Do speaker cables (cheap vs not so cheap) make a diffrence?

[sip]

I bought Monster 16 gauge standard speaker cables ($35 Canadian for 50 feet) to replace Recoton 18 gauge ($10 for 100 feet) I currently have. The salesman who sold me the Monster wires told me it is the quality not the thickness of the cable that matter. Is Monster standard speaker cables better than the cheap $10 cables? Did I waste my money on Monster cables? (Why I bought the new cables in the first place? I inquired from the salesman who sold me a new pair of speakers why I get a hiss from the new speakers. He suggested to upgrade the speaker cables to eliminated the hiss a he said it is due to some interference). Thanks.

[markw]

You should see what some people are willing to pay for cables!

In your case, either cable will work just as well. The hiss is caused by the receiver, not the speaker cables. Be wary of this guy in the future. He is either ignorant or he lies like a rug.

[shokhead]

I think big bucks for cables is BS. Having said that and reading many coments, i'm think'n it might make a very small difference for very high end stuff. I do think on the other end,having crap cables will make a negitive difference. Most middle of the road stuff,Radio shack will work.

[bargainseeker]

The gauge of the wire can be important, particularly if you have long runs of wire from the receiver or amplifier to the back speakers. What I use is this wire (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=100-155) with these connectors (http://www.hififorless.com/showProduct.php?productid=58358) on each end.

[Mania]

although i doubt the new cables will make a difference, the only way to find out is to try them out. You probably don't need monster cables, but if your current cables are in some way defective or improperly sheilded, replacing them might make a difference. If the new cables exhibit the same problem, take them back and demand your money back!

[musicoverall]

I bought Monster 16 gauge standard speaker cables ($35 Canadian for 50 feet) to replace Recoton 18 gauge ($10 for 100 feet) I currently have. The salesman who sold me the Monster wires told me it is the quality not the thickness of the cable that matter. Is Monster standard speaker cables better than the cheap $10 cables? Did I waste my money on Monster cables? (Why I bought the new cables in the first place? I inquired from the salesman who sold me a new pair of speakers why I get a hiss from the new speakers. He suggested to upgrade the speaker cables to eliminated the hiss a he said it is due to some interference). Thanks.

Did the new cables get rid of your hiss? I don't suppose they did. OTOH, I've found that upgrading cables does in some cases provide a worthwhile improvement in my systems overall sound. But it's hard for anyone but you to answer your questions. Try them out and see if the amount you spent is worth any improvement, should there be one. Often times, there isn't. It's system dependant. And I agree that you should get your money back if they don't improve your system, particularly the hiss. The salesman told you the Monster cable would get rid of the hiss. If they don't, demand a refund.

[Rycher]

In my systems, the upgrade from cheap cables to better (read: not esoteric) cables was in better bass and overall soundstage. Nothing major by any means, but a small improvement. I'm guessing that the reason is because the thicker cable is able to deliver more current when the source calls on the amplifier to deliver it. Does wire reduce hiss? I seriously doubt it. Does wire make a BIG difference? I doubt that too. Does it have an overall effect on the sound that an amplifier delivers to your speakers? Yes, it does. Whether it's a small effect, large effect, positive, or negative, or just plain unhearable effect will largely depend on room acoustics and equipment. But hey, that's just my opinion. :)

[Mitch_J]

I never thought they'd make much difference. I just bought a new set of speakers and had them hooked up using the old wire until my new Wires came in. I already liked my speakers already. I swapped out the 12AWG wires with my new 4 M. Cobalt cables Ultimates and definately heard a difference. Whether or not it was simply a matter of 4 or 5 db's louder thus making me feel they sounded better, I like them. Besides they have a 90 money back trial so I figured, What do I have to lose? Also a lifetime warrenty. The only problem I have is that they are so thick that I can't run them up my speaker stands. But they are very good looking (compared to basic speaker wire) that I don't mind seeing them.

[WAF!]

