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jschaudel
01-13-2005, 07:41 PM
Hello.

I am putting together a budget A/V system and would like some input regarding which subwoofer I should buy for $500 or less.

The receiver will be either the Denon AVR1705 or Yamaha HTR5750.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

bargainseeker
01-13-2005, 08:00 PM
Hello.

I am putting together a budget A/V system and would like some input regarding which subwoofer I should buy for $500 or less.

The receiver will be either the Denon AVR1705 or Yamaha HTR5750.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

ThanksMy recommendation would be the SVS PB10-ISD (http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb10_isd.htm). I have owned one since it first came out two months ago and I don't know of anything else in this price range that will outperform it. Some reviews on it are here (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/svs-pb10-subwoofer-10-2004.html) and here (http://audioreview.com/PRD_326151_2741crx.aspx).

SepoSloan
01-14-2005, 12:52 PM
I have to admit that my home theater direct sub level 3 is great and rumbles the house when needed and has many controls.

www.hometheaterdirect.com just click on the level 3 and then sub.

jschaudel
01-15-2005, 04:56 AM
Thank you both for your responses.

Bargainseeker,

Are there any other subs comparable to the svs (velodyne dsp10?) that I could compare it against?

In general, how is the sound of an SVS cylinder sub different than the box? Is one better than the other?

Thanks.

kexodusc
01-15-2005, 05:28 AM
Titanic MKIII 12" 500 watt RMS subwoofer from Parts Express...you'll have to build it yourself (a few hours, very easy), and she ain't pretty, but it comes with a parametric equalizer and will smoke any SVS or Hsu Research sub at double the price. It wipes the floor with my PW-2200.

WAF!
01-15-2005, 08:58 AM
Titanic MKIII 12" 500 watt RMS subwoofer from Parts Express...you'll have to build it yourself (a few hours, very easy), and she ain't pretty, but it comes with a parametric equalizer and will smoke any SVS or Hsu Research sub at double the price. It wipes the floor with my PW-2200.


The new PE sub kits have sparked my interest as well. Have you had a chance to do an in room frequency response on your 12" kit? Does it have good response down to 20Hz?

bargainseeker
01-15-2005, 09:07 AM
Are there any other subs comparable to the svs (velodyne dsp10?) that I could compare it against?The closest competitor to the SVS PB10 is the Hsu Research VTF-2 (http://www.hsustore.com/vtf2.html). Because of retail markup, I don't know of any subwoofers available from local brick and mortar (B&M) stores that are in the same league as these in terms of performance for the price. The closest I can think of is the Energy S10.2 (http://www.energy-speakers.com/subwoofers/subwoofer_speakers_S10.html).

In general, how is the sound of an SVS cylinder sub different than the box? Is one better than the other?The cheapest powered cylinder subwoofers from SVS are the PCi series (http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pci.htm) which run from $549 to $649. The woofer in the PCi series is larger than the one in the PB10 but not as technically advanced. The transient response of the PCi series is not as good as the PB10, so they are not as good for music. The 25-31PCi will play louder than the PB10 but will not go as deep. Now that the PB10 is out, I can see little reason to buy either the 16-46PCi or the 20-39PCi unless you need the internal crossover.

kexodusc
01-15-2005, 10:29 AM
The new PE sub kits have sparked my interest as well. Have you had a chance to do an in room frequency response on your 12" kit? Does it have good response down to 20Hz?
I build the 12" for my folks, and only had it in my place for a about 8 days. In my old room I couldn't get below 23 Hz response, but that, I'm sure had more to do with my room acoustics (it was 24 X 24 square) than the sub itself. Which is fine, my tested hearing doesn't pick up much below 22Hz.

My PW-2200 on the other hand cut out in the same room at 24 Hz, despite measurements to 19Hz or something.
At 1/2 the price it is far, far better.
To be honest, I owned the older Hsu Research VTF-2 model and it couldn't keep up with my PW-2200. I feel pretty confident extrapolating that the PE kit would destroy it.

I've ordered the 15" Titanic MKIII woofer and 1000 watt plate amp for the larger model (building a box myself to match the speakers I built), for the money, no commercial subwoofer, on-line retailer or B&M store, can come close.
For more measurements of actual in room performance, you should visit the PE forums. Lots testaments there from people who've owned the popular Hsu Research and SVS subs, Velodynes, Paradigm's, etc....

Good luck

Screw Loose
01-15-2005, 07:24 PM
Hello.

I am putting together a budget A/V system and would like some input regarding which subwoofer I should buy for $500 or less.

Thanks

Hi everybody! This is my very first post here-and what I am about to recommend may not set me too well with my fellow audio enthusiast's. First impression's, eh?

I have bought several subwoofer's over the past 6 week's. For under $500, beleive it or not, Sony has come out with an amazing dual 10" push-pull subwoofer called the SA-WX700. You get front firing and down firing in the same sub. I helped a friend of mine pick this one out, and I borrowed it for a couple day's to check it out. He didn't want to spend more than $200, but I talked him into this one ($259 @Circuit City- Print it off the web and the store will honor the price). It has amazing spec's, and it live's up to them. Zero distortion. "Tight and clean" as they say when describing great sub's.Loud and proud or soft and mellow-it is truly a fantastic sub. I know Sony speaker's as a hard and fast rule stink, but this sub is obviously designed in a whole different division. It is worth every penny-and if you don't like it Circuit City has an easy return policy. But I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Perhap's the following observation will redeem me: ;)

Now, if you are willing to spend another $100 over your $500 limit, the sub I settled on is the Martin Logan Dynamo. You can switch it to front firing or down firing, by moving the base around. When you use it in front firing, it comes with a grille you can attach. Although it is their "entry level" sub, Martin Logan doesn't make anything cheap. It sounds as good as their sub costing 2x as much (in my humble opinion).

