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spuppy517
01-16-2005, 09:50 PM
Ok guys - I am having a mental dilemma...... (not uncommon).

As some of you may know, I am in the process of upgrading everything in my HT system.
Next on my list was the receiver, had it all picked out and everything..... but now Sir Terrence the Terrible's post about upgrades in 2005 has me all discombobulated. Problem is this: knowing that the next gen of DVD's are on the horizon along with next gen audio.... do I wait a year (give or take) to get a receiver so it has DD+ and DTS HD, and upgrade my speakers in the mean time. Or f it and go ahead and get the receiver I was going to get as I had planned?? Are any of you waiting for these new decoders before upgrading?

The other issue is this.... even if I wait the year, I probably won't be listening to the new formats right away because I won't be spending the 1000+ these new DVD players are gonna cost (let alone waiting for the dust to settle from the blu-ray/hd dvd war).
So speakers next? Or receiver?? :(

bargainseeker
01-17-2005, 06:59 AM
In my opinion, it is never a bad time to upgrade speakers. Over time, the speakers you buy today may get moved from room to room but they will be with you for many years. It is worth it to buy the best speakers you can afford.

Buying a receiver is more like buying a PC. Whatever you buy today will be obsolete in five years or so. It's usually a bad idea to buy more receiver than you really need.

kexodusc
01-17-2005, 08:25 AM
As bargainseeker said, I'm tempted to think that upgrading speakers will yield more benefit as far as sound quality goes. I would argue that you'll get more benefit having better main speakers for music listening and a matching center/rears for a solid 5.1 home theater system experience, than upgrading to a slightly better digital format that may or may not have DVD's available any time soon.

I don't know how much you have budgeted, or what gear you have now, but typically, speakers are the most expensive part of a system to replace, so this might influence your decision.

What kind of receiver do you have right now? If you plan on upgrading to 6.1 or 7.1 (I believe it's worthwhile, but only when you're happy with your 5.1 system) then a receiver with Pro-Logic IIx and the the latest DTS/Dolby Digital processing is probably a minimum.

A receiver might add more "fun factor" to your listening experience with the latest processing, DSP's, stereo modes (including direct mode, which I find helps a bit), provide more inputs, flexibility etc, but if you're more fussy about sound quality, I still think that speakers almost always offer the greatest area for improvement. Receivers offer slight improvements to the sound, speakers can offer significantly larger improvements to sound

What is it you like the least about your system right now? What do you use it for more, stereo music, or watching movies?

shokhead
01-17-2005, 04:26 PM
Its going to keep changing every year. Whats set in stone now will not be tomorrow. You know like DVI was it,for a year now its HDMI for now.

brulaha
01-17-2005, 04:40 PM
DD and DTS were huge leaps forward in surround sound. Without knowing about these new formats, I doubt they will be as big a leap. Probably better yes, but they're always releasing new bells and whistles as others have said. Quality speakers are always a good investment.

What kind of speakers do you currently have? Do you really need to upgrade or are you just itching to spend money?

spuppy517
01-18-2005, 12:34 AM
What kind of speakers do you currently have? Do you really need to upgrade or are you just itching to spend money?

I'm always itching to spend money! :D Money I generally don't have, but that's ok. Right now my system sucks. The entire thing, I believe desparately needs an overhaul.
I am using a 5 1/2 year old out-of-the-box surround Aiwa system. (ugh!) You know, comes with 5 speakers, receiver and sub. I have been wanting to upgrade for years but have been happy enough with the system overall. So then alomost 2 years ago I got a Toshiba 57" WS rear projection tv (sweet). And around thanksgiving this year the sub died. So it has prompted me to start the upgrade I have been longing for. So I just got a new sub (A VTF2-Mk2 HSU sub). I figured the next logical step would be the receiver but, maybe not. If I do get the speakers next - I would only be able to afford the mains and a center, the rears would have to wait a little longer. No way I could buy them all now.

Now that being said. The receiver I picked out is the H/K AVR 435 (due out in Feb I think). I realize that when it comes to receivers there is always going to be the next thing, it just seems like that DD+ and DTS HD might be something worth waiting for. But again I could be wrong, maybe it isn't going to be some giant leap forward. If it was something like PLII I wouldn't even give a crap. Am I just making too big a thing out of the new audio formats?
All I know is that when I watch LOTR some scenes don't sound half as cool as they did in the theater! (I know - I'm a big geek), could just be my suck ass speakers or the fact that my current receiver only had DD and not DTS (I heard you can hear the difference). Dunno?

