Separate PreAmp???

[T-Bone]

I have a quick question. I am wanting to get a budget turntable system, and I am wondering if it is worth getting a separate pre-amp? I have a creek 4330 MKII integrated amp that I am quite happy with, so I was wondering what the point of a phono-specific preamp is. Does it cut down on static? The question came to me after looking at the NAD website, which "recommends" their preamp with thier turntable.

Thanks... T-Bone

[royphil345]

A separate phono preamp is required to boost the signal and apply proper RIAA equalization when you don't have a phono input (built-in phono preamp) on your preamp / integrated amp / receiver. Some people add a separate phono preamp to get better performance than they can get out of their built-in phono preamp.

Luckily for you, The MkII model has a very nice built-in phono stage. Which is no surprise since Creek is known for making very good separate phono preamps in the lower to mid price ranges.

My advice for anyone getting into vinyl on a lower budget is not to overlook vintage turntables. You can usually pick up a table for around $100.00 that will outperform new tables that sell for much more. Some of these older tables were built very well and I find that reliability is seldom an issue.

I've got a Rotel RP-955 in the closet. Was the last turntable Rotel made. Cost me $400.00 a few years back. Spinning my vinyl on an old Sony PS-X5 (some sort of plastic, but weighs about 30 pounds) now. Sound is more detailed while also having a little more warmth. And the speed is always dead-on. (was forever adjusting the Rotel)

[T-Bone]

Thanks for the reply... but I would like to know how to select a used model. A friend of mine has an old turntable, and it is a piece of garbage... most of the sound coming out of it is static. Is it possible to just replace the cartridge and needle to improve sound, or is the base partially responsible for distortion? I have checked on ebay, and there are about 500 models up for auction. What is the best way to discern a winner from a loser?

Later... T-Bone.

[dean_martin]

I have a quick question. I am wanting to get a budget turntable system, and I am wondering if it is worth getting a separate pre-amp? I have a creek 4330 MKII integrated amp that I am quite happy with, so I was wondering what the point of a phono-specific preamp is. Does it cut down on static? The question came to me after looking at the NAD website, which "recommends" their preamp with thier turntable.

Thanks... T-Bone

At one time, NAD included a decent phono section in their integrated amps and even in their older stereo receivers. I don't think they include built-ins anymore. That's probably why they're pushing their seperate phono preamp. BTW, I'm not sure whether a phono preamp has much effect on static. I think static has more to do with grounding and your listening environment (and sometimes weather).

Start out with your built-in in your Creek, if it has one. Go ahead and get your turntable and cartridge first. I agree with Royphil's suggestion on older/used turntables with one caveat - you should be satisfied with the condition before you buy and if it has to be shipped to you, make sure you're comfortable with the seller's packing. Also, if you buy used, plan on budgeting for a new cartridge, too. If it just so happens that the cart that comes with the used table has low hours and is still in good condition, then you've saved some money (until you're ready to upgrade, of course). Old Duals and Thorens tables are usually good buys. I also like the old wood-based Marantz players. Older Harman/Kardon and Denon tables are cool looking, IMO, but some of their models had lots of features that may have failed over time (the quartz lock or drive feature on H/K tables, for example). Some of the regulars here can recommend many older tables to look for.

As far as newer tables, I have a Pro-Ject 1.2 (after running an old Dual) that I enjoy, but I've replaced the cart that came with it. Pro-Ject has a new table, the Xpression, that looks promising. Music Hall turntables are selling well too, but you might want to start with the MMF-5 rather than the MMF-2.1. These Pro-Jects and Music Halls are in the $300-600 range. Above that, you might want to look at a Rega P3 or VPI HW-19, Jr. which are in the $650-750 range.

Once you're satisfied with your table/cart, then you might want to experiment with different outboard phono preamps. There are a variety of solid state and tube-based phono preamps to choose from.

[royphil345]

I'd say that if all you hear is static, the records are probably damaged or the cartridge needs replacing. Maybe some bad wiring? A better cartridge will generally sound better, but the rest of the turntable also contributes to the quality of sound.

