Forget Hdmi, It's A Lie, We've Been Had!!!

[Mr Peabody]

I will build to my point so bare with me. First selling point for HDMI is only one cable. Is that really a big deal? Maybe for some. Let's get to it, second big selling point DIGITAL AUDIO. Well yeah, it's digital BUT it's only 2.0! There is no equipment today capable of transmitting multi channel audio through HDMI. Here's the biggest BS about HDMI, by far the supposed biggest selling point UPSCALE to near HIGH DEFINITION video, NOT!!!, these HDMI machines will not upscale any DVD with copy guard protection. What DVD don't have copy guard? This is a fact read in my LG owner's manual and verified by the company. I think this is the dirtiest trick played on consumers that I can recall. It's unbelieveable that the electronics and movie industry can get away with this. Sure the actual cable is capable of passing multi-channel digital sound and HD video but what's the point when nothing else will reproduce or transmit these signals. It's like having a HDTV 10 years ago, what's the point. If you are on other forums help get the word out on HDMI. The best you will get is 2 channel audio and 480p video UNLESS you can find a DVD with no copy protection. Good luck!!

Why would the movie industry block their movie from being viewed at it's best? Especially, people like Lucas with this whole THX thing. This experience has really taught me to put on the breaks and do more research before buying new technology. Does any one else find this a disturbing as I do? I would like to lodge a complaint, but to who? And talk about fighting windmills.

[Woochifer]

Actually, my understanding of HDMI is that it can pass a DD 5.1 signal, but you need a receiver enabled with HDMI 1.1 in order to do this. The thing about HDMI that I think makes it a necessary purchase from here on out if you're buying a DVD player, receiver, or HDTV is the looming threat of the feds heeding to the calls from the studios for copy protection. There apparently is very active discussion about eliminating analog video connections for new TVs, and if they include analog connections, the TV would have to downsample the picture to non-HD resolution.

HDMI's not about the here and now. Right now, component video works fine. But, HDMI is about being able to connect devices that you buy in the next few years together. I'm not altogether sure about what if any technical advantages you gain by going with HDMI, but from my vantage point, I would want whatever devices I buy right now to work with other devices that I purchase in the near future. And right now, I would bet that analog connections will be the ones getting screwed with in the next few years. Plus, the HDMI cables are less expensive than equal length component video cables.

The real role of HDMI and the copy protection tie-ins will probably emerge with the next generation of HD-DVD and Blu-ray players. I have a feeling that those devices will not pass HD signals through the component video outputs, only through the HDMI output. Manufacturers have standardized around HDMI very quickly, and by this time next year, I don't think you'll see any HDTVs or DVD players without HDMI. Within two years, probably most receivers will have HDMI switching. Remains to be seen whether they will use the HDMI connection for audio.

Personally, I don't think the whole video upsampling issue is anything to worry about. DVD can only support 480p resolution natively. Upsampling to 720p and 1080 resolution doesn't add any bits to the picture. Of course, this could also be a preemptive step to ensure that if consumers want HD, they go with HD-DVD or Blu-ray. As far as the equipment manufacturers are concerned, DVD right now is the once promising prodigy that's been kicked to the curb while a new promising star gets groomed. From here on out, the focus will be on launching HD-DVD and Blu-ray. DVD's been commodified, and the manufacturers are treating it that way.

[shokhead]

A good reason not to run out and get the latest and greatest the second it comes out{can you say DVI}. A/V stuff changes to dam fast and to much to not wait,sit back and see what happens. As with HDMI,i dont think is the cable but the equipment right now.

[Wireworm5]

Mr. Peabody, I respectfully disagree with you. I have the Sony DVP-NS975V which I believe you own as well. And as far as I can tell every movie that I have played in it upscales to 1080i. I have yet to come across a movie that hasn't upscaled.
My Panasonic will only work in HD if the source is 1080i. Otherwise it will default to 480p.
I'm using an HDMI cable. I haven't yet tried component video to see if it will send 1080i to my tv, I will experiment with that tonight.

[JamezHill]

Would this be the same as Firewire? I see that becoming more and more popular. As I do not know much about it, I am curious :P

[Mr Peabody]

I don't have the Sony anymore, it only worked around 30 days so i got my money back. I didn't want to spend more than what the Sony cost so I ended up buying an LG. As I stated the fact that these units don't convert DVD with copy protection is right in the owners manual and confirmed by a company CSR. How do you know your receiving 1080i? I was told by Toshiba that the internal upscalers will not upconvert a digital signal, they only recognize analog. Therefore your component being digital will not change. Since all manufacturers are bound by the same laws I don't see how the Sony could be upconverting unless there are more unprotected DVDs on the market than I think. I have some emails out and plan to check with other manufactures as well to get more info. I wouldn't think LG would limit their converter from copy guard while others didn't. That would be like running in a race and LG being the only one in a potato sack.

