Can you hear?

[SpankingVanillaice]

If a speaker such as my JBL S26 monitors are from 48hz to 20K -3 db. Will I hear a difference on compairing them to a speaker that is more flatter response.

[markw]

As usual, I have NO idea what you are trying to say, but a 3db change is barely audiable. Note the "barely"

[topspeed]

I think he's referring to the given freq. response. If this is correct, what the speaker manufacturer is stating SV, is that the speaker has a measured response from x to y within a range of +-3dB. In other words, say a speaker claims 30hz at -3dB, this means that the freq. response below 30hz is going to fall off more than -3dB from flat.

In answer to your question, yes you can hear the difference, especially if the peaks and troughs are close together in the midband.

[Woochifer]

3 db variations are where deviations from flat response are clearly audible. But, the effect depends not only on the amplitude of the deviation, but the bandwidth as well. A 3 db hump that occurs across a wide frequency range sounds different than a 3 db peak that occurs withn a very narrow range.

[SpankingVanillaice]

I fixed my question on first post.

[markw]

You also must factor in what type of environment this measurment was arrived at and how far from the drivers the microphone was. The farther you are from the drivers, the greater the variations are.

IOW, it's basicaly a "pretty" number that they were able to arrive at under ideal conditions that really doesn't exist in your living room.

Ever hear the one about the guy that drowned in the deep end of a lake that has an average depth of 4 inches? ...think about that one.

[E-Stat]

If a speaker such as my JBL S26 monitors are from 48hz to 20K -3 db. Will I hear a difference on compairing them to a speaker that is more flatter response.
Potentially yes, but more importantly, there are many factors that affect sound quality other than frequency response. Such does not convey its imaging capabilities, coherency of the drivers and crossover, and freedom from cabinet colorations, all of which are audible. Systems like the S26 with 6" woofers (similar to a pair of Polks I use with my HT) lack the bottom two octaves of music. You really need a subwoofer with them to be full range.

rw

[Lensman]

If a speaker such as my JBL S26 monitors are from 48hz to 20K -3 db. Will I hear a difference on compairing them to a speaker that is more flatter response.

Many years ago, when I first got into audio, I cared about nothing but stats. I purchased my first speakers based purely on brief lines of numbers, and frequency response was the most important one. If speaker A went from 40-22K and speaker B went from 50-20K, then A was clearly superior. If A was rated +/-3 db and B was +3/-2 db, B was better. It seemed completely unnecessary to listen to speakers (which are boxes that produce sound to hear) because I had stats.

It took a number of years for me to realize there might actually be some importance to listening to speakers. When I finally auditioned them, it was revelation. To my surprise, I discovered that EVERY speaker sounds different and no stat will ever tell you if the sound from X hz. to Y hz. will actually be pleasing to your ears or not. Stats like you're quoting may tell you a speaker can generate a tone up to 20K at a certain volume level within a certain db range. But they won't tell you if the high end is shrill or smooth. Likewise they may tell you the bass can go down to a certain point, but they won't tell you if that bass is boomy and muddy or clean and tight. Nor will stats such as these tell you anything at all about how the critical midrange frequencies sound, which is where the majority of sound is located.

Frequency response charts can give you a little better look, if you know how to read them. But even then, they can't tell you whether your ears will like the way a set of speakers sounds or not. Speakers that looks flatter on a chart may sound better, but they may also sound flat and devoid of life.

As I listened I also learned everybody has their own ideas about what makes good sound. This might have something to do with the fact that everyone has different shaped ears. There are so many different brands, styles and types of speakers out there because it turns out there is no set right way to build a speaker that sounds good to everybody. A speaker I may think is the greatest ever might be the same one you find completely unlistenable.

Speakers are designed to produce sound. So the only way to know how they sound and to determine whether you like them or not is to hear them. Don't let a few numbers limit your audio experience.

[SpankingVanillaice]

For example lets pretend and say that one S26 has +- 1 db and the real one has - 3 db. Will I hear the difference?

[SpankingVanillaice]

What I am woundering is that can I hear the difference on a speaker compairing with one that is +- 3db or -3 db to a speaker that is just +- 1 db???

[Feanor]

What I am woundering is that can I hear the difference on a speaker compairing with one that is +- 3db or -3 db to a speaker that is just +- 1 db???
But the point is you need to actually listen to the speaker, not just rely on specifications. The correspondence between specification and the actual listening experience is extremely loose.

Even assuming two spearkers were to have the same accurate, valid specification, (such as 50Hz - 18kHz +/- 2dB), they would sound different for a variety of reasons.

[markw]

Do you even bother to read the answers your posts generate? ...or is comprehension of what you've read the problem?

[This Guy]

what are you 12 years old or something? You've been on these forums for over a year asking the same damn questions about your S26's. Get the **** out and listen to speakers if your so concerned about your S26's. Sometimes I wonder if your trying to be a pest, and i didnt throw that out the window yet.

