Heard some new (to me, anyway) speakers today...

[Jimmy C]

Well, tax refund time is coming, and I haven't bought myself anything in quite a while. I have a LOT of listening to do, and I'm definitely not rushing into anything. New York is a great place to demo gear - I must have 20 good stores within 50 miles! Was thinking about maybe selling my Studio 60s, buying a new pair of speakers (the most fun change for me!), and possibly a tubed integrated for my livingroom stereo. I can then put the Rotel separates in the bedroom. All of this is, of course, IF I can find stuff that "blows away" my current humble gear...

My demo included Conrad-Johnson SS separates. We listened to my Minu Cinelu, Keb Mo, Tim (?) Waits (sp?) and a few other things. The five speakers we listened to ranged from $2200 to $4K. I'll start by saying the set-up was bad, and everything (except the Spendor) seemed a bit bright. I would bet a home demo would be more telling... I say this because EVERY pair of speakers I (or my friends) bought or demoed did indeed sound better at home. Not sure why. Also, we listened in the right one-third of the room... boundaries were far from equidistant. At least I got to get a feel for each in the SAME room. If any of these were in a "final round", I would ask to borrow them for a few days.

First was the Spendor S6. These was a bit of a let down... quite "hooty" sounding. Sorry - I don't pretend to have a grasp of every imaginary "audiophile" term, but I think you get my drift. I understand these are a low level model, but they WERE $2200. My M20s eat them for lunch in any area. The top was smooth, but dynamics were lacking. The store said if I didn't like these, I probably wouldn't like anything from the company unless I ponied up $5K - maybe, maybe not. I suppose I would have to get into a higher level series. For some reason, I'm not discounting Spendor yet!

Next were the Joseph Audio RM25s - these were good. They are nicely balanced, coherent, and revealing. Bass was pretty deep and tight. Nice cabinetry, about $3500. These "smelled" (and sounded!) of quality.

The Legacy Classics were up next... again, a bit of a disappointment. With twin 10" woofers, I was expecting some serious bass. My Revels (with a 6.5") at least "appear" to dig deeper. Illusion? A function of the room? Dunno. The rest of the presentation was OK, but no lust factor at all. Cheesy enclosure (looked like the banal finish on my Dayton BR1s), forgot the price but I believe well under $3K.. The rear ambient tweeter didn't seem to do anything for the soundstage - probably due to poor positioning.

My salesman (a store ower?) is actually making his own speakers, "Aural". He is a young guy, but seemed quite knowelgeable These were a 3-way with a stepped-baffle. Probably the most "open" of the 5, but I thought there was too much upper mid energy. They did, however, reveal the pluck of the string quite well... piano also sounded good . Maybe he'll be famous one day...

The suprise for me were the Dali Helicon 400s.They employed twin 6.5"s, a soft-dome and a small ribbon, IIRC. These were on the smoother side of things with a gorgeous, lute-shaped, heavily lacquered Rosewood enclosure. These were the most sonically similar (of the 5) to the Josephs, and were my faves of the lot along with the RM25s - the looks are a bonus. $4K retail. The store said ALL of these speakers would be subject to a hefty discount.

I suppose I have also learned the value of my Revels - none of these "bowled me over", even at twice the price. Hell, I don't even have esoteric electronics. I also must admit I didn't think my speakers were that great in the store... too brash. I had to take them home to see what the fuss was about. It was a night and day difference.

So, that was my fun for the day. Next up will be the Von Schweikerts, Harbeths, more Spendors and a company you probably have never heard of - "Audio Note". They are a redesign of old Snells, and the owner's name is Pe... HA! Ya didn't REALLY think I was serious, didja? ;^P

Now... as far as integrateds go, that Prima Luna looks interesting... :*)

[RGA]

Did you have the Revels hooked up to that gear in that room too?

[Jimmy C]

Did you have the Revels hooked up to that gear in that room too?

...doesn't sell that brand, but I'm sure they would be willing.

At the time I auditioned my speaks, about $2K was my limit. My closest competition was the Dyn 1.3 (which I borrowed at home) and the Vandy 2CE, which I did a direct comparison.

Maybe it's because they play this stuff too loud? Everything did indeed sound a bit better at lower volume. But... if there is a bad coloration (whatever) compared to the very next speaker, well... it's out. And, if one picks out their favorite, AND get even better results at home... that's a bonus. Maybe I'm just being too picky.

