• 09-21-2004, 04:56 PM
    DcnBlu
    Can Anyone Explain This Thing...
    http://www.oregondv.com/Nordost_CBID-1_Cable_Burner.htm

    or more importantly, why does it even exit? I am lost and in need of knowledge. Can't we burn in our own cables on our own systems? They say the physics behind it, are classified...hummm.

    E-Stat where are you man?
  • 09-22-2004, 05:41 AM
    Monstrous Mike
    "Can Anyone Explain This Thing... "

    I believe the primary concept is to convince people they need it, convince them that it works, charge a large amount of money for it and make a tidy profit.

    Since some people simply do not need nor care for any explanation behind these devices, then evidence or testing or the electrical or physics properties of cables simply don't matter.

    So the quick answer to your question is: NO, and no explanation is needed.
  • 09-22-2004, 06:02 AM
    Worf101
    You don't get it man....
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DcnBlu
    http://www.oregondv.com/Nordost_CBID-1_Cable_Burner.htm

    or more importantly, why does it even exit? I am lost and in need of knowledge. Can't we burn in our own cables on our own systems? They say the physics behind it, are classified...hummm.

    E-Stat where are you man?

    you don't NEED this piece of audio snake oil... but I by God garwontee you're gonna WANT this thing. Look at the workmanship, the skill that went into designing that white box. NOT!!! If I didn't know better, I'd swear it was/is a hoax from some college kids. Matter of fact, that's be a helluva thesis for an advanced degree in sociopsych. See how many buyer you'd get for a ttotally bogus product. How many rave reviews would you garner.

    Da Worfster :confused:
  • 09-22-2004, 08:54 AM
    woodman
    Hear me now and believe me later ... this is a "solution" in dire need of a "problem" to solve. In other words, a scam - a hoax - snake oil - voodoo - audiophile BS. As is the entire subject of "cable burn-in". Whatever changes might take place in a cable (or in any electronic component other than a loudspeaker) is gonna be so infinitesimally tiny and insignificant as to be one helluva joke! And the joke will be on he who believes fervently that some magical sonic improvement is gonna come forth as a result of whatever "magic" is being employed.

    As Mike the Monster Man and Da Worfster have already told you ... you don't need any such device as this - even if it sold for $12 dollars instead of $1200.
  • 09-22-2004, 11:46 AM
    markw
    Well, where does it all go?
    "In addition, the pulsing process is programmed to release gases trapped in dielectric materials during the manufacturing process."

    Cable flatulence, perhaps? Maybe some people are right when they say certain cables stink.
  • 09-22-2004, 02:32 PM
    Woochifer
    $1,200 for a cable burn-in device?! My question to Nordost would be what kind of audible improvement they are trying to claim that this thing can make. I mean at least when people were making claims about how green markers could make CDs sound better, the out of pocket expense to try that tweak cost less than $5.

    When you take a $1,200 budget, there are so many areas where you can apply that budget and hear clearly audible improvements. For that kind of money, you could hire an acoustician and buy some room treatments or do some equalizations that are customized to the specific acoustical properties identified with your room. For critical listening environments like concert halls and recording studios, you always hear about how the acoustics are carefully measured and controlled. I've NEVER heard of any professional using a cable burn-in device and touting it as a difference maker. Comparing the magnitude of difference that a cable burn-in device would make versus acoustically tuning a room, it's almost laughable to mention both approaches in the same sentence.
  • 09-22-2004, 02:34 PM
    Geoffcin
    Explanation; belief in sonic improvement is optional
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DcnBlu
    http://www.oregondv.com/Nordost_CBID-1_Cable_Burner.htm

    or more importantly, why does it even exist? I am lost and in need of knowledge. Can't we burn in our own cables on our own systems? They say the physics behind it, are classified...hummm.

    E-Stat where are you man?