[newbsterv2]

Barely audible? Are you kidding me? 3db up or down is DOUBLE the audible change in volume from one frequency to another. I wouldn't even bother replying to mr spankingvanillaice's questions anyway. He believes his precious JBL's are a benchmark in sound quality or something. I don't even think I've heard 2 seperate model speakers, even in a single manufacturers series, that sound exactly like the speaker next to it.



As usual, I have NO idea what you are trying to say, but a 3db change is barely audiable. Note the "barely"

[markw]

Barely audible? Are you kidding me? 3db up or down is DOUBLE the audible change in volume from one frequency to another.You may want to brush up on your electronic math and theory before jumping into these discussions llike that.

When you DOUBLE the POWER INTO a SPEAKER you get a BARELY AUDIABLE 3 DECIBLE INCREASE in LOUDNESS.

When you INCREASE the POWER INTO a SPEAKER TEN TIMES, you get a 10 DECIBLE INCREASE in LOUDNESS, which boils down to approximately TWICE the apparant LOUDNESS.

...but yes, this kid is seeming to be a bit of a troll.

[elbarono]

Err, markw, I think you may be the one who is confused. 3db louder doubles the SPL/volume.

A 10db increase is equivalent to 10 times the volume.

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/sound/u11l2b.html

[newbsterv2]

The REASON the decibel scale is used is because humans don't hear volume levels the same way the a multimeter will see a change in power. And a 3db increase is very noticeable. Many people including myself can and will respond to a 1db variation. Let's say that you have a speaker that is flat from 40hz thru 800hz and then rapidly falls 3db thereafter all the way to 20khz. Are you going to tell me that this speaker will sound the same as a speaker that is flat from 40hz to 20khz?? If you do then a) you are deaf b) you're ears have been damaged from too many rock concerts and c) you are tone deaf. Any person who has been listening to speakers and has good hearing will tell you that the +/- 3db spec is useless just because the fact that it doesn't specify EXACTLY where the peaks and dips in the frequency response are.




You may want to brush up on your electronic math and theory before jumping into these discussions llike that.

When you DOUBLE the POWER INTO a SPEAKER you get a BARELY AUDIABLE 3 DECIBLE INCREASE in LOUDNESS.

When you INCREASE the POWER INTO a SPEAKER TEN TIMES, you get a 10 DECIBLE INCREASE in LOUDNESS, which boils down to approximately TWICE the apparant LOUDNESS.

...but yes, this kid is seeming to be a bit of a troll.

[newbsterv2]

i pulled out an old electrical engineering manual that i had when i was in college and decided to look up specific info for you just to prove you are indeed wrong. this is from the book markw.......


"Therefore, for a speaker system, a 3db increase in output would require that the power level be doubled. In the audio industry, it is a generally accepted rule that an increase in sound level is accomplished with 3db increments in the output level. In other words, a 1db increase is barely audible, and a 2db increase barely discernible. A 3db increase normally results in a readily detectable increase in sound level"

this is from Robert L Boylestad's book "Introductory Circuit Analysis"

p.s. markw you really should watch whom you tell to brush up on their math. it never hurts to just open a book does it?



You may want to brush up on your electronic math and theory before jumping into these discussions llike that.

When you DOUBLE the POWER INTO a SPEAKER you get a BARELY AUDIABLE 3 DECIBLE INCREASE in LOUDNESS.

When you INCREASE the POWER INTO a SPEAKER TEN TIMES, you get a 10 DECIBLE INCREASE in LOUDNESS, which boils down to approximately TWICE the apparant LOUDNESS.

...but yes, this kid is seeming to be a bit of a troll.

[markw]

I'll stick to my guns there, guys. Note I referenced "apparant loudness". Try it some time.

Now, where does it say that it's "double the audiable change" as you say in your initial post?

[theaudiohobby]

I'll stick to my guns there, guys. Note I referenced "apparant loudness". Try it some time.

Now, where does it say that it's double the loudness, as you said in your initial post?

Please be gracious enough to admit you were wrong, no need to stick to your guns when it is blatant that you picked the wrong end of the stick on this one.

[markw]

Please be gracious enough to admit you were wrong, no need to stick to your guns when it is blatant that you picked the wrong end of the stick on this one.But, sorry, in this case I'm not. In this big, bad world of real world audio, a 3 db change is "barely" audiable. Has been for the past 40+ years I've been in the business.

Actually, I'm disappointed. I honestly expected more in he way of real knowledge of electrial and acoustic theory from you. Maybe you should read the next post as well. You might learn a little something yourself.

Now, if you want to prove that that100 watt amp plays twice as loud as that 50 watt unit, go ahead.

