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MusicLG
01-19-2005, 04:18 PM
Just got a Yamaha RX-V 2500 receiver. What are the best speakers in the $2,000-$3,000 range? I know it's a very personal choice, but curious as to where to begin. (Paradigm, BW, Audience, Monitor Audio?) Thanks all.

E-Stat
01-19-2005, 04:21 PM
Just got a Yamaha RX-V 2500 receiver. What are the best speakers in the $2,000-$3,000 range? I know it's a very personal choice, but curious as to where to begin. (Paradigm, BW, Audience, Monitor Audio?) Thanks all.
If space permits, I would encourage hearing some Magneplanars. I was seduced by planar speakers long ago.

rw

drseid
01-19-2005, 04:58 PM
Just got a Yamaha RX-V 2500 receiver. What are the best speakers in the $2,000-$3,000 range? I know it's a very personal choice, but curious as to where to begin. (Paradigm, BW, Audience, Monitor Audio?) Thanks all.

Well, I tend to go for some of the lesser known brands... so it may be hard to find these, but here goes:

My first choice would be Tyler Acoustics 7Us ($3250/pr. on the tyleracoustics.com web site, but Ty always will sell them for about $2850/pr.). These are built to order through Internet sales only. VERY nice sound and build quality. These sound particularly good with acoustic instruments, female vocalists and jazz or blues.

My second choice would be the Opera Audio Consonance Eric-3 floorstanders. These retail for about $1850/pr. I heard these at THE Show in Vegas, and was *quite* impressed indeed. They don't sound as good as the 7Us, but they also offer tremendous bang for the buck. The Eric-3s are more of an all-arounder (master of nothing, but does almost everything very good).

My third choice would be the Legacy Audio Classics. Very good overall floorstander that sells for about 3K nowadays... Not as good bang for the buck as either of the first 2, nor do they offer the resolution of the 7Us... but they do get quite low, and I love the look of the Classics. Great rock speaker (if that is your music of choice).

---Dave

slbenz
01-19-2005, 07:50 PM
Just got a Yamaha RX-V 2500 receiver. What are the best speakers in the $2,000-$3,000 range? I know it's a very personal choice, but curious as to where to begin. (Paradigm, BW, Audience, Monitor Audio?) Thanks all.

I would definitely look into Magnepan. I used to own B&W but now own Magnepan. Very detailed and open in sound. You have to make sure you have enough room behind them to get the very best out of them.

topspeed
01-20-2005, 11:21 AM
Obviously it's the B&W's I own.

No, no, no...What am I thinking?

My Von Schweikerts are much better.....

sorta....

I GOT IT! It has to be RGA's Audio Notes.

Wait, wait...sorry, that's not right either.

The best $2K speakers are definitely Wooch's Paradigms.

No?

Maybe Worf's Ohm Walsh's? Geoffcin's Maggies or Gallo's? How 'bout Kexodusc's EFE's?

Now that I think about it, I have no idea what the best $2K speaker is.



Why don't you tell me?

Lord_Magnepan
01-20-2005, 11:30 AM
Magnepan MG 1.6

if you have the space....

Many Maggie pictures can be found here

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=238671

RGA
01-20-2005, 12:20 PM
Depend on what you want the speakers to do - what kind of system you intend on building and ultimately the sound you like. The best thing is to listen a LOT - it took me four years to find something and I made sure to listen to as many of the touted speakers in Stereophile as I could and to take samples froma breadth of designs from Ribbons, panels stats, stat hybrids, horns and even just weird looking speakers like Cabasse - the one with the big eyeball looking drivers. That is really the best suggestion I can give you and it really is the only suggestion worth giving you because no matter the reviews and forum hype not everyone and not you are going to like em all.

The more you hear the better off you'll be - you don;t want to just by a $2k speaker of one kind of design when all you hear is 4-6 others all of which are pretty much exactly the same. Trouble is to get the auditions - not every place carries a lot of this 'other' stuff. Then some of them don;t make surround sound packages - if that;s what you want a lof of companies get lopped off the list.

MusicLG
01-20-2005, 03:03 PM
Obviously it's the B&W's I own.

No, no, no...What am I thinking?

My Von Schweikerts are much better.....

sorta....

I GOT IT! It has to be RGA's Audio Notes.

Wait, wait...sorry, that's not right either.

The best $2K speakers are definitely Wooch's Paradigms.

No?

Maybe Worf's Ohm Walsh's? Geoffcin's Maggies or Gallo's? How 'bout Kexodusc's EFE's?

Now that I think about it, I have no idea what the best $2K speaker is.



Why don't you tell me?


Thank you for your extraordinarily insightful comments. (I hope the time you spent crafting your response was a worthwhile use of your time.) I would still be interested in the feedback from people that are knowledgeable.

Lord_Magnepan
01-20-2005, 03:36 PM
Seriously, the absolut best bet is to go to www.magnepan.com and try the MMG (550$ a pair) for 60 days. I am 100% sure you will love them. If you dont like them, return them for a full refund. But be warned, once you listen to a Maggie there is no going back. The MMGs will most likely kill any other 2K box in terms of inner detail, soundstage, depth and reproduction of voices.lik

Here is the 2K$ recommend system from Enjoy the music .com

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/1199/donibbles.htm

RGA
01-20-2005, 10:26 PM
Lord Maggie

Just one thing I had my K's for 6 months and I got 100% trade-in on them. I have heard 2 Maggies now - and they have very obvious strengths - I still think it's unwise to buy based solely on recommendations. I do LIKE Maggie in that they let you try em and return them - more companies should do that. And if the MMG sounds better than the SMG then at $500 they're a solid buy - if you have a subwoofer. The big maggie I heard I need more time on before I say anything.

theaudiohobby
01-21-2005, 01:23 AM
http://www.genelec.se/news/images/8000_launch1.jpg
After you have listened to the ANs, B&Ws, Monitor Audios, Paradigms and other passives ;), visit the pro audio shop and listen to the active Genelec 8000 series, hear and see why quite a number of pros are excited about these speakers, the bass is so articulate:D, midrange clarity exceptional:D and the top end openess of the 8030 and 8050 are superb:D. In short the 8050 is a bargain premium speaker, I will happily live with the 8030, similar qualities but less bass, it costs USD1200, the 8050 is the real deal, it has one of the best midrange performances I have heard in a long time, but at USD3500, it is not cheap:(. And they are not bad looking either.:D

topspeed
01-21-2005, 08:12 AM
Thank you for your extraordinarily insightful comments. (I hope the time you spent crafting your response was a worthwhile use of your time.) I would still be interested in the feedback from people that are knowledgeable.
LG, and I'm only telling you this because I care, there are plenty of decaffinated brands out there that are just as tasty as the real thing.

You missed my point entirely, so I'll spell it out for you.

The opinions you get are going to be based on that particular poster's individual tastes, needs, room acoustics, and experience. You'll notice that none of these factors has anything to do with you. Lord Magnepan is going to push Maggies on you all day because, as his moniker so boldly proclaims, he's a fan. RGA, who is being remarkeably reserved, usually crams Audio Note down your throat, but so far has given you the most worthwhile advice.

The bottom line is that if you want to find the best speaker for you, at any price, you are the one that is going to have to do the leg work and find it. Our opinions have absolutely zero value. So get out there and listen, take your time, and enjoy the ride. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Who knows, maybe you'll find some speaker that no one here has encountered and come back to enlighten all of us? It's happened before.

Lord_Magnepan
01-21-2005, 08:56 AM
In other words this board and the entire website is complete garbage and useless :p

kexodusc
01-21-2005, 08:57 AM
MusicLG: There is a mountain of wisdom in Topspeed's original post. If there was one almighty best $2000 speaker, we'd all have the same speakers right now.
I like what I have (I might add mine were the cheapest lol!) but I also liked the Paradigm's I still have that they replaced, the AN J's, some Totem speaker, Focus Audio, B&W, etc, etc...

There's just too much personal and subjective preference involved with speakers to determine what the universal best is...as for what's best for you, well the models listed in this thread are a start...
There's not a single one I've seen listed here that I don't like yet (though I haven't heard the Legacy Audio's).

Usually when someone asks the "what's the best question", a brutal flame war of epic proportions breaks out...that hasn't happened...yet.

Lord_Magnepan
01-21-2005, 09:12 AM
Wanna start one ? ;)

J/K

MusicLG
01-21-2005, 12:57 PM
It all very much makes sense to me and you are all very helpful...including Topspeed, with your explanation of the first posting. I certainly intend on taking as much time as necessary to hear what is available...but I gotta tell you. In a hundred years, I would not have thought about Magnepan...but based on the advice in this thread, I scheduled an audition. It's a function of room configuration, music preference...and the rest is how we're wired. Your comments have been extremely helpful.
LG

Lord_Magnepan
01-21-2005, 01:26 PM
You will not be dissapointed :) If your near Charlotte, come on by !!!

risabet
01-21-2005, 01:35 PM
You will not be dissapointed :) If your near Charlotte, come on by !!!

Do you get a commission on each pr. of Maggies sold.

Lord_Magnepan
01-21-2005, 01:42 PM
Hahah :)

I wish, id be rich and die a happy man. Well every person, every single one i have shown Maggies ended up buying one and sometimes ditching and selling speakers which they owned for years and spend several thousands of dollars on.

Which modell you gonna listen to and what equipment?

thepogue
01-21-2005, 04:18 PM
whatever trips yer trigger make it "used" and steal a set as people upgrade.....


now go get'em!!


Peace, Pogue

Lord_Magnepan
01-21-2005, 05:24 PM
Properbly the best deal period, is a used 1.6 for 1200$......

eisforelectronic
01-21-2005, 07:07 PM
I will cast my usual vote for Totem.

As long as you don't buy Bose, most on the Forum will not think ill of you.

musicoverall
01-21-2005, 07:42 PM
Properbly the best deal period, is a used 1.6 for 1200$......

I owned the 3.6's for quite awhile and then found a good deal on a used pair of 20.1's which I currently own. It took a long time to find a pair that wasn't going for $7-8K. Maggies certainly hold their value! It's nice now that I own them but when I was looking for them, it quite frankly pissed me off! :)

The biggest problem with Maggies is that they spoil you! It's not an easy thing at all to listen to box speakers anymore. But, too, they are hard to dial in. Took me quite awhile but they're singing sweetly as I type!

For what an opinion is worth, Maggie 1.6's are the best bang for the buck... and even new, there will be change coming back from the $2K!

MusicLG
01-21-2005, 07:52 PM
I called Magnepan this afternoon and spoke with a couple of people there. Looks like I'll be listening the the 12's. Got to go one state over, but I'm sure the audition will be worth it. :)

Lord_Magnepan
01-21-2005, 08:26 PM
Trust me it will :)

theaudiohobby
01-22-2005, 03:32 AM
Usually when someone asks the "what's the best question", a brutal flame war of epic proportions breaks out...that hasn't happened...yet.