    Cable manufactures have found that cables require a certain amount of time with current flowing through them to electrically stabilize. It's not so much the conductor, but the insulator that aquires a small charge, and then settles into a steady state. Believe it or not this is a scientifically provable effect. Some manufactures have even gone to charging the cable with a battery so as to keep the cable in a constant state of charge. I believe Audioquest makes several of these. What's not yet scientifically provable is the ability to hear the differences. This doesn't seem to stop people going out and buying these cables, and I'm sure Nordost has sold a few of these "white boxes" already.
  • 09-23-2004, 03:21 AM
    Glen B
    Jeez, yet another waste of bandwidth griping about cables. If you believe in zip cord and someone else wants to spend their money on kilobuck cables why do you care ? I own a $4,500 amp, my neighbor owns $18,000 a pair tube amps. That does not bother me, its his money. With more important things like American military personnel losing their lives in Iraq, 911, etc. why are people so obsessed with the claims of cable manufacturers and what expensive cables someone else likes ? To me, this is like always peeping out of your window like some Mrs. Kravitz (if your don't know, don't ask) minding all that goes on at your neighbor's house. Why care ? As long as weird stuff is not going on at your house, that's all that matters. Its not your money being spent. Whom the cap fits.......
  • 09-23-2004, 03:43 AM
    markw
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Glen B
    It's not your money being spent........

    True, but they word it as to imply that everyone needs one of these. How would you like it if they targeted cigarette campaigns at your kids? After all, as long as they don't buy into it there's no harm done, right?


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Glen B
    Whom the cap fits.......

    So, I take it you have one of these and find this chatter disturbing? Buyer's remorse perhaps?
  • 09-23-2004, 02:10 PM
    Geoffcin
    I've moved this thread to the Audio Lab
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DcnBlu
    http://www.oregondv.com/Nordost_CBID-1_Cable_Burner.htm

    or more importantly, why does it even exit? I am lost and in need of knowledge. Can't we burn in our own cables on our own systems? They say the physics behind it, are classified...hummm.

    E-Stat where are you man?

    For everyone to have fun with.
  • 09-23-2004, 02:15 PM
    markw
    A double bounce.
    Perhaps the first in the history of this site? First, it was in speakers (or general, forgot), then to cables and now to here.

    What happened to the responses that followed mine?
  • 09-23-2004, 02:22 PM
    Geoffcin
    As copied from the Audioquest website
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    For everyone to have fun with.


    Important Cable Facts
    Running-In: As with all audio components, audio cables require an adjustment period. This is often mistakenly referred to as "break-in". However, break-in is properly used to describe a mechanical change-engines break-in, loudspeaker and phono cartridge suspensions break-in. A cable's performance takes time to optimize because of the way a dielectric behaves (the way the insulating material absorbs and releases energy), changes in the presence of a charge. Cables will continue to improve in sound or picture quality over a period of several weeks. This is the same reason amplifiers, preamplifiers and CD players also require an adjustment period. The key difference between "adjusting" and "breaking-in" is that things don't "un-break-in", however, electrical components do "un-adjust". Several weeks of disuse will return a cable to nearly its original state.
  • 09-23-2004, 02:25 PM
    Geoffcin
    This is the appropriate Forum
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by markw
    Perhaps the first in the history of this site? First, it was in speakers (or general, forgot), then to cables and now to here.

    What happened to the responses that followed mine?

    For this thread, hence the move.
  • 09-23-2004, 02:42 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DcnBlu
    ...or more importantly, why does it even exit? I am lost and in need of knowledge. Can't we burn in our own cables on our own systems? They say the physics behind it, are classified...hummm.

    E-Stat where are you man?

    Actually, the ad says that the details behind the device are classified, not the physics. I won't even try to explain the physics because that is not my field. I will limit my commentary here because it is only based upon experience.