[markw]

Err, markw, I think you may be the one who is confused. 3db louder doubles the SPL/volume.

A 10db increase is equivalent to 10 times the volume.

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/sound/u11l2b.htmlAll this talk about "decibles" and yet you all ignore the final decision maker in what we actually wind up hearing and how loudly we percieve, or "hear" it.

The ear. It's all gotta go into here and it doesn't count as being heard until it reaches our brain.

You all assume that the human ear is a linear device. It's not. One off y'all hinted at this but obviously had not a clue about what he was talking about, otherwise it would have sunk in before this.

It's not a linear device. It's essentially a logarithmic device. What this means is essentially the greater the "loudness", the less the ear "hears". There's a lot of other shiite involved with SPL levels, frrequencies and other stuff, but I'm not able to go there (and trust me, from what I've seen here, neither are y'all) so we'll keep it fairly simple.

Ultimately, a 10 decible increase in "sound pressure" results in approxiatmely twice the apparant loudness., not the tenfold gain you surmise.

Likewise, while one may be able to "perceive" a 1 db change under some conditions, to become significant may take a bit more. I'll stick to my "barely audiable" claim for a 3 db change since it's close enough to that textbook definition of "barely discernable" to still be usable. If you want to get involved in semantics instead of facts, feel free. That ain't my bag.

Using your logic, one could say that a 100 watt amplifier plays twice as loud as a 50 watt amp. Is that really what you want to say and back up using your numbers?

Now, my turn to post a quote.

"The judgment of relative sounds is more or less logarithmic, such that a tenfold increase in sound power is described as "twice as loud". The just noticeable difference in loudness varies from 3 dB at the threshold of hearing to an impressive 0.5 dB for loud sounds."

Research and reading is good. Comprehension of what you are reading is even better. Here's the link. It leads to many other related links as well. Knock yerselves out, boys.

http://www.epanorama.net/links/audiohearing.html#general

[newbsterv2]

I mean to be honest you have got to be a troll. If we all follow your logic then EVERY speaker barely sounds different than the speaker sitting next to it because it's rated 50hz to 20khz +/- 3db. That is the most absurd thing I've read since visiting this site. Then you have all this talk about our "ears" and what it "perceives" and so forth. I agree with that 100% but that conflicts with everything you say before it! I'm going to stop feeding the troll now.



All this talk about "decibles" and yet you all ignore the final decision maker in what we actually wind up hearing and how loudly we percieve, or "hear" it.

The ear. It's all gotta go into here and it doesn't count as being heard until it reaches our brain.

You all assume that the human ear is a linear device. It's not. One off y'all hinted at this but obviously had not a clue about what he was talking about, otherwise it would have sunk in before this.

It's not a linear device. It's essentially a logarithmic device. What this means is essentially the greater the "loudness", the less the ear "hears". There's a lot of other shiite involved with SPL levels, frrequencies and other stuff, but I'm not able to go there (and trust me, from what I've seen here, neither are y'all) so we'll keep it fairly simple.

Ultimately, a 10 decible increase in "sound pressure" results in approxiatmely twice the apparant loudness., not the tenfold gain you surmise.

Likewise, while one may be able to "perceive" a 1 db change under some conditions, to become significant may take a bit more. I'll stick to my "barely audiable" claim for a 3 db change since it's close enough to that textbook definition of "barely discernable" to still be usable. If you want to get involved in semantics instead of facts, feel free. That ain't my bag.

Using your logic, one could say that a 100 watt amplifier plays twice as loud as a 50 watt amp. Is that really what you want to say and back up using your numbers?

Now, my turn to post a quote.

"The judgment of relative sounds is more or less logarithmic, such that a tenfold increase in sound power is described as "twice as loud". The just noticeable difference in loudness varies from 3 dB at the threshold of hearing to an impressive 0.5 dB for loud sounds."

Research and reading is good. Comprehension of what you are reading is even better. Here's the link. It leads to many other related links as well. Knock yerselves out, boys.

http://www.epanorama.net/links/audiohearing.html#general

[theaudiohobby]

But, sorry, in this case I'm not. In this big, bad world of real world audio, a 3 db change is "barely" audiable. Has been for the past 40+ years I've been in the business.

Actually, I'm disappointed. I honestly expected more in he way of real knowledge of electrial and acoustic theory from you. Maybe you should read the next post as well. You might learn a little something yourself.

Now, if you want to prove that that100 watt amp plays twice as loud as that 50 watt unit, go ahead.

I just go to laugh here, :p :p :p, just stop digging.


When you DOUBLE the POWER INTO a SPEAKER you get a BARELY AUDIABLE 3 DECIBLE INCREASE in LOUDNESS.
compare it to this


A 3db increase normally results in a readily detectable increase in sound level

[SpankingVanillaice]

Ok 3 db is "barely" audiable now I know what I always wanted to know. But what freq on my speakers drop 3 db? Since my S26 is rated -3 db.