46minaudio
01-16-2005, 07:49 AM
I build the 12" for my folks, and only had it in my place for a about 8 days. In my old room I couldn't get below 23 Hz response, but that, I'm sure had more to do with my room acoustics (it was 24 X 24 square) than the sub itself. Which is fine, my tested hearing doesn't pick up much below 22Hz.

My PW-2200 on the other hand cut out in the same room at 24 Hz, despite measurements to 19Hz or something.
At 1/2 the price it is far, far better.
To be honest, I owned the older Hsu Research VTF-2 model and it couldn't keep up with my PW-2200. I feel pretty confident extrapolating that the PE kit would destroy it.

I've ordered the 15" Titanic MKIII woofer and 1000 watt plate amp for the larger model (building a box myself to match the speakers I built), for the money, no commercial subwoofer, on-line retailer or B&M store, can come close.
For more measurements of actual in room performance, you should visit the PE forums. Lots testaments there from people who've owned the popular Hsu Research and SVS subs, Velodynes, Paradigm's, etc....

Good luck
Kex check this driver out at only $329...
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/Avalanche%2015.htm
Same tech as the as the Adire..I bought one of the 500 watt amps from PE on the DOTD.This may be the driver i use.I modled a 8cubic ft box tuned to 17hz on winisd ported that looks good//..

Worf101
01-16-2005, 07:29 PM
I know some folks are tired of me recommending them but I've used HSU subs and recommended them to folks for the last 3 years here and have made some folks quite happy. I've the both the VTF-3 and VTF-2 subs. The former is a 12 inch and the latter is a downfiring 10. I put both through their paces and couldn't be any happier... Hsureasearch.com

Da Worfster :D

spuppy517
01-18-2005, 01:53 AM
HA! I am one of the converts Worf was talking about. I just recently purchased the HSU VTF2 and it is amazing.... it's with in your budget ($499). I don't think you'll be disappointed. I've never heard a SVS sub though. Have read lots of good things about them too. I don't know how the cylinder sub is vs the box, but I just didn't look at them much simply because I didn't like the look (hey - I'm a girl, so I'm allowed to care about such things!)
I did go listen to a Velodyne (don't know if it's the same model you mentioned) but the HSU topped it, easy.

And Worf - I'm not tired of you recommending the HSU's.... in fact I think I'm on your bandwagon. I can't shut up about them! Good luck jschaudel. Let us know what you get.

Luis31
01-18-2005, 10:24 AM
I know some folks are tired of me recommending them but I've used HSU subs and recommended them to folks for the last 3 years here and have made some folks quite happy. I've the both the VTF-3 and VTF-2 subs. The former is a 12 inch and the latter is a downfiring 10. I put both through their paces and couldn't be any happier... Hsureasearch.com

Da Worfster :D


I agree with Da Worfster here. Own both VTF-2 MKI and VTF-3 MKII and couldn't be any happier...

Luis31
01-18-2005, 10:33 AM
I My PW-2200 on the other hand cut out in the same room at 24 Hz, despite measurements to 19Hz or something.
At 1/2 the price it is far, far better. To be honest, I owned the older Hsu Research VTF-2 model and it couldn't keep up with my PW-2200. I feel pretty confident extrapolating that the PE kit would destroy it.


Interesting, Kexodusc

I had quite the opposite experience between my VTF-2 MK1 and the Paradigm PW-2200. In both my HT/Music systems, the VTF-2 outperformed the Paradigm PW-2200. I had similar reads in outputs from 25Hz-60Hz in both subs at 109dB, but in both rooms, the PW-2200 rolled off quickly below 25Hz. On the other hand, the VTF-2 played louder with more authority and pitch definition down to 20Hz at 93dB. In music, the PW-2200 tended to "bloom" a little too much even after properly calibrating it, the VTF-2 simply trounced it.

In the end, I sold the PW-2200 and bought the "superb" VTF-3 MKII

Go figure...

mjon99
01-18-2005, 11:42 AM
I build the 12" for my folks, and only had it in my place for a about 8 days. In my old room I couldn't get below 23 Hz response, but that, I'm sure had more to do with my room acoustics (it was 24 X 24 square) than the sub itself. Which is fine, my tested hearing doesn't pick up much below 22Hz.

My PW-2200 on the other hand cut out in the same room at 24 Hz, despite measurements to 19Hz or something.
At 1/2 the price it is far, far better.
To be honest, I owned the older Hsu Research VTF-2 model and it couldn't keep up with my PW-2200. I feel pretty confident extrapolating that the PE kit would destroy it.

I've ordered the 15" Titanic MKIII woofer and 1000 watt plate amp for the larger model (building a box myself to match the speakers I built), for the money, no commercial subwoofer, on-line retailer or B&M store, can come close.
For more measurements of actual in room performance, you should visit the PE forums. Lots testaments there from people who've owned the popular Hsu Research and SVS subs, Velodynes, Paradigm's, etc....

Good luck

Kex,
I'm always reading about DIY subs and have checked out the kits on PE. Other than the amp, box and driver what else is included? Are there any other wires/hookups that need to be purchased when you decided to buy the amp and driver and build the box yourself? Or is it as simple as out from amp in to driver and that's it. That seems just too easy and if that's all that's needed I don't see why more people don't do this instead of paying for a name. Although, I assume that it's more complicated to build mains myself opposed to a sub.

kexodusc
01-18-2005, 12:28 PM
mjon99:
The woofers just use your basic spring posts, no soldering required. Haven't seen the 15" woofer, but I'm pretty sure it'd be the same, take a look at some pics at PE's website.
Yep, it really is that easy...you'll need a knife some glue or spray adhesive and some screwdrivers and wrenches...way too easy.

