warmer sound for $600??? help me upgrade from cambridge sndwrks ensemble II

[telescorpio]

I have a set of cambridge soundworks ensemble II speakers (two small satellites and two passive bass modules). I use an Onkyo TX-8211 receiver, 50 Watts/channel.
I have a basic JVC CD player and am buying a Music Hall 2.1 turntable to finally get into vinyl.

System is in a 12 by 16 room, hardwood floors. speakers face toward the room and are set up on a wall that is almost all windows.

I don't need a particularly loud sounding system and will keep the receiver. Two channel setup is sufficient.

Likes/dislikes about the ensemble II speakers:

clarity & imaging of the music. they're best on electronic sounds and some jazz, fine on hip-hop.
they're not great on acoustic performances and seem to lack midrange warmth. bass sounds feel disjointed from the rest of the music

Is there anything I can do to improve their sound?

Would a set of monitor bookshelf speakers (Ascend acoustics CBM-170, Epos 3)
give me warmer, richer mid-range sound - especially once I have the music hall turntable - without losing the hi/low clarity & detail?

Will I need to get a powered subwoofer to help out the monitor speakers?

Thanks!

Budget for speakers - including subwoofer if I'll need it - is $600 max.

[bargainseeker]

From the fact that you are using a stereo receiver and are talking about music performance, I assume that you will be using your speakers 100% for music and not for home theater.

The kind of problems you are hearing are not unusual for a sub/sat speaker system with very small satellites and a high crossover point. To answer your question, yes you can achieve better integration between bass and higher frequencies and a smoother and more natural sounding midrange. As I see it, you have three choices:

1) Go with mini-monitors that are more accurate and go lower in the bass than your current satellites and supplement them with a subwoofer. Some good choices for this option would be a pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170.html) speakers and a Hsu Research STF-1 (http://www.hsustore.com/stf1.html) subwoofer. I am not familiar with the Epos 3 speakers so I can't give an opinion on them.

2) Go with a larger pair of bookshelf speakers that are accurate and can go low enough in the bass that a subwoofer is not required. A good example of such a speaker is the Energy C-3 (http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/products/product-page.php?id=25).

3) Go with some compact floorstanders that are accurate and can go low enough in the bass that a subwoofer is not required. For these, the Swans 4.1 (http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=173) in black cherry (http://www.theaudioinsider.com/cgi-bin/theaudioinsider/SW4.1BC.html?id=IzR4WEwh) would be a good bet and would fit your budget.

For your particular situation, my personal recommendation would be the Swans 4.1 speakers if they will fit in your listening room. There is a review of the rosewood version of these speakers here (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/diva-swans-41-speakers-5-2001.html).

I don't think it would be a good idea for you to go with a pair of mini-monitors that go low enough in the bass that a subwoofer would not be required. Such speakers have low sensitivity and require more amplifier power than your receiver can deliver.

[telescorpio]

Yes, this will be 100% for music and not for home theater.

If I got a pair of bookshelf speakers - for which a sub would not be "required" - could I later add a sub to them to improve them even more?


From the fact that you are using a stereo receiver and are talking about music performance, I assume that you will be using your speakers 100% for music and not for home theater.

The kind of problems you are hearing are not unusual for a sub/sat speaker system with very small satellites and a high crossover point. To answer your question, yes you can achieve better integration between bass and higher frequencies and a smoother and more natural sounding midrange. As I see it, you have three choices:

1) Go with mini-monitors that are more accurate and go lower in the bass than your current satellites and supplement them with a subwoofer. Some good choices for this option would be a pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170.html) speakers and a Hsu Research STF-1 (http://www.hsustore.com/stf1.html) subwoofer. I am not familiar with the Epos 3 speakers so I can't give an opinion on them.

2) Go with a larger pair of bookshelf speakers that are accurate and can go low enough in the bass that a subwoofer is not required. A good example of such a speaker is the Energy C-3 (http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/products/product-page.php?id=25).

3) Go with some compact floorstanders that are accurate and can go low enough in the bass that a subwoofer is not required. For these, the Swans 4.1 (http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=173) in black cherry (http://www.theaudioinsider.com/cgi-bin/theaudioinsider/SW4.1BC.html?id=IzR4WEwh) would be a good bet and would fit your budget.

For your particular situation, my personal recommendation would be the Swans 4.1 speakers if they will fit in your listening room. There is a review of the rosewood version of these speakers here (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/diva-swans-41-speakers-5-2001.html).

I don't think it would be a good idea for you to go with a pair of mini-monitors that go low enough in the bass that a subwoofer would not be required. Such speakers have low sensitivity and require more amplifier power than your receiver can deliver.

[topspeed]

I don't think it would be a good idea for you to go with a pair of mini-monitors that go low enough in the bass that a subwoofer would not be required. Such speakers have low sensitivity and require more amplifier power than your receiver can deliver.I must have slept through this class. Can you tell me the relationship between frequency response and efficiency?

Scorpio,
If you want to "warm" up your sound, I'm not sure the Acends are a good idea. I've read quite a few reviews pointing out their somewhat aggressive treble response which led to fatigue. As always, listen for yourself but I thought you should be aware of that.

Energy and Epos are both definitely worth an audition. I would also highly recommend you track down a pair of these Von Schweikert VR1's (http://vonschweikert.com/vr1.html), as they are most musical standmount I've encountered under $2K, by far. They are supremely dynamic and play to a solid 40hz, so you won't need a sub for the vast majority of music. Follow the links to reviews and then decide for yourself. Naturally, I own them so consider me suitably biased. You'll need to buy them used to meet your price point, so check out audiogon.com.

