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topspeed
02-18-2005, 11:22 PM
I am in desperate need of my AR brothers assistance. My plans to upgrade to a widescreen HDTV later this year have been dramatically accelerated with the untimely death of my bedroom tv. For some unknown reason, the 5 yr. old Toshiba just gave up the ghost; it simply stopped working. My plan all along has been to move the 32 Hitachi from the living room into our BR, although I was hoping to do this in the summer or fall. Plans have changed.

While speakers are subjective, TVs are not. Correct? A good picture is not subject to interpretation. Ive got 50 of clearance to work with and absolutely dont want LCD. Ive seen the screen door effect in full force during the Rose Bowl and it drove me nuts. Im also not jazzed about plasma due to durability concerns. That leaves me with LCOS/D-ILA, DLP, or CRT RPTVs. It needs to be 16:9 and HD ready as Ill also be upgrading my Dish Network STB to HD. Id like to keep the price under $4K if possible, but I will stretch if its worth it. Im completely in the dark as far as the importance of HDMI, DVI, or other stuff I should be looking for so any insight would also be appreciated.

So far, the best picture Ive seen goes to the JVC D-ILA set. Of course, this isnt a very fair comparison as it was in Sears and could very well have been set to kill. I'm also not sold on JVC quality. I love my Ultravision Hitachi and havent had a lot of luck durability wise from Mits or, obviously, Toshiba (the latter really, really surprised me), but I wont necessarily write them off.

I need your help guys/gals as the wife wont make it through the weekend without a tv in the bedroom (we have vastly different ideas on entertainment).

HELP!!!

drseid
02-19-2005, 07:54 AM
Sorry to hear about the untimely demise of your bedroom set Top...

While I could not keep mine, as I see rainbow effects on all DLP RPTV sets (so I had to go to a Sony RPTV LCD), I loved the picture of the Samsung 50 inch pedestal DLP set (AKA "The Kirk"). The set is very futuristic looking, but I think it is cool... That, and I liked the height the pedestal gave the set. Picture quality was also quite good (until I realized I saw rainbows). Overall maybe not the best value, but certainly one of the best performers in its class.

If you (or your friends and family)don't see the rainbow effect, I can highly recommend it.

---Dave

Lensman
02-19-2005, 01:39 PM
I am in desperate need of my AR brother�s assistance. My plans to upgrade to a widescreen HDTV later this year have been dramatically accelerated with the untimely death of my bedroom tv. For some unknown reason, the 5 yr. old Toshiba just gave up the ghost; it simply stopped working. My plan all along has been to move the 32� Hitachi from the living room into our BR, although I was hoping to do this in the summer or fall. Plans have changed.

While speakers are subjective, TV�s are not. Correct? A good picture is not subject to interpretation. I�ve got 50� of clearance to work with and absolutely don�t want LCD. I�ve seen the �screen door� effect in full force during the Rose Bowl and it drove me nuts. I�m also not jazzed about plasma due to durability concerns. That leaves me with LCOS/D-ILA, DLP, or CRT RPTV�s. It needs to be 16:9 and HD ready as I�ll also be upgrading my Dish Network STB to HD. I�d like to keep the price under $4K if possible, but I will stretch if it�s worth it. I�m completely in the dark as far as the importance of HDMI, DVI, or other stuff I should be looking for so any insight would also be appreciated.

So far, the best picture I�ve seen goes to the JVC D-ILA set. Of course, this isn�t a very fair comparison as it was in Sears and could very well have been set to �kill.� I'm also not sold on JVC quality. I love my Ultravision Hitachi and haven�t had a lot of luck durability wise from Mits or, obviously, Toshiba (the latter really, really surprised me), but I won�t necessarily write them off.

I need your help guys/gals as the wife won�t make it through the weekend without a tv in the bedroom (we have vastly different ideas on entertainment).

HELP!!!

Certainly annoying timing. I'd go the same route if that happened to me, but for now my aging SD CRT continues to soldier on. Like you, I've been waiting for both the price to come down, and the technology to improve. So consider what I have to say as information from someone who's been trying to keep up with things, but doesn't actually own an HDTV.

While HDTVs have gotten better in terms of quality, it still doesn't seem like the various display technologies have really matured and gotten all their bugs out. As you've already noticed, every type of HDTV technology available has drawbacks when compared to standard CRT technology in terms of picture quality and/or life/durability.