    I have found that simple use burns in all components over time. Such a device would be useful for dealers or reviewers to expedite the process to address those cable manufacturers who recommend an extended period of use before critical analysis.

    rw
  • 09-23-2004, 03:32 PM
    Tony_Montana
    I don't know why my post got deleted, but here we go again :)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Cable manufactures have found that cables require a certain amount of time with current flowing through them to electrically stabilize. It's not so much the conductor, but the insulator that aquires a small charge, and then settles into a steady state.

    How can you electrically stabilize a cable with a random current? AC current thru the cable is at random state every second, as it is changing in amplitude and current density. So steady stage that you mentioned will never be reached since even the charge insulator acquire to stabilize itself is changing with the direction and amplitude of current.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Cables will continue to improve in sound or picture quality over a period of several weeks.

    If that is true, then what guaranty do you have the change will be for the better. How do you know the cable breakin will stop at its optimum performance? May be the cable will continue to pass its optimum performance stage, and then change for worse.

    If you believe in the benefits of cable breakin, you should also believe the negative aspect of it. You can't have it both ways :)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    This is the same reason amplifiers, preamplifiers and CD players also require an adjustment period.

    I hope you are not putting cables in the same class as amps, preamps and CD players. One is a passive component and the others are active. So there is a difference :)
  • 09-23-2004, 03:41 PM
    Geoffcin
    You are mistaken
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    I don't know why my post got deleted, but here we go again :)
    How can you electrically stabilize a cable with a random current? AC current thru the cable is at random state every second, as it is changing in amplitude and current density. So steady stage that you mentioned will never be reached since even the charge insulator acquire to stabilize itself is changing with the direction and amplitude of current.
    If that is true, then what guaranty do you have the change will be for the better. How do you know the cable breakin will stop at its optimum performance? May be the cable will continue to pass its optimum performance stage, and then change for worse.
    If you believe in the benefits of cable breakin, you should also believe the negative aspect of it. You can't have it both ways :)
    I hope you are not putting cables in the same class as amps, preamps and CD players. One is a passive component and the others are active. So there is a difference :)

    In thinking that I agree with any of these statments. The original post wanted to know "if anyone can explain this thing" and that's what I did for him. You don't have to agree with the theory, but that's what he wanted to know.
  • 09-23-2004, 05:40 PM
    FLZapped
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DcnBlu
    http://www.oregondv.com/Nordost_CBID-1_Cable_Burner.htm

    They say the physics behind it, are classified...hummm.

    That's because there are none.

    -Bruce
  • 09-23-2004, 05:45 PM
    FLZapped
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by markw
    Perhaps the first in the history of this site? First, it was in speakers (or general, forgot), then to cables and now to here.

    What happened to the responses that followed mine?

    Much less my two posts(one of which I reposted) and John Neutron's postings all mysteriously disappeared.....

    -Bruce
    (not amused)
  • 09-23-2004, 05:52 PM
    FLZapped
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Important Cable Facts
    Running-In: As with all audio components, audio cables require an adjustment period.

    And just what, exactly, adjusts?

    Quote:

    A cable's performance takes time to optimize because of the way a dielectric behaves (the way the insulating material absorbs and releases energy), changes in the presence of a charge.
    Please explain the physics behind this and how it can change so much as to become audible. Oh and don't forget to account for shifts in the earth's geomagnetic field. Of course, this completely goes aginst the law of Entropy, so it should be interesting to see how you can not violate this in your explaination.

    Quote:

    Cables will continue to improve in sound or picture quality over a period of several weeks.
    And you have data to back this up I suppose?

    -Bruce
  • 09-23-2004, 11:42 PM
    ToddB
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DcnBlu
    Can Anyone Explain This Thing...

    http://www.oregondv.com/Nordost_CBID-1_Cable_Burner.htm

    or more importantly, why does it even exit? I am lost and in need of knowledge. Can't we burn in our own cables on our own systems? They say the physics behind it, are classified...hummm.

    I can say from personal experience that I hate listening to cables burning in. Yes, it can be done in the system, but then you have to listen to the process as it happens. Some people might not hear the break-in happening, but I do, and it annoys me tremendously.