I look at it like building computers...I know a million guys that have assembled some or all of their own personal computers with the same parts they'd get from Dell or whoever, but saved a bundle...same thing with DIY speakers and subs.

And building mains isn't nearly as hard as you'd think if you can solder...buy a soldering iron and practice soldering paper clips or finishing nails and in a few hours you'll be more than ready to assemble any kit with pre-fab enclosures. If you can build your own, even better...it's way more work, but far more rewarding.

I'm in the middle of replacing my Paradigm Studio 40's and 20's with none other than the audioreview.com DIY kit by Ed Frias. These are the 2nd speaker design I've built myself, and the 3rd project I've completed (first was a vifa/scan-speak tower combo I had much help with).
The ar.com DIY's are just better at everything than the 20's and have almost as much bass as the 40's, but the bass is more accurate and tight, IMO...the soundstage is much wider, deeper and the imaging is equal if not better...The midrange and high end detail is where the DIY's really move ahead of the Studio's, I really can't think of a commercial speaker under $1200 I like better than these...sure I'm biased now, but it took alot of nerve for me to replace $900 and $1200 speakers with $250 worth of parts.

Warning, the DIY think is dreadfully addictive...I'm on my 3rd speaker project, and about to start my 2nd sub project. I don't think I've really "saved" any money, just learned a lot, picked up a relaxing, enjoyable hobby, and achieved much superior sound.

DIY is a great way to get the most for the least, but keep in mind I haven't designed any of these (that's next after the 15")...designing from scratch, the trial and error etc, would consume a bit more time...the DIY community is great and there's tons of info available though.

Good luck.

Woochifer
01-18-2005, 12:55 PM
First off, how big is your room? If you have a small to medium sized room, and you intend to listen to a lot of music through your system, you might also want to consider going with a sealed box sub.

The advantage of a sealed sub is that dropoff at the low end is more gradual than with a ported sub, they are easier to design properly, they are easier to place, and they have a quicker transient response. If you go DIY, sealed subs are also more forgiving than ported subs if your woodworking skills are less than precise. The disadvantages are that they are less efficient, the low end dropoff begins sooner, and they tend to distort more as they go towards the lower limits of the driver. Subjectively, some people say that sealed subs sound tighter or more musical.

The others have given you a good list of options to consider and they are mostly ported designs. I would add the following sealed subs to your list: the $400 Adire Audio Rava, the $450 Acoustic Visions MRS-10, the $600 Rocket UFW-10, the $600 Martin Logan Dynamo, and the sealed subs from B&W and Atlantic Technology. All of these options have slight differences in how they're configured, how big they are, and how they look.

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/RavaPageFrameText.htm
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofers/pre_finished/mrs10.shtml
http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=subwoofers&product=1.1

Three years ago when I started shopping for subs, the only sealed sub in this price range I found was the Adire Rava, so I bought one. Now, the options have expanded tremendously. If you have a small room, the room gain will boost the low frequencies, and IMO this benefits sealed subs more because of their more gradual rolloff at the low end.

Regardless of which model you opt for, keep in mind that with subwoofers, your room acoustics are every bit as important as which sub model you opt for. This is also why IMO subwoofer comparisons are invalid unless they are all done in the same room using identical positioning and settings. Subwoofer listenings done in different rooms are pretty much useless because the room variation makes all the difference in what you hear, and the room effect gets progressively larger as you go into the lower frequencies.

The room acoustics are especially important if you have a small to medium sized room, because they will tend to develop more problem frequencies where you get huge boomy peaks and/or wave cancellations where the bass disappears. You can remedy this with careful placement, and by using room treatments such as bass traps and a parametric equalizer. Regardless, I think you should at least budget for a SPL meter and a test disc with low frequency tone on it, and a parametric EQ is highly recommended. Together, those items will run you about $170, but they are IMO a crucial investment if you're serious about getting the best possible bass performance. (Not just loud, but extended, and well integrated with the rest of your system)

I use a parametric EQ with my sub, and it made a huge difference in my overall bass performance. Out of the box, it was unbearably boomy, but with some fine tuning on the parametric EQ, the bass is now extended and subjectively tighter sounding because those peaks no longer dominate what I hear and measure. The chart below shows the before and after in-room response on my Rava (you can also see that the Rava has very capable bass all the way down to 25 Hz).

http://members.aol.com/sfwooch/myhomepage/subtest.gif

mjon99
01-19-2005, 07:09 AM
mjon99:
The woofers just use your basic spring posts, no soldering required. Haven't seen the 15" woofer, but I'm pretty sure it'd be the same, take a look at some pics at PE's website.
Yep, it really is that easy...you'll need a knife some glue or spray adhesive and some screwdrivers and wrenches...way too easy.

I look at it like building computers...I know a million guys that have assembled some or all of their own personal computers with the same parts they'd get from Dell or whoever, but saved a bundle...same thing with DIY speakers and subs.

And building mains isn't nearly as hard as you'd think if you can solder...buy a soldering iron and practice soldering paper clips or finishing nails and in a few hours you'll be more than ready to assemble any kit with pre-fab enclosures. If you can build your own, even better...it's way more work, but far more rewarding.