I'd probably stay away from the NAD 533. I've read both consumer and professional reviews that talk about audible wow and flutter (speed variations) on the 533. Also the Goldring Elektra is a cartridge that most people would replace with something better eventually. The arm on the NAD looks nice, the magnetic anti-skate is cool, but think you could easily find a used table for around $100.00 that at least doesn't have audible wow and flutter problems. Add a Shure M97xE cartridge (around $80.00) and you've got yourself a nice entry-level setup for around $200.00.

As far as how to select a good used table... That's a tough question. I'm old enough to have had some experience with a few older turntables. That helps, still hard to go looking for a certain table, actually find it, and get a good deal on it. I shopped by browsing eBay and seeing what was for sale. I didn't want to spend much, so I was also keeping my eye out for a "sleeper" table that was capable of good sound, but not a model sought after by alot of people.(the plastic Sony PS-X5) I would absolutely recommend a Sony PS-X5, PS-X6, or PS-X7 for around $100.00. The PS-X6 is a newer version of the PS-X5. The PS-X7 has a carbon fiber tonearm. The tonearm and bearings are very nice. The weighty plastic base seems to isolate very well and add a little warmth. They are all quartz-locked direct-drive tables that run quietly and keep a very stable speed. Belt drive is preferred in a true high-end table, but I think the Sony probably runs quieter and maintains a more stable speed than a "budget" belt-drive table.

Here's a few tables I found on eBay that look interesting. I'm sure you wouldn't have any trouble getting opinions on any other table you might be interested in around here!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5750895915&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64626&item=5752104109&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5751117580&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64626&item=5750567606&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5751491698&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5751498893&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5751955877&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64626&item=5752436022&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64625&item=5752301541&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5752174072&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5751981159&rd=1


The Pioneer looks sweet. Nice tonearm. You may have to outbid me on this one!!! (kidding!!!)

[T-Bone]

Man this has been a good thread for me... learned a lot.

It is nice to know that the turntable itself is responsible for some of the sound quality... I would have thought it was just the stylus or cartridge.

One further question... one of the earlier posts mentions that the system needs to be well grounded... how does one go about doing that? Are there wires that need to be connected other than the RCA cables, or does this depend on the turntable.

Thanks for the tips...

[dean_martin]

Man this has been a good thread for me... learned a lot.

It is nice to know that the turntable itself is responsible for some of the sound quality... I would have thought it was just the stylus or cartridge.

One further question... one of the earlier posts mentions that the system needs to be well grounded... how does one go about doing that? Are there wires that need to be connected other than the RCA cables, or does this depend on the turntable.

Thanks for the tips...

When you mentioned "static" in your original post, I thought you were talking about static electricity build-up which can be common with a turntable. You walk over to raise your tonearm to place it on a record or to turn the table on and you get zapped. This can be relieved with grounding the turntable in most cases. The turntable will have 3 cables or wires - two are your standard interconnects with RCA jacks, the other is a thinner ground wire. Generally, an integrated amp or receiver with a phono section will have a ground connection on the back near the phono inputs. Just put the ground wire from the turntable under the ground connection on the back of the amp and screw it down. BTW, I've run my turntable with and without the ground wire connected.

[royphil345]

Here's a few more... (I love window shopping)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5751829083&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5752092341&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5751739920&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5751445294&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64625&item=5751707862&rd=1

The Marantz models use a small weight on a piece of nylon thread to apply the anti-skate force. Looks like the weight may be missing from the 2nd one down and possibly the direct drive model. If interested in one of these, I'd ask the seller about it.

Making sure the cartridge is aligned properly, the turntable is level, and everything is adjusted properly goes a long way towards getting good sound out of a turntable.

[royphil345]

Wasn't sure about these Sonys. Did some research and it seems they're pretty nice too. Plastic but heavy. Quartz-locked speed. VTA adjustable on the fly. Would probably outperform the entry-level Music Hall or NAD. Sold for around $400.00 back in the day.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=48649&item=5752733254&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5752078584&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5751879085&rd=1

[GlenNewdick]

Try your local area. look in the buy and sell's, news papers. also go to the local record shops and see if theres a bulletin board this way you can see and hear them running before you buy.