    One possible explanation about what is happening during this process is listed on the product page for the Audio Dharma Cable Cooker, here:

    http://www.audioexcellenceaz.com/aud...ablecooker.htm

    This is a competing, and significantly less expensive, break-in device. Two more break-in devices, which are both even less expensive, are the FryKleaner models from Hagerman Technology, here:

    http://www.hagtech.com/frykleaner.html

    I have the base FryKleaner model, used it to burn in the last interconnect I got, and it seemed to do the job just fine.
  • 09-24-2004, 05:10 AM
    markw
    Now, whether this has ever been thouroghly tested is another matter.
    Gee, I couldn't say this is the cable forum. I'm glad this thread was moved here. ;)

    Sighted testing simply reinforces the results one wishes to hear. Until some REAL unsighted testing is done with only two accepable responses are allowed. One either:

    a) identifies the broken in item
    or
    b) fails to identify the broken in item

    ...with no pansy excuses such as "I can't tell" or "the stress level is too high". You either got it right or you didn't. If those two reasons are considered valid reasons to exclude the response, then the difference is too slight to be audiable and it counts a wrong answer.

    Simple as that. I'd settle for a rate of 90% correct to be proof of a valid change.

    Until this is done, it's all heresay, wishful thinking, balderdash or technobabble (or any combination thereof) designed to appeal to the gullible who want to believe. Some would even take this one step further and design some devices to take advantage of those who believe to take their money. There's a fortune in religious icons sold daily and I rarely hear of a poor televangelist, except for when they get caught with their pants down, either literaly of figuratively.

    In the simplist terms, it's kinda like having mommy kiss the boo boo to make it all better, only quite a bit more expensive.
  • 09-24-2004, 05:14 AM
    Resident Loser
    I see the heavy-handed...
    ..."deletists" are at it again...

    First the double bounce and then some surgery on the thread...

    MY post(s) was(were) specific in addressing specific question(s) so what gives?

    Still tryin' for the warm-and-fuzzy?

    Are questions that undermine the hype and myth verbotten even here in the "ghetto"?

    I'll pose some of the same to keep it relevant to the issue at hand...

    1. "burn-in" is bogus in this context...look it up inyour Funkin' Wagnalls...

    2. "run-in" is double speak...different words to the same end...double-bogus?

    3. What happens to the factory applied pre-charge during shipping and storage?

    4. If a dielectric aquires a charge doesn't that make it a semi-conductor?

    5. Under what conditions does that supposed "scientifically provable" charge have any effect? In a lab? In a vacuum? At absolute zero? When transmitting data?

    jimHJJ(...pesky thing the truth...)
  • 09-24-2004, 06:38 AM
    jneutron
    deleted my post?....hmmmm.
    When I post at AA, I have found the need to copy the post into my computer, as there are times when the content is not to the liking of a moderator there. I was unaware that it was required here now...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Cable manufactures have found that cables require a certain amount of time with current flowing through them to electrically stabilize.

    No, they have not found that cables require any current induced pre-conditioning...they speculate, but they have not "found". To the best of my knowledge and experience, and that of my co-workers, it is hogwash. nuttin, nada..period. it does not exist from dc to terahertz.

    I will admit my experience is limited to low currents...30Kiloamps, and 1500 amps into #16 wire, 1.14 billion amperes per square meter..perhaps the vendors who claim this are using high currents? Hmmm.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    It's not so much the conductor, but the insulator that aquires a small charge, and then settles into a steady state.

    The fact that an insulator can store a charge is undisputed..I do that with a balloon, on a rug, etc. So that statement is of course, correct.. However, to claim that these free charges can in any way alter the capacitance of the dielectric to the point where audible effects can occur, is entirely unfounded..again, unless someone can provide hard evidence to the contrary (I note that a laughable white paper is in no way considered evidence)..but a burn in signal, AC at that, is incapable of forcing capacitive changes in the dielectric, and is incapable of changing the c/v curve of the dielectric.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Believe it or not this is a scientifically provable effect.