Oh and I use the system for both but I would say it's more 90% used for movies. So what do you guys think? Still speakers next???

htfan14
01-18-2005, 07:55 AM
It would be nice if somebody in the industry waded into this thread and give us some insight into these new audio formats. I too am very interested to know whether this is the next big thing or just another money grab.
In response to your question, you never go wrong with good speakers. I have the Energy line as well (for centre and mains) driven by a Denon 3802 and 2 10" Velodynes and love it.

bargainseeker
01-18-2005, 09:24 AM
I'm always itching to spend money! :D Money I generally don't have, but that's ok. Right now my system sucks. The entire thing, I believe desparately needs an overhaul.
I am using a 5 1/2 year old out-of-the-box surround Aiwa system. (ugh!) You know, comes with 5 speakers, receiver and sub. I have been wanting to upgrade for years but have been happy enough with the system overall. So then alomost 2 years ago I got a Toshiba 57" WS rear projection tv (sweet). And around thanksgiving this year the sub died. So it has prompted me to start the upgrade I have been longing for. So I just got a new sub (A VTF2-Mk2 HSU sub). I figured the next logical step would be the receiver but, maybe not. If I do get the speakers next - I would only be able to afford the mains and a center, the rears would have to wait a little longer. No way I could buy them all now.

Now that being said. The receiver I picked out is the H/K AVR 435 (due out in Feb I think). I realize that when it comes to receivers there is always going to be the next thing, it just seems like that DD+ and DTS HD might be something worth waiting for. But again I could be wrong, maybe it isn't going to be some giant leap forward. If it was something like PLII I wouldn't even give a crap. Am I just making too big a thing out of the new audio formats?
All I know is that when I watch LOTR some scenes don't sound half as cool as they did in the theater! (I know - I'm a big geek), could just be my suck ass speakers or the fact that my current receiver only had DD and not DTS (I heard you can hear the difference). Dunno?

Oh and I use the system for both but I would say it's more 90% used for movies. So what do you guys think? Still speakers next???Given your situation and budget, I would not recommend that you spend $1000 for a receiver. The point of diminishing returns sets in more quickly with receivers than it does with speakers. I would recommend that you plan on allocating no more than 15% - 20% of your total long term home theater budget (receiver/amp + 5-7 speakers + subwoofer) to the receiver. If you are willing to buy a factory reconditioned receiver from an authorized dealer, I would recommend that you allocate only 10% of your budget to the receiver.

spuppy517
01-19-2005, 12:55 AM
It would be nice if somebody in the industry waded into this thread and give us some insight into these new audio formats.

I agree. I have read many posts in this forum and avsforum.com talking about how DD+ and DTS HD are the "new" thing, and coming with in a year, blah, blah, blah..... but does anyone know how good it actually sounds??? That's all I really care about, and I guess what will make my ultimate decision on waiting or not. I think I'm gonna start a new thread specifically directed towards industry and see what we get :D
But I think you guys have convinced me to wait a bit more either way and go with getting speakers next.


Given your situation and budget, I would not recommend that you spend $1000 for a receiver. The point of diminishing returns sets in more quickly with receivers than it does with speakers.

Why would you not recommend spending that much? Do you mean right now, or ever??
I had already figured on spending about $800 (give or take) on a new receiver and can get the 435 for about $700 - so I didn't think anything of spending that much.

markw
01-19-2005, 01:23 AM
This hobby is geared to keep factory workers in third world countries and salesmen in the USA employed. They depend on new models every couple of months.

This in and of itself is not a bad thing but we, as wise consumers, must decide if this "new and improved" is really that earth shaking or a minor feature that wecould really live without.

For instance, a brief history of HT. Audio was petty stagnant for most of it's life.

Dolby Surround 4 channel (through 5 speakers) surround for VHS Hi-Fi arrived. It was the only game in town. All the early adaptors jumped on board out.

A few years later, Dolby Pro Logic came out for this. Basically the same format but with better steering and separation. It didn't do too bad a job for what it was.

Then, in the late 90's DVD's and Dolby Digital hit. Now THIS was a quantum leap. WE've moved from 2 channels of analog sound being matrixed into four channels to digital dormat which gave us 5 discrete (plus LFE). (DTS was rumored to be "just down the road")

..to be followed a year or so later by DTS. Much gnashing of teeth and hand wringing by the early adapters who just bought a DD only setup the year before.

OK, things settle down for a few years.

Now the 6.1 stuff starts to arrive. Everyone with DD/DTS 5.1 receivers wants to trade in their old 5.1 units for the brandy new 6.1 units.

Does this obsolete 5.1? Dunno. You tell me. I don't have the room to properly accomodate it even though my receiver allows for it. But, 5.1 still sounds pret-tty durn good to me.

Around now DPL2 arrives. Now, everyone is questioning wether or not to trade in their DD/DTS receivers with plain old DPL for this new feature.