I was using tributaries $3/feet cable and decided to try monster reference Z2 speaker cables for my mains and center channel to see if they would really make a difference. The shop I bought them from allows for a refund before 30 days. I still have the cables after the 30 days and feel the improvement in sound was justified. Highs got smoother with more extension, bass sounds better, and imaging improved. Was it worth the money? I think so. I went ahead and got a monster reference 200i interconnect for my CDP which improved the sound even more. I will be returning the monster interconnect to try a Kimber Hero interconnect next.

The monster reference may be more than you may want to pay. Try the reference for a week or so and see how you like them. If you don't think the improvement in sound is justified then return them. The cables really shined for me at louder listening levels but at lower levels the improvements may not be worth the money.

[E-Stat]

I bought Monster 16 gauge standard speaker cables ($35 Canadian for 50 feet) to replace Recoton 18 gauge ($10 for 100 feet) I currently have. The salesman who sold me the Monster wires told me it is the quality not the thickness of the cable that matter. Is Monster standard speaker cables better than the cheap $10 cables? Did I waste my money on Monster cables? (Why I bought the new cables in the first place? I inquired from the salesman who sold me a new pair of speakers why I get a hiss from the new speakers. He suggested to upgrade the speaker cables to eliminated the hiss a he said it is due to some interference). Thanks.
It has been my experience that higher priced cables only matter with higher priced audio systems. They are the icing to a $20k cake.

For most systems, however, they offer little benefit. The best bang for your buck is simply 12 gauge zip cord available most anywhere. The notion that better speaker wires tame hiss is incorrect.

rw

[kexodusc]

Can't imagine these Monster's being a whole lot better than what you had, if at all, however...I have a slightly different take on this thread.
My experience with hearing improvements when changing cables can be directly attrributed to the connectors rather than the wiring itself. Often times the way the cables are terminated at the connector end varies (in quality, durability) and the type of connectors themselves may be different (bigger, tighter, better material)...In my case, it's made the difference between a subwoofer engaging itself when signals are sent at really low volumes, or requiring more gain...
I've also wiggled a few of the standard Radio Shack Gold cables right behind the connections, sometimes that introduces a bit of static, sometimes not...I think this could be a quality control thing...I still buy them because they sound good enough to me, but if I can find "better" AR or Monster cables on clearance I usually buy those instead.
I must admit though, when the cheap cables are working, I can't say I definitely hear any improvments.

[WAF!]

Excellent article regarding speaker cables and interconnects.

http://www.stereotimes.com/cables042501.shtm

[NoMSG]

Excellent article regarding speaker cables and interconnects.

http://www.stereotimes.com/cables042501.shtm

Unless I'm missing something, the writer of the article is describing his own subjective and biased opinions about the effects of different speaker cables/wires. I mean, how does this article provide any more insight on whether expensive cables are objectively--as in double-blind test-- better than 12-guage wires?

I guess, I'm not saying anything new, but every time an objective test has been done, the listener was not able to distinguish between the crap wires and the good cables.

[markw]

I guess, I'm not saying anything new, but every time an objective test has been done, the listener was not able to distinguish between the crap wires and the good cables.The common excuses given vary from :

1) too much pressure to listen carefully
2) unfamiliar with the music
3) unfamiliar with the room
4) unfamiliar with the equipment
5) not enough time to get used to the sound

Well, you get the idea. Any rationalization at all to get away from the simple fact that their ears alone were unable to discern any difference.

*For the young, that's a famous quote from the original Kung Fu TV series with David Carridine of the early 70's

[Lensman]

I bought Monster 16 gauge standard speaker cables ($35 Canadian for 50 feet) to replace Recoton 18 gauge ($10 for 100 feet) I currently have. The salesman who sold me the Monster wires told me it is the quality not the thickness of the cable that matter. Is Monster standard speaker cables better than the cheap $10 cables? Did I waste my money on Monster cables? (Why I bought the new cables in the first place? I inquired from the salesman who sold me a new pair of speakers why I get a hiss from the new speakers. He suggested to upgrade the speaker cables to eliminated the hiss a he said it is due to some interference). Thanks.