[topspeed]

Ok 3 db is "barely" audiable now I know what I always wanted to know. But what freq on my speakers drop 3 db? Since my S26 is rated -3 db.Look, it's going to be all over the place. Get a freq. response graph and look at the damn thing. There will be peaks and valleys everywhere! The key is (pay attention here):
IT DOESN'T MEAN SH!T!

You don't know if the measurements were anechoic, in room, testing parameters, or whatever. The measurements will be different in your room anyway so who cares?

Good Lord kid, just listen to the music!

[SpankingVanillaice]

Were can I get a graph for the S26?

[SpankingVanillaice]

Were can I get a graph for the HLS410 too??

[Woochifer]

Were can I get a graph for the S26?

If knowing every last detail about your speakers means that much to you, then why don't you do your own measurements and tell us how they perform? Here's an RTA program that you can download for that purpose.

http://www.trueaudio.com/

Personally, I would heed topspeed's advice and just enjoy your speakers rather than endlessly spinning all this minutae.

[This Guy]

Were can I get a graph for the S26?
say the graph was really bad, full of peaks and nulls. Would you sell the speakers? It probably will be cause every room reacts to the speakers differently. Are you trying to get us to tell you your speakers are the best so we boost your self esteem because you have none off the computer?

[markw]

.. .that the kid reworded his question after three people already tried to answer the original poorly worded question?

[theaudiohobby]

As usual, I have NO idea what you are trying to say, but a 3db change is barely audible. Note the "barely"

I am spoiling for a fight, I have appeared on the thread, now defend your statement above. I say that 3dB is an audibly noticable increase and yep I am piggy backing off newbsterv2's post.

[theaudiohobby]

Mr. Huge Ego,

I suppose noticeable and barely mean the same thing, don't they?

so after all that tough talk, you simply whimpered out on a lame excuse, ho..hum..so much for the macho talk hee..you finally realised that you were wrong afterall. May you learn to accept correction gracefully in the future.

Game over since you whimpered out.

[theaudiohobby]

Markw, apologies for the crossing of swords, I enjoyed it while it lasted though :D. I should have guessed that you were simply bluffing. Still accept my sincerest apologies, next time when you commit a boo boo online, I will stay silent, since I now know your ego is rather huge and fragile :p .

[E-Stat]

Markw, apologies for the crossing of swords...
Gee guys, didn't this get a bit heated over degrees of subjectivity? I appreciate the self control (on both sides). To a degree, i agree with both of you.

Indeed conventional widsom for a long while was 3 db was the least amount of perceptible change. And that required a doubling of power to achieve. I would say it is more like 1 db given the change I sense using the 1 db stepped balance control on my preamp. I would further agree that the audible difference between 1 db and 3 db is relatively small. The new McIntosh C-46 preamp touts 0.5 db steps for its attenuator. Now, that may be cutting it a bit finely!

rw

[gonefishin]

What I am woundering is that can I hear the difference on a speaker compairing with one that is +- 3db or -3 db to a speaker that is just +- 1 db???


This one frequency response spec tells you almost nothing about how the speaker is voiced...or how it sounds.


to answer your questions...
Yes, you can have two speakers that have a rating difference of 2db...and they could still sound similar (or different)

You can also have two speakers that have this same frequency rating, but the two can sound very different (or similar).

unless there are some gross problems showing an obvious flaw...I wouldn't get too hung up on them.





dan

[Lafferman]

i agree just enjoy your speakers and quit making us nebraskans look bad our football team is doing a good enough job of that.

[Toga]

More bad news about perceived level:

First, the doubling of sound level is stated as a RANGE because no two people have identical linearity of hearing. This range is typically 6 to 10dB for perceived doubling, and depends on the listener, and the threshold of audibility, pain threshold, and where in between the step is created.

Next, Fletcher/Munson curves for "perceived loudness" have been used for many years to illustrate deficiencies even larger at the frequency extremes; deep bass and extreme treble. While some of their research methodology has been called into question about the SPECIFIC profiles of their curves, there is no doubt that the non-linearity is frequency dependent.

Add to this TLS (Temporary Level Shift) which adds further compression over time, and it gets harder to decide where a specific relative level is at all.

The biggest deal about speakers sounding different, is that frequency response is only ONE specification out of so many considerations, some of which aren't even well understood yet, like velocity of standing waves vs. stiffness and damping in diaphragms. This means two speakers with indistinguishable frequency plots may still sound very different because of their energy emission OVER TIME, and how quickly they can start and stop making sound in comparison to the input signal. That is just ONE example. See the Fostex website for discussions about the diaphragm issues.

http://www.fostex.com/support/pdf/fostex/nf1/nf1_tech_white_paper.pdf