensive desperation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    Well, tell me HOW to NOT "allow others to try for themselves"? This continues to remain, for me, a curious request.
    You do it by posting exactly how you have.

    I say "I hear", I say "other's hear", I say "try it". You say "You are a fool to fall for this stuff", don't bother because I've made up your mind for you. That's how to spread disinformation. Accuse people of an intellectual failure if they don't agree with you. Make them afraid to try, for fear that they would be accused of being a fool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    "Audio memory, like visual memory, is very long when it has been developed by listening to live acoustic music. Electric instruments, like stereo equipment and loudspeakers, do not seem to offer much long-term audio memory development."
    I let this go earlier, where did you find this gem? Since it was in quotes perhaps you could share the source?

    Most audiophiles like music, they do go to live events. The one thing you will rarely find on this forum is equipment prices or costs. If that were the driving force, a game of one upsmanship would soon develop.

    Many audio "tweaks" have not survived the market test of time, they were in fact debunked as "snake oil". On the other hand, cable companies are thriving. There are probably a hundred of them, many have survived years of selling their product. Since each needs to sell many cables to pay their bills, thousands or tens of thousands must have been sold by now. All those fools, who would have thought?
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  16. #41
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    I'll add my two cents here too...

    hermanv said his system is very clear. How do you measure that?

    A average system causes some instruments to sound congealed in the soundstage while a good system separates them so they sound distinct from one another. How do you measure that?

    Many systems have very little or no depth to the soundstage while some good ones sound like the soundstage goes back to infinity. How do you measure that?

    Some speakers make the sound come from the speaker plane or behind while others seem to extend out into the room to envelope the listener. How do you measure that?

    Some speakers sound smooth while others sound hard. How do you measure that?

    If you listen mostly to di-pole speakers, most box speakers sound boxy irregardless of price. People who don't have dipoles don't hear the boxiness. How can you prove to them that you hear it?

    You can listen to speakers/amps that measure the same, but sound totally different. How do you put that into numbers?

    I just bought a Trends T-amp and the improvement in clarity and separation was astounding. I never expected that from the measurements. I had to go on anecdotal information to make a decision to buy.

    I spent years trying to explain soundstage to my friend and he never understood until he heard it for himself. Now it's one of the most important criteria in his life regarding audio.

    The point is that there are many things in audio that cannot be measured. At least not yet. That doesn't mean that they don't exist.

  17. #42
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Amen to that

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSurprenant
    ...

    I spent years trying to explain soundstage to my friend and he never understood until he heard it for himself. Now it's one of the most important criteria in his life regarding audio.

    The point is that there are many things in audio that cannot be measured. At least not yet. That doesn't mean that they don't exist.
    There are things you hear that cannot be measured by any means we know know of. And I too am finally a subjectivist. But, and it's a big 'but', I'm skeptical subjectivist.

    You hear "trust your ears" all the time (from subjectivists). Well I don't altogether trust my own ears. I'm not altogether confident that my perception isn't biased by expectation. I try to compensate for this by a combination of short, (as short as a few seconds), and long term listening, (hours of continuous listening over several days), before I come to any final conclusion.

    Incidentally, 2/3 of the time my the first impression based on 10-15 minutes of listening is confirmed over the long term, but I never trust such first impressions. On the other hand if I'm not aware of any difference after listening causually for a few hours over a couple of days, I'm willing to conclude there is no difference of any significance. In the past when I've noticed no difference in causal listening, I have resorted to intense A/B comparisions and come to the conclusion that, yes, perhaps there is a tiny difference, a little bit less grain or whatever. Nowadays I deem this a complete waste of time (and potentially money).

    Of course, it is almost completely useless to judge a component under anything but all-else-equal circumstances. And that means, for example, that you can't judge between speakers only in heard in different dealers' showrooms. Nor can you conclusively judge without listening to both components in the same system. And preferably at the same time: my own impressions are certainly affected by mode and my tiredness, etc.

  18. #43
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    If it was easy, anyone could do it and these discussions wouldn't exist.

    I too do both short and long term listening. The way I've been fooled is with interconnects where one brand seems to have more detail, but it turns out that the high end is hyped and in the long term it's uncomfortable to listen to them.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  19. #44
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    Exotic wires are a solution seeking a problem.

    Gee, hermanv, you do seem to look for personal attacks in my posts where none exist. Why?

    I never posted anything close to "You are a fool to fall for this stuff”
    " Nope, never happened. Read through my post again. Slowly, after you take a deep breath. I did post that a fool & his money are soon parted. I did post that you will never get you money back if you are fooled. But this is not calling you a fool.

    “….don't bother because I've made up your mind for you.” Nope… I never posted anything close to an attempt to “make up anybody’s mind”, either for you or for anybody else. Read again.