I'm in the middle of replacing my Paradigm Studio 40's and 20's with none other than the audioreview.com DIY kit by Ed Frias. These are the 2nd speaker design I've built myself, and the 3rd project I've completed (first was a vifa/scan-speak tower combo I had much help with).
The ar.com DIY's are just better at everything than the 20's and have almost as much bass as the 40's, but the bass is more accurate and tight, IMO...the soundstage is much wider, deeper and the imaging is equal if not better...The midrange and high end detail is where the DIY's really move ahead of the Studio's, I really can't think of a commercial speaker under $1200 I like better than these...sure I'm biased now, but it took alot of nerve for me to replace $900 and $1200 speakers with $250 worth of parts.

Warning, the DIY think is dreadfully addictive...I'm on my 3rd speaker project, and about to start my 2nd sub project. I don't think I've really "saved" any money, just learned a lot, picked up a relaxing, enjoyable hobby, and achieved much superior sound.

DIY is a great way to get the most for the least, but keep in mind I haven't designed any of these (that's next after the 15")...designing from scratch, the trial and error etc, would consume a bit more time...the DIY community is great and there's tons of info available though.

Good luck.

Kex,

Thanks for the info. If I went the route of building my own box could you recommend a website that would explain the needed dimensions (cubic feet) depending on the size driver I use. Also, would you use the Dayton MKIII or is there a different brand you prefer or would steer me towards? And in terms of sound is there much of a difference between a 12" and 15"? My room is 15' x 18' and it would be mostly used for HT.

Thanks

kexodusc
01-19-2005, 07:51 AM
All good questions...You can download a few design options by clicking "project ideas" on the woofer page at the PE website, or you can just copy the Titanic MKIII cabinet dimensions and build it yourself. If you're really keen, you could hit the PE forum and ask for some advice...there's lots of people who ask this same question for other woofers, and people would be glad to help you choose dimensions.

I would think for your room the 12" would be more than enough, but for the price, fun factor, and extra performance, you could go all the way with the 15"...the difference is about 10 dB max volume output, double the power, and the ability to go below 20 Hz vs. about 22 Hz in room. The 15" goes below 20 Hz and is tight and accurate. Check the DIY forums, I think Sealed did a review on the 15" a few months back here.

There's alot of guys who've built that and compare it to $2000-$3000 servo models and the latest and greatest popular internet retailers prime models....even if it falls short a bit, the price is right. As I said, my PW-2200 is outperformed , enough to warrant selling it and replacing it with the 12" MKIII. The 15" would be a massive upgrade, so that's what I'm doing.

Here's my take...if you build the 12" and love it, but still feel like you need a bit more, you could end up driving yourself crazy wishing you went with the 15". If you build the 15" and still aren't happy, you just have unrealistic expectations for DIY sub in this price range.

I can't say the MKIII's are the best woofers or best kit out there because I haven't heard them all, but in the last 14 months I have yet to find anything that's received as much praise from the knowledgeable DIY community and non DIY-ers who took the plunge (myself included). I know there's lots of popular kits out there, but these seem to stand out. The next step up in kits will cost considerably more. The option exists to design your own cabinet and elect to use a port (or not) and just use the woofer and plate amp, but the Kit's design is tested and proven. Dayton makes awesome drivers for the money, great value and solid performance. Good reputation among DIY-ers too, which means you can probably sell the sub, or the parts used if you ever get ambitious and want something more.

The only downside is the 15" will require more space and money...she ain't small.
When were you thinking of starting it? :)

mjon99
01-19-2005, 08:48 AM
I wasn't planning to do this anytime soon. Maybe with in the next year or so. I'll probably upgrade my mains or receiver first before I do this. If and when I do, I'll probably try to build my own cabinet so I can make it more pleasing to the eye instead of having large bland cube. Thanks for all your input.

jschaudel
01-25-2005, 07:07 PM
Bargainseeker,

You are either a salesman for SVS or you know what you are talking about :D

I am going to give the PB10 a shot; if I don't like it I can always send it back. SVS sells bettercables on their website. Should I go with these, or should I consider some other cables?

I am going to buy a new receiver. Any thoughts on one under $400. The room is 14x17 with a vaulted ceiling. Movies/Music is probably 50/50, but if I had to choose the sound of one over the other it would be music over movies.

I will go listen but thought you might have some good input on narrowing my choices.

Thanks.

bargainseeker
01-25-2005, 08:06 PM
Bargainseeker,

You are either a salesman for SVS or you know what you are talking about :D

I am going to give the PB10 a shot; if I don't like it I can always send it back. SVS sells bettercables on their website. Should I go with these, or should I consider some other cables?

I am going to buy a new receiver. Any thoughts on one under $400. The room is 14x17 with a vaulted ceiling. Movies/Music is probably 50/50, but if I had to choose the sound of one over the other it would be music over movies.

I will go listen but thought you might have some good input on narrowing my choices.

Thanks.Well, I am not a salesman for SVS nor do I have any other business relationship with them. I am just a happy customer who feels that SVS is a class act. I believe you will be happy with the PB10 once you get it setup correctly. If you don't already have them, I would strongly consider getting a Radio Shack SPL meter and Avia setup DVD. If I remember right, I ended up buying my Avia DVD from Amazon.com because they had a lower price at the time.

As to a subwoofer cable, I have never been big on exotic cables. However, subwoofer cables carry a low level signal that must be well shielded from electrical noise. Unlike other interconnects, subwoofer cables are often very long, which increases the likelihood of such noise occurring (the long wire acts as an antenna). So if you are planning a fairly short run from your receiver to your subwoofer, I think you could use a decent quality, modestly priced cable such as an NXG NX-0134 (http://www.hififorless.com/showProduct.php?productid=64923). I would also recommend a longer NXG cable for use while you are trying out different subwoofer locations. If you end up with your subwoofer a long way from your receiver, I would seriously consider one of the subwoofer cables offered by SVS.