I was sorely tempted to dip my hat ;) ;) ;) but since my main speakers costs USD7K :( :(it was kind of pointless saying that have reference class off-axis dispersion and impulse response ;) ;) ;), so I had to settle for a darkhorse.

MusicLG There are a variety technologies out there

Traditional Box speakers like AN, B&W, Paradigm etc.
Panels like Magnepan, Martin Logan and Martin Logan
Ribbon Hybrids such Elac, Precide etc.

I will suggest that you listen to the speakers across the technologies because the technologies the differing strengths and weaknesses, for example, the panels tend to the midrange thing very well but have narrower sweet spots and trickier positioning issues, the traditional boxes tend to better do bass and lower midrange dynamics better but rarely match the midrange ability and treble performance of the panels or indeed some hybrids at lower price points. Your choice will ultimately boil down to what compromises you are willing to live with.

thepogue
01-23-2005, 05:54 AM
I'd also add a word of caution...anyone touting a particular brand of speaker as "The Best" (be it value or sounding) is giving you their opinion..... which has some value but is not to be taken as gospel...as we all know different strokes for different folks...so do yourself a favor and listen to as many types and brands as possible. I've put my ear on quite a few and as far as the "stats vs. box" type speakers each has a strength...when positioned correctly I heard Martin Logans sound as magical as I ever heard any music!! The huge down side was that the sweet spot was so narrow that only one person (maybe two at best) at a time could be in that "magic zone"...but with that said I WILL own a set of stats someday. (But will never have them as my only speakers) OTOH boxy type speakers just "kick" some types of music in a way that I've not heard any stats do...I've spent quite a bit of time listing to Linn's upper line, B&W 802's, and the full Revel line (and of course my Paradigm 100's) and as stated I don't think I'd so without a quality box speaker as I enjoy rock too much too fully move to stats...but I'd love to have a set of ML Prodigy's in the mix!!...woohoo...and to be fair I've not had the pleasure of listening to the upper end of Maggies line which I'd love to do at some point...in fact I would make that happen before I threw down the $$ for the Prodigy's....but I digress....bottom line...nobody here (or elsewhere) know what you prefer.........so get out there and make it happen...listen to all you can and don't forget to have fun while doing so!!


Peace out, Pogue



I was sorely tempted to dip my hat ;) ;) ;) but since my main speakers costs USD7K :( :(it was kind of pointless saying that have reference class off-axis dispersion and impulse response ;) ;) ;), so I had to settle for a darkhorse.

MusicLG There are a variety technologies out there

Traditional Box speakers (http:///#) like AN, B&W, Paradigm etc.
Panels like Magnepan, Martin Logan and Martin Logan
Ribbon Hybrids such Elac, Precide etc.
I will suggest that you listen to the speakers across the technologies because the technologies the differing strengths and weaknesses, for example, the panels tend to the midrange thing very well but have narrower sweet spots and trickier positioning issues, the traditional boxes tend to better do bass and lower midrange dynamics better but rarely match the midrange ability and treble performance of the panels or indeed some hybrids at lower price points. Your choice will ultimately boil down to what compromises you are willing to live with.

shokhead
01-23-2005, 06:35 AM
Always a crap shot this "best" or "vs" stuff. What somebody tells your are and what your ears hears will most likly be different,not to mention room setup,shape of room,reciever and all that jazz. Only good way to find best or what will work is to stay with proven brands and a lot of testing with your disks. Like thepogue said, caustion and dont rush it.

drseid
01-23-2005, 10:02 AM
Always a crap shot this "best" or "vs" stuff. Only good way to find best or what will work is to stay with proven brands.


This I will have to respectfully disagree with... While I would agree that using a "proven" brand (such as B&W, for example) is a good place to *start*... I would argue that if you stay only with the "big boys" you may miss out on *a lot* of speakers you may prefer.

The brands I personally liked the most at THE Show and CES were not mainstream brands, for the most part (Von Schweikert being a notable exception)... That is not to say some mainstream brands do not offer superb sound (and may be the brand chosen)... It just is to say that you are missing out on *a lot* of stuff by sticking to "proven brands." I say let your ears decide which speakers "prove" themselves, and are worthy of your money (large company or small).

---Dave

Buzz Roll
01-23-2005, 10:39 AM
There's one "alternative" design not mentioned that I'm always pushing which are the Ohm Walsh series. I've heard all of the above and feel that they are a nice middle ground between stats and "boxes." Huge, open soundstage, very easy to place, big sweet spot and the abilty to hang with heavy music. I really like the sound of Maggies and Vandersteens, but you really have to sit in a very specific spot to hear what they're capable of.

As RGA has mentioned many times, and something that I discovered with Ohm's in home demo, is the A/B test. It's very difficult to run from store to store and properly evaluate sonic differences. With the speakers in the same room, the differences become very obvious.

shokhead
01-23-2005, 11:49 AM
This I will have to respectfully disagree with... While I would agree that using a "proven" brand (such as B&W, for example) is a good place to *start*... I would argue that if you stay only with the "big boys" you may miss out on *a lot* of speakers you may prefer.

The brands I personally liked the most at THE Show and CES were not mainstream brands, for the most part (Von Schweikert being a notable exception)... That is not to say some mainstream brands do not offer superb sound (and may be the brand chosen)... It just is to say that you are missing out on *a lot* of stuff by sticking to "proven brands." I say let your ears decide which speakers "prove" themselves, and are worthy of your money (large company or small).

---Dave
I would say true if you know what your doing and maybe not true if you dont. If i'm getting something and not up on it,i'll stick to the well known brands. If i know what i'm doing,i'll check everything.

drseid
01-23-2005, 01:20 PM
I would say true if you know what your doing and maybe not true if you dont. If i'm getting something and not up on it,i'll stick to the well known brands. If i know what i'm doing,i'll check everything.

I would hope each individual would know what sounds good to *them*. To me, that is all the experience required. :-)

---Dave

dvjorge
01-23-2005, 06:30 PM
I have years visiting this forum almost all days. Nobody will tell you which is the best speaker around $2000. You will get 200 different answers and might be any of them is right for you. Go and listen, we can suggest you, but you have to choose acoording what you like. By the way, I have heard Magnepan many times at my dealer show room and I don't like them for me. Don't allow anybody to push any brand to you.
Good Luck,
Jorge

MusicLG
01-30-2005, 08:20 AM
Thanks for the collective wisdom...it's helpful. I'm going to search...with an open mind (and wallet) and listen and listen and listen and listen and listen and listen to both the well known brands as well as some of the obscure ones, too, including boxes and ribbons. I'll keep ye posted.
MusicLG

bjornb17
01-30-2005, 08:43 AM
Get MTX Monitor series loudspeakers.....

:confused: why are you guys looking at me that way :confused:

risabet
01-30-2005, 07:07 PM
Thanks for the collective wisdom...it's helpful. I'm going to search...with an open mind (and wallet) and listen and listen and listen and listen and listen and listen to both the well known brands as well as some of the obscure ones, too, including boxes and ribbons. I'll keep ye posted.
MusicLG

Try some Martin-Logans, great sound and, IMHO, much better looking than the Maggies.

Lord_Magnepan
01-31-2005, 07:57 AM
A very good speaker for (Giant slayer) is this one http://www.vmpseurope.com/pics/626rpb.jpg



I think its around 1300$ its the VMPS QSO 626R

MusicLG
01-31-2005, 06:00 PM
Hey Lord M...I thought you were a die hard, Maggie man only...what gives?

bargainseeker
01-31-2005, 06:14 PM
I suggest that you include Amphion (http://www.amphion.fi/) on your audition list.

theaudiohobby
02-01-2005, 01:39 AM
I suggest that you include Amphion (http://www.amphion.fi/) on your audition list.

If you like the Amphions, then you really should also listen to the Genelec (http://www.genelec.com/products/bi_amp.php), the superior cabinet construction and optimal amplifier coupling of the Genelec 8000 series make a hugh difference.

Lord_Magnepan
02-01-2005, 04:58 AM
Hey Lord M...I thought you were a die hard, Maggie man only...what gives? Well i sold the MG 3.6R and i am gonna order this one next. I guess i never stop learning. But the 3.6R will kill most box speakers below 10K in quite a bit of areas. But they need a large room.

PS: I am gonna make a new username too, since i cant get that changed.

http://www.vmpseurope.com/pics/rm30a.jpg

Florian
02-01-2005, 05:05 AM
Ok so here is my new name and account plus equipment.

theaudiohobby
02-01-2005, 05:19 AM
Well i sold the MG 3.6R and i am gonna order this one next. I guess i never stop learning. But the 3.6R will kill most box speakers below 10K in quite a bit of areas. But they need a large room.

The morale of the story, fanatical attachment to components is unreasonable. The maggie will excel in its areas of strength and fall down in its areas of weakness, there will always be trade offs, it is up to individuals to choose what suits best.

Florian
02-01-2005, 05:21 AM
Thats true, but eventually i had to go out and spend 2000$ more. For th price the MMGs and the MMGW (299 a pair) is a killer. I dont know of a box that can beat that. But i move on.

theaudiohobby
02-01-2005, 05:45 AM
Pas problemo, at least you were bold enough to come to terms with your dilemna i.e. finding a pair of speakers that work for you in your current room. In recent times, IMO the Genelec 8050 has redefined what is possible from a medium seized bookshelf at the USD3.5K mark, I suppose it is the combination of an optimised inert box, optimal amplification and an active crossover that cause it to eclipse the performance of the many of its domestic brethren at a price that is almost embarassing. Of course, it is not for everyone, for me however I love it's midrange presence and tonal integrity.

Florian
02-01-2005, 05:46 AM
I would definetly try the DEQ works wonders with speakers in weird rooms.

theaudiohobby
02-01-2005, 05:47 AM
You should, it will make your VMPS sound even better.

RGA
02-01-2005, 01:41 PM
Genelec seems interesting in that they are geared to home theater. All of their speakers seem to be home theater focussed. The sheets look good for a small monitor speaker. I gather you prefer the 2-3db rise in the 1khz-2khz band and the added emphasis in the high treble from around 10khz which the Genelecs possess. This is perhaps a reason why we don't like generally the same speakers because I would refer a speaker to have a slight frequency dip in both of those regions. The harmonic distortion is a little high for my liking here at 2% at only 85db which will cause an addittive effect to the 1-2khz band.

I will look for em at the CES next year because I like the fact they offer much sound from a small box and are obviously designed for home theater

I would suggest looking at PMC which seems a lot cheaper and offers a deeper bass response It is used in recording studios world wide. Still a bit zippy in the highs and not all day listenable but very good measured results geenrally.