    But you do seem incensed that I would dare to disagree with your viewpoint about wires and provide my discussion as to why. It would therefore seem that YOU wish to “make up MY mind for me” by “shouting me down”. Or do you merely wish to “make up”, or at least “significantly influence”, the mind of anyone else who “happens by here”?

    Why is it so important to you that others should join you in your quest to pursue the holy grail of wire? Why are you not happy to quietly enjoy your private revelations about wires and let it go at that? Why do you need others to join you?

    The profit margin in exotic wires is tremendous and similar to the profit margins in perfumes. This is how both industries can pay for fancy packaging that conveys the “substantial nature, importance, and desirability” of their product.

    Some companies do survive a long time while others do not. But the survival of one company does not prove the superiority of that company’s product just as another company’s failure does not prove the inferiority of that company’s product. There are many other factors in the continuing success of a company, such as cost control, successful management transitions, and marketing.

    You post that you are an EE, i.e. an Electrical Engineer. In what company, capacity and/or industry?

    40 years experience in industry has allowed me to know MANY engineers of different disciplines. Some engineers were mechanical, some electrical, some manufacturing, and so on. Some were peers and others worked at my direction. Without a single exception, whenever I mentioned audiophiles spending big bucks on exotic wires and listening for the audible effects of those wires on their sound systems, every single engineer rolled his or her eyes.

    Until you, an EE no less, came along. You are the very first engineer I have ever encountered who seems to advocate the “audible importance” of wire selection. Does this observation incense or offend you?

    ..... and I don't do measurements, folks. If I can hear Segovia in concert and I can then remember how Segovia "should" sound, after the passing of twenty years during which I did not hear him play even once, I do not need any stinking measurements.
    Last edited by Mash; 05-05-2008 at 09:45 AM.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    Until you, an EE no less, came along. You are the very first engineer I have ever encountered who seems to advocate the “audible importance” of wire selection.
    No, he's not the first.

    In my Internet travels, I have run across a few other EE's who felt the same.

    Well anyway, this isn't going anywhere except down, so I'm bowing out.

    Have a great day and a better tomorrow!

  21. #46
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    I will stand by my posts on your discourse, I didn't cut and paste each item, but I do believe the essence of what you said was maintained.

    SteveSupranant is correct we don't seem to be going anywhere, there is little reason to involve all the forum members in our disagreement. If you wish to continue the discussion feel free to email me directly.

    I don't know where you are located, perhaps if we happen to live close by, we could arrange a listening session to each others systems? You are hardly the first to feel as you do (nor am I) it would benefit everyone to find some basis for agreement.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  22. #47
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    This discussion went downhill long ago, StevenSurprenant-san

    While I was reading a Fanfare Tuner instruction pamphlet in 1987, I found the admonition that an unbalanced RCA interconnect should not be any longer than twenty-five feet [25 ft]. I was curious about the consequences of such a long unbalanced interconnecting wire, so I assembled enough R/S Gold RCA interconnects plus some R/S Gold female-female couplers to assemble two twenty-six feet [26 ft] long interconnects. Now note that these 26 ft long daisy-chained interconnects had a LOT of pieces plugged into each other.

    Then I used those 26 ft long interconnects to connect a Musical Fidelity CD player to the DeCoursey crossover that fed the Futterman amps (treble/midrange) and Gas Amp (bass) that drove the Tympanis and the Velodyne Servo-15 amp. The CD player provided a controlled signal source. I powered up everything and listened for the results.

    Did the audiophile world, as we would like to know it, suddenly end? Heck, no.

    Was there a “lot of grunge” from those 26 ft long interconnects? Heck, no.

    What WAS the result of using those 26 ft daisy-chained interconnects?

    The result of using those 26 ft long interconnects was a modest dulling of the treble, nothing more. I did not have to develop audiophile-ear hernias to hear that modest dulling of the treble. It was audible but still modest.

    Conclusion: R/S Gold three foot [3 ft] interconnects would cause no audible problems.

    Now I have read web posts by people who waxed eloquently about the joys of using expensive interconnects, and some did claim that they were EE’s. I had problems with their dissertations when I learned they were all employed in the expensive-interconnects industry. So I considered their viewpoints to be a classic conflict of interest.

    As a contrast, the chief engineer at Macintosh Labs wrote a data-filled piece explaining the reasons for not spending on expensive wire. But maybe he wanted us to spend our money on Mac gear, rather that on wire?

    Simply put:
    You do not ask a fox to count your chickens.

    I prefer the full-kimono approach: I want to know how everyone’s personal or financial interests relate to a decision before I even consider their opinions. Only the opinions of a truly disinterested third-party, who has NO hidden agendas, should ever be considered.

    Since I have never been connected to the audio industry, I am truly a “disinterested third-party”.