Like the others, I'm curious to know if the Monster wire helped with the hiss issue. Again, like the others, I believe it sounds more like amplifier noise than anything else. However I'll pass on some things from my own experience:

I have known speakers to pick up noise from electrical interference due to the speaker wires being entangled with a bunch of other non-shielded interconnects and power cords around the back of the receiver. This taught me many years ago that it's better to toss the cheap interconnects that come packed with most components for cabling with good shielding and to always be tidy with my wiring.

The "thickness of the cable" does make a difference up to a certain point. Wire that's too thin for the length it's being run can have too much resistance in it, reducing sound quality. On the other hand, wire can never cause problems because it is too thick, though spending more for something thicker may not yield any noticeable improvement. For example: if you're running typical 8 ohm speakers a distance of 50 feet or less from an average receiver, 16 gauge should be just fine. But it's unlikely it would sound any better than 18 gauge over a run of 10-15 feet.

Quality does make a difference. Some cheap speaker wire actually corrodes over time (in some cases a short time). I currently have a house someone prewired for surround sound with cheap 14 gauge wire. When I moved in, I removed the wall plates and discovered the wire had turned green from corrosion. For this reason, I won't buy speaker wire from places like Home Depot or Wal-Mart. However, I've used Radio Shack's speaker wire for years without any problems.

As with the quality of the wire, the quality of the wire connectors makes a difference for the reason stated above and because cheap connectors may not make a good connection with the wire (as Kexodusc stated). Thus if you don't have good connectors for the wire, it's better to just connect the bare wire directly to the speakers and receiver.

[radiocontrol]

Speaker cables and interconnects do make a substantial difference in the quality of your sound system if you keep in mind that your system will only be as good as its weakest link. Recently, I had an opportunity to purchase $600 speaker cables for $125. You betcha I bought a few pairs at various lengths. The difference in sound was immediately discernable. Better than anything I've ever used before. I bet the guy who paid $600 feels a bit sheepish though....

[krabapple]

Bty your logic, that result suggests that your cables were the weakest link in your system. Do you realize how fantastically unlikely that is?

So, would you feel sheepish to find that your $125 cables sound no different than
$12.50 worth of cable from Home Depot, if you were to compare them without knowing in advance which was which?

It is not at all unusual to discern an 'immediate difference in quality' when a component is swapped out. In fact, it's not unusual to have that perception even when the component swapped in is exactly the same one (but the listener doesn't know it) What does that tell you about human percepetion?

[Defshep]

Nevermind my post "Detectable Differences In Monster"!

[musicoverall]

Bty your logic, that result suggests that your cables were the weakest link in your system. Do you realize how fantastically unlikely that is?

So, would you feel sheepish to find that your $125 cables sound no different than
$12.50 worth of cable from Home Depot, if you were to compare them without knowing in advance which was which?

It is not at all unusual to discern an 'immediate difference in quality' when a component is swapped out. In fact, it's not unusual to have that perception even when the component swapped in is exactly the same one (but the listener doesn't know it) What does that tell you about human percepetion?

While the cables are likely not the weakest link in any system, they're infinitely less expensive to replace than speakers. I bought the best speakers and ancillary components I could afford and spent a commensurate amount on cables. Until I did so, they were indeed the weakest link in the system I was able to afford.

Yes, I'd feel sheepish if my cables sounded no different than $12.50 worth of HD cable - sheepish and incredulous! It isn't a believable scenario, however. I can't speak for those that may have been fooled during a blind test when components weren't swapped out but as I've said before, I trust my senses. That said, I am about to embark on some blind testing. The methodology will be slightly unorthodox and it certainly won't prove anything to anyone as despite the outcome, the two factions will still cling to their beliefs... meaning that a positive outcome won't be believed by anyone, anyway. But it should be interesting to me.

[alimaga]

Bty your logic, that result suggests that your cables were the weakest link in your system. Do you realize how fantastically unlikely that is?

So, would you feel sheepish to find that your $125 cables sound no different than
$12.50 worth of cable from Home Depot, if you were to compare them without knowing in advance which was which?

It is not at all unusual to discern an 'immediate difference in quality' when a component is swapped out. In fact, it's not unusual to have that perception even when the component swapped in is exactly the same one (but the listener doesn't know it) What does that tell you about human percepetion?