    This is in fact, the reason I even bothered to post under this thread..you invoked science as proof.
    I work with rather large electrical thingys, and have soakage issues when performing dielectric withstanding tests at 5Kv DC. But it is a DC effect..if you model a dielectric, you will note several r/c elements...none of them non linear,and none of them "settle in". In the ele test and safety courses I teach here, I stress this soakage thing, as a hipot test of the ring, after performed, requires a hard short to ground for an hour or so. This because the soakage rise will very quickly exceed the 1/2 c v squared lethal energy level of ten joules.

    I also have worked through issues of small charge, like running a SEM analysis on a semi chip that I did not allow to be carbon coated...the dioxide and nitride passivation layers store beam charge, and tend to de-focus the image..
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    What's not yet scientifically provable is the ability to hear the differences.

    Agreed..

    What I find funny is all this burn in/settling time "stuff".

    Risch, for all his foibles, is closer to reality with his take on dbt than others I have read, IMHO..hearing needs time to reconstruct the imaging..

    When the timing relationships and slew rates of a speaker system are modified, does everybody think the human lateralization construct mechanism is instantaneous?? Hmmm?

    I got news...it ain't..there's a learning curve..the brain has to re-learn how to construct the image, because a two point source virtual image construct does not present the ears with the correct information...we have to learn by practice, how to construct the virtual image..all the while, ignoring the temporally incorrect "sideband" information.

    Lateralization can be tested using headphones, but two speakers introduce unwanted temporal delayed crosstalk..

    When a cd or record is cut, what is the targeted speaker spacing and distance to subject the engineer is working to?? The imaging delays require that information to provide the correct lateralization delays...is that done? What is the standard speaker geometry? A level pan knob is ridiculously inaccurate for image placement.

    Enough..I've introduced about 4 inter-related concepts here, all of which conspire to confound this audio stuff..on most of which, I see only rudimentary handwaving, if any..

    I'm goin on vaca, and with any luck, this post will still be here when I get back..and perhaps, some real discussion?

    Cheers, John

    PS...saved this one...I'm a quick learner..

    PPS..nothing in all this burn in stuff talks about transients and high current/high speed slew rates...it will be interesting when I get my low inductance setup going, to test these "ideas"..a cool academic exercise..after all, nobody really understands this stuff...
  • 09-24-2004, 08:32 AM
    Monstrous Mike
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Important Cable Facts
    Running-In: As with all audio components, audio cables require an adjustment period. This is often mistakenly referred to as "break-in". However, break-in is properly used to describe a mechanical change-engines break-in, loudspeaker and phono cartridge suspensions break-in. A cable's performance takes time to optimize because of the way a dielectric behaves (the way the insulating material absorbs and releases energy), changes in the presence of a charge. Cables will continue to improve in sound or picture quality over a period of several weeks. This is the same reason amplifiers, preamplifiers and CD players also require an adjustment period. The key difference between "adjusting" and "breaking-in" is that things don't "un-break-in", however, electrical components do "un-adjust". Several weeks of disuse will return a cable to nearly its original state.

    This is a good example of something simply made up.

    Try getting this verified by somebody or some institution who has no vested interest in audio. Good luck.

    Much like any other cult, here are the teachings. The teachings lead you down your chosen path. The world is full of people who will try to contradict the teachings and divert the followers from the right path.

    The sad part about cults and other situations like this is that those who have become fully involved can no longer see themselves from outside the situation. They seek support and concurrence with the teachings and resist all contradictions.
  • 09-24-2004, 08:36 AM
    FLZapped
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ToddB
    I can say from personal experience that I hate listening to cables burning in. Yes, it can be done in the system, but then you have to listen to the process as it happens. Some people might not hear the break-in happening, but I do, and it annoys me tremendously.

    Maybe it's you breaking in, not your cables.

    -Bruce