For a receiver, do you want to buy locally or online? Also, are you willing to consider a factory refurbished receiver with a manufacturer's warranty or would you rather buy new?

shokhead
01-26-2005, 06:14 AM
Wait and look and you'll find a $1000 sub for 500 bucks somewhere.

Olivertmc
01-26-2005, 06:18 AM
Bargainseeker recommended the SVS PB10 about a week and a half ago. I received it this past friday and cannot believe how great it is. I think you'll be pleased with the results. I'm actually more impressed with its performance with respect to music than movies (not that it doesn't perform exceptionally well for both), the bass lines, kick drums and toms just seemed to "come alive" with the addition of the SVS. I was using the Energy S8.2 before, admittedly a small sub, but I still can't get over the effect the SVS has had on my audio enjoyment. Just beware, the thing is huge.

dean_martin
01-26-2005, 07:53 AM
Bargainseeker recommended the SVS PB10 about a week and a half ago. I received it this past friday and cannot believe how great it is. I think you'll be pleased with the results. I'm actually more impressed with its performance with respect to music than movies (not that it doesn't perform exceptionally well for both), the bass lines, kick drums and toms just seemed to "come alive" with the addition of the SVS. I was using the Energy S8.2 before, admittedly a small sub, but I still can't get over the effect the SVS has had on my audio enjoyment. Just beware, the thing is huge.

Olivertmc,

Have you completed your upgrades? If I remember correctly you had a budget of $1000 and decided to go with a 2channel amp (the Parasound) for your front right and left speakers and a new sub. Did everything turn out ok? Were you able to stay within your budget? Are you satisfied or are you now on a mission to upgrade everything?! Don't mean to pry - just curious as to whether you have a good report.

Olivertmc
01-26-2005, 08:53 AM
Dean_martin:

Good memory and thanks for the interest! I have completed my upgrade (and came in just under budget). I must say that I never thought I'd have a system I would be so happy with. Thanks so much for your help and recommendations. Once I connected the new amp and sub, I played one of my wife's favorite songs for her ("She will be Loved" by Maroon 5 - Our music tastes diverge completely) and she responded with "Wow, you have a really good stereo." After living together for 7 years, this was the first time she actually acknowledged that she could hear the quality of the sound. She usually just asks me "which sound is the bass again?"!

So, I'm really pleased and don't think I'll need to make any drastic changes for awhile. I drive a little faster on my way home from work so I can fit in a few more minutes of listening time, and want to revisit my entire cd collection to hear the difference.

dean_martin
01-26-2005, 12:42 PM
Congratulations! Sometimes first attempts at sound improvements don't work out. It looks like your upgraditis is in remission...for now.

Woochifer
01-26-2005, 05:51 PM
All good questions...You can download a few design options by clicking "project ideas" on the woofer page at the PE website, or you can just copy the Titanic MKIII cabinet dimensions and build it yourself. If you're really keen, you could hit the PE forum and ask for some advice...there's lots of people who ask this same question for other woofers, and people would be glad to help you choose dimensions.

I would think for your room the 12" would be more than enough, but for the price, fun factor, and extra performance, you could go all the way with the 15"...the difference is about 10 dB max volume output, double the power, and the ability to go below 20 Hz vs. about 22 Hz in room. The 15" goes below 20 Hz and is tight and accurate. Check the DIY forums, I think Sealed did a review on the 15" a few months back here.

Now you've piqued my interest in the PE Titanic kits. I'm curious more about how they would compare to the Adire Rava. When I started shopping around for a sealed sub in the under-$500 price range three years ago, my options at that time were pretty much limited to the Rava and the PE kit. I went with the Rava because it cost less than the 12" Titanic kit, and it came fully assembled with a veneered oak cabinet. Now, the number of sealed options in the under-$600 price range has increased a lot with models introduced in the last two years from B&W, Atlantic, Acoustic Visions, Rocket, and Martin Logan.

I can understand the appeal of the Titanic kit because it allows you to tailor the cabinet and/or port dimensions to whatever performance parameters you're looking for. But, looking at it point by point with the Rava, I'm curious as to the advantage of the Titanic.

Basically, the Titanic has a more powerful 500 watt amp that comes with a one channel parametric EQ, while the Rava uses a higher capacity driver. (Adire's website claims a higher swept volume, longer driver excursion, and higher SPL for the Shiva driver over the Titanic driver)

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/ShivaPageFrameText.htm

Basically, the Shiva driver and the plate amp used in the Rava would cost about $300 just for the parts. For the extra $100, the Rava throws in a veneered cabinet and assembly. I know that the plate amp that comes with the Titanic kit costs about $120 more than the amp that's in the Rava, but the cost difference between the Rava and the 12" Titanic kit is about $136.

I guess my question is what more does the Titanic kit offer over the Rava? The Rava is essentially a glorified DIY project culled together from well regarded parts and built to a Q alignment (0.67) that's slightly biased towards longer frequency extension but not too far off from the Butterworth alignment (.707) that is statistically closest to a flat response.

The Parts Express site doesn't say too much about the Titanic kit's tonal characteristics. Since it's a sealed box, I would be curious about its Q alignment. The ACI sealed subs are built to a Q alignment of 0.6, which is extends the frequency range and is commonly regarded as a more "musical" alignment. I also read somewhere that B&W's sealed subs have a Q alignment closer to 0.8, which is surprising because that tends to shorten the frequency extension and create a slight boost in the midbass.