Anytime I see a thread like this, both camps (those who buy expensive cables and those who are more frugal) take a hard stand. Having said that, I have both expensive and regular home depot/zip cord type cables. Cables do make a difference.

The most convenient and objective way to determine the change or lack of it is by putting your ears close to your speakers (6 inches or closer). Most will hear noise/hiss. Good cables (speaker and interconnects) will reduce or "eliminate" this background noise. That has been my target to keep my ears objective. Any swapping that you put into your system will have an effect on it. So, eliminate the subjective musical interpretation of the changes by keeping it simple....did the cables reduce or eliminate the background noise? If it did, then the cables made a difference. Then and only then should you do critical listening. The blacker passages should be more dramatic and when you have silence in your music it should be more pronounced (i.e. you hear nothing at all).

Offcourse all else being equal bad AC power, excess rfi or emi will have a dramatic effect on what noise is picked up by your system. Case in point, when I pause my CD player to talk using my cell phone, I pick up background noise that is clearly discernable. Therefore, having good shielded cables, good power conditioner and maybe even an UPS will help in this regard. My buddy let me borrow one of his inexpensive line conditioner and it helped a little.

Finally, this is a listing of the cables that I have used for comparison: Analysis Plus, MIT, Kimber, home made silvers and finally different Monsters (and waiting to audition, TMC interconnects and cables).

[markw]

The most convenient and objective way to determine the change or lack of it is by putting your ears close to your speakers (6 inches or closer). Most will hear noise/hiss. Good cables (speaker and interconnects) will reduce or "eliminate" this background noise. Actually, this is not a good sign. It's a sign that the cables unnaturally attenuate the high end. The cables have no way of discerning whetehr they are attenuating noise or part of the musical signal. Highs is highs.

[E-Stat]

Actually, this is not a good sign. It's a sign that the cables unnaturally attenuate the high end. The cables have no way of discerning whetehr they are attenuating noise or part of the musical signal. Highs is highs.
Except of course when the "highs" are RF inflicted garbage. Some cables do know when they are attenuating noise.

rw

[markw]

Except of course when the "highs" are RF inflicted garbage. Some cables do know when they are attenuating noise.

rwOnly if they are shielded. Most intercoonnects are and and not too many speaker cables do that.

[E-Stat]

Only if they are shielded.
I find that to be an important proviso. All of my cables are shielded..

rw

[Monstrous Mike]

I find that to be an important proviso. All of my cables are shielded..

rw
In this post, http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/104167.html, Jon Risch says: "However, if you do not have an overt or known sub-threshold RFI problem, then I would strongly recommend that you not be concerned about shielding your speaker cables, it is only done as a neccessary evil."

Do you have shielded speaker wires? If so, why?

At this link, http://www.trinitysoundcompany.com/wire-up.html, they say "In fact, the higher reactance of shielded speaker cables can induce deleterious parasitc oscillation."

[E-Stat]

IDo you have shielded speaker wires? If so, why?
Yes. While shielding was not the primary reason I purchased them, there is plenty of radiated RF around my house with multiple wireless phones and an 802.11g wireless network.


At this link, http://www.trinitysoundcompany.com/wire-up.html, they say "In fact, the higher reactance of shielded speaker cables can induce deleterious parasitc oscillation."
I presume they are referring to inductive reactance. My cables are of a very low inductance design. I doubt they have ever used a solid core shield with their PA systems.

But, any company that works with Elvira "Mistress of the Dark" is ok by me. :)

rw

[Mash]

Roger Russel, Head of McIntosh Labs, has a wonderful and very readable site on speaker wires.



This is a fun read presented by a disinterested authority who discusses not only wire sizing and extensive test results but also the economic realities of speaker wires.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[MusicLG]

I think speaker cables will make your system sound as good as you want them to...it's about as subjective as the speakers themselves (within a given price point, of course). I do not think anyone would be happy using Radio Shack crap with an $8,000 system...so splurge and feel good. There is a direct corrolation between enjoyment/bragging rights and the amount you pay. After all, who else but you can determine whether you put too much $ into your system?