To answer your question, picture quality is definitely less subject to interpretation than speakers. Though it does vary from set to set, here's my understanding of how things are in general (discounting the plasma you aren't interested in):

CRTs still offer the best picture quality because of their ability to produce both bright images and dark blacks. They have long life and durability, aren't overly affected by ambient lighting, and require little maintenance. They are also bulky and susceptible to glare and burn-in. But the biggest direct view 16:9 CRT anybody makes is 38" and front projection models tend to be more expensive than LCD or DLP.

LCDs are as thin as plasmas, giving them the sex-appeal needed to have manufacturers converting CRT factories to LCD and ramping up production in spades. They are brighter than DLPs, so aren't as affected by ambient lighting. They also have a very wide viewing angle and require little maintenance. But their pixels are often spaced farther apart, resulting in the "screen door" effect, and they cannot produce blacks as dark as DLPs. Like DLPs, they don't suffer from burn-in. If size is an issue, note that it's difficult to find LCDs bigger than around 45".

DLPs are very popular because of their their ability to offer large, plasma-sized screens. So if you're trying to get the biggest picture you can for the money and not buy plasma, this is the tech for you. DLPs are not as bright as LCDs and CRTs, so are more affected by ambient light. Their viewing angle is not as wide as LCD and they use lamps that can dim over time and must be replaced periodically. They produce deeper blacks than LCD or plasma. Their closer pixel spacing avoids the prominent "screen door" you've seen on LCDs.

Many DLPs suffer from "rainbow". This is an effect caused by single-chip displays that utilize a spinning color wheel. Rainbow appears as a prismatic after-image that's noticed for a fraction of a second when you change your focus from one part of the screen to another. It's not something you'll see when looking at something directly on the screen. But it can be something always visible on the edge of your peripheral vision. The way to avoid this is to go with a three-chip DLP design, which doesn't use the spinning wheel.

As far as DVI and HDMI are concerned, both offer the same picture quality and work by sending the digital signal from you satellite box or DVD player directly to the set. HDMI differs from DVI in that it sends the audio as well, so you just have one cable. HDMI appears to be the future in HDTV connections. But adapters between DVI and HDMI are widely available, so I'd tend to be less concerned about these connectors.

The JVC set you've looked at, I assume the 52", is one of the newest HDTV offerings. As you've noticed, it varies from most DLPs by utilizing LCoS technology to generate its picture (though JVC calls it D-ILA). This is the same technology Woochifer was avidly following until Intel threw in the towel on it. It's apparantly somewhat difficult to manufacture as RCA, Philips and Toshiba have also given up on it. JVC's sets use a lamp that JVC rates for 6,000 hours. Replacements cost around $250. The D-ILA sets have gotten decent reviews for their color accuracy and a brightness level that higher than many DLPs. They are three-chip designs, so rainbow is not an issue with them. I don't think anyone has any idea how durable/long lasting these sets may be.

Hope this helps get you started.

topspeed
02-19-2005, 03:44 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm narrowing down my choices and so far, I like the 52" JVC HD52Z575 D-ILA, a 52" Mits WD 52725 DLP (which has the same DLP2 chipset that just got rave reviews in the 65" Diamond version, just without the 120mb onboard hard drive), a Mits Diamond WS 55815 CRT RPTV (which I like because it has an anti-glare screen), and I'd like to throw a Hitachi set in there just because I love my Ultravision direct view so much. Unfortunately, sifting through their nomenclature is pretty confusing. Any help on Hitachi would also be greatly appreciated.

Woochifer
02-19-2005, 08:02 PM
Congrats ... errrr ... sorry to hear about your loss! :D

If you don't need/want to wall-mount your TV, then you got a lot of options to pick from. And actually, this is supposed to be the best time of year to buy a TV. The Super Bowl and holiday season buying binges are over (the week before the Super Bowl is supposedly the biggest period for TV sales), and a lot of manufacturers use this time of year for new model introductions. So, you got closeout deals, new models, and stores that need to pull in customers.

It really comes down to how big you want the TV, how much you're willing to spend, and whether you want to wall-mount it.

I've mostly heard raves about the JVC D-ILA sets, and in my brief viewings, it looks very impressive. From what I understand, JVC's D-ILA sets are the best of the LCOS-based TVs that have come out so far. The next step for JVC is supposedly to get these sets thin enough to wall-mount. As Lensman already pointed out, LCOS was supposed to be all the rage right now because of Intel's pronouncements from a year ago. But, now that Intel has cancelled their LCOS program, LCOS just gives you another technology among several to consider. Intel's LCOS chip was supposed to allow for quality on par with existing technologies, but at a fraction of the cost. As it is right now, JVC's LCOS sets cost about the same as the others, so you'll have to evaluate it on picture quality.