I'm shocked Lord Magnepan changed from Maggie - My Soundhounds dealer had the big 20.(something) flagship and he changed 4-5 years ago.

It's hard to find something you're going to like long term - many people seem to change their brand with every new audition. Boredom sets in and onto the next speaker amp or what have you. I used to do that and have grown weary of this is best or that...You find what you like at the end of the day - not everyone hears it the same way is a boring conclusion but one which I'm growing in to.

Good luck with the new speakers - Hope to see you post a review as to what you think the new ones do better than the 3.6.

Buzz Roll
02-01-2005, 02:31 PM
To describe Genelec as a H/T speakers is also how I hear them. Despite their pro associations, Genelecs are from neutral and/or accurate. The brightness RGA describes has left me with less than stellar mixes when using these speakers. Extremely overpriced.

The Adam booth happened to be right across from Genelec's at NAMM last week so I was able to generally compare the two - the Adams were clearly a better sounding monitor. And yes, PMC are among the best, particularly the AML1.

The VMPS floorstanders remind me of the Red Rose Music (Levinson) Classic Ribbon Speaker. If they sound anything like them, I understand your choice. I too like Maggies, but I found the Levinson presentation more to my liking.

RGA
02-01-2005, 03:13 PM
To describe Genelec as a H/T speakers is also how I hear them. Despite their pro associations, Genelecs are from neutral and/or accurate. The brightness RGA describes has left me with less than stellar mixes when using these speakers. Extremely overpriced.

The Adam booth happened to be right across from Genelec's at NAMM last week so I was able to generally compare the two - the Adams were clearly a better sounding monitor. And yes, PMC are among the best, particularly the AML1.

The VMPS floorstanders remind me of the Red Rose Music (Levinson) Classic Ribbon Speaker. If they sound anything like them, I understand your choice. I too like Maggies, but I found the Levinson presentation more to my liking.

I am not making any sonic judgment about the genelec since I have not heard them - and there is more to a speaker that flat frequency response. A lot of pro monitors simply don't cut it for home audio - they are designed for a different purpose. The silly thing is plenty of speakers are used in studios - studio owners have a budget just like everyone else - and it is a fallacy to think a studio speaker is any better than a home speaker. PMC and Bryston haves successfully made the transition from studio to home. I could spend the same money on a PMC/Bryston system - that I will spend on an Audio Note speaker/amp set up.

There is no question which one I prefer. The PMCs are very durable for banging around and work well near field - but I'd grow a bit weary of them all day. The amps are really no better than a lot of cheaper SS amps but you get incredible customer support and bulletproof reliability --- two things critical in a studio where downtime is unnacceptable.

And the other huge thing about studio speakers is that they have a logistic need to be small and easy position firendly. The treble is a tricky thing and if it's going to go up or down 2db in the long run for musical enjoyment I prefer that it to be down 2db because it meshes well with our hearing. That added zing is prominant at 1khz is something I'm not a fan of. UHF wrote a bot about the frequency dip being desirable for home listening a few years back as well.

Home theater speakers are out for a different purpose in my view - for a big action picture(and this is how they sell H/T to people) I think it would be desirable to have a pronounced treble. The sell H/T based of Saving Private Ryan and Star Wars kind of movies. The added zing helps those movies stand out and wow you.

I'm gonna go to CES next year and I'll be looking up a lot of the newer expensive Home theater speakers - maybe genelec if people who I trust tell me they're worth my time.

Buzz Roll
02-01-2005, 03:32 PM
I was pretty harsh on the Genelecs and don't mean to put words in your mouth, RGA, but you guessed right. I do feel they would be good home theatre speakers.

I'm noticing the gap between home and pro listening to close a bit. A lot less engineers are using NS-10s and moving towards speakers like Green Mountain Audio Europas. A non-fatiguing speaker that happens to retain a certain level of "accuracy". The Dynaudio Air system that I've used recently also has a pretty smooth yet informative sound to it. They are up there with the PMCs performance-wise, but I could live with the Dyns at home too.

topspeed
02-01-2005, 03:34 PM
Aren't Genelecs in fact known more for the Pro applications than anything else? Like RGA mentions, this really doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, I'm just trying to get his straight. All of the Genelec apps I've seen have been using their active speakers as pro monitors for my musician friends. I've actually never seen them used in a domestic setting, which is not to say they wouldn't excel in such.

Florian
02-01-2005, 04:05 PM
Well what can i say, the Maggies are exeptional and i would never ever have thought of selling them. But i have rearanged them over 3 weeks and just could not get the right sound from them. I also got reminded of the typical sound traits and new it was time for me to go on. I looked at Eminent Tech, NewForms and finally settled with the VMPS. I think at hart i am more of a "exotic" weird "2 channel fanatic". :confused:

RGA
02-01-2005, 07:24 PM
Well what can i say, the Maggies are exeptional and i would never ever have thought of selling them. But i have rearanged them over 3 weeks and just could not get the right sound from them. I also got reminded of the typical sound traits and new it was time for me to go on. I looked at Eminent Tech, NewForms and finally settled with the VMPS. I think at hart i am more of a "exotic" weird "2 channel fanatic". :confused:

You have nothing to be ashamed of - Maggies have huge followings and I would love t hear the big ones for an extended period. One of the sales people at Soundhounds had the big Maggies and they elected as a dealer not to carry Magnepan because they can;t get them to sound right. Paul said they were frustrating because at first you get a real kind of sound a holographic 3d sense but getting it to work in a room (which is a box) is exceedingly difficult in his view. Soundhounds dropped the popular Martin Logan because they too are simply a pain in the ass to set-up.

Really I think we're all overly anal - Just find something that doesn't irritate and be done with it. I won't see another upgrade on the speaker front for 20+ years I hope ---- unless I win the big old lottery.

The whole idea of pro versus home speakers is ludicrous and has more to do with positioning and durability than anything else. The PMC TB1 is used in a recording studios and had a a solid black boring looking box - slap on a nice wood colour and boom it's a home speaker, but it's only good in the near field - putting it in a normal medium sized living space and it sounds very thin and lacks weight and dynamics. In a small room 10X11 kind of thing and it sounded quite excellent with jaw dropping tight bass.

At the end of the day I like the PMC very much have often recommended it and its bigger brother the TB2 --- but I'd rather listen to the AN K and despite the Reference 3a MM de Capo's rather large frequency dip it is more listenable long term.

Buzz Roll
02-01-2005, 08:53 PM
Westlake Audio does just as mentioned above, put some veneer on some of their pro monitors and it's comsumer-ready. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, because their monitors are quite good. For the most part, if you put veneer on 99% of the "studio monitors" out there and put them in my home, I'd be pretty unhappy with the sound. Take those same monitors and throw them in a studio - I'd be pretty unhappy with the sound. Put a pair of A/N's or GMA's in a recording studio, and I'll bet most engineers out there will give you a great mix with a whole lot less guess-work.

RGA
02-01-2005, 09:21 PM
Buzz Roll - I would love to hear GMA because Noel at Skylan liked them a lot. His stands are excellent cheaper options for AN speakers too. Audio Note also time aligns their speakers (not advertised). AN is also used in recording studios which again they don't advertise. Indeed, why advertise it? That tells you zilch about whether you're going to LIKE the speaker in the real world - and for me that's the only thing I care about. The graphs and the technobabble mean nothing if it sounds bad.

Indeed, advertising that a speaker is used in a recording studio can have a psychological adverse effect especially if the recordings are not good - the speaker could get blamed. Star Wars DVD release for instance.

astravitz
02-01-2005, 10:00 PM
If you are looking for a class "A" audiophile speaker, you need to do your homework and check out the Triangle Speakers line. They are time and time chosen as the top speakers for the money. Either the Antals or Celius are amazing speakers. The Titus are also considered very high end speakers. (http://www.triangle-fr.com/uk/index.php)

The build quality, parts and performance of the Triangle Celius blows away any speaker mentioned on this board so far. You also might want to consider purchasing a used "Audio Physic" speaker on Audiogon. The Audio Physic speakers are produced in Germany and tend to sound amazing and have tremendous quality.

Both of these brands are much more focued on Musical reproduction. If you're more interested in Home Theatre, you can purchase a complete 5.1 set of PSB Speakers for about the same money (I only recommend the 5 1/4" woofers - I'm not a fan of the 6 1/2" woofer).

I've heard most of the high end speakers out there and Triangle & Audio Physic have the best sound for the money.

Buzz Roll
02-01-2005, 10:06 PM
Aha - ANs ARE used in recording studios - makes sense to me. A lot of people in the biz are getting hip to hi end sound. A few years ago, Tony Levin got into the high end thing and he says that his friends are always trying to come over to his house to check their mixes. Rick Rubin does the same thing with his uber-rig.

Paradigm STUDIO series? - I'm not really sure where they're going with that one...

I agree with the advertising thing, that's why I like the Ohms so much. They really just want you to hear them in your home, against your current speakers - they send them right to you. Most of their advertising is word of mouth.

dba
02-01-2005, 10:26 PM
I have used PMC TB2 and the Audio Physic Spark,plus some B&W CDM1se,and my new set,Von Schweikert VR-1,blew them all away

if you discount these speakers you are missing a real treat

RGA
02-01-2005, 11:03 PM
Aha - ANs ARE used in recording studios - makes sense to me. A lot of people in the biz are getting hip to hi end sound. A few years ago, Tony Levin got into the high end thing and he says that his friends are always trying to come over to his house to check their mixes. Rick Rubin does the same thing with his uber-rig.

Paradigm STUDIO series? - I'm not really sure where they're going with that one...

I agree with the advertising thing, that's why I like the Ohms so much. They really just want you to hear them in your home, against your current speakers - they send them right to you. Most of their advertising is word of mouth.

The other thing is that when a designer actually is an avid music lover and has a huge live listening reference base as well as a massive personal music collection it greatly helps you know what the heck should be coming out of a music reproduction system. It's one thing to engineer a paint by numbers speaker from a computer system - it's another to use the computers and math and then listen and listen and listen and re-work it. Peter Q of Audio Note has a personal collection of albums in excess now of 70,000 albums - he has heard all of the major designs for the last 30+ years and was a dealer for a long time. Experience counts here as well.

I asked him whyhe doesn't advertise and never advertised the technical aspects of his speakers - and there is much there in a deceptive package, and why not tell people about the studios using his speakers etc. At the end of the day you either like what you hear or you don't and that is what counts - word of mouth advertising is free and that's the best advertising for companies like Audio Note... and it sounds the same for Ohm. Peter doesn't want a huge company because it becomes harder to manage. They have 6 month waiting lists on some gear as it is. If he wanted a big company that would be easy.

I want the people building and designing loudspeakers to actually listen - not just hand it over to an engineering department of 20 people and a final decision made by an accounting officer to pull the last minute cheap outs. I hae heard so many of the big guys and they are generally embarrassed by the small fries.