[Wireworm5]

I know the signal is 1080i because when it isn't I'm able to change the aspect ratio of the picture, which I can't do with my tv in 1080i resolution. I can also see the differences in the picture if I switch from 1080i upconvertion to 480p. I want to point out that my tv was manufactured in Aug.of 2004. Perhaps an older HDtv or different models will work differently with these upconvertors. I can only comment on what I'm experiencing.
At first I was confused when I first got my tv, thinking that I was getting an HD picture when it was only 480p. That's when I got the brainstorm to get an upscaler. So that I could see dvd in HD mode. I'm not interested in HD satelitte at this time because I'm going to wait a year or two and see what happens in the industry in regards to pricing etc. Right now I'm content in watching shows that are broadcast in widescreen, since I don't really care much for watching the crap on most every channel.
I'm sorry to hear that the Sony didn't work for you. I haven't had any problems yet (cross my fingers). For me its the best upgrade I could have made for my system and I paid just $475 cdn. Hope the LG works for you.

[Mr Peabody]

However, this DVD Player do not upscale the video signals of the DVDs that are copy protected.

Please visit the following link to view more details about the DVP-NS975V DVD Player and continue to pla

Above is my futal attempt to share part of an email I received from Sony in regard to the ns975v upscaling copy protected DVD movies, it in fact does not. Maybe your Panasonic does some upscaling itself i don't know. But I doubt if your TV will go into 4:3 aspect with a DVD that is in 480p. My recent Toshiba 62" will not recognize digital signals for upscaling, maybe your Panasonic will. I wish i could share an email I got from HDMI LLC claiming just the opposite of what i have been saying. But so far LG and Sony has admitted they don't upscale copy protected DVD's. I tried to get an answer from Toshiba but they keep referring me to an 800# and by the time I get home and get around to calling they are closed. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here I just want everyone to see that we are being taken for a ride at our expense. The point here is HDMI is being marketed and sold, as well as DVD players on false claims. Just like I told HDMI LLC if they know of a machine that will prove me wrong give me a specific player. They also tried to tell me the DVD players send 5.1, I again asked for a specific model. 2 or 5.1 will be harder to test without a receiver that accepts HDMI or a TV with 5 audio channels.

[Quagmire]

Woochifer,

"...DVD right now is the once promising prodigy that's been kicked to the curb while a new promising star gets groomed. From here on out, the focus will be on launching HD-DVD and Blu-ray. DVD's been commodified, and the manufacturers are treating it that way."

Like I said awhile back, DVD is mearly a stop gap before HD-DVD arrives.

Q

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

DVD right now is the once promising prodigy that's been kicked to the curb while a new promising star gets groomed. From here on out, the focus will be on launching HD-DVD and Blu-ray. DVD's been commodified, and the manufacturers are treating it that way.

Unfortunately the content providers(Studios) are not that enthused. As a group they are not thrilled about either of the two technologies eating into their DVD revenue stream, which is quite lucrative. The last DVD consortium meeting amoung the studio's they are a group voiced their concern about the two battling technologies, and their wait and see attitude regarding both HD-DVD and Blue Ray. Sony is the only studio that is gung ho all the way with blue ray. I am looking forward to seeing how the studio's will react when the players become available.

[Woochifer]

Unfortunately the content providers(Studios) are not that enthused. As a group they are not thrilled about either of the two technologies eating into their DVD revenue stream, which is quite lucrative. The last DVD consortium meeting amoung the studio's they are a group voiced their concern about the two battling technologies, and their wait and see attitude regarding both HD-DVD and Blue Ray. Sony is the only studio that is gung ho all the way with blue ray. I am looking forward to seeing how the studio's will react when the players become available.

You're right about that. From the studio's point of view, they don't want to rock the boat and interrupt this revenue stream they've stumbled upon. Between the recording companies and movie studios, I can't think of the last time any of them collectively embraced a new format from the start. Even with the DVD, you had dissenters who withheld their best titles from DVD release in hopes that other schemes like Divx or that self-destructing disc would take hold.

But, in a way the studio agenda runs at odds with what equipment manufacturers want. I've read some articles about how bitter the electronics giants are over how quickly the profit margins for the DVD hardware evaporated. With HD-DVD and Blu-ray, they're supposedly trying to create market entry barriers to try and prevent a repeat of what happened with DVD where low margin Chinese companies quickly spiraled the price points down into the under-$50 range (some have accused by not paying the full share of DVD royalties). A friend of mine who attended CES said it was amazing how much HD-DVD and Blu-ray were getting promoted. I guess to manufacturers, right now DVD is about as exciting as VHS.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You're right about that. From the studio's point of view, they don't want to rock the boat and interrupt this revenue stream they've stumbled upon. Between the recording companies and movie studios, I can't think of the last time any of them collectively embraced a new format from the start. Even with the DVD, you had dissenters who withheld their best titles from DVD release in hopes that other schemes like Divx or that self-destructing disc would take hold.