I've also been impressed with what I've seen with DLP RPTV sets as well. The only drawback is indeed that rainbow effect that you occasionally see. What I like about both DLP and LCOS, compared to CRT RPTVs, is that they seem to view better from off-angles. The CRT RPTVs look fine when you view them straight in, but they seem to deviate the most if you move to a different location. CRT's main advantage is basically cost value. You get a lot of TV for the money, and it's reliable tested technology. The drawback is that huge cabinet and the off-angle viewing.

Another issue to consider is how good the picture can look using only the user-accessible controls. All TVs benefit with a calibration DVD, and all TVs benefit from professional calibration, but some TVs need the professional calibration more than others, while others can look almost as good using just the user-accessible settings. This might be something to take over to the AVS Forum, since they got some guys there who have experience with ISF calibration.

I think there is some subjectivity involved with evaluating TVs, but you need to make sure that they are calibrated to similar settings. So far, I've been mostly looking at plasmas and LCD because my wife and I decided on getting something that can be wall-mounted (or mounted onto a plasma stand).

topspeed
02-19-2005, 11:47 PM
Another issue to consider is how good the picture can look using only the user-accessible controls. All TVs benefit with a calibration DVD, and all TVs benefit from professional calibration, but some TVs need the professional calibration more than others, while others can look almost as good using just the user-accessible settings. This might be something to take over to the AVS Forum, since they got some guys there who have experience with ISF calibration.
I won't be wall mounting so that's a non-issue. Where I'm going to put my massive center channel OTOH, is a big consideration and one that favors the big cabinets of crt rptv's to place it on. There are only two issues I have with crt rptv's, and you hit both of them: Off axis viewing and calibration. Because of the idiotic layout of my lr, the fireplace is smack dab in the center of the wall with a niche to the left of it where the tv goes. This forces you to watch about 3-5' right of the screen. This isn't a big deal with my current set-up because the I can swivel the TV on it's base. I won't be able to do this with a bigscreen.

Calibration is the other big factor. I love Hitachi TV's and would lean towards one of their big screen offerings but have read horror stories in TPV about how they are completely out of whack straight out of the factory and an ISF calibration is mandatory. I've also heard getting a qualified ISF guy to do it, especially in the middle of Podunk, USA where I live, can run $800-$1,000(!). WTF?!? You lay out $3-4K for a tv and then another $1K to make it work right??? That's just wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong, but fixed pixel displays don't need to be calibrated in the same manner that crt rptv's do, right? I'm thinking I can get away with a S&V disc to dial it in. Tell me if I'm mistaken.

godfatherofsoul
02-20-2005, 12:23 AM
(Quote)Many DLPs suffer from "rainbow". This is an effect caused by single-chip displays that utilize a spinning color wheel. Rainbow appears as a prismatic after-image that's noticed for a fraction of a second when you change your focus from one part of the screen to another. It's not something you'll see when looking at something directly on the screen. But it can be something always visible on the edge of your peripheral vision. The way to avoid this is to go with a three-chip DLP design, which doesn't use the spinning wheel.(Quote)

Actually, only a small percentage of people see the rainbow effect... This has been reduced even more with the new chips (HD2+ and HD3)
As for TVs, I'm partial to Mits but see no problem with Hitachi. Be wary of the cable card technology though as it only offers one way communication with your cable compnay and you don't get a channe; guide with it...
Cheers.

AVMASTER
02-20-2005, 02:23 PM
. Correct me if I'm wrong, but fixed pixel displays don't need to be calibrated in the same manner that crt rptv's do, right? I'm thinking I can get away with a S&V disc to dial it in. Tell me if I'm mistaken.[/QUOTE]
Fixed pixel displays don't need convergence like RPTVs but all display devices could benefit from calibration; try one of the disc b-4 calling ISF.
As far as display choices are concerned, have you seen the Hitachi VS series? Yes it is a RPLCD HDTV but setup correctly (away from the windows) , this set can be an excellent value ( cost vs. size, reliability, maintenance, etc..) The JVC HD-ILA with its' densier pixel structure and ( extremely) bright picture would be a great choice but limited jacks, and definitely needs calibration

evil__betty
02-20-2005, 10:14 PM
If you are leaning to CRT projo's - buy the Hitachi 51F510. hands down, one of the best projo's out there. With their 1080p chip, auto-convergence system (best in the market), anti-glare/screen protector and far superior guns than Toshiba, Hitachi stands out. Hitachi also manufactures 63% of the markets guns - meaning companies like Toshiba, RCA, Samsung, all buy Hitachi guns. Now, Hitachi isn't stupid - they keep the better guns for themselves. Personally, I wouldn't buy a TV that makes cars, nor would I buy a car if it were made by an electronics company - even if it looked nice, cause its the guts that count!