Since my local AN dealer doesn't sell them anymore, I think I would have to travel to CT. Well... finding a willing local owner is a possibility - that's how I heard the de Capos. I can also look into the PA store... my mom-in-law lives there.

[RGA]

I'm not telling you what to listen to - I'm just saying it's not that easy to compare speakers in one store to what you have gotten used to at home and with what you already bought. I like the De Capo a lot less now than I did before because I am more used to my speakers - so when I go auditioning I usually like to hear my speakers at the store and need to listen to other speakers longer than I normally would to let me adjust to what it is they're about.

[Jimmy C]

I'm not telling you what to listen to - I'm just saying it's not that easy to compare speakers in one store to what you have gotten used to at home and with what you already bought. I like the De Capo a lot less now than I did before because I am more used to my speakers - so when I go auditioning I usually like to hear my speakers at the store and need to listen to other speakers longer than I normally would to let me adjust to what it is they're about.

...which is why I feel it's important to listen to speakers (same store, room, and electronics) that are out of the target price range, BUT sound really good to you. THEN find a speaker, in your range that has at least SOME of those good qualities... for me, it was the Revel F50s... outta my price range at over $7K, but I liked a lot of what they did. I kinda view the M20s as a "baby" of these. Hell, the dealer dropped the B&Ws (he personally had the 801s) for these, at LESS money.

And remember (on AA, I believe) ... you were pretty quick to say the Sophias (not quoting you) were not that much better (if any, according to you) than YOUR speakers. You were somewhat suprised at the over (around?) $10K tariff. Did YOU have the same set-up in that particular case? We can only do what's feasable...

And yes, "adjusting" is also real, IMO.

I know you sometimes feel the room, as well as a poor recording is a "cop out". I don't totally agree with this... the room/speaker interface positively has an effect, as well as software quality. If anything, your Js (as well as my Snells) require MORE stringent placement. I DO, however, agree, what good is a speaker that makes only 20% of your music sound any good?

Boy, you would have loved the convo we had about "well, if the speaker sounds good with a crappy disc, it's not accurate"...lol. I bit my tongue a bit... The convo went on from there, but I'll stop...

[Woochifer]

Very interesting set of speakers that you've auditioned. These are models that are not very easy to find, so it's interesting to read your observations, since you're a current Revel and former Paradigm owner. Ironically, my local Paradigm dealer also carries Revel, Joseph Audio, and Spendor. I might have to pay a visit soon.


And remember (on AA, I believe) ... you were pretty quick to say the Sophias (not quoting you) were not that much better (if any, according to you) than YOUR speakers. You were somewhat suprised at the over (around?) $10K tariff. Did YOU have the same set-up in that particular case? We can only do what's feasable...

The Wilson Sophias were a pretty poor value IMO. I heard them on a Theta rig with everything in analog bypass mode using a 96/24 disc. Even though it was an acoustically controlled room, those speakers had more noticeable high frequency ringing than the Studio v.3 speakers that I'd just auditioned in an adjacent demo room. The speakers had a weighty sound and did a decent enough job with the midrange, but I could think of plenty of lower priced speakers that I would rather own.

[Jimmy C]

Very interesting set of speakers that you've auditioned. These are models that are not very easy to find, so it's interesting to read your observations, since you're a current Revel and former Paradigm owner. Ironically, my local Paradigm dealer also carries Revel, Joseph Audio, and Spendor. I might have to pay a visit soon.



The Wilson Sophias were a pretty poor value IMO. I heard them on a Theta rig with everything in analog bypass mode using a 96/24 disc. Even though it was an acoustically controlled room, those speakers had more noticeable high frequency ringing than the Studio v.3 speakers that I'd just auditioned in an adjacent demo room. The speakers had a weighty sound and did a decent enough job with the midrange, but I could think of plenty of lower priced speakers that I would rather own.

...I'm STILL a Paradigm owner (at the moment). Tell ya what... for all the faults my 60s have, they still are a good value (maybe more?) at the price I bought them for. Now, the new Studio 60s are about $1400, IIRC. I would (at this price point) rather do better mini mon (plus stands) if my budget was circa $1K. From what I have heard, I would hold on to that theory if my budget was even $2K... maybe more.

I have my 60s on right now... not bad at all...