Ie, Ferrari and Bentley vs Ford and GM ---- whatever.

drseid
02-02-2005, 03:29 AM
If you are looking for a class "A" audiophile speaker, you need to do your homework and check out the Triangle Speakers line. They are time and time chosen as the top speakers for the money.

The build quality, parts and performance of the Triangle Celius blows away any speaker mentioned on this board so far.

I've heard most of the high end speakers out there and Triangle & Audio Physic have the best sound for the money.

By whom, you? No offense to Triangle, as I actually like their speakers a lot, but I think your statement is rather bold indeed.

You certainly are entitled to feel the way you do, but I think you lose some credibility with statements like "blows away any speaker on this board" and "I have heard most high-end speakers out there."

Enjoy your Triangles, but I think I will "suffer" with my Tylers, as I am sure other posters will have to "make do" with their choices as well. ;-)

Regards,

---Dave

theaudiohobby
02-02-2005, 04:31 AM
Here we are discussing a line of speakers with comprehensive published measurements and specs against products such as the GMA, Audio Note and PMC that have no published measurements anywhere, none of them publish any detailed measurements on their sites or in their promotional brochures. If all these companies are so proud of their products accuracy as you guys suggest, why no published measurements or full specifications of their speakers. Neither PMC, GMA nor Audio Note provide any distortion, frequency response, dispersion specifications or measurements, so how did we arrive at comments critiquing the Genelec's published distortion, frequency response (both inferences were wrong by the way) and accuracy, on what basis, against which products.

Buzz Roll, the PMC AML1 costs USD5.2K, yet you referred to the Genelec at USD3.5K as overpriced, reading your old posts I think you know very little about both products. Now RGA you say that the PMC goes deeper, the AML1 (PMC's top nearfield monitor) is rated down to 33Hz with no dB deviation and no indication as to whether it is a freefield measurement or not, so how did you come to conclude that it goes deeper than the Genelec 8050?

I am all for critiqueing products, but please do so intelligently and credibly with the facts to back up your assertions.

Florian
02-02-2005, 05:19 AM
Well, i dont really wanna comment to much on specs. Most companys specs are nowhere near what they actually have. Most great companys like NewForm, Eminent Tech and VMPS actually tell you what sorta response you get in your room once you give them the measurments. I do like specs, but have learned not to pay much attention to it anymore.

As far as a recommendation goes, i highly recommend the VMPS 626R.

theaudiohobby
02-02-2005, 05:30 AM
Most companys specs are nowhere near what they actually have. Most great companys like NewForm, Eminent Tech and VMPS actually tell you what sorta response you get in your room once you give them the measurments. I do like specs, but have learned not to pay much attention to it anymore. .

In this case though, both BuzzRoll and RGA are pontificating over speakers they have not heard, all their comments are based on the spec and published measurements, will Genelec install speakers in a major studio and not provide the studio the in-room response measurements? And as I said earlier, RGA comments on the frequency response and distortion do not concur with the either the stated specs or measurements. It is a bit rich to claim that a speaker that has no published measurement or detailed specs is more accurate or goes deeper than one that does, especially when you have not heard either of them.

Florian
02-02-2005, 05:39 AM
While that is certainly true, there are many more problems which you guys face. Every room has a different volume, shape, dimension and equipment. Some speakers can be measured accuratly in a a-chamber and others cant. Many speakers can go low, but have huge drop off's after a certain sound preassure. Personally id stay aways from big marketing companys. So far the best i have had comes from small companys.

One should take specs into consideration but take them with a grain of salt because those measurments will never happen in your room. Now buying a regular priced bookshelf such as a Audio Note, B&W, Klipsch, DefTech, NewForm, VMPS etc... is a good choice and i would just spend 400$ on a digital room equalizer and some room treatments, since they are very important and almost always overlooked.

-Florian

Florian
02-02-2005, 06:12 AM
What are we talking about ? Is he looking for a good Studio speaker, or a good speaker he listen to music with while sitting on a couch in a "non-otimal" room .

theaudiohobby
02-02-2005, 06:15 AM
One should take specs into consideration but take them with a grain of salt because those measurments will never happen in your room

There is software available that calculates your in-room response once you enter the anechoic response, room dimensions and other pertinent variables, when you supply your room dimensions to VMPS , that is what they do, calculating the in-room response of a pair of speakers is not a biggie by any means

All the companies that you have mentioned only supply domestic speakers and some of those speakers have serious limitations that preclude their use in professional studio environment and secondly many of them are reticent to provide measurements of the speaker for a variety of reasons. Genelec is a studio monitoring equipment manufacturer i.e. the speakers are tools, i..e. the measurements are necessary for optimal positioning and use, they even state maximum recomended listening distance for each speaker. Mackie, Alesis, Genelec and the professional studio monitor manufacturers have nothing to gain but a lot to lose by publishing false specs and measurements.

A quality speaker is a quality speaker irrespective of the size of the company that built it, I have heard speakers from small companies that sound good and as well those that sound bad, bad products are not exclusive preserve of large companies and neither are good products the exclusive preserve of small companies.

theaudiohobby
02-02-2005, 06:25 AM
What are we talking about ? Is he looking for a good Studio speaker, or a good speaker he listen to music with while sitting on a couch in a "non-otimal" room .

You are the one that went off on a tangent by suggesting that the supplied measurements and specs are not reliable, however as I have pointed out, you can derive the in-room response measurements from the anechoic response, a good speaker is a good speaker, pure and simple. In this particular case, Genelec gives you more data to enable you achieve optimal sound in your listening environment than any of the companies you have mentioned.

Buzz Roll
02-02-2005, 06:34 AM
Re-read my posts again. I have in fact heard all of the speakers that I've commented on - especially the Genelecs. It was in a professional environment where they seriously let me down - specs or no specs.

Florian
02-02-2005, 06:34 AM
I am simply suggesting a "best speaker for 2K" that in my opinion is the most musical. I dont want to argue and i dont care about Pro audio anyways.

Buzz Roll
02-02-2005, 06:42 AM
Florian, let us know when you have the new speakers, I'd like to hear your review.

theaudiohobby
02-02-2005, 06:45 AM
I am simply suggesting a "best speaker for 2K" that in my opinion is the most musical. I dont want to argue and i dont care about Pro audio anyways.

Then next time, do not stir the pot.

Florian
02-02-2005, 06:45 AM
I sure will. I will also use Audioquest NRG-2 Powercables and AudioQuest SLATE speaker cables Biwired. And Wireworld Solsitce between the Jolida the AA and the Krell.

Florian
02-02-2005, 06:46 AM
Then next time, do not stir the pot.

Man my british buddys are all chillers. You seem very agressive and hyped up. Chill out !! I did not mean to stir anything.

theaudiohobby
02-02-2005, 07:02 AM
I am an analyst by profession, so I hate unconsidered comments, it wastes time and it wastes money, you casually suggested that Genelec measurements and specifications are unreliable and that from a position of ignorance.oh well..I am a nice bloke but I hate throw away comments. oh by the way, I love the Rhineland

Siper2
02-02-2005, 07:13 AM
I'm a big fan of Boston Acoustics, so I say give their VR-M series a shot. :)

www.bostonacoustics.com

Florian
02-02-2005, 07:14 AM
I never meant to say that Genelecs measurments are false. I dont even know the speaker. Next time i word it better. Anyways, i have a couple of buddys in england which are a small rock band and they play in local pubs :p :p :p

theaudiohobby
02-02-2005, 07:20 AM
That's great, where do they live, I love good rock music :D :D :D, saying that it seems that the German rocks bands are doing real good these days. :D :D

theaudiohobby
02-02-2005, 07:34 AM
Re-read my posts again. I have in fact heard all of the speakers that I've commented on - especially the Genelecs. It was in a professional environment where they seriously let me down - specs or no specs.Your posts were vague, no mention of any specfic genelec model, then you say the PMC AML1 is a similarly priced competitor, when infact it costs almost USD2K more, then you throw the NS-10 into the frame, talking about the AML1 and 8050 and the NS-10 in the same breath, what do you expect me to think?

Florian
02-02-2005, 07:36 AM
That's great, where do they live, I love good rock music :D :D :D, saying that it seems that the German rocks bands are doing real good these days. :D :D


Not listening to german rock bands i wouldnt know :-) I just hate listening to music in my own language. Sorry england and america ;) j/k

I gotta ask him again, the name is ****ed up and the website even more. Ill ask tough/

theaudiohobby
02-02-2005, 07:49 AM
Not listening to german rock bands i wouldnt know :-) I just hate listening to music in my own language. so funny, :D :D :D

astravitz
02-02-2005, 08:27 AM
Yes, looking back at my posting my statement was very bold regarding the Triangle Celius or Antal speakers. However, the thread here is for the Best Speaker for around $2,000- Well according to Stereophile and many other industry experts the Celius is the only full range class A speaker for around $2,000. Although, I recall reading an article in a recent audio publication (I beleive it was Stereophile), that Triangle has now redesigned it's speakers slightly and upgraded some of the components (therefore the price will also be increasing). However, I'm sure some dealers are still selling the Celius 202's.

My opinion was based on Attending the Home Theatre show at the New York Hilton for two years in a row. I listened to speakers ranging from a few hundred dollars to towers of speakers for a few thousand dollars. In the end the room I ended up comming back to along with many others was the Triangle Rooms. How could such a reasonably priced speaker produce such perfect sound. The answer lies in the engineering and listening test.

Triangle started out as a supplier of high end audio components and then started producing its own products. Most Speaker manufactures do not produce thier own components from inception. Bottom line is that in the price range of this thread, the Triangle speaker is the only Class A Full Range Speaker. Also, yes my ear and preference is generally towards classical music, jazz and clearly defined midrange. All of which the Triangle natural paper woofers do an exceptional job at. I agree with thier philosophy of using natural materials to produce a more natural sound. At my office at work I listen to a little Tivoli Audio radio and couldn't be happier.

Yes, in the end the individual must love what they purchase, especially at a $2,000 price tag. I would be curious what MusicLG thinks of the Triangles versus the others if he has the opportunity to audition them.

Buzz Roll
02-02-2005, 08:51 AM
audiohobby, read my posts carefully. I know I don't include specs in my descriptions,
not every idea is to be presented in a grid. The best musicians that I studied with always taught in such a way. Not scribbling down notation, but rather explaining in way which caused me to listen and think about what they were saying. Maybe I'm unclear at times, I can always restate.