I have sold six of the JVC HD-ILA's and from those six, four (4) have been defective - not a good track record. Unfortunatly, they do look good. But see the above line - its the guts thats important. I personally, have not had any return on a Hitachi (CRT or LCD) due to defect. They simply are better.

If you buy a DLP, buy a Samsung. By far, the best on the market. Their 4th gen chip kills all the others out there. Until someone can make a better DLP chip than Texas Instruments, Samsung is THE way to go. There is the HLP5685 and the HLP5674W that utilize that chip. The '63' series still looks fantastic, but the 3rd gen chip isn't as good.

I can't see the rainbow or the flicker that others claim to see - and if you can't either, than go for it and pick one up.

topspeed
02-21-2005, 10:02 AM
As far as display choices are concerned, have you seen the Hitachi VS series? Yes it is a RPLCD HDTV but setup correctly (away from the windows) , this set can be an excellent value ( cost vs. size, reliability, maintenance, etc..) The JVC HD-ILA with its' densier pixel structure and ( extremely) bright picture would be a great choice but limited jacks, and definitely needs calibration
I haven't seen the VS series but as mentioned, I have seen the screen door effect in action on two different LCD rptv's and it drove me nuts. It isn't as noticeable in HD, but it was really bad in SD.

When you say the D-ILA need calibration, are you talking about ISF or can I do a competent job with a S&V or Avia disc?

Thanks for your help.



I have sold six of the JVC HD-ILA's and from those six, four (4) have been defective - not a good track record. Unfortunatly, they do look good. But see the above line - its the guts thats important. I personally, have not had any return on a Hitachi (CRT or LCD) due to defect. They simply are better. This is exactly what I was afraid of. If there are any other dealers with the same experience, I hope they chime in. I knew about the Hitachi guns and trust me, you don't have to sell me on their sets as I am the proud owner of an Ultravision direct view that is simply awesome.


If you buy a DLP, buy a Samsung. By far, the best on the market. Their 4th gen chip kills all the others out there. Until someone can make a better DLP chip than Texas Instruments, Samsung is THE way to go. There is the HLP5685 and the HLP5674W that utilize that chip. The '63' series still looks fantastic, but the 3rd gen chip isn't as good. If I go DLP, I was leaning toward the Mits 51725 which utilizes the HD2+ chipset and 7 segment color wheel. The big brother to this set just received a rave review in TPV and it uses the exact same internals. My only concern here is that my last Mits crt tv died after only 7 years. What do you think of this set?

AVMASTER
02-21-2005, 01:51 PM
[QUOTE=topspeed]I haven't seen the VS series but as mentioned, I have seen the screen door effect in action on two different LCD rptv's and it drove me nuts. It isn't as noticeable in HD, but it was really bad in SD.

When you say the D-ILA need calibration, are you talking about ISF or can I do a competent job with a S&V or Avia disc?

As a JVC dealer we couldn't wait to get our first couple of HD-ILA 52" and 61". Out of the box it had a very noticable red push and of course in " torch mode ". Using the Avia disc I was able to tone it down with very realistic results. I've personally sold three with no problems at all. While i'm sitting here typing this the 52" version is right behind me and i must say its DAMN bright

Woochifer
02-21-2005, 02:04 PM
I won't be wall mounting so that's a non-issue. Where I'm going to put my massive center channel OTOH, is a big consideration and one that favors the big cabinets of crt rptv's to place it on. There are only two issues I have with crt rptv's, and you hit both of them: Off axis viewing and calibration. Because of the idiotic layout of my lr, the fireplace is smack dab in the center of the wall with a niche to the left of it where the tv goes. This forces you to watch about 3-5' right of the screen. This isn't a big deal with my current set-up because the I can swivel the TV on it's base. I won't be able to do this with a bigscreen.

Yup, it seems that the narrower cabinet on the DLP and LCOS TVs have created made them less than ideal for supporting the center speaker. That's part of the reason why I've opted to go with a wall-mountable option for my next TV. If the fireplace is in the middle of the room, you could install or build a support above the fireplace for the center speaker. DLP and LCOS TVs do allow you to swivel the base.


Calibration is the other big factor. I love Hitachi TV's and would lean towards one of their big screen offerings but have read horror stories in TPV about how they are completely out of whack straight out of the factory and an ISF calibration is mandatory. I've also heard getting a qualified ISF guy to do it, especially in the middle of Podunk, USA where I live, can run $800-$1,000(!). WTF?!? You lay out $3-4K for a tv and then another $1K to make it work right??? That's just wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong, but fixed pixel displays don't need to be calibrated in the same manner that crt rptv's do, right? I'm thinking I can get away with a S&V disc to dial it in. Tell me if I'm mistaken.