I see a lot of recommendations for the Titanic kits, and I've been curious as to what it offers over the Rava despite a higher price and the need to assemble it.

jschaudel
01-26-2005, 06:10 PM
Thanks.

Receiver: yes, I would be willing to purchase a refurbished one on-line as long as the warranty was the same. I was looking at one site (don't remember which) some time ago and the refurbished unit (Denon) had an extremely short warranty. However, I don't know which sites a good and which are not.

kexodusc
01-26-2005, 06:39 PM
Wooch, my plane's about to land so I have to make this quick, but real quickly I've noticed the stats in the link you provide seem to refer to much older Titanic MKII driver...the xmax of the new 12" MK III is a whopping 1.87 cm (or 2-way 3.74 cm), much longer than the Shiva driver, and PE claims a max SPL of over 110 dB's vs the Rava's 105 dB's.
The Titanic moves more air, has lower response, more power, and higher SPL...Parametric EQ (is it one channel?) and it comes in ugly black.
What more could you want? :)
More tomorrow hopefully.

bargainseeker
01-27-2005, 09:33 AM
Thanks.

Receiver: yes, I would be willing to purchase a refurbished one on-line as long as the warranty was the same. I was looking at one site (don't remember which) some time ago and the refurbished unit (Denon) had an extremely short warranty. However, I don't know which sites a good and which are not.Please see this thread (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?p=69421#post69421) in the home theater forum for my response.

kexodusc
01-27-2005, 10:08 AM
Wooch, I've also confirmed that the Q alignment of the Titanic MKIII kits is 0.707...you could argue the real impact this produces, alot of subs seem to be going for higher Q's these days, the Q itself is meaningless, though, you have to take the parameters of the driver into consideration. My guess it was just an easy place for Vance Dickason to start.

The 12" driver produces a swept volume at 1.67 L by my calcs, though the Dayton driver measures only the effective radius of the driver, not sure if the Rava specs use the larger radius figure to boost the reported specs or not.

The 12" Dayton is the more efficient driver (not by much), but coupled with the larger amp I think you'd maintain see a bit less distortion at higher SPL...how much real world advantage this translates into is beyond me though, probably not much. It might actually be more of a benefit at lower SPL? I'm not really a sub guy, spend most of my time on crossovers and speaker cabinets.

Alot of would people argue you need the better (bigger) amp to take full advantage of the excursion both of these drivers...though I'm not sure utilizing full excursion capability is always necessary.

I've never heard the Rava personally, though I've heard of it often enough. It could be the better performing sub of the two, or even just a more affordable alternative that captures most of the performance at a better value...I know my parents 12" MKIII kit is noticeably lower, and leaner than my PW-2200 was in my room, but alot cheaper...I have high expectations for the 15" kit (almost double the surface area of the 12" and sweeping over 3 L, here I come)...

Thoughts?

mjon99
01-27-2005, 12:34 PM
Kex,
Let us know what you think of the 15" when you finish it.

Woochifer
01-27-2005, 02:23 PM
Wooch, I've also confirmed that the Q alignment of the Titanic MKIII kits is 0.707...you could argue the real impact this produces, alot of subs seem to be going for higher Q's these days, the Q itself is meaningless, though, you have to take the parameters of the driver into consideration. My guess it was just an easy place for Vance Dickason to start.

The 12" driver produces a swept volume at 1.67 L by my calcs, though the Dayton driver measures only the effective radius of the driver, not sure if the Rava specs use the larger radius figure to boost the reported specs or not.

The 12" Dayton is the more efficient driver (not by much), but coupled with the larger amp I think you'd maintain see a bit less distortion at higher SPL...how much real world advantage this translates into is beyond me though, probably not much. It might actually be more of a benefit at lower SPL? I'm not really a sub guy, spend most of my time on crossovers and speaker cabinets.

Alot of would people argue you need the better (bigger) amp to take full advantage of the excursion both of these drivers...though I'm not sure utilizing full excursion capability is always necessary.

I've never heard the Rava personally, though I've heard of it often enough. It could be the better performing sub of the two, or even just a more affordable alternative that captures most of the performance at a better value...I know my parents 12" MKIII kit is noticeably lower, and leaner than my PW-2200 was in my room, but alot cheaper...I have high expectations for the 15" kit (almost double the surface area of the 12" and sweeping over 3 L, here I come)...

Thoughts?

Very interesting indeed! Sounds like the MKIII driver's a nice step up over the Shiva, which would then justify its higher price. With the new driver specs, that answers my question about the differences between the two. The driver and amp used in that Titanic kit would alone cost about $440, while the Rava costs $400 fully assembled. I would expect and hope that a $540 kit can outperform the Rava, otherwise what's the point?

The Rava uses that Q=0.67 alignment and they modified the amp with both a rumble filter and an EQ circuit that's supposed to flatten out the response (I believe that the 250 watt amp used by Adire is a pretty generic design that just about every DIY sub supplier sells some version of). Choosing the Rava three years ago was a pretty easy choice, because it was pretty much the only option that matched what I was looking for (at that time, I did not consider DIY an option because I'd never owned a sub before and didn't want my first foray to incur more complications than there already were). Now, with more comparable choices out there, this is a great time for people looking for an affordable sealed sub option.

As far as your kit goes, have fun with it and let us know how it goes! But, just to muck things a bit more for your bout of upgradeitis, you should get a look at Adire's 15" Tumult driver. That thing has a linear excursion of 3.4 cm one way and Adire claims a swept volume of over 5 liters! Acoustic Visions is the only company I'm aware of that currently builds finished subs around the Tumult driver, and they start at $1,500 (the driver itself costs $500). See how long you can resist!