[musicoverall]

I do not think anyone would be happy using Radio Shack crap with an $8,000 system...

Most likely not. If they dropped that kind of cash on a sound system, why would they then muck it up with inferior wire?

[Pat D]

Most likely not. If they dropped that kind of cash on a sound system, why would they then muck it up with inferior wire?
My system cost more than $8000 but I see no sonic advantage in using anything beyond generic wires and I'm really not interested in the prestige of owning expensive wires. It seems no one has ever proved there is any audible benefit in expensive wires after all these years, so it would seem to me to be a waste of money..

[theaudiohobby]

My system cost more than $8000 but I see no sonic advantage in using anything beyond generic wires and I'm really not interested in the prestige of owning expensive wires. It seems no one has ever proved there is any audible benefit in expensive wires after all these years, so it would seem to me to be a waste of money..

I will have to agree with you on this one, rather spend that money on room treatments and reap unambigous benefits.

[musicoverall]

My system cost more than $8000 but I see no sonic advantage in using anything beyond generic wires and I'm really not interested in the prestige of owning expensive wires. It seems no one has ever proved there is any audible benefit in expensive wires after all these years, so it would seem to me to be a waste of money..

I "see" no sonic advantage in higher definition cables, either. I "hear" them! ;)

All kidding aside, yours is the second (at least) post I've read where the poster is seemingly going to wait until someone proves that wires can make an improvement. Why not try them yourself and find out?

[musicoverall]

I will have to agree with you on this one, rather spend that money on room treatments and reap unambigous benefits.

I certainly agree that room acoustics are a much higher priority than cables. I prioritize as recordings first, then speakers, then room treatments in the first wave. Analog front end is the second wave. Third comes electronics and fourth is cables. Dead last is tweaks and except for isolation for my turntable, I haven't found any that I could reliably say were of any benefit. So in all honesty, cables are the last thing on my list. That doesn't make them unimportant, just less important.

[theaudiohobby]

So in all honesty, cables are the last thing on my list. That doesn't make them unimportant, just less important.

Agreed ;)

[Pat D]

I "see" no sonic advantage in higher definition cables, either. I "hear" them! ;)

All kidding aside, yours is the second (at least) post I've read where the poster is seemingly going to wait until someone proves that wires can make an improvement. Why not try them yourself and find out?
For one thing, I have never noticed that wires (unless defective) make any audible difference, except for phono cables, where capacitance can be important. Whatever I may notice when changing cables (which is a process of training), I invariably notice the same things when going back to the originals.

[musicoverall]

For one thing, I have never noticed that wires (unless defective) make any audible difference, except for phono cables, where capacitance can be important. Whatever I may notice when changing cables (which is a process of training), I invariably notice the same things when going back to the originals.

Pat D,

Then you have tried cables and they don't make any difference in your system. I respect that. After reading this thread again, my original comment:

"Most likely not. If they dropped that kind of cash on a sound system, why would they then muck it up with inferior wire?"

...was trollish and baiting. It was totally unnecessary. So I thank you for responding as a gentleman rather than in kind and I apologize to this forum and A/R for my post. I appreciate that the moderators are trying to keep this place civil and I'll try to do my part not to purposefully bait the opposing side without having something meaningful to share.

[B15serv]

I have a simple way of looking at cables. You need to view them as pipes with water flowing through. If you have only 20% capacity flowing, a larger pipe wont do anything for you. But if you have so much water pushing through that its spraying out the other end than you need to upgrade. This theory takes care of all but one part of cables.... the fact that different ones will each have their own "character". if your equipment can carry that character to the speakers than you might favor it. I decided to test this whole cable war on some reasonably priced interconnect cables to see what happened.

The cables were Acoustic research basic series (gold package) for about $12, Acoustic Research ProII $25, and Monster thx $50. All available at any bestbuy for the common consumer. Ill start by saying that the AR ProII cable had a much better soundstage and were immediately noticed when switched. The test music ranged from Rammstien to Dave Mathews to Dave Brubeck. The image was simply more accurate with the better cables. Now thats something that we could have figured since they are both from the same company but the real question is if the double-priced monsters did anything. My test songs were DMB's "what would you say" live and "god thinks" from Voltaire. First with DMB i noticed immediately that Carters' snare drum had more presence, however the bass have a different tone that I didnt quite favor. Horizontal image was the same but the drums had a little more detail as far as depth. With the track from Voltaire I noticed a tad bit more separation with the acoustic guitar and the vocals although the midbass seemed slightly strange sounding. A little bit unclear to put a label on it I guess.