But, in a way the studio agenda runs at odds with what equipment manufacturers want. I've read some articles about how bitter the electronics giants are over how quickly the profit margins for the DVD hardware evaporated. With HD-DVD and Blu-ray, they're supposedly trying to create market entry barriers to try and prevent a repeat of what happened with DVD where low margin Chinese companies quickly spiraled the price points down into the under-$50 range (some have accused by not paying the full share of DVD royalties). A friend of mine who attended CES said it was amazing how much HD-DVD and Blu-ray were getting promoted. I guess to manufacturers, right now DVD is about as exciting as VHS.

You more than correct, the position that the manufacturers are taking is directly counter to the studio position. Now here is a new problem. You release a product, and there is no studio support to speak of. Where does a manufacturer go from there? Sony seems the only studio/manufacturer that even has a chance. Out of everyone, they are the only ones that have access to a large movie library. But they themselves cannot carry the weight of an entire industry on their shoulders.

Any action that would keep the prices of these new formats high, will also keep either from growing. Consumers know that if they hold out long enough(many are already satisfied with current DVD standards) they prices will surely drop. You are not going to have a appreciable market if player prices stay around $1,000, so sooner or later you are going to have to let market forces do what they may with the price of the new players.

It is going to be very interesting to see which side blinks and gives in.

Another fly in he ointment is the actual benefit to the current consumer. With so many of the masses buying cheaper, lower quality extended definition(as opposed to high definition) will they actually see enough improvement on their sets to make it feasible to purchase the new formats? What about the new connections? Most will not have the right connection to hookup to the new players.
It is going to be interesting seeing how both of the new formats get upon their feet. SACD and DVD-A seemed to be stalled getting to the knee. I just think this whole copy protection paranoia the studio are currently on(rightly so unfortunately) is going to slow, or kill many audio or video format that try and enter the market.

[edtyct]

I don't have the Sony anymore, it only worked around 30 days so i got my money back. I didn't want to spend more than what the Sony cost so I ended up buying an LG. As I stated the fact that these units don't convert DVD with copy protection is right in the owners manual and confirmed by a company CSR. How do you know your receiving 1080i? I was told by Toshiba that the internal upscalers will not upconvert a digital signal, they only recognize analog. Therefore your component being digital will not change. Since all manufacturers are bound by the same laws I don't see how the Sony could be upconverting unless there are more unprotected DVDs on the market than I think. I have some emails out and plan to check with other manufactures as well to get more info. I wouldn't think LG would limit their converter from copy guard while others didn't. That would be like running in a race and LG being the only one in a potato sack.

No, Mr. Peabody, you have it wrong. None of the players capable of upconverting 480i or 480p signals to an HD resolution--players that must be equipped with a digital output, either DVI or HDMI--can do any upconverting via their analog component outputs, precisely because analog outputs cannot be copyprotected with HDCP. This is the same reason why content providers have held out the threat of downconverting HD broadcasts to 480p over component; HD over analog can be copied. Those same sensitive programs can remain in HD over DVI or HDMI, however, for the simple reason that HDCP prevents them from rampant reproduction. DVD players that digitally upscale the picture to mimic high definition will simply not work with any HDCP-encoded monitor unless they, too, are HDCP-enabled. The monitor reads the upconversion as HD (which can result in an altogether different problem). The player and monitor must shake hands correctly before this exchange can begin.

It is true that upconverting DVD video to 720p or 1080i will not achieve true high-definition resolution, but since the manipulated signal remains within the digital domain during upconversion as well as during its delivery to the monitor, the result has a chance of looking very good. Even without the upconversion, the digital signal is improved because of the absence of D/A artifacts. This is not to say, however, that these new players are without flaws. The Sony, for example, sends the wrong color space from its HDMI output to a DVI input, thereby depressing the color green (a result of misreading upconversion as true HD). The Samsungs crush blacks, and the Denons suffer from some degree of macroblocking (blotching) under certain conditions--arguably more of a deal breaker for people with sharp eyes.

Upconversion to 720p from a Sony DVP-NS975V to a microdisplay is plain stunning. A CRT display stands less to gain from this procedure, even at its more comfortable 1080i, since the digital signal must pass through an analog gauntlet once it reaches the monitor. The real problem with the Sony player, as you seem to have encountered, is that it has a couple of bugs that seem to show up after about a month of use: The tray often locks and/or the player refuses to read/play disks. I'd be cautious about recommending it for that reason, but not because its advertised advantages are a hoax. They aren't.

Ed