Also I never said that the PMC's that I heard were a similarly priced competitor. This isn't a What Hifi? supertest - I was just recalling some "studio monitors" that I could actually trust listening to. I never said that they were a better bargain than anything else, I was just adding to RGA's opinon of PMC.

theaudiohobby
02-02-2005, 09:54 AM
Buzz Roll,

In your post you refer to the Genelec as overpriced, now Genelec has over 15 different models whilst further down you praise the PMC AML1 as being a very good monitor, it had be at USD5.2K, I happen to think that your comments refer to the 1000 series, hence your comments about it being bright and the reason you did not volunteer the models you used for your mixing session. The PMC AML1 (http://www.proaudioreview.com/par/june02/PMC_AML-1.shtml) plays in different league with the Genelec S30D (http://www.proaudioreview.com/par/june01/GENELEC-S30D-web.shtml), as both cost in excess of USD5K and are widely praised, comparing the Genelec 1029A/1030A to the PMC AML1 is like comparing a Kef Q1 to a B&W 805S and saying the B&W is better, of course it will be. Secondly, when you mention fatiguing sound of the 8000 series, it suggests that you have not heard them, these speakers have been out for less than 8 months, when did you get to listen to the 4 models in the series or better still use them in your mixing session?

Buzz Roll
02-02-2005, 09:55 AM
ok,to be fair, I'll have to think back to the model. I do know that I've used the 1029A with a sub in my edit room (and in a few others), and I'll have to think of the pair that I used to mix with in another facility. This was about two years ago and the latter pair were definitely higher up in the range (I think they were around US$4-5K) they actually sounded ok.

I'm sure the newer range is an improvement. I just heard them last week at the NAMM show which is not an optimal listening environment by any means, but the Adams that I heard next door were also subject to the same setting and I preferred their sound. In all honesty I did give the Adams more of my time because I had heard about them, but never heard them for myself. I sort of wrote-off the Genelecs because I wasn't really expecting to like them anyway so I could have a). spent more time with them, and b). listened with some material that I was more familiar with.

When I get some time, I'll give the newer line a closer listen, I'll also fish around and see if there is a step response graph on them too. If there's one measurement that I like to pull out of my hat, it's that one.

RGA
02-02-2005, 10:29 AM
Yes, looking back at my posting my statement was very bold regarding the Triangle Celius or Antal speakers. However, the thread here is for the Best Speaker for around $2,000- Well according to Stereophile and many other industry experts the Celius is the only full range class A speaker for around $2,000. Although, I recall reading an article in a recent audio publication (I beleive it was Stereophile), that Triangle has now redesigned it's speakers slightly and upgraded some of the components (therefore the price will also be increasing). However, I'm sure some dealers are still selling the Celius 202's.

My opinion was based on Attending the Home Theatre show at the New York Hilton for two years in a row. I listened to speakers ranging from a few hundred dollars to towers of speakers for a few thousand dollars. In the end the room I ended up comming back to along with many others was the Triangle Rooms. How could such a reasonably priced speaker produce such perfect sound. The answer lies in the engineering and listening test.

Triangle started out as a supplier of high end audio components and then started producing its own products. Most Speaker manufactures do not produce thier own components from inception. Bottom line is that in the price range of this thread, the Triangle speaker is the only Class A Full Range Speaker. Also, yes my ear and preference is generally towards classical music, jazz and clearly defined midrange. All of which the Triangle natural paper woofers do an exceptional job at. I agree with thier philosophy of using natural materials to produce a more natural sound. At my office at work I listen to a little Tivoli Audio radio and couldn't be happier.

Yes, in the end the individual must love what they purchase, especially at a $2,000 price tag. I would be curious what MusicLG thinks of the Triangles versus the others if he has the opportunity to audition them.

I would not be trusting solely in Stereophile first of all - a lot of what they recommend is IMO pretty lousy - Stereophile does not even listen to a significant portion of quality gear - so being a class a OR a class B doesn't say much unitl you actually know what they've auditioned. They were recommending integrated amplifiers under 2k for 20+ years and NEVER heard the longest running amplifier in history - the Sugden a21a. They finally hear the thing - don't even give it a full report - I pressed the reviewer and he said it's the best sounding sub 2k integrated. But all those years they were giving class B recommendations to Arcam and the like (which I bought). The Sugden A21a kills it and the new one Stereophile is likely recommending. I bet Sugden isn;t even on their listing hmm. They will have an excuse that there are not enough dealers blah blah blah. But then it's not about the best it's about the best that is widely available and I don;t have a problem with that if they would say it.

And the Brits have their take on the Celius 202 as well - they often listen in blind listening panels as well http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=2190

theaudiohobby
02-02-2005, 10:38 AM
Thanks Buzz Roll, fair enough, I was not expecting much of the Genelecs 8000 series myself, I went to listen to the Blue Sky and the Wharfedales, and neither was good sounding, so out of curiosity I fired up the Genelecs 8030 since I needed a small active monitor and I was mightily impressed and that for only GBP600, I have since listened to the whole series extensively and for the price I am very impressed, the 8040 is voiced differently from the 8030 and 8050. I noticed that you mentioned the step response measurement, I have not seen the step response, but I think it will be very similar to that of the Argon Helium 2 (another finish domestic speaker manufacturer), the rise of the woofer response coincides with rise of the tweeter because of the recessed tweeter, however it is unlikely to be disturbed by the helium's box resonances since the aluminium cast shell is fairly inert.
http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/Helfig7.jpg

RGA
02-02-2005, 10:47 AM
Here we are discussing a line of speakers with comprehensive published measurements and specs against products such as the GMA, Audio Note and PMC that have no published measurements anywhere, none of them publish any detailed measurements on their sites or in their promotional brochures. If all these companies are so proud of their products accuracy as you guys suggest, why no published measurements or full specifications of their speakers. Neither PMC, GMA nor Audio Note provide any distortion, frequency response, dispersion specifications or measurements, so how did we arrive at comments critiquing the Genelec's published distortion, frequency response (both inferences were wrong by the way) and accuracy, on what basis, against which products.

Buzz Roll, the PMC AML1 costs USD5.2K, yet you referred to the Genelec at USD3.5K as overpriced, reading your old posts I think you know very little about both products. Now RGA you say that the PMC goes deeper, the AML1 (PMC's top nearfield monitor) is rated down to 33Hz with no dB deviation and no indication as to whether it is a freefield measurement or not, so how did you come to conclude that it goes deeper than the Genelec 8050?

I am all for critiqueing products, but please do so intelligently and credibly with the facts to back up your assertions.

Well that didn't stop you from raving all about the ELACs - I thought Ribbons were the best thing since sliced bread - ohh but it's been 3 months so now it's Genelec - lets wait to see what is best in May. Audiofile awarded the AN E 5 stars and produced measurementt and a graph that I have made in Excel so that one can actually see what is going on...and even then looking at the graph alone indicates some things not everything. Peter isn't going to use a set of measurements he doesn;t believe is wholly valid or descriptive in the first place. But the E measures +/-3db from 27hz to 20khz and is better than that 30 degrees off axis. The plus 3db was noted in Hi-fi choice in the vocal band and above the vocal band is I agree with Paul Messnger about as good as loudspeakers get" And the distortion measurements are stated by hi-fi choice.

PMC has been measured - look for them.

I am not wrong at all about the genelec - it has the measured response on the site. That is a big reason NOT to post measurements for your speakers IMO because you get people who will see the dips and valleys and or in this case spikes and won't actually give them a chance in an audition. (You imply they're better than everyhting else for the money - I see no reason to believe you since most of the speakers you like are IMO atrocious but you are just a review follower - if it gets good reviews and they company has a high falootin techno babble TAH loves it until next week when a new technobabble speaker comes out and now that's the greatest and ELAC is never mentioned again -- The brightness and long throw woofer must have finally annoyed you eh?)

The Reference 3a MM De Capo is a nice sounding speaker --- PATD has ruled out even listening based off the graph - and yet in a real actual room they sound very engaging. Which is not to say everyone is going to love them - but in the real world they sound very good.

There is more to a speaker than what Harman International claims to be a good speaker.

astravitz
02-02-2005, 02:11 PM
I would not be trusting solely in Stereophile first of all - a lot of what they recommend is IMO pretty lousy - Stereophile does not even listen to a significant portion of quality gear - so being a class a OR a class B doesn't say much unitl you actually know what they've auditioned. They were recommending integrated amplifiers under 2k for 20+ years and NEVER heard the longest running amplifier in history - the Sugden a21a. They finally hear the thing - don't even give it a full report - I pressed the reviewer and he said it's the best sounding sub 2k integrated. But all those years they were giving class B recommendations to Arcam and the like (which I bought). The Sugden A21a kills it and the new one Stereophile is likely recommending. I bet Sugden isn;t even on their listing hmm. They will have an excuse that there are not enough dealers blah blah blah. But then it's not about the best it's about the best that is widely available and I don;t have a problem with that if they would say it.

And the Brits have their take on the Celius 202 as well - they often listen in blind listening panels as well http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=2190

I can see your point as far as Stereophile not reviewing every decent product out there. It does seem that manufactures that purchase advertising space tend to get reviewed more frequently, however; I'm not sure of the British HIFi source being any better.

I looked at the HiFi Choice Site and don't give much credence to a British reveiw of French Speakers. Especially one that gave the Monitor Audio S1's a perfect 5 out of 5. IMHO every monitor audio speaker sounds like someone clashing cymbils together. They also rated the B & W 303 & 309's a perfect score. Hummm, I'll take the Triangle's over any Monitor Audio speaker.

MusicLG
02-02-2005, 05:43 PM
Hey, astravitz...thanks. I'll certainly put Triangles on the audition list and let you know what I think. RGA...AN, too.
MusicLG

Arc45
02-02-2005, 07:21 PM
For around $1400 you can get a set of Vandersteen 2Ce's. If you can i would audition them. I recently upgraded to ESL's Martin Logan's..

Both of these speaker choices set up well with my system, but it is all in your own ear.

Audition...audition. audition.

RGA
02-02-2005, 09:40 PM
I can see your point as far as Stereophile not reviewing every decent product out there. It does seem that manufactures that purchase advertising space tend to get reviewed more frequently, however; I'm not sure of the British HIFi source being any better.

I looked at the HiFi Choice Site and don't give much credence to a British reveiw of French Speakers. Especially one that gave the Monitor Audio S1's a perfect 5 out of 5. IMHO every monitor audio speaker sounds like someone clashing cymbils together. They also rated the B & W 303 & 309's a perfect score. Hummm, I'll take the Triangle's over any Monitor Audio speaker.

Yes they are not saying that the 303 is better than the Triangle - they are reviewing speakers at respective price points. The 302 was IMO the best speaker for the money and for the money it deserved 5 stars.

They then review speakers in the 1-2k range and review it. I don't agree with them all the time either - but they review Audio Note and AN doesn;t advertise at all and never has. Their dealers in the US got together and chipped in some money to put ONE advert in a magazine - but AN never has - they produce no literature no brochures. None of that is necessary - what is necessary is to listen to them against the other guys' speaker in the same room.