Now, 7.1 hits. 7.1 actually isn't a "real" format. It's a feature that works off of other formats. More theeth gnashing and hand wringing.

Then, DPL2x hits the market. Again, many questions but it doesn't seem too many are going to trade in a perfectly good two or three old unit just for that. People seem to be wising up.

So, now we have new formats? People are starting to talk. Why am I not surprised.

I'd say wait and see where this goes. If you're lucky, you might, just might, score a really, really good deal on last year's model of a receiver.

For instance, I was able to score a Denon 2802, NIB from an authorized dealer in the area for $395, or roughly half price, when the 2803 hit the market about two years ago. Do I miss the features of the 2803, 2085? Dunno. I have my hands full and an more than satisfied with 5.1 (even though it can do 6.1) and DPL2.

So, I'd wait and see exactly what this new format offers and delivers on and if you really, really feel you need it. Of course, if $$ is not an issue, always go for the newest but for me, it's a major issue. Heck, most of my jobs went overseas. Why give them more of my money?

Speakers are always a good buy, though, and will have the greatest impact on the overall sound of the system.

enjoy...

kexodusc
01-19-2005, 05:10 AM
markw's post deserves a 2nd read, and should be pinned on the front page of the forums for all to see.

shokhead
01-19-2005, 06:46 AM
This hobby is geared to keep factory workers in third world countries and salesmen in the USA employed. They depend on new models every couple of months.

This in and of itself is not a bad thing but we, as wise consumers, must decide if this "new and improved" is really that earth shaking or a minor feature that wecould really live without.

For instance, a brief history of HT. Audio was petty stagnant for most of it's life.

Dolby Surround 4 channel (through 5 speakers) surround for VHS Hi-Fi arrived. It was the only game in town. All the early adaptors jumped on board out.

A few years later, Dolby Pro Logic came out for this. Basically the same format but with better steering and separation. It didn't do too bad a job for what it was.

Then, in the late 90's DVD's and Dolby Digital hit. Now THIS was a quantum leap. WE've moved from 2 channels of analog sound being matrixed into four channels to digital dormat which gave us 5 discrete (plus LFE). (DTS was rumored to be "just down the road")

..to be followed a year or so later by DTS. Much gnashing of teeth and hand wringing by the early adapters who just bought a DD only setup the year before.

OK, things settle down for a few years.

Now the 6.1 stuff starts to arrive. Everyone with DD/DTS 5.1 receivers wants to trade in their old 5.1 units for the brandy new 6.1 units.

Does this obsolete 5.1? Dunno. You tell me. I don't have the room to properly accomodate it even though my receiver allows for it. But, 5.1 still sounds pret-tty durn good to me.

Around now DPL2 arrives. Now, everyone is questioning wether or not to trade in their DD/DTS receivers with plain old DPL for this new feature.

Now, 7.1 hits. 7.1 actually isn't a "real" format. It's a feature that works off of other formats. More theeth gnashing and hand wringing.

Then, DPL2x hits the market. Again, many questions but it doesn't seem too many are going to trade in a perfectly good two or three old unit just for that. People seem to be wising up.

So, now we have new formats? People are starting to talk. Why am I not surprised.

I'd say wait and see where this goes. If you're lucky, you might, just might, score a really, really good deal on last year's model of a receiver.

For instance, I was able to score a Denon 2802, NIB from an authorized dealer in the area for $395, or roughly half price, when the 2803 hit the market about two years ago. Do I miss the features of the 2803, 2085? Dunno. I have my hands full and an more than satisfied with 5.1 (even though it can do 6.1) and DPL2.

So, I'd wait and see exactly what this new format offers and delivers on and if you really, really feel you need it. Of course, if $$ is not an issue, always go for the newest but for me, it's a major issue. Heck, most of my jobs went overseas. Why give them more of my money?

Speakers are always a good buy, though, and will have the greatest impact on the overall sound of the system.

enjoy...

And thats why i left all this for a good 5 years as it was just to insane to keep up with. After i stopped,i enjoyed my gear alot more. Really,the only thing that doesnt change enough to worry about are speakers,imo.

Worf101
01-19-2005, 07:10 AM
Markw hit the nail on the proverbial head. Almost all my gear is old, from my 20 year old 35-inch Mitsubishi TV to "3 models old" Onkyo 898 receiver and my orphaned Platinum Audio Studio 3 mains. I've nothing bleeding edge in my main system and have no plans on doing any upgrading unless and until some new format really arrives and maybe not even then. Good going Mark, couldn't have said it better myself.

Da Worfster :D

markw
01-19-2005, 07:35 AM
Maybe having that second cup of coffee and staying up late did some good after all. ;)

Seriously, I always try to help. It's nice to know it's acknowledged and appreciated.