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/TumultPageFrameText.htm

kexodusc
01-27-2005, 05:51 PM
Wooch, what are you doing to me? Don't temp me!!!

I've got a 20 X 24 room that is nicely filled with decent bass by the PW-2200 I have now. I believe the Rava and 12" Titanic would be significant improvements, the 15" Titanic is overkill.
That Tumult monstrosity would likely get me in trouble with the neighbors. (that's my way of saying it's about 2.5 times too expensive).

You're right about sub options exploding...even commercial offerings (ported and sealed) have multiplied and become better and cheaper in the last few years. I'm not married to Dayton or the Titanics at all, if anyone's got a sub project idea under $600 or less they think is better I'd love to know. Unfortunately, I don't know how long I can hold out...I've got a buyer for the PW-2200 that'll cover most of the cost of this upgrade...must....resist...

Woochifer
01-27-2005, 06:11 PM
Wooch, what are you doing to me? Don't temp me!!!

I've got a 20 X 24 room that is nicely filled with decent bass by the PW-2200 I have now. I believe the Rava and 12" Titanic would be significant improvements, the 15" Titanic is overkill.
That Tumult monstrosity would likely get me in trouble with the neighbors. (that's my way of saying it's about 2.5 times too expensive).

You're right about sub options exploding...even commercial offerings (ported and sealed) have multiplied and become better and cheaper in the last few years. I'm not married to Dayton or the Titanics at all, if anyone's got a sub project idea under $600 or less they think is better I'd love to know. Unfortunately, I don't know how long I can hold out...I've got a buyer for the PW-2200 that'll cover most of the cost of this upgrade...must....resist...

Yeah, what was I thinking! That Tumult is for wusses.

If you REALLY want to be a menace to your neighborhood, get a look at Adire's Parthenon driver. This is the driver that with a simple 24" diaphragm can power down to 20 Hz at reference levels with no box or baffle. No one I'm aware of has built a practical application for this monstrous motor, but it seems geared for serious bragging rights. Adire claims that this motor is powerful enough to achieve a 12" stroke with 450 liters swept volume while driving a 48" diaphragm. So, if you got a $3,000 DIY project coming up, this has got your name all over it!

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/ParthenonPageFrameText.htm

Jack
01-27-2005, 06:36 PM
Kexodusc, Wooch, etc. I'm looking at the Titanic 10" kit and have a question. The ONLY space in my living room for the sub is only 15"x15"x21", hence the 10" and not the 12" enclosure. My question...How will the tight spacing affect the sound of the sub, if at all? It will only be about 6" from the back wall, very close to touching the A/V rack and very close to a 6 inch "quasi" wall on the other side. The front will, of course, face the sitting area. As you can probably tell from my question, I have no experience with sub placement, etc. I searched on this site and could not find the answer, and since you were on the topic, I decided against starting a new thread. Any and all info would be greatly appreciated. BTW, this will be my first attempt atany type of DIY, but the reports about the quality and ease of construction of the Titanic kits has me interested. Thanks in advance for any help you may offer....Jack

kexodusc
01-28-2005, 04:37 AM
Wooch is probably far more qualified to give a meaningful response in the area of sub placement. If you're stuck with one suitable position for a sub, I would still argue you can make do and enjoy a sub. You will probably get a boosted response having the sub so close to walls, but other than that, I can't offer you much help on this front without actually measuring the sub in the room. You might not really be able to predict much before you try the sub in your room.

As for the 15"X15"X21"...you can totally do a 12" in that...the 1 cubic ft cabinets used in the 10 Titanic kit are suited for 12" woofers as well and can be purchases separately with no pre-routered holes...take a look at the "sealed subwoofer" recommendation for an alternative approach to the Titanic kits...it uses the 14"X14"X14" cabinet in a sealed box...I don't know the parameters exactly, but I have little doubt you'd get usuable bass into the high 20's...using the Parametric eq would probably further enhance that...there's a lot of guys on the PE forums that have reported excellent results in this compact design, and apparently they're especially good for music applications. You'll need a plunge router and jig to cut out a 12" hole for the driver, and probably a drill if the other holes aren't pre-drilled. Just an option.

kexodusc
01-28-2005, 04:48 AM
Yeah, what was I thinking! That Tumult is for wusses.

If you REALLY want to be a menace to your neighborhood, get a look at Adire's Parthenon driver. This is the driver that with a simple 24" diaphragm can power down to 20 Hz at reference levels with no box or baffle. No one I'm aware of has built a practical application for this monstrous motor, but it seems geared for serious bragging rights. Adire claims that this motor is powerful enough to achieve a 12" stroke with 450 liters swept volume while driving a 48" diaphragm. So, if you got a $3,000 DIY project coming up, this has got your name all over it!

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/ParthenonPageFrameText.htm


Okay, I'm selling me right kidney on ebay now...any takers...it's in near mint shape, has some minor wear and tear, but is far better condition than my liver. Never driven hard, from a non-smoking home...selling to finance home theater upgrade.

Maybe some day, Wooch, this looks more like something Sir Terrence would use for center channel or something...I have a nut bar Uncle that has a 31" Fostex driver in his subwoofer that cost more than any speakers I've ever owned. Just when I get feeling good about my system, I pay him a visit and get served a slice of humble pie.

There must be a point where a subwoofer becomes overkill in a given room...I don't know where that is, but I'm pretty I'll be close enough.