I have been in this game listening for years and years - I know which I think has it right - and it is now up to the rest to show me they compete.

The biggest issue not addressed in the industry is system synergy - AN products are idealaly designed for each other - and while they get good reviews when separated ---to me when it's together it's something else - very few dealers out there can afford to carry Audio Note and even fewer of those have the bucks to carry enough of the products to show people what can be attained. Soundhounds because of their size has been able to demonstrate a wide wide selection of Audio Note products to demonstrate what going from one level of a speaker amp or cd player to another level can do. They can also blow the SET myth to the four winds - and even with tough to drive speakers have impressed reviewers. Soundhounds has managed to make Audio Note the biggest selling product line they carry on the back of zero hard sell, zero advertising - just turnin the music on and letting the system take care of the rest. http://www.soundhounds.com/

At the end of the day I simply would not rely on the reviews - I bought Audio Note with zero reviews - if I need a review to buy a speaker chances are the speaker didn't sell me on the way they sounded. AN is interested in selling to people who listen to music - not to people who buy from a magazine. My dealer also pointed out that it's good to have people who have been through several SYSTEMS before they get to Audio Note.

This guy has been down the Audio Game far longer than me and bought all those Stereophile magazines et al and trusted in the business (and it is a business) of the review magazines - it took him a while but he finally figured it out - and so have I --- i used to buy tons of magazines and trust tin them - no longer.

It's quite a well written review - better than most any one you'll find in a review publication http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=345133&review=1

theaudiohobby
02-03-2005, 01:08 AM
RGA

Without a doubt, in every discussion, no matter how unreasonable your opinion, you always have to have the last word, I looked for measurements of the PMC AML1 and I only found only one on the audio ideas guide (http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/loudspeakers/pmc-aml1.html), you can have a look at it yourself, all it does is make you look even more foolish as it shows that the bass of the AML1 starts rolling off at 60Hz.

Audio Note speakers do not have any published measurements accessible via the web, they have measurement commentary, but they are not the same and a very poor substitute. As for the ELACs 310iJET, they have the on-axis anechoic measurements as well as in-room response for simple rooms on their site. The comparison against the Audio Note K/D was done in my home and I still maintain that that the K/D is a very average speaker, it suffers from severe box resonances that have adverse effects on its lower midrange and bass performance. In addition to that it has a curtailed top end. Thankfully, both issues have been have concurred by other posters on the speaker asylum recently.

I do not have fanatical attachment to any speaker and I only recommend speakers based on user requirements, hence I do not recommend the same speaker willy-nilly, the ELACs are European speakers and not readily available in North America. When recommending the Genelec, I did not attach any review whatsoever, something you do very frequently, posting links to soundhounds or any positive commentary about Audio Note products at every opportunity.

The Genelec 8000 series is a new set of products and IMHO offer certain performance advantages at their price point, their top-to-bottom coherence, tonal integrity and great midrange presence, it is fair to say that the 8050 especially has an excellent woofer which makes for good midrange clarity and as well as wonderfully articulate bass. For the treble shy such as yourself, it has treble tilt switches to tune the treble to taste, bass tilt switches to adjust bass to fit room characteristics, as well as adjustable input sensitivity to match gain to chosen preamplifier, it is active, so the risk of speaker/amplifier mismatch is out of the equation. To date, I have yet see a formal review of the Genelec 8050, if there is one, I will be interested in seeing it.

In the end your post smells of sour grapes, hypocrisy and oneupmanship. You are constantly vacillating, on the one hand, using measurements of unfavoured speakers as a weapon to proclaim the superiority of your favoured speakers, but on the other hand, defending the lack of published measurements of the selfsame favoured speakers. It is hypocritical and childish to recommend listening to speakers without regard to reviews, specs or measurements, yet take every opportunity to use those items as basis ot criticise speakers you have not heard.

RGA
02-03-2005, 01:57 AM
Not really sure why you bring up the AML 1 - I have never heard it - you must be mistaking me with another poster.

The frequency response of the Genelecs is posted on their website and even with the treble tilts bass tilts it's still a spiked treble. Diverting attention away from that and trying to bring up other speakers is curious to me - I am not in love with PMC - I respect the fact though that people like this sort of sound - and when I get the sense that someone likes this sort of sound I recommend PMC. People like added zing to their treble I have no problem if you like treble zing but please don't try and state your usual "what I like is neutral and accurate" and anyone who likes a speaker with a similar deviation but a dip likes a coloured innacurate mess."

PMC/Bryston is just about the antithesis of what Audio Note is all about. The AN K is used in recording studios - your talk on Colouration is parroting a reviewer who was using a SS amp (strike one) in a room not conducive to audio note (strike 2) and not demonstrated in the measurements (strike 3) and even with that they bought the speakers. NO ONE I know of agrees with you on the K speakers. You have said the speaker sounds worse than the 705 - No one I know of that has done side by side comparisons like I HAVE would agree - it's not close - box colouration is too funny the 705 has a clear thump when it's pushed that the K did not exhibit and on Ravel's Bolero the K presents massive scale that I've heard from no similaraly priced standmounts - you calin they lose it - that's funny = wonder what Bob Neil would say. He is a pro reviewer and liked the AN's so muc he decided to pick them up as a product line to sell - which is now very unfortunate because he won;t be able to review anymore AN products as now he'd be in a conflict of interest.

You're correct there is not use in arguing - I don;t like getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent - but worse - I find you have terrible taste in music reproduction.

theaudiohobby
02-03-2005, 01:59 AM
You're correct there is not use in arguing - I don;t like getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent - but worse - I find you have terrible taste in music reproduction.

Sour grapes :p :p :p :p , get a life.

theaudiohobby
02-03-2005, 02:01 AM
The AN K is used in recording studios - your talk on Colouration is parroting a reviewer who was using a SS amp (strike one) in a room not conducive to audio note (strike 2) and not demonstrated in the measurements (strike 3) and even with that they bought the speakers. NO ONE I know of agrees with you on the K speakers. pponent - but worse - I find you have terrible taste in music reproduction.

And what reviewer will that be, mind posting the link? And pray tell, name some of the recording studios that use the AN K? Do they use it as a nearfield monitor?

RGA
02-03-2005, 02:06 AM
Hi-fi choice.

Ahh AN doesn't advertise their studio users...why will you love them if you find out?

Bob Neil is a reviewer for Positive Feedback

where is the link for the ELAC Their lifestyle speakers - gotta love their name and no information as to the +/- figure of their frequency response doesn;t help.

RGA
02-03-2005, 02:14 AM
Yeah lots of people don't like the K eh? http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/182546.html

theaudiohobby
02-03-2005, 02:38 AM
Hi-fi choice. You are a bit nervous eh :p :p :p , is that not the same Hi-fi choice you quote to bolster your recommendations?


Ahh AN doesn't advertise their studio users...why will you love them if you find out?. Another coput :p :p :p , I wonder why AN is so reticent.


where is the link for the ELAC Their lifestyle speakers - gotta love their name and no information as to the +/- figure of their frequency response doesn;t help.

Go to room acoustics (http://www.elac.com/en/products/caraquickb.html#), the freefield measurements are right there.

theaudiohobby
02-03-2005, 02:41 AM
Yeah lots of people don't like the K eh? http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/182546.html

Scrambling around to defend your favoured speaker line uh.. :p :p

RGA
02-03-2005, 02:45 AM
You know what - I hope people just ignore RGA and TAH - go listen to the stuff and decide for yourself - all the Measurements techno speak in the world blah blah blah - You pick something you like. If you likes the SS kinda presentation or the SET sound is inconsequential - just make sure you actually bother to listen to both.

People hear it differently - Some reviewers are going to like stats some with ribbons and on and on and some will like Audio Note - Yeah I'm a fan but a LOT of people out there love em - Bob Neil:

"AN-K/SPe

The K is among my very few favorite speakers of all time. While there others, (notably Audio Note Js and Es) that go lower and higher with more ease, and make a bigger and arguably more accurate impression, the Ks have a special quality that larger, more effortlessly full-range speakers generally lack. Those who remember with fondness the KLH Six (compared with the Five and Twelve), the larger Advent, and the Celestion SL6 will know what Im talking about. The K/SPes are better speakers than any of those classics; but they share their appeal, their ability to speak incisively and almost personally through the essential midrange, which, because of the Ks lighter low end, is where their balance is centered. They have an immediacy, a presence, exciting leading edge behavior, and tactile musical excitement, along with a beguiling hint of opacity (!), just as their predecessors had. The smaller Reynauds have some of this strange blend of tactile immediacy and opacity. The Ks have sealed cabinets, which clearly account for some of their sonic quality. The KLH, Advent, and Celestion were all sealed; the Reynauds are ported. A substantial benefit of the Ks is that they perform superbly on the modest OTO integrated amp.

AN-J/SPe

The considerably larger, ported Js are unquestionably "better" speakers than their little brothers, in the sense that they go lower with more authority, go higher with more ease they are smoother and more open sounding; and they create a larger image. They have less personality than the Ks (as KLH Fives and Twelves had less than the Sixes) because they make fewer compromises (cabinet size mainly, which means the smaller speakers have to work harder to cover the spectrum) and it is compromises that bring personality to a speaker, for better and for worse. The Js can go literally anywhere and come remarkably close to their big brother Es sense of effortless transparency. In a small room, they are quite happy on the OTO, though in a large room, I would like to hear them on an amp with a little more oomph to tighten up the low end.

AN-E/SPe

The E is the first Audio Note speaker I heard, so my remarks on them, written soon after they arrived, are considerably more extensive and to some degree apply to all Audio Note speakers.

Audio Notes are the only speakers I have yet to hear that present a truly viable different perspective than Reynauds. Peter Qvortrup says they are "correct and accurate to the recording," an argument I have heard in favor of a great many speakers I admire but am not (any longer) drawn to. Harbeths, most recently. But Audio Note speakers, the Es in particular, since they are the ones I know best, are very persuasive, whatever the philosophy behind them. Perhaps Peter has sprinkled some fairy dust on them and not told any of us.

They did not take me by storm. I expect this is mainly because they dont sound at all like Reynauds, which is the speaker voice that has occupied my head for quite a while now. Reynauds generate a sense of almost palpable emotional atmosphere about them: they are wonderfully breathy, naturally warm, and full of musical presence. They are so effective at this that they can make other, quite excellent, speakers sound lean in direct contrast. Which is exactly what they did to a pair of AN E/SPes the first few weeks I had them here.

