Is gravity stronger in Canada? Pioneer 1014

[NoMSG]

I've been looking at the Pioneer VSX-1014TX. From the appearance and the specs, it appears identical to the Elite VSX-52TX, which is a few hundred $U.S. more.

What's weird is that the web stores all list the weight of the 1014 at 19 pounds, while the Canadian Pioneer website lists it at nearly 34 pounds. This can't be explained away by a pound/kilogram mixup either. I realize that size/mass isn't everything, but I would be hesistant getting a "flimsy" 19 pounder. I can't imagine that the U.S. and Canadian models would be that different.

All kidding aside, this model seems like the deal of the week at about $350 online. Basically, I'm looking to upgrade from my Onkyo 575 (insufficient inputs to handle all my video inputs).

[kexodusc]

I've been looking at the Pioneer VSX-1014TX. From the appearance and the specs, it appears identical to the Elite VSX-52TX, which is a few hundred $U.S. more.

What's weird is that the web stores all list the weight of the 1014 at 19 pounds, while the Canadian Pioneer website lists it at nearly 34 pounds. This can't be explained away by a pound/kilogram mixup either. I realize that size/mass isn't everything, but I would be hesistant getting a "flimsy" 19 pounder. I can't imagine that the U.S. and Canadian models would be that different.

All kidding aside, this model seems like the deal of the week at about $350 online. Basically, I'm looking to upgrade from my Onkyo 575 (insufficient inputs to handle all my video inputs).

Don't think the US specs are right here....could be wrong though.

[evil__betty]

The Pioneer is heavier than the listed 19lbs. Pioneer.ca has it right. However, as good as that reciever is (getting THX certified on a reciever less than $1000 is impressive), I would maybe spring for the Harman/Kardon AVR235 or the Onkyo TXSR602. Both are far superior machines than the Pioneer. Also the Pioneer is a MOSFET and not a High Current descrete amp. You will notice a difference for the extra couple bucks.

[kexodusc]

Also the Pioneer is a MOSFET and not a High Current descrete amp. You will notice a difference for the extra couple bucks.

Could you explain the real world implications of these differences to us common folk? :)

[NoMSG]

The Pioneer is heavier than the listed 19lbs. Pioneer.ca has it right. However, as good as that reciever is (getting THX certified on a reciever less than $1000 is impressive), I would maybe spring for the Harman/Kardon AVR235 or the Onkyo TXSR602. Both are far superior machines than the Pioneer. Also the Pioneer is a MOSFET and not a High Current descrete amp. You will notice a difference for the extra couple bucks.

It's been over 5 years since I shopped for an A/V receiver. At that time, I noticed little, if any, difference in sound quality among receivers at the roughly $500 MSRP price point I was looking at then.

Why do you consider the HK and Onkyo to be far superior? I'm not disputing your assertion, I'm just trying to get more information. Thanks.

[evil__betty]

You will notice that the power rating on the Pioneer is 110W/ch yet the more expensive recievers such as the HK or Onkyo are only rated at about half of that. The reason being is that low current recievers (like the Pioneer) are given that rating if they can peak at the advertised 110W (usually that means that it will peak at a certain frequency for a split second - at full volume). The 'high current' recivers will give you a 'true' RMS wattage at all volume levels, and all frequencies (usually 20Htz to 22,000Htz - human hearing range and even levels that the human ear cannot hear.). The result is a much cleaner, louder, more powerful signal, able to run bigger, more power hungry speakers in the future. You will notice the difference for the extra couple hundred. A/B the recievers at a local A/V store, and see for yourself. The Pioneer is a good reciever, the HK, Dennon or Onkyo, etc are better.

[kexodusc]

You will notice that the power rating on the Pioneer is 110W/ch yet the more expensive recievers such as the HK or Onkyo are only rated at about half of that. The reason being is that low current recievers (like the Pioneer) are given that rating if they can peak at the advertised 110W (usually that means that it will peak at a certain frequency for a split second - at full volume). The 'high current' recivers will give you a 'true' RMS wattage at all volume levels, and all frequencies (usually 20Htz to 22,000Htz - human hearing range and even levels that the human ear cannot hear.). The result is a much cleaner, louder, more powerful signal, able to run bigger, more power hungry speakers in the future. You will notice the difference for the extra couple hundred. A/B the recievers at a local A/V store, and see for yourself. The Pioneer is a good reciever, the HK, Dennon or Onkyo, etc are better.

While normally I'd agree with you if we were talking about Sony, Panasonic, or Kenwood's cheap stuff, Pioneer is actually not one of those companies...They should not be lumped in to the same categorie as these guys.