The going rates I've seen for ISF calibration are somewhere around $400-500, but that rate only includes one video mode. This means that separate calibrations are done for standard definition, and for each HD mode that you plan to use. I thought that there were several ISF technicians that work your neck of the woods. Might want to check the ISF website for a listing. There's another website I found a while ago that had listings of ISF techs as well. I'll see if I can remember the site and post it.

I know that CRT front projectors are more complicated to calibrate because they need to be reaimed as well as recalibrated for color levels. I'm not sure about CRT RPTVs.

With a HDTV, I would go with one of the calibration discs that use three color filters such as Avia or Digital Video Essentials, because you typically got more color adjustments available with HDTVs. The S&V disc uses a single blue filter, which is fine with older analog TVs like mine which have more limited adjustments available, but might not be sufficient for newer TVs.

topspeed
02-21-2005, 05:43 PM
With a HDTV, I would go with one of the calibration discs that use three color filters such as Avia or Digital Video Essentials, because you typically got more color adjustments available with HDTVs. The S&V disc uses a single blue filter, which is fine with older analog TVs like mine which have more limited adjustments available, but might not be sufficient for newer TVs.Cool stuff. I had no idea there was a difference between the S&V and Avia disc. Thanks Wooch.


AVMASTER,

Thanks for the encouraging info on the JVC's. I've posted the same question at avsforum to see if the dealers over there are having quality issues as well. Because my room has windows all the way along the side wall as well as windows across the back wall, brightness is a very real concern. Most people see to think that overly bright rooms and crt rptv's don't get along real well, a situation that favors either DLP's or LCoS.

Woochifer
02-22-2005, 12:24 PM
Personally, I wouldn't buy a TV that makes cars, nor would I buy a car if it were made by an electronics company - even if it looked nice, cause its the guts that count!

Well, Hitachi doesn't make cars, but they do make very nice forklifts, dump trucks, and earthmoving equipment. And a contractor I know swears by his Hitachi power tools as well. Plus, the Hitachi hard drive on my laptop is two years in and still going strong.


I have sold six of the JVC HD-ILA's and from those six, four (4) have been defective - not a good track record. Unfortunatly, they do look good. But see the above line - its the guts thats important. I personally, have not had any return on a Hitachi (CRT or LCD) due to defect. They simply are better.

If true, that's too bad about the JVC HD-ILA TVs. It would be interesting to see if the reliability improves down the line. In the stores, they look very impressive and the price is very competitive. Have you heard anything about how the JVCs compare to Philips' LCOS TVs in terms of picture and reliability?

At the store where my friend used to work, he got similar failure rates from the Sony Wega TVs.

Woochifer
02-22-2005, 12:36 PM
topspeed -

Here's the website I referred to earlier:

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/index.htm

They focus only on HDTV and post a lot of technical information about individual TV models, including known issues/defects, tweaks, and instructions on how to get into the service menus (this is what the ISF calibrators use to make their adjustments, and it's hazardous information to have if you don't know what you're doing!). You can also use their forum to find an ISF calibrator in your area.

evil__betty
02-22-2005, 01:02 PM
If you have the chance, you should really check out Hitachi's VS cinema series. They use a 25 element lens system as opposed to the 11 in the V series and 9 in the Sony Wega. The 50VS810 is fantastic and kills the other LCD's on the market. Look into it.



Well, Hitachi doesn't make cars, but they do make very nice forklifts, dump trucks, and earthmoving equipment. And a contractor I know swears by his Hitachi power tools as well. Plus, the Hitachi hard drive on my laptop is two years in and still going strong

Yeah, thats my bad - I did not look far enough into Hitachi's site regarding construction equipment - stupid comment.


At the store where my friend used to work, he got similar failure rates from the Sony Wega TVs.
I have had the similar experiences at my store as your friends place.

Woochifer
02-22-2005, 04:43 PM
Yeah, thats my bad - I did not look far enough into Hitachi's site regarding construction equipment - stupid comment.

No prob, consider it some friendly hazing. Just caught your comment on the other thread as well. Looks like you got a lot to bring to the forum, so welcome aboard!

evil__betty
02-23-2005, 02:20 PM
Thanks.

learning lots about brands that I haven't had any experience with. Glad to be here.

topspeed
02-23-2005, 02:46 PM
Thanks for the link Wooch. I'll poke around and see what I can find.