Audio Note speakers are not lean, they are as clear as a New England fall day and, once the transition from JMR speakers is made, exhilaratingly open and gloriously transparent. Violins in particular are transcendent. Transparent to source or performance? To source, it seems, because, unlike Reynauds, they are not especially merciful to bad digital transfers. But to most of mine, and I have a great many, they are full of nice surprises. I have never much enjoyed the sound of Chandos CDs and they sound very fine on the Es. They seem to give all decent recordings more than a fair chance to show what theyve got; though Ill confess, amplified rock music, intended for automobiles and boom-boxes, comes off a little threadbare. The best recordings sound extraordinary. Every recording sounds distinct from every other recording, which is their designers criterion for excellence. If this is what accuracy to source really sounds like when executed with imagination, I may to rethink my catechism.

Like Audio Note electronics, they are eloquent rather than ingratiating. This seems to have a great deal to do with their speed, their responsiveness to an audio signal. I have never quite understood the importance of this attribute until now. It seems to be what gives the Es their extraordinary verisimilitude. Music coming through them sounds a great deal like what I heard in the spring of 2004 at the Aldeburgh Festival in Norfolk, England. (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/festival.htm) Notes break the air with great speed and little effort, giving them great immediacy.

They can be difficult to set up. All Audio Note speakers are designed to be in the corners of the room, toed in such that their lines cross about a meter in front of the listening position. My rooms corners are eighteen feet (!) apart, so the toe-in here is absolutely essential. They love low-powered SETs. Once I got my demo Es snugged back into the corners, the full length drapes (behind them and in front of my floor to ceiling glass wall) drawn a couple of feet past them and pulled away from their rear-firing ports, they began to have their way with me. I drive mine with parallel 2A3 Audio Note Neiros, while many AN-E owners prefer 300B based amps, of which Audio Note makes a great many. I would expect Es to sound very fine on the moderately priced Meishu integrated, for openers.

Now, several months in, I am convinced that the alternative sonic universe that Audio Note speakers propose is as absolutely as viable as the Reynaud universe. Their openness and clarity throughout their surprising range can be magic. And, as with all things Audio Note, the magic increases as you move up the line, mainly adding more silver wiring and external crossovers. But, as with the OTO integrated amplifier and Dac 1.1x Signature II, the magic is there from the beginning."

You either like it or you don't --- and those who do ---- there really isn't a whole lot else out there that will convince this AN religion otherwise. Since I'm an Agnostic they offer me something at least.

46minaudio
02-03-2005, 08:22 AM
You know what - I hope people just ignore RGA and TAH - go listen to the stuff and decide for yourself - all the Measurements techno speak in the world blah blah blah - You pick something you like. If you likes the SS kinda presentation or the SET sound is inconsequential - just make sure you actually bother to listen to both.

People hear it differently - Some reviewers are going to like stats some with ribbons and on and on and some will like Audio Note - Yeah I'm a fan but a LOT of people out there love em - Bob Neil:

"AN-K/SPe

The K is among my very few favorite speakers of all time. While there others, (notably Audio Note Js and Es) that go lower and higher with more ease, and make a bigger and arguably more accurate impression, the Ks have a special quality that larger, more effortlessly full-range speakers generally lack. Those who remember with fondness the KLH Six (compared with the Five and Twelve), the larger Advent, and the Celestion SL6 will know what Im talking about. The K/SPes are better speakers than any of those classics; but they share their appeal, their ability to speak incisively and almost personally through the essential midrange, which, because of the Ks lighter low end, is where their balance is centered. They have an immediacy, a presence, exciting leading edge behavior, and tactile musical excitement, along with a beguiling hint of opacity (!), just as their predecessors had. The smaller Reynauds have some of this strange blend of tactile immediacy and opacity. The Ks have sealed cabinets, which clearly account for some of their sonic quality. The KLH, Advent, and Celestion were all sealed; the Reynauds are ported. A substantial benefit of the Ks is that they perform superbly on the modest OTO integrated amp.

AN-J/SPe

The considerably larger, ported Js are unquestionably "better" speakers than their little brothers, in the sense that they go lower with more authority, go higher with more ease they are smoother and more open sounding; and they create a larger image. They have less personality than the Ks (as KLH Fives and Twelves had less than the Sixes) because they make fewer compromises (cabinet size mainly, which means the smaller speakers have to work harder to cover the spectrum) and it is compromises that bring personality to a speaker, for better and for worse. The Js can go literally anywhere and come remarkably close to their big brother Es sense of effortless transparency. In a small room, they are quite happy on the OTO, though in a large room, I would like to hear them on an amp with a little more oomph to tighten up the low end.

AN-E/SPe

The E is the first Audio Note speaker I heard, so my remarks on them, written soon after they arrived, are considerably more extensive and to some degree apply to all Audio Note speakers.

Audio Notes are the only speakers I have yet to hear that present a truly viable different perspective than Reynauds. Peter Qvortrup says they are "correct and accurate to the recording," an argument I have heard in favor of a great many speakers I admire but am not (any longer) drawn to. Harbeths, most recently. But Audio Note speakers, the Es in particular, since they are the ones I know best, are very persuasive, whatever the philosophy behind them. Perhaps Peter has sprinkled some fairy dust on them and not told any of us.

They did not take me by storm. I expect this is mainly because they dont sound at all like Reynauds, which is the speaker voice that has occupied my head for quite a while now. Reynauds generate a sense of almost palpable emotional atmosphere about them: they are wonderfully breathy, naturally warm, and full of musical presence. They are so effective at this that they can make other, quite excellent, speakers sound lean in direct contrast. Which is exactly what they did to a pair of AN E/SPes the first few weeks I had them here.

Audio Note speakers are not lean, they are as clear as a New England fall day and, once the transition from JMR speakers is made, exhilaratingly open and gloriously transparent. Violins in particular are transcendent. Transparent to source or performance? To source, it seems, because, unlike Reynauds, they are not especially merciful to bad digital transfers. But to most of mine, and I have a great many, they are full of nice surprises. I have never much enjoyed the sound of Chandos CDs and they sound very fine on the Es. They seem to give all decent recordings more than a fair chance to show what theyve got; though Ill confess, amplified rock music, intended for automobiles and boom-boxes, comes off a little threadbare. The best recordings sound extraordinary. Every recording sounds distinct from every other recording, which is their designers criterion for excellence. If this is what accuracy to source really sounds like when executed with imagination, I may to rethink my catechism.

Like Audio Note electronics, they are eloquent rather than ingratiating. This seems to have a great deal to do with their speed, their responsiveness to an audio signal. I have never quite understood the importance of this attribute until now. It seems to be what gives the Es their extraordinary verisimilitude. Music coming through them sounds a great deal like what I heard in the spring of 2004 at the Aldeburgh Festival in Norfolk, England. (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/festival.htm) Notes break the air with great speed and little effort, giving them great immediacy.

They can be difficult to set up. All Audio Note speakers are designed to be in the corners of the room, toed in such that their lines cross about a meter in front of the listening position. My rooms corners are eighteen feet (!) apart, so the toe-in here is absolutely essential. They love low-powered SETs. Once I got my demo Es snugged back into the corners, the full length drapes (behind them and in front of my floor to ceiling glass wall) drawn a couple of feet past them and pulled away from their rear-firing ports, they began to have their way with me. I drive mine with parallel 2A3 Audio Note Neiros, while many AN-E owners prefer 300B based amps, of which Audio Note makes a great many. I would expect Es to sound very fine on the moderately priced Meishu integrated, for openers.

Now, several months in, I am convinced that the alternative sonic universe that Audio Note speakers propose is as absolutely as viable as the Reynaud universe. Their openness and clarity throughout their surprising range can be magic. And, as with all things Audio Note, the magic increases as you move up the line, mainly adding more silver wiring and external crossovers. But, as with the OTO integrated amplifier and Dac 1.1x Signature II, the magic is there from the beginning."

You either like it or you don't --- and those who do ---- there really isn't a whole lot else out there that will convince this AN religion otherwise. Since I'm an Agnostic they offer me something at least.
You have out done yourself this time by posting this ad.In short reviews are only good if they support AN (Pro and consumer).Measurments only mean anything if they show flaws in speakers other than AN.If one does not like the likes of AN you get this
I find you have terrible taste in music reproduction..
Here is a good one,ANs are not effected by a room..However If one does not like the ANs the room is to blame..Recievers SUCK DONKEY BALLS,and SS amps are worthless..RGA you need medical help...

kexodusc
02-03-2005, 09:03 AM
I've long suspected Bob Neil started selling Audio Note (or at least planned to) long before he ever wrote that review...hence an inherrent conflict of interest...Even if I'm wrong that review ranks right up there with reviews I've read of how "the 901's twist time and space into an ethereal sonic fabric bringing you to the stage"....yaaawwwnnn!!!!

RGA: What in the blue hell have you done now? This thread has gone waaaaay overboard!


Perhaps Peter has sprinkled some fairy dust on them and not told any of us.

The only dust sprinkling going on here is to line up the cocaine some of these AN users are obviously snorting.

I don't know what's worse...the fact that people suck you into these pointless flame wars or your propensity to engage in them...

RGA
02-03-2005, 01:08 PM
Bob Neill sells very few pieces of audio gear - and he sells what he owns. He reviewed the product based on a recommendation liked it so much that he decided to be a dealer. The review above is not a formal review that would be printed in a magazine or on a web-zine. It his his opinion of the speakers he actually bought and on his web-site for his company only.

I think people like Bob are about the best people out there to purchase from because they ONLY sell what they love. I lasted 3 days in sales because I could not look someone in the eye and say Bose is a great value and you'll be happy with your purchase. I could only sell what I could stand behind. That's the kind of dealer I would be looking for. Which does not in th least suggest that people will agree with Bob's taste but nevertheless at least you know the guy isn;t just ttrying to move any box at any cost like the folks at Audio Video Unlimited or FutureSHop selling Paradigm and Bose. They don't know good sound and thye don't care if you ever do either.

I post reviews of speakers I like but from people who seem not to be paid off - AN doesn't pay in any way to the people reviewing - and any company who does is in a conflict of interest - so it's odd that Bob gets called out but the hundreds of thousands of dollars B&W and Paradigm have paid Stereophile --- well there's no conflict there??? Give me a break.

I suppose I should not post reviews if I'm not for them - but some people will only consider a speaker that gets a good review - so to pander to such people I post them and usually always say that I would not truust the reviews - their is no hypocracy in it because I state here's a review - BUT....don't go by the reviews alone.

Measurements? Firstly, some people like to imply that what they LOVE is neutral and or accurate and that because they LIKE itthen AN or other companies are not accurate or not neutral blah blah blah. Well forst there is no perfectly accurate speaker - and the Genelec I illustrate is clearly NOT. It has frequency anomolies period just as Audio Note and Reference 3a and a host of other speakers I like do.

I have said for a long time that if you like that spiked sound great I don't but please stop saying it's more accurate. Some people will hear that as neutral - other people will hear it as cold and bright. Some people will hear AN as neutral others might say something else.

