Is there any way to use a non-phono input for phono?

[donbryce]

I've ordered a JVC surround receiver, due in Saturday, and I opted to buy it despite it's lack of a phono input (I like to spin vinyl sometimes). The next model up for an additional $100.00 had a phono input, but that's too much to pay. I decided to continue to use my stereo receiver for phono with a switch box to A/B the main speakers between the receiver and the surround unit. However,
- why can't I use a tape or aux input for phono, technically, and
- what needs to be added to make this work, if it can be done?

[markw]

The good news is yes, you can use those additional high level inputs for a phono input.

The bad news isthatyou'll need to purchase an additional stage of amplification to bing up the output of a phono cartridge (in the millivolt range) up to the level that a line level input can jhandle (1 volt+).

At the low end, they are available from Radio Shack and, I believe, places like parts express and such for as little as $20 or so but they can also cost in the thousands of dollars.

Search on "Phono preamps".

You may have been better off opting pay out the extra $100 for the next unit up the line. I'm sure there were more differences than just a phono stage. Can you still upgrade?

[Woochifer]

Phono inputs differ from standard line level inputs in two major areas: 1) phono cartridges require a gain stage to get the signal up to line level, hence the need for a separate jack, and 2) vinyl records and phono cartridges follow the RIAA equalization curve, and the phono stage needs to include that equalization for the records to sound right. Using a line level component such as a CD player on a phono input will result in distorted sound, and plugging a turntable into a line level input will produce extremely low level sound with strange sounding tonal characteristics.

You can remedy this by getting an outboard phono preamp and plugging that into a line level input. I believe that Radio Shack sells them for $30. Other higher performance models are also available from high end audio stores or online vendors like Audio Advisor.

[donbryce]

Thanks very much for the info. I thought that was the answer, so now I have 2 choices: Use the switch I have and keep the receiver, or get a pre-amp to modify the phono signal appropriately. I may already have one somewhere, too. As for the upgrade, no, I made that decision when I ordered the JVC.

[kelsci]

Donbryce; what are you going to do with the stereo receiver. If that unit is not going to be used for a 2nd system, leave the stereo receiver switched in phono mode. Run two audio interconnects from TAPE OUT of the stereo receiver to your choice of an AUX input on the JVC. You need only turn on the stereo receiver when you plan to use PHONO and concurrently switch the AUX input on the JVC when you want to listen to vinyl. If you are using the stereo receiver in another room, then you must go with a separate phono preamp as mentioned above. That would have to be plugged into your choice AUX input in the JVC to play your vinyl.

[Geoffcin]

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=52928&item=2211550536

Was over $370 new, now $10.

[donbryce]

Thanks Kelsci, great idea. Over Xmas, I found the switch and ran the outputs from the new and old receiver into it, then from the switch to the sub, then from the sub to the front L/R spkrs. That way, I can use the sub with either surround or records. But I like your idea better, since it would allow me to connect the sub with the 'sub-out' RCA (let's me use the surround remote to control it), as well as letting me retire the old receiver remote. Your solution effectively would employ the old receiver as a 'pre-amp' to the tape input of the surround receiver, right?

[kelsci]

Donbryce; The idea here is to use something which in this case is the stereo receiver instead of having it sit around and collect dust. Many new digital suround receivers do not come with a phono input. This of course means that if you want to listen to vinyl you are going to need an outside phono preamplifier and an empty aux input on your digital receiver. Some companies still make a phono preamplifier of vary degrees of cost. In place of that, if you have a older stereo preamplifier (like the Dynaco Pat 4, Pat 5, Adcom and a host of others that might still be around) or a stereo receiver, you would connect the plugs and ground wire from the turntable to the above mentioned to the phono inputs and connect two analogue connections with two INTERCONNECT CABLES for left and right channels to the above TAPE
OUTPUTS and connect the other ends of the interconnect cables to a favored analogue input of your digital receiver. When playing vinyl, you must have that older stuff's switches set to PHONO so they can process the turntable's vinyl records thru their PHONO PREAMPLIFIER SECTION and output that section through the tape outputs. You will choose on your digital receiver a designation that receives that processed phono signal. Usually, that would be an auxillary input. Your digital receiver must be on and in this case set to that auxillary input chosen. You should be hearing your vinyl records play. If you are deploying a sub on your digital receiver that is activated when you are in the analogue domain choices, your vinyl records bass response will come through the sub. Remember that at this point your digital receiver is the DOMINANT control device of your audio system.