So what does all of this mean? It means that cables have their own sound. The monsters played with the soundstage in a way that I liked. However the character of the monsters changed some sounds in a way that I dont prefer. The AR ProII's are what im currently using because I prefer their "sound". So when people ask if cables make a difference I tell them yes, but not always one that matches the price. I have it hard because I listen to alot of metal, the budget on metal recordings is the factor that makes me sometimes prefer a cheaper interconnect. Alot of the "audiophiles" have $30,000 systems that sound like a pair of KLH crap for anything other than jazz/classical.

Keep in mind the associated equipment for my little test is all very real world.
Yamaha 5790 Receiver ($400 open item)
Athena Tower Speakers ($150/pair open item)
Samsung DVD-HD850 ($150 new)
Monster speaker wire ($80/100 ft)

I hate when stereophile does a review on their budget buys and hook it all up with nordost and marklevinson. its as stupid as polk audio testing their speakers in a $300,000 suspended room with no resonance.

[bluecollar]

With speaker wire you are transferring current from point A to B. As long as the guage is big enough to allow unrestricted flow you can't tell the difference from expensive to cheap wire. Line level cable is another story.The inner wire running through the jackets are too small for proper signal transfer in most cases in cheap cables, not to mention not properly insulated. Keep in mind I'm talking about the basic color coded cables hanging on the department store racks for a couple of dollars. If you are using quality components you should at least buy the midrange line of cable from a reputable brand that is well known for manufacturing quality cable.This will make certain you have a good clean transfer for digital audio and video.

[FLZapped]

The most convenient and objective way to determine the change or lack of it is by putting your ears close to your speakers (6 inches or closer). Most will hear noise/hiss. Good cables (speaker and interconnects) will reduce or "eliminate" this background noise.


If they do, throw them away, because they have severly altered either the output level, or severly attenuated the high frequencies, or both.

The hiss you hear is the themal noise created by the electronics and your cables bloody well pass this if you expect full fidelity.

(This assumes a normally operating system)

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

Line level cable is another story.The inner wire running through the jackets are too small for proper signal transfer in most cases

No. There is almost no power being transfered. Typical amps are 10,000 ohms input impedance(or higher) and maximum voltage to drive an amp to full output is around 1.5 volts for most designs, which makes the power level 225 microwatts or 0.000225 watts. Signal transfer is not a problem for small guage wire at these levels.


not to mention not properly insulated.

Huh? What is that supposed to mean?

-Bruce

[markw]

Most likely not. If they dropped that kind of cash on a sound system, why would they then muck it up with inferior wire?You seem to confuse the term "inferior" to less expensive and that's not always the case.

As you yourself found out, the differnce between two cables, one costing 100 times the other is much, much less dramatic than you thought. Small enough that there were times you couldn't even tell the difference.

[jtgofish]

Over the years I have tried all sorts of cables.Most sound different but not necessarilly better.Some of the really expensive ones -Audience for example, seem to be made to have a particular type of sound so that gullible audiophiles convince themselves they are worth the ridiculous cost.In effect a lot of cables are just fiddling with tone or frequency response which may or may not suit your system or room acoustics.Having said this however most cables,especially multi strand types[like monster] and standard issue do sound pretty bad.Timing seems to be wrong.Solid core copper like standard ceiling lighting cable works much better in most systems.This is best kept to shortish runs however but will sound better than most dedicated cables regardless of cost.These sound very smooth and coherent and is about $1 /metre .I use Perrelli V90.Axon also make solid core which works well.
JT

[bluecollar]

No. There is almost no power being transfered. Typical amps are 10,000 ohms input impedance(or higher) and maximum voltage to drive an amp to full output is around 1.5 volts for most designs, which makes the power level 225 microwatts or 0.000225 watts. Signal transfer is not a problem for small guage wire at these levels.