    I visit this site infrequently so I notice the continual changes in poster ID’s. There is a steady stream of “newbies” who are interested in audiophilia. But whenever these “newbies” discover they have been burned by buying overpriced wires and gear by snake oil salesmen and Carney hustlers, they switch to HDTV where they can SEE what they are getting for their money. They can also learn about HDTV in Consumer Reports. Our eyes dominate our ears, so HDTV renders the audio contribution of the HDTV experience to a very secondary position.

    The audio hobby magazines have been disappearing because the people interested in audio have been disappearing.

    This place was a lot better when people like Skeptic were around to challenge the BS posts and hidden agendas. I had some great catfights with Skeptic but they were in good fun. Skeptic’s intentions were at least honest.

  23. #48
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    Gee, Hermanv, I'm still curious: at what company & capacity you are an EE?

    And I am also curious as to why it seems so important that I should agree with you. Your posts suggest that you seem pleased with your "wire revelations", so why is it important that I should agree with you?

    I really find this odd:

    You fuss with expensive wires, but you avoid tube gear. To me, this is like swallowing elephants while choking on gnats.

    For everyone:

    I am curious how people can read my posts and then launch into their arguments with my posts by bringing in their “questions” about “how to do the measurements” in reference to my posts.

    This is really very odd.

    I “don’t do measurements”, folks, simply because I don’t HAVE to “do measurements”.

    I find it a lot more pleasant to rely on live recitals and concerts.

  24. #49
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    And I am also curious as to why it seems so important that I should agree with you. Your posts suggest that you seem pleased with your "wire revelations", so why is it important that I should agree with you?.
    I don't ask you to agree that wires have a sound, I ask you repeatedly to allow people to listen and then decide for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    You post that you are an EE, i.e. an Electrical Engineer. In what company, capacity and/or industry?
    The innuendo is that I'm lying because I disagree with you? Out of school I worked for Gianinni Controls, my division designed TV studio monitors and monitors for NASA. Next Teledyne; Cameras for NASA and the AEC, In the early 70's I switched to telephony, designing mostly voice interfaces for telephones. I designed the analog voice circuits for all the FAA regional Air Traffic Control centers, currently retired, my last employer was Nokia. I do not now and never have worked for any "high end" audio industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    Skeptic’s intentions were at least honest.
    Wow, you are some piece of work.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  25. #50
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    Gee, hermanv, it would seem that you are the piece of work.

    So I like to know whom I am dealing with. Nothing wrong with that. You are the one who engages in innuendo.

    Re your "I don't ask you to agree that wires have a sound, I ask you repeatedly to allow people to listen and then decide for themselves."

    If you are entitled to push wire theology, dude, then I am equally entitled to point out that wire theology is a waste of time.

    Since I am neither in any position to prohibit any people from fiddling with their wires nor in the least motivated to do so if I could, your comment " I ask you repeatedly to allow people to listen and then decide for themselves." really makes no sense at all.

    I retired from GE. I made it out the door with full benefits.

    I had key parts of the GE90, which is still around.

    I had aircooled generators for Power Gen. I sent the very first "generator kit" to a customer's site, with the full cooperation of GE Field Service people who would assemble it, because the bridges the generator had to traverse had load limits equal to slightly more than 1/2 the generator's assembled weight, never mind what the generator was carried on.

    Putting generators into a country where the power grid frequency continually floats up and down is exciting.

    I changed the oil vapor elimination system for an aircooled generator line because the oil vapor elimination system vendor was supplying butyl rubber sleeves when the spec clearly designated nitrile rubber sleeves, and then the vendor failed to respond to my phone calls when I had 200 customers with their generators down as a result of collapsed butyl rubber sleeves. So I had that vendor "designed out" and the cost of EACH oil vapor elimination system was thereby reduced $6000. We were selling 40 of those generators a year so we had a real cash savings of $240,000 a year. By now, those savings add up to $2,640,000.

    I had numerous key responsibilities for the 9H & 7H steam cooled turbines, you know, the ones with steam cooled first and second stage turbine blades. The H units are way cool, and those turbines only weighed about 900,000 pounds. The operational units are running very well.

    I also had a neat little simple-cycle 108MW unit that offered 50% efficiency. This jewel was designed as a powerplant intended to be built in 4 months instead of the standard two years. It turned out the first plant was actually built in three months.

    Then there was that tunable propeller retention, and there were some other fun things, like the project where, in the process of redesigning the inside of a war machine I got to learn about kinetic energy guns and chobham armour. Fun stuff. There is lots more if I thought about it.

    This debate is, I am afraid, much less important to me than completing the finishing touches on our new dock. I decided it was time for a dock upgrade when I was told that my new boatlift could be locked, which would prevent thieves from lowering the lift and stealing our bigblock speedboat. Maybe next I will spring for an even faster boat- who knows. It's "enjoy life now or never" time.

    Have fun, herm, and stop being so uptight. Life is short enough. Unlax, dude.

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