Silver Fox
01-19-2005, 08:03 AM
Well after all these years playing around with stero HTS etc.Iv'e found out as many will
agree with me, that Bad speakers will make a good system sound lousy and a set of
good speakers will make a lousy system sound better, I vote for the speakers first.

Silver Fox

Woochifer
01-19-2005, 11:53 AM
I think markw pretty much nailed it! Notice that the only true "quantum leap" on the list is the step up between 2.0 surround and 5.1 discrete. IMO, no receiver that has DD 5.1 capability is or will be obsolete in the near future. DD 5.1 is really the only necessary format in home theater right now. It's the standard with DVDs and HDTV broadcasts, and it can playback the DD+ soundtracks that will be included in the HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs. Until a format comes along that completely supplants DD and is not backwards compatible, then a 5.1 receiver will not be obsolete.

DTS, the EX/ES formats, "7.1", DPLII, DTS 96/24, etc. I regard as nice to have, but not necessary. And none of those featuers by themselves are worth junking a [erfectly functional 5.1 receiver to get. Down the road, as the list of decoding and processing capabilities that someone does not currently have gets longer, then they can start thinking about an upgrade.

We won't know the value of DD+ and DTS-HD until we actually see the products. DTS-HD has the potential to be a killer app because it allows for lossless playback, and is backwards compatible with other DTS processors. DTS is already quite nice, but having a lossless high res format that's transparent to the master would mean that for the first time we have no more compromises with multichannel audio -- whether it's the data compression with DTS and DD, or the forced analog output with DVD-A and SACD. Again, we won't know until we actually see the end product, and the formats make their way down to the entry level components.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
01-19-2005, 04:48 PM
In the last 5 months I have heard demo's of both formats(Dts HD and DD+) twice. They are a noticeable improvement over first generation Dts and DD. Dts's improvement was not subtle, but DD+ is pretty subtle(it's still a lossy codec) I listened to a special discrete 6.1 mix of U-571 at dolby's highest 640kbps data rate. I found that DD+ sounds smoother, the rear channel is discrete and sounds cleaner than the matrixed EX. Overall I found the sound to still be flat, and without much depth, but a definate improvement of DD at 448kbps. The first demo was at Dolby labs, the second at Sal Santz dubbing stage in Berkeley.

Dts on the other hand just blew me away. The demo was a specially mixed 7.1 discrete channel of Waterworld. This was at Dts's headquarters in Agoura. Terry Beard first played the PCM 16/48khz lossless 8 channels from a tascam 8 channel hard drive. Then he played back an encoded 7.1 Dts HD mix. No difference heard. Some one asked if they could listen back on headphones, Terry granted that wish. After listening and listening over and over again, no difference between the two. He then put in a specially encoded 24/96khz 5.1 mix of the same soundtrack. Then the encoded HD mix. No difference, absolutely none! The next demo I attended was a Universal Studios dubbing stage B. I was equally as impressed as I was with the first demo.

The reason I am going to hold off purchasing a new receiver is because I felt that both of these format upgrades are defintely worth the wait. I do not want to spend $1000+ bucks on a pre-pro only to find that I do not have the necessary hookups to enjoy both of the formats in all of their glory. What I have now it perfectly sufficient until then.

spuppy517
01-21-2005, 10:16 PM
Well - I'm convinced to upgrade the speakers next, for more than one reason.



Dts on the other hand just blew me away. The demo was a specially mixed 7.1 discrete channel of Waterworld. This was at Dts's headquarters in Agoura. Terry Beard first played the PCM 16/48khz lossless 8 channels from a tascam 8 channel hard drive. Then he played back an encoded 7.1 Dts HD mix. No difference heard. Some one asked if they could listen back on headphones, Terry granted that wish. After listening and listening over and over again, no difference between the two. He then put in a specially encoded 24/96khz 5.1 mix of the same soundtrack. Then the encoded HD mix. No difference, absolutely none! The next demo I attended was a Universal Studios dubbing stage B. I was equally as impressed as I was with the first demo.

This is what I have been waiting to hear from someone, anyone! Thanks Sir Terrence.
And I do agree with Markw as most of you have. 5.1 is really the only MAJOR improvement that has really been worth junking the old, and buying new. I just wanted to know if anyone had actually heard the new DD/Dts and if they were a marked improvement.
Since I really wanna upgrade anyway, I don't believe my current receiver is up to snuff, I just wanted to know if I should wait out the year or not. I can wait. So I will. Speakers, as you all seem to agree, will make the most marked improvement on my system right now, and you have me convinced to go that route next. Thanks! Now, the fun begins of trying to figure out what to get!?!?! Ugh. I have a feeling this is going to take a while, which I think is another reason I was putting it off til last :)