Speakers are the most subjective off all the pieces that make up a good rig. Take your time, audition everything you can find within your budget, and most importantly believe your own ears. The only opinion that matters is yours.

Enjoy the ride.

[RGA]

I would try and find the Audio Note AX Two - $549.00US give em a try.

[matt39]

It seems to me that part of your problem may lie in the room itself. It sounds like you have a very 'live' listening area with a lot of hard surfaces. I think you might want to look into some inexpensive ways to treat the room (rugs, curtains,etc.). Unfortunately I'm not real knowledgeable on this myself, but there are numerous threads on this subject and some of the other members might be able to help. I believe topspeed has mentioned some recent articles in The Absolute Sound on room treatments which might help too. Taking the room into consideration, you should be conscious of trial periods and return policies when making a purchase because speakers may not give you what you expect or want when you get them home. That being said, I'll recommend a couple brands with speakers in your price range that might help. Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo One and Three, Polk Audio, and KEF Q series speakers are all possibilities. The Epos, Von Schweikert (used), and Audio Note speakers are definitely worth a look. I would be a bit leery of speakers with a lot of treble emphasis because they may end up being a bit over the top in your room. Anyway be patient and careful in your auditioning and good luck.

[bargainseeker]

I must have slept through this class. Can you tell me the relationship between frequency response and efficiency?To best understand this relationship, I recommend that you read the papers by Neville Thiele and Richard Small in the Audio Engineering Society Journal from the 1970s, but I will try to put it in a nutshell for you.

Relative to bass response, the three key parameters of a loudspeaker as a whole are F3 (the 3dB down point of the bass response), S (the sensitivity at 1M with 1W) and VE (the enclosure volume). For a given enclosure type (e.g., bass reflex or acoustic suspension) with maximum accuracy and no equalization you can pick any two of these parameters and the third one will be determined. So if you pick a low F3 and a small VE you must have a speaker with low sensitivity.




If you want to "warm" up your sound, I'm not sure the Acends are a good idea. I've read quite a few reviews pointing out their somewhat aggressive treble response which led to fatigue. As always, listen for yourself but I thought you should be aware of that.The Ascend Acoustic CMT-340 speaker, which use a different tweeter from the one in the CBM-170, does have an overly bright on-axis treble response. However, the CBM-170s have a very smooth, natural and accurate treble response both on- and off-axis. I own the CBM-170s and, if anything, they have a less aggressive treble than that of the Energy C-3.

I think you would find it instructive to read professional reviews of the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/ascendacoustics_cbm170.htm) speakers and the Von Schweikert VR-1 (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/vonschweikert_vr1.htm) speakers done by the same person (Doug Schneider of SoundStage) and also to compare the objective measurements of both speakers.

[bargainseeker]

If I got a pair of bookshelf speakers - for which a sub would not be "required" - could I later add a sub to them to improve them even more?Yes. For particular types of music (e.g., pipe organ) a subwoofer would help to produce the lowest bass frequencies that aren't produced by large bookshelf speakers.

[royphil345]

I must have slept through this class. Can you tell me the relationship between frequency response and efficiency?

There are very efficient speakers with good low frequency response. Though, I have seen many designs where efficiency is traded off for more bass in a SMALL speaker (Crossover network pads higher frequencies to the woofer). End result is a small driver operating below it's normal frequency range and can't produce these frequencies as efficiently.

[bargainseeker]

There are very efficient speakers with good low frequency response.Yes there are, and by the laws of physics they must be quite large.

[topspeed]

Bargainseeker,

Thanks. So where does Q fit into all this?

[bargainseeker]

Bargainseeker,

Thanks. So where does Q fit into all this?Q is a measure of how good a system is at being a resonator. The higher the Q, the better the resonator. Conversely, the lower the Q, the more damped a system is and the poorer it is as a resonator. Measurement of the Qts of a woofer is one parameter used in determining what type of enclosure is appropriate for that woofer (e.g., acoustic suspension, bass reflex, infinite baffle). It is also one of the key parameters used in determining the enclosure volume and F3 of a loudspeaker built using that woofer.

There are basicly two different ways of approaching enclosure design: You can start with the characteristics of the finished loudspeaker and "pick any two out of the three" parameters as I described previously. Then you must find or custom design a woofer which has the needed parameters for that enclosure. Alternatively, you can pick the woofer and then design an enclosure around it.

[Geoffcin]

I have a set of cambridge soundworks ensemble II speakers (two small satellites and two passive bass modules). I use an Onkyo TX-8211 receiver, 50 Watts/channel.
I have a basic JVC CD player and am buying a Music Hall 2.1 turntable to finally get into vinyl.

System is in a 12 by 16 room, hardwood floors. speakers face toward the room and are set up on a wall that is almost all windows.

I don't need a particularly loud sounding system and will keep the receiver. Two channel setup is sufficient.

Likes/dislikes about the ensemble II speakers:

clarity & imaging of the music. they're best on electronic sounds and some jazz, fine on hip-hop.
they're not great on acoustic performances and seem to lack midrange warmth. bass sounds feel disjointed from the rest of the music

Is there anything I can do to improve their sound?

Would a set of monitor bookshelf speakers (Ascend acoustics CBM-170, Epos 3)
give me warmer, richer mid-range sound - especially once I have the music hall turntable - without losing the hi/low clarity & detail?

Will I need to get a powered subwoofer to help out the monitor speakers?

Thanks!

Budget for speakers - including subwoofer if I'll need it - is $600 max.

But have been surpassed by the Newton line in almost every way. If you enjoy the classic warm "New England" sound then I don't think you'll have to look further than a pair of CSW M80's. I like the classic look and sound of these, and also the 10 year warrantee.
Also, a subwoofer would not be needed with a speaker of this size.