Here's a good link where Sound&Vision actually did some real world bench testing on a few receivers...you'll be surprise to find that DENON actually fudges their numbers much more than Pioneer...check out the "six channel driven" numbers. You'll see rather quickly that Pioneer is actually "more honest" in their figures...

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/pdf/Equipment/1211equiprep_receivers_lab.pdf

Nothing wrong with the Pioneer...and the on 1014 model is actually a good step on the 860 model.

I don't know why Pioneer EVER got lumped into that lower end category, maybe because they were sold in the same stores?

I can assure you, if you look at unbiased real world bench tests of other, newer Pioneer models you will see that they have every bit as much juice as HK, Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, etc...solid units all the way!

FYI: "High Current" is marketing dribble, doesn't really mean anything when you're talking about receivers...do a search and read one of the many threads on this subject we've had here.

[Mash]

evil__betty

"Also the Pioneer is a MOSFET and not a High Current descrete amp. You will notice a difference for the extra couple bucks."

MOSFETs are usually desired because they are considered to have a more tubelike sonic signature. My main rig has tubie amps, so you know I do not favor excess sizzle.

And what specific traits are you aluding to that define "a High Current descrete amp"? I have a Class A Musical Fidelity SS amp in my bedroom system that produces 2X the RMS power at 4 ohms as it will produce at 8 ohms, so I would classify my MF amp as "a High Current amp"

[evil__betty]

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you that Pioneer make excellent recievers. The fact that a $700 (CAN) reciever managed to get THX certified is definatly an acomplishment! Pioneer, however - just like all companies - do make entry level stuff that doesn't quite cut it compared to other recievers. The 1014 is solid and great bang for the buck. Any reciever will produce twice the power at 4ohms as it does at 8ohms - its called Ohms Law - lower the resistance, increase the power. Where you want to be concerned about is how stable the amp is at lower ohm ratings. On some amps, it will be overload to run them too low.

Regarding MOSFET, it is debatable which one sounds better. Saying that they are more desired is questionable seeing how I have never heard someone ask me spefically for a MOSFET amp. Car amps like Alpine brag about their MOSFET chips that they use and they do sound good. This is an example of where people might ask for it specifically.

Regarding "real world" power ratings. Many, many, companies fudge the numbers on the product. Some do overrate their stuff, some underrate them. In the lab is where the real numbers come out. If your ear can't tell the difference between the amps, save yourself the money, and buy the cheaper one. Just make sure that when you start running higher end equipment, you match them properly so your speakers aren't being under-driven and are being supplied with quality juice.

[kexodusc]

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you that Pioneer make excellent recievers. The fact that a $700 (CAN) reciever managed to get THX certified is definatly an acomplishment! Pioneer, however - just like all companies - do make entry level stuff that doesn't quite cut it compared to other recievers. The 1014 is solid and great bang for the buck. Any reciever will produce twice the power at 4ohms as it does at 8ohms - its called Ohms Law - lower the resistance, increase the power. Where you want to be concerned about is how stable the amp is at lower ohm ratings. On some amps, it will be overload to run them too low.
The reality is many power supply units aren't up to the task of delivering that kind of juice in 4 ohm loads though, that's often the limiting factor, not Ohms law. Krell, Martin Levinson, NAD, Rotel, Arcam, Bryston are examples of companies that don't always see their amps power output double as the resistance decreases by half.

Pioneer's entry level stuff is as good as anyone else's entry level stuff...if someone else stuff is better at that price point, it ain't entry level no more.



Regarding "real world" power ratings. Many, many, companies fudge the numbers on the product. Some do overrate their stuff, some underrate them. In the lab is where the real numbers come out. If your ear can't tell the difference between the amps, save yourself the money, and buy the cheaper one. Just make sure that when you start running higher end equipment, you match them properly so your speakers aren't being under-driven and are being supplied with quality juice.

This is really what it's about. This particular Pioneer unit though is well capable of handling 4 ohm loads. And there's probably few speakers on the planet it couldn't adequately power that any other receiver under $2500 wouldn't struggle with either.. The quality of the current fed by the receiver is fine, the accuracy of the signal might be a different matter.

[NoMSG]

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you that Pioneer make excellent recievers. The fact that a $700 (CAN) reciever managed to get THX certified is definatly an acomplishment! Pioneer, however - just like all companies - do make entry level stuff that doesn't quite cut it compared to other recievers. The 1014 is solid and great bang for the buck. Any reciever will produce twice the power at 4ohms as it does at 8ohms - its called Ohms Law - lower the resistance, increase the power. Where you want to be concerned about is how stable the amp is at lower ohm ratings. On some amps, it will be overload to run them too low.

Regarding MOSFET, it is debatable which one sounds better. Saying that they are more desired is questionable seeing how I have never heard someone ask me spefically for a MOSFET amp. Car amps like Alpine brag about their MOSFET chips that they use and they do sound good. This is an example of where people might ask for it specifically.