Huh? What is that supposed to mean?

-Bruce
By insulation I mean shielding from interference. There is a definate effect on a high powered subwoofer using very cheap interconnects.

[musicoverall]

You seem to confuse the term "inferior" to less expensive and that's not always the case.

As you yourself found out, the differnce between two cables, one costing 100 times the other is much, much less dramatic than you thought. Small enough that there were times you couldn't even tell the difference.

The inferior cable was specified as "Radio Shack crap" which is decidedly inferior to just about anything I've tried. No confusion on my end.

I once heard a portion of a selection by a young jazz saxophonist and as I listened, I mistakenly took it to be a long lost improvisation by jazz legend Albert Ayler. Ayler's style was clearly in evidence. That doesn't mean I'd pay the same money to hear the youngster and it doesn't make him Albert Ayler - it means the ears can be fooled, as the objective camp is quick to point out. Who knows what mood I was in at the time? Er... the fact that Ayler is now dead doesn't figure into what I would pay to hear him live, although I suppose it should! :)

On 3 of the days I tested cables, I missed the differences. Better to miss it 3 times than suffer through 8 days of inferior sound as there were 8 times when the differences were obvious. The cost is a consideration, of course. To many the wires I bought would not be worth the money. To me they were. Good sound and good music are things I try not to scrimp on, to the limits of my financial resources, natch!

[markw]

The inferior cable was specified as "Radio Shack crap" which is decidedly inferior to just about anything I've tried. No confusion on my end.

I once heard a portion of a selection by a young jazz saxophonist and as I listened, I mistakenly took it to be a long lost improvisation by jazz legend Albert Ayler. Ayler's style was clearly in evidence. That doesn't mean I'd pay the same money to hear the youngster and it doesn't make him Albert Ayler - it means the ears can be fooled, as the objective camp is quick to point out. Who knows what mood I was in at the time? Er... the fact that Ayler is now dead doesn't figure into what I would pay to hear him live, although I suppose it should! :)

On 3 of the days I tested cables, I missed the differences. Better to miss it 3 times than suffer through 8 days of inferior sound as there were 8 times when the differences were obvious. The cost is a consideration, of course. To many the wires I bought would not be worth the money. To me they were. Good sound and good music are things I try not to scrimp on, to the limits of my financial resources, natch!.. .just how inferior could it be if, for three days you, couldn't discern any difference? I don't see how you could say you "suffered" if you couldn't tell the difference.

[FLZapped]

By insulation I mean shielding from interference. There is a definate effect on a high powered subwoofer using very cheap interconnects.


Insulation does not provide shielding.

[musicoverall]

.. .just how inferior could it be if, for three days you, couldn't discern any difference? I don't see how you could say you "suffered" if you couldn't tell the difference.

I believe I said I suffered not the 3 days I missed the differences but the 8 days I could. The word "suffer" of course is too strong but I got less of what I desire in the playback of recorded music with the inferior cable. I already own the cables and I see no reason to get rid of them when the majority of the time I had no trouble discerning the sonic advantages they wrought.

I think your argument is cost effectiveness, overall. I can understand that. If a subtle improvement isn't worth the big bucks to someone, I'd never argue with it. But it was to me, still is and likely will be in the future.

[markw]

IIRC, the ratio of the cables was about 100:1. With that disparity in prices I would hope/ expect a marked difference, particularly when you describe yourself as "Suffering" with the lesser cables..


I believe I said I suffered not the 3 days I missed the differences but the 8 days I could.Again, since those three days (about 20% of the time if your numbers are correct) you couldn't even tell one from the other, isn't it a little presumptuous to claim that you "suffered" listening to the low priced cables?

It's hyperbole like that that priovides entertainment in this field.

[Pat D]

Yes. While shielding was not the primary reason I purchased them, there is plenty of radiated RF around my house with multiple wireless phones and an 802.11g wireless network.


I presume they are referring to inductive reactance. My cables are of a very low inductance design. I doubt they have ever used a solid core shield with their PA systems.