[RGA]

...which is why I feel it's important to listen to speakers (same store, room, and electronics) that are out of the target price range, BUT sound really good to you. THEN find a speaker, in your range that has at least SOME of those good qualities... for me, it was the Revel F50s... outta my price range at over $7K, but I liked a lot of what they did. I kinda view the M20s as a "baby" of these. Hell, the dealer dropped the B&Ws (he personally had the 801s) for these, at LESS money.

And remember (on AA, I believe) ... you were pretty quick to say the Sophias (not quoting you) were not that much better (if any, according to you) than YOUR speakers. You were somewhat suprised at the over (around?) $10K tariff. Did YOU have the same set-up in that particular case? We can only do what's feasable...

And yes, "adjusting" is also real, IMO.

I know you sometimes feel the room, as well as a poor recording is a "cop out". I don't totally agree with this... the room/speaker interface positively has an effect, as well as software quality. If anything, your Js (as well as my Snells) require MORE stringent placement. I DO, however, agree, what good is a speaker that makes only 20% of your music sound any good?

Boy, you would have loved the convo we had about "well, if the speaker sounds good with a crappy disc, it's not accurate"...lol. I bit my tongue a bit... The convo went on from there, but I'll stop...

You are quite correct and I still believe the room is a cop out to a large extent - you simply need to spend some time positioning them and not treat every dealer like they're dim-bulbs. The good dealers know how to position the speakers reasonably well to get the most out of the room they're in - and they could generlaly care less so long as you end up with something they sell they'll be happy.

The Wilsons were housed in a "better" room than I have by miles and with exceptional - well supposedly exceptional front end gear with not just Mark Levinson but ALSO Krell - I mean as names go for SS gear it doesn't get much higher end than that. The speakers are 16K and like I said in my review they sounded good and kept me listening - but they have some problems and for the money it makes you wonder why a standmount with significanly less internal volume would SEEM to have far superior bass response and without the hickups in other areas all for considerably less money and not needing a $50k front end?

I have not heard any of the speakers on your list - you don't have to convince me about price not having total correspondance with sound quality. Spender from what I have read is inconsistant even with their supporters who like certain moodels but not others.

As for recording qualities well I have a pretty good idea where I stand on the issue - there are bad recordings yes but there are more bad trebles from bad speakers (despite the good reviews).

[dean_martin]

Next up will be the Von Schweikerts

If you audition the VR1s, I would be interested in how they compare to your M20s. I have a Revel dealer nearby where I've heard the next model up (M32?-floorstander). I should be able to audition the latest standmount, too (M25, maybe?). Obviously, I'm not up to date on the latest Revel model #s. I've also found a reasonably close Von Schweikert dealer where I hope to audition the VR1s soon.

[Jimmy C]

If you audition the VR1s, I would be interested in how they compare to your M20s. I have a Revel dealer nearby where I've heard the next model up (M32?-floorstander). I should be able to audition the latest standmount, too (M25, maybe?). Obviously, I'm not up to date on the latest Revel model #s. I've also found a reasonably close Von Schweikert dealer where I hope to audition the VR1s soon.

...the Von Schweikerts are GREAT for the money. I think the VR4s hover around the $4K mark (if I have my models in order)... I'm not sure my nearest store has these ready, we'll see. I have to make an appointment. I would actually like to find the stand-mount to be KILLER, around $1K.

You probably heard the F32, used to be F30s. Supposedly, the bass is tighter on the 32, but also leaner. Makes sense... the new one uses twin 7"s (6.5"s?) instead of one 10". I'll admit that is one minor gripe with my M20s - the bass is a bit loose. BUT - it is also quite ample... you can shake the walls and pressureize the room at low/moderate levels... not bad for the speaks sitting 3' from any wall! Sometimes the sub is redundant, but I use it for leaner CDs/LPs.

That's another thing... I want a speaker that works well ANYWHERE in a room... my left speaker is wide open (no sidewall) to a small foyer area to the front door. Well, there is a half-wall on the left side... the front (speaker half) is open, and the seating area half is closed, if ya get my drift. I think I have confused myself at this point :*) The right speak is about 3' from it's sidewall. I'm suprised the soundstage is as balanced as it is... no problems at all.

I'll try to get there (the V.S. dealer) within the next two (or so) weeks... it's been so friggin' cold here in N.Y., and I haven't been working. A great time to go out and demo gear! He also carries Spendor, so I'll give them another shot.

I would like to hear the Merlins as well. Might be a toughie, as well as being at the very upper end of the budget.

Yes, I'll post impressions as soon as I hear them...