Regarding "real world" power ratings. Many, many, companies fudge the numbers on the product. Some do overrate their stuff, some underrate them. In the lab is where the real numbers come out. If your ear can't tell the difference between the amps, save yourself the money, and buy the cheaper one. Just make sure that when you start running higher end equipment, you match them properly so your speakers aren't being under-driven and are being supplied with quality juice.

So, then in what sense are the Harman/Kardon AVR235 and the Onkyo TXSR602 far superior to the Pioneer model? I'm assuming you are referring to the sound quality because the Pioneer has a good durability record and a good (arguably better) list of features.

If you are referring to the sound quality, is it because you have heard this Pioneer model or one of a similar design? Or is because you believe that Pioneer simply makes an inferior product at this price point compared to the Onkyo and the HK?

[evil__betty]

I have the opportunity everyday at work to A/B the recievers. With movies, there isn't too much of a difference. Where you hear the difference is when listening to 2-channel stereo at reasonable levels. I believe that there is a big difference in audio quality - especially at louder volumes (I find the quality superior with the HK and Onkyo). Again, it is not the name Pioneer that I don't like - I think that they make really good recivers - I just think that for the money, the other two are better. If you have the opportunity, listen to all of them with music that you are familiar with (if its a good A/V store, the salesman won't have any problem with you bringing in your own music). If you cannot hear the difference and are not running power hungry, high-end speakers - buy the cheaper unit. Because when it comes down to it, you're the one listening to the music at your home without other recievers to directly compare it to. Just make sure that it matches your speakers accordingly.

[Rock789]

Also the Pioneer is a MOSFET and not a High Current descrete amp.

So what type of transisters are used in most amps? I thought bjt's were a thing of the past and I am not familar with newer amp designs...
I was under the impression good amps used good transisters (being high current mosfet's with "wide" linear areas)

thanks for any info,
Mike

[bcass]

The Pioneer is heavier than the listed 19lbs. Pioneer.ca has it right. However, as good as that reciever is (getting THX certified on a reciever less than $1000 is impressive), I would maybe spring for the Harman/Kardon AVR235 or the Onkyo TXSR602. Both are far superior machines than the Pioneer. Also the Pioneer is a MOSFET and not a High Current descrete amp. You will notice a difference for the extra couple bucks.

Sorry, I don't intend to hijack your thread. :-) But this discussion of the Pioneer receiver vs. Onkyo or HK brought up some questions.

I have an Onkyo 6.1 HT setup that I bought refurbished. It came with the HT-R510 receiver, which I think is equivalent to their TX-SR501. I am happy with the unit, although I never did an A-B comparison with anything else. I was considering the Panasonic SA-XR45 or 70 because of all the internet chatter about digital amps and how they are cheaper, run cooler, play digital sources better, and sound as good as more expensive analog amps. I am planning on playing mostly music CDs and multichannel DVD-Audio through the system, with some movies and PC games thrown in occasionally (I'll have my computer connected via SPDIF). So I'm wondering if I should just go for the tried and true Onkyo or equivalent in my $300-$400 price range.

Thanks!
Bryan

[Geoffcin]

I've been looking at the Pioneer VSX-1014TX. From the appearance and the specs, it appears identical to the Elite VSX-52TX, which is a few hundred $U.S. more.

What's weird is that the web stores all list the weight of the 1014 at 19 pounds, while the Canadian Pioneer website lists it at nearly 34 pounds. This can't be explained away by a pound/kilogram mixup either. I realize that size/mass isn't everything, but I would be hesistant getting a "flimsy" 19 pounder. I can't imagine that the U.S. and Canadian models would be that different.

All kidding aside, this model seems like the deal of the week at about $350 online. Basically, I'm looking to upgrade from my Onkyo 575 (insufficient inputs to handle all my video inputs).

I use Pioneer receivers exclusively. I have two running right now, an Elite, and a VSX811s.
From the early 90's up until this year there was no question that if you wanted the top quality & power, you had to buy from the Elite line. Now the line has been blurred a bit, but there's still reasons to go with an Elite. One it the warrenttee. On Elites it's two years, as opposed to one for the standard line. Two is looks, although the VSX-1014tx is a good looking unit, I don't like the look of lower models with the exposed buttons.

From what I've seen, It looks to me that Pioneer is going to go with an all "Txi"
lineup for the Elites next year and drop the Elite "TX" line completely. This is a markeing move for them as it will make the Elites a dedicated "Pioneer system" receiver. The only problem for the consumer is that to take advantage of this feature you'll have to buy a Pioneer DVD & CD player that has the iLink connector, and these are also a bit more expensive.