46minaudio
01-28-2005, 06:38 AM
Kex and wooch,These drivers are based on adires xbl2 technolgy..The 15 does not have as much xmass as the 15 tumalt ,but its a $170 less expensive..
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/Avalanche%2018.htm
Here are some graphs for the sealed 18...
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/Avalanche%2018%20sealed%20graph.htm
Wooch if you ever want to try DYI, give me a call I will build you a box with driver cutout for the cost of the MDF and shipping...(yea I love building this stuff).

kexodusc
01-28-2005, 07:17 AM
46minaudio: mmm...yummy, $300 for the driver, this is a bit more reasonable...Any recommendations on a good plate amp to go with it? I think the 1000 watt bad boy at PE is still a good buy. They seem to recommend the standard 0.707 Q alignment, but a small 2.2 cubic ft. With a 15.5" diameter that's kind of an odd shaped box. Not really that big, though...all right, you've got me interested...

Wooch: Let's do it...46minaudio's given you a pretty good offer...MDF is cheap, and you could probably ship it flat and glue it yourself. Next we'll get you trading the Studio's in....You're going to need a table saw, dado blades, a plunge router, belt sander, orbital sander, a soldering iron, and of course a spectrum analyzer (can't build without testing)...I'd give you my kidney, but I'll need it.

Give in to your feelings, join the Dark Side...

46minaudio
01-28-2005, 11:06 AM
46minaudio: mmm...yummy, $300 for the driver, this is a bit more reasonable...Any recommendations on a good plate amp to go with it? I think the 1000 watt bad boy at PE is still a good buy. They seem to recommend the standard 0.707 Q alignment, but a small 2.2 cubic ft. With a 15.5" diameter that's kind of an odd shaped box. Not really that big, though...all right, you've got me interested...

Wooch: Let's do it...46minaudio's given you a pretty good offer...MDF is cheap, and you could probably ship it flat and glue it yourself. Next we'll get you trading the Studio's in....You're going to need a table saw, dado blades, a plunge router, belt sander, orbital sander, a soldering iron, and of course a spectrum analyzer (can't build without testing)...I'd give you my kidney, but I'll need it.

Give in to your feelings, join the Dark Side...
I bought the 500 watt version with a single band PEQ for 198$ while on the deal of the day..You think it will be under powered with the standdard .707Q.This will replace my HSU VTF 2..Also I just finished a sub using a Dayton 8" DVC in a 1.5 cubic ft box tuned to 30 hz and one of the Audio source plate amps MCM had on sale.I used a 1/2 inch round over on all edges then sprayed it with truck bedliner spray..

kexodusc
01-28-2005, 11:21 AM
I bought the 500 watt version with a single band PEQ for 198$ while on the deal of the day..You think it will be under powered with the standdard .707Q.This will replace my HSU VTF 2...
Sorry not sure I'm following (been a long week)...which woofer did you mate in what size cabinet to the 500 watt plate amp?

What were your thoughts on the VTF-2? I wasn't all that amazed with mine compared to other offerings, but I like it just fine.

You've definitely got me second guessing my choice of subs now....
I've got a bit of time, still have the 6th and 7th speakers to finish, as well as a new cabinet for my center channel. It's tough with a job that has me on the road 40% of the time...
Great hobby though, I've learned more in the last year about audio in general than my previous 25 put together.

46minaudio
01-28-2005, 11:52 AM
Sorry not sure I'm following (been a long week)...which woofer did you mate in what size cabinet to the 500 watt plate amp?

What were your thoughts on the VTF-2? I wasn't all that amazed with mine compared to other offerings, but I like it just fine.

You've definitely got me second guessing my choice of subs now....
I've got a bit of time, still have the 6th and 7th speakers to finish, as well as a new cabinet for my center channel. It's tough with a job that has me on the road 40% of the time...
Great hobby though, I've learned more in the last year about audio in general than my previous 25 put together.
Sorry Kex..I havent mateded the 500 watt amp with any thing yet..I was wondering if the amp would be to small for the Avalanch 18 with .707 alignment..The VTF2 is what it is.For the size IMO it is a outstanding preformer.There are some room peaks that I hope to fix with the single band peq on the pe plate amp...And yep its time to upgrade...I cannot decide between the 15 or the 18..ANY thoughts on either...

kexodusc
01-28-2005, 12:20 PM
Sorry Kex..I havent mateded the 500 watt amp with any thing yet..I was wondering if the amp would be to small for the Avalanch 18 with .707 alignment..The VTF2 is what it is.For the size IMO it is a outstanding preformer.There are some room peaks that I hope to fix with the single band peq on the pe plate amp...And yep its time to upgrade...I cannot decide between the 15 or the 18..ANY thoughts on either...

46minaudio, I couldn't find any sensitivity/efficiency specs for these drivers, but the site seems to imply you can get by with 500 watts. Intuitively, I'd be a hesitant to buy a 18" driver and then mate it to a 500 watt amp, but what do I know? I think you can get buy with the 15" and 500 watts, well enough...but I don't really know. How loud do you like your bass? I'm sure 500 watts would be enough for alot of people...but as your demand for earthquake rumbles increases, that 18" woofer is gonna want lots of juice at 25 Hz and below...I'd hate to have a great driver and not enough power to drive it...you know what that leads too...I think I'd rather have more power than not enough.

The 1000 amp might be a bit overkill for the 15" though, as it is with the Titanic kits. I would think if you're careful enough, you can go either way. My PW-2200 only has 400 watts, I don't have it maxed out, and it does ok in my room right now.

But bigger always = better, right? ;)