To me SS amps suck for the most part compared to the SETs I've heard. Ahh RGA is not aloud to have taste he must conform only to what 46min audio and TAH likes --- ahh man I'm not even American and I know about the Freedom of opinion. I have heard a LOT of gear over the years a lot directly compared to eachother in several rooms. I'll stand by the choice I make and I will try and convince people to not make the same MISTAKES I made by believing the rags and the advertising hype. Kevin F not a reviewer just an audiophile guy has had a very similar experience - though he spent way more money a 20kGBP system and relied on the rags solely. http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=345133&review=1 We have found the panacea in AN. And I was interested in the system that he used to own here as well because his experience with some pretty big name stuff is exactly the kind of stuff I have heard...his result isn't the least bit surprising to me.

I'll take the abuse - I am glad I largely avoided several purchasing moves I was close to making over the years based off of forums and magazines. And i'd like to save a few other people from what Kevin and I have gone through. Some people who have never heard better than Bose may think Bose is great - but if they do they may go "Nuts...I could have brand X which is far far better for less than half the price...Double Nuts"

MusicLG
02-03-2005, 02:07 PM
Yo! You guys are supposed to be sharing your knowledge and opinions to help answer the question we newbie posters are asking. This shouldn't be a political debate or a personal attack on each other. Let's keep it to the question! It's all about the music, isn't it?
MusicLG

Florian
02-03-2005, 02:13 PM
LOL !!!! :p :p :p :p :p :p

Everytime, in every single post someone is *****ing with someone. I myself have *****ed a tons of people. Does this site ever change ?

As far as i go, i have no freaking clue about Pro sound, All i know is that the VMPS 626R is a awsome speaker for music, and that the Nautilus 800 series (bookshelf) and the dynaudios are great.

46minaudio
02-03-2005, 02:32 PM
Bob Neill sells very few pieces of audio gear - and he sells what he owns. He reviewed the product based on a recommendation liked it so much that he decided to be a dealer. The review above is not a formal review that would be printed in a magazine or on a web-zine. It his his opinion of the speakers he actually bought and on his web-site for his company only.

I think people like Bob are about the best people out there to purchase from because they ONLY sell what they love. I lasted 3 days in sales because I could not look someone in the eye and say Bose is a great value and you'll be happy with your purchase. I could only sell what I could stand behind. That's the kind of dealer I would be looking for. Which does not in th least suggest that people will agree with Bob's taste but nevertheless at least you know the guy isn;t just ttrying to move any box at any cost like the folks at Audio Video Unlimited or FutureSHop selling Paradigm and Bose. They don't know good sound and thye don't care if you ever do either.

I post reviews of speakers I like but from people who seem not to be paid off - AN doesn't pay in any way to the people reviewing - and any company who does is in a conflict of interest - so it's odd that Bob gets called out but the hundreds of thousands of dollars B&W and Paradigm have paid Stereophile --- well there's no conflict there??? Give me a break.

I suppose I should not post reviews if I'm not for them - but some people will only consider a speaker that gets a good review - so to pander to such people I post them and usually always say that I would not truust the reviews - their is no hypocracy in it because I state here's a review - BUT....don't go by the reviews alone.

Measurements? Firstly, some people like to imply that what they LOVE is neutral and or accurate and that because they LIKE itthen AN or other companies are not accurate or not neutral blah blah blah. Well forst there is no perfectly accurate speaker - and the Genelec I illustrate is clearly NOT. It has frequency anomolies period just as Audio Note and Reference 3a and a host of other speakers I like do.

I have said for a long time that if you like that spiked sound great I don't but please stop saying it's more accurate. Some people will hear that as neutral - other people will hear it as cold and bright. Some people will hear AN as neutral others might say something else.

To me SS amps suck for the most part compared to the SETs I've heard. Ahh RGA is not aloud to have taste he must conform only to what 46min audio and TAH likes --- ahh man I'm not even American and I know about the Freedom of opinion. I have heard a LOT of gear over the years a lot directly compared to eachother in several rooms. I'll stand by the choice I make and I will try and convince people to not make the same MISTAKES I made by believing the rags and the advertising hype. Kevin F not a reviewer just an audiophile guy has had a very similar experience - though he spent way more money a 20kGBP system and relied on the rags solely. http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=345133&review=1 We have found the panacea in AN. And I was interested in the system that he used to own here as well because his experience with some pretty big name stuff is exactly the kind of stuff I have heard...his result isn't the least bit surprising to me.

I'll take the abuse - I am glad I largely avoided several purchasing moves I was close to making over the years based off of forums and magazines. And i'd like to save a few other people from what Kevin and I have gone through. Some people who have never heard better than Bose may think Bose is great - but if they do they may go "Nuts...I could have brand X which is far far better for less than half the price...Double Nuts"
If I wanted to I could pick through this post and find where you have contradicted your self on every remark.But Im not...Seek help fast...you need it...

Florian
02-03-2005, 02:36 PM
I think people like Bob are about the best people out there to purchase from because they ONLY sell what they love

Sorry my friend. But every single dealer i bought equipment from (real stuff, no cheap ****) loved the products they sell. They only carry one brand too.

:cool:

RGA
02-03-2005, 07:40 PM
Sorry my friend. But every single dealer i bought equipment from (real stuff, no cheap ****) loved the products they sell. They only carry one brand too.

:cool:
Then maybe you have a good dealer...Like I said you don;t have to AGREE with them - but if I were selling audio gear I would have to sell what I believed in. My dealer sells lots of stuff that they themeselves wouldn't want to own adn don;t own and some they don;t even like - but it's a business and you have to sell what the market demands at least a bit. Soundhounds finally has a home theater room - they have resisted for a LONG time but they have a dedicated converted room. Sometimes you as a businessman have to make compromises - there is a super high end dealer in ancouver that has picked up Bose another admiited to me they would love to carry B&O that a competitor had the rights to. Not because it's any good but because most people demand style over quality. Serge a terrific dealer at Commercial Electronics was given free trips and serf borads from B&O as selling more B&O than anyone in the country or was it anywhere.

He always told people straight out that it wasn;t nearly as good sounding as much of what they carried - but that they fit a look etc blah blah enter sales pitch -- but he was honest and it worked. You learn not to sell - customers rarely ask good dealers what they would buy.

Terry at Soundhounds has said - very few people want advice -- they have picked out their speaker from the magazine --- and have read piles of reviews and phone up to see if they carry model X come down listen for several minutes and buy. Very few bother to spend several hours listening or make a few trips. For people like myself who set up an appointment to listen to a list of speakers - they added one to my list(I bothered to ask - please add one you like that I may not be familiar with). Then I get to hear a product that the people listening to gear day in day out for 20-30 years like - gee maybe they have been down the road - maybe they are themselves audiophiles not just salesman.

My dealer carries so much stuff that it really doesn't matter to them what you buy. Bob Neill could carry more "appealing" speakers and equipment and easier to sell stuff. I like to post Soundhounds because they're a terrific no hard sell dealer.

I should just tell people to do what Steven Rochlin says "what's important is that you .....enjoy the music."

theaudiohobby
02-04-2005, 03:54 AM
Yo! You guys are supposed to be sharing your knowledge and opinions to help answer the question we newbie posters are asking. This shouldn't be a political debate or a personal attack on each other. Let's keep it to the question! It's all about the music, isn't it? MusicLG

Apologies for the missile guided flames, :p , have you auditioned any speakers yet? I am planar guy, currently own some excellent planar hybrids, so I am extremely sensitive to boxiness i.e. do not like it nada :) :) and that trickles down to my standmounts choices, I am very big on dynamics, transparency and midband clarity, good deep articulate bass is a definite plus. Many small speakers as a rule do not excel in the dynamics department and certainly not deep bass, larger less expensive speakers are more dynamic and have more bass but many sound boxy and that robs them of some midband clarity and transparency. The ELACs 310iJET (the pocket rocket) is right up there in terms of midband clarity and tonal integrity, I gather that the 330iJET is better, has better dynamics because of its larger woofer, but it costs twice as much even on the used market. The 310iJET excels in vocals, rock and small band jazz, on large scale orchestral music, it dynamics limitations are exposed though this can be addressed to an reasonable extent by using a subwoofer equiped with a high-pass filter to relief the woofer of deep bass, the solution also does wonders for the midband i.e. less distortion, more clarity. What attracted me to the Genelec 8000 is lack of boxiness, it makes for a wonderfully clear midband, which is in doubt aided by a very capable inert cabinet, it sound delineation is right up there, each instrument and voice occupying their own well defined space. IMHO, the 8050 is equipped with a great woofer driver, coupled with the cabinet it makes very good music, however it costs mucho money :( :( , I like the Sonus Faber Guerneri very unboxy and sweet sound but it costs even more :( :( and does much less well in the bass department still requires outboard amplification. So there, my motivation for my preferences.

JoeE SP9
02-04-2005, 07:03 PM
If you have the space Magnepan MG1.6QR's are IMHO the best bang for the buck. $1600 per pair and worth every penny. If you have never heard planers you owe it to yourself to give these a listen. They do need some real watts. They have a rather low impedence so 40WPC channel receivers need not apply.

MusicLG
02-05-2005, 02:11 PM
Thanks for asking, theaudiohobby. So far, I've auditioned the Paradigm Signature 100s, Audio Monitor Gold 20s and Silver 8s, a planar called Eminent, JM Lab Cobalts and Electras. Lots of others, too, not worth mentioning including some Italian speakers I don't recall the name of which were too expensive and sounded awful. My heart's with the JM Electras. Any thoughts on this, anyone? Thanks!
MuscLG

nate dog
02-05-2005, 02:44 PM
I dont have a lot of experience with various speakers, but a friend has NHT T5's which sound amazing to me. His system is without a doubt the best sounding system that I've ever heard. It easily surpasses any demo room (or theater) I've been in.

Just my .02

theaudiohobby
02-07-2005, 08:14 AM
Thanks for asking, theaudiohobby. So far, I've auditioned the Paradigm Signature 100s, Audio Monitor Gold 20s and Silver 8s, a planar called Eminent, JM Lab Cobalts and Electras. Lots of others, too, not worth mentioning including some Italian speakers I don't recall the name of which were too expensive and sounded awful. My heart's with the JM Electras. Any thoughts on this, anyone? Thanks!
MuscLG

Nice to hear that you like the Electras, they are good speakers, good treble, some top end sparkle, very nice midrange and excellent soundstaging. I have some reservations about its bass delivery especially at that price, I will be seriously consider trying out the Electra 907 Be with a subwoofer. I think well set up it will give you cleaner bass and a more sprightly speaker than the 927 Be/ 926 or 946/947 Be, it might even be cheaper to go that way, your speaker positioning as well as bass tuning options increase, the right subwoofer will probably even give more bass slam, the midrange tends benefit from good subwoofer integration.