But, any company that works with Elvira "Mistress of the Dark" is ok by me. :)

rwI presume they were referring to capacitance as that is what the shielding would add to the speaker cables. Here is what Jon Risch says in the post Mike linked:

"Other factors may come into play, as this added shield would not come with out the substantial penalty of added capacitance. The capacitance would not be a problem itself, in terms iof rollong off the highs, but rather, would be a factor in terms of amplifier stability, thwe amp might become' prone to oscillation if there was eenough capacitance present."

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/104167.html

[E-Stat]

I presume they were referring to capacitance as that is what the shielding would add to the speaker cables.
Ok, perhaps I misunderstood.

A quarter century ago, Nelson Pass pointed out that you could achieve low inductance by trading off high capacitance and vice versa. See <a href="http://passlabs.com/downloads/articles/spkrcabl.pdf">Cable paper</a href>

While low inductance is advantageous, many amps (including some of his early designs) oscillated with the high capacitance of those older designs like the Polk. There are a number of cables available today, however, from Nordost, JPS Labs, et al. that achieve low values across all metrics simultaneously along with shielding.

rw

[musicoverall]

Again, since those three days (about 20% of the time if your numbers are correct) you couldn't even tell one from the other, isn't it a little presumptuous to claim that you "suffered" listening to the low priced cables?.

Already addressed in previous post.

As for "marked differences", isn't that a matter of opinion regarding degree? I would call the differences "marked". You obviously would not. Further, high end audio has it's diminishing returns. At certain points, one should expect to pay a premium for a small incremental improvement. At those points, cost effectiveness becomes a singular issue. Finally, I did not pay full retail for the cables as they were purchased from the secondary market. At full retail, even I would have trouble justifying the outlay, marked differences notwithstanding. Hell, I even listen to a fair amount of heavy metal music which is often so poorly recorded that my system is overkill. That doesn't mean I should throw away my system and listen to a boombox.

As for entertainment in this field, nothing entertains me more than those who spend so much time debating that which they believe does not exist. I should add that I do not include you in those numbers because you are by your own admission a "maysayer". Very clever, by the way! You don't seem blinded by science or by audiophiledom. As I was always taught... when discussing matters that aren't absolute, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. Furthermore, I'm always entertained by those who will only change their beliefs after someone else proves for them that their beliefs are invalid.

So there's plenty of entertainment available to both sides of the debate.

[jneutron]

A quarter century ago, Nelson Pass pointed out that you could achieve low inductance by trading off high capacitance and vice versa. See Cable paper (http://passlabs.com/downloads/articles/spkrcabl.pdf)
rwIt surprises me that a quarter of a century ago, he did not derive the simple relationship L and C have, as the equations are well over half a century old.

L times C = 1034 time the relative dielectric coefficient.

L in nH per foot, C in pf per foot.

Halve inductance, double capacitance.

Cheers, John

[markw]

As for "marked differences", isn't that a matter of opinion regarding degree? I would call the differences "marked".Well, here's where we differ. When you say "marked" difference, that implies that it's more than a subtle difference. One that is "marked" enough to differentiate one cable from another all the time. Since, in 20% of the testing, you were unable to tell the difference, I think "marked" is a mis-statement.

I just think that when talking up cables the realities involved should be stressed. In this case you have two cables, one listing for 100 times the cost of another and yet 20% of the time you could not tell them apart. Again, just how "marked" could those differences be?

I wonder what the differences between that cheap cable and some costing only 10 times as much would be? I'd venture they would be even more subtle, wouldn't you?

I think that's something newbies should be aware of before jumping onto the cable bandwagon, don't you?

[musicoverall]

[QUOTE=markw]Well, here's where we differ. When you say "marked" difference, that implies that it's more than a subtle difference. QUOTE]

Ok, I'll just say it's a significant difference - subtle but musically significant. Even more subtle would be likely to be musically significant to someone, as in your 10x example. I can't really say.

As for newbies jumping on the bandwagon, I'd say it's ok to do so if they hear differences that are important enough to them. Better sound is a bandwagon I'm comfortable boarding.