[donbryce]

Donbryce; The idea here is to use something which in this case is the stereo receiver instead of having it sit around and collect dust. Many new digital suround receivers do not come with a phono input. This of course means that if you want to listen to vinyl you are going to need an outside phono preamplifier and an empty aux input on your digital receiver....if you have ...a stereo receiver, you would connect the plugs and ground wire from the turntable to the above mentioned to the phono inputs and connect two analogue connections with two INTERCONNECT CABLES for left and right channels to the above TAPE OUTPUTS and connect the other ends of the interconnect cables to a favored analogue input of your digital receiver. When playing vinyl, you must have that older stuff's switches set to PHONO so they can process the turntable's vinyl records thru their PHONO PREAMPLIFIER SECTION and output that section through the tape outputs. You will choose on your digital receiver a designation that receives that processed phono signal. Usually, that would be an auxillary input. Your digital receiver must be on and in this case set to that auxillary input chosen. You should be hearing your vinyl records play.....
Well, sorry to be so late getting back, but I tried your suggestion and no sound. I ran right and left channel RCA cables from the 'Tape Play (out)' plugs on the old receiver to the 'Tape In' plugs on the surround receiver. The turntable is connected to the Phono R/L channel inputs on the old receiver, the mode switch on the old receiver is 'Phono', and the mode sw on the surround is set to 'Tape'. Speakers are connected, all settings on the surround should be as required, because all other inputs function (CD, DVD, etc.) when the proper input source/mode is selected.
Should I reconnect the 'tape out' from the old receiver to the 'tape in' on the tape deck, and run the 'tape out' from the tape deck to the 'tape in' on the surround receiver? I'd have to have the tape deck 'on' to play records then, right?
Any idea what is wrong here? Oh, and I realize I should try this and post results rather than theorize, but I still don't see what is wrong with your original idea.

[markw]

0) Turn off both receivers.

1) Hook up your TT to your OLD receiver as you always have.

2) Set it's input to "Phono" and turn it's volume all the way down.

3) Run an interconnect from your OLD receiver's "Tape Out" to one of your NEW receiver's Auxillary inputs.

4) Turn on OLD receiver.

5) Play a record.

6) Turn your NEW receiver.

7) Select auxilllary input into which you plugged the interconnect from the old receiver.

8) Listen to the music.

[kelsci]

Markw; I could not have said it better myself and that is the darn truth. I cannot conceive why Donbryce ran into a problem of no sound to begin with. Thanks. Kelsci

[donbryce]

0) Turn off both receivers.
OK
1) Hook up your TT to your OLD receiver as you always have.
Did that
2) Set it's input to "Phono" and turn it's volume all the way down.
Did that
3) Run an interconnect from your OLD receiver's "Tape Out" to one of your NEW receiver's Auxillary inputs.
I ran left/right channel RCA's from old recvr 'tape out' to new recvr 'tape in'
4) Turn on OLD receiver.
OK
5) Play a record.
OK
6) Turn your NEW receiver.
Done
7) Select auxilllary input into which you plugged the interconnect from the old receiver.
Selected 'tape'
8) Listen to the music.
Can't. No sound.

[kelsci]

Donbryce; I am online at this moment. I saw you followed markw's advice which to me is correct as I know it for many years. There has to be a peculiarity occurring so I am trying to think.

Lets look at the old receiver first. Some units like older Yamahas had two selector switches. One selected the source you wanted to hear. They also had a TAPE OUT selector switch as well which outputted a selected signal regardless of what you were listening too. I do not know if this is the case we are dealing with here, but it it is, the tape out selector switch would have to be set to PHONO as well.

There are many units where the in and out jacks for the tape have such a variety of names that could confuse someone which set of outputs were the tape outputs and tape inputs. It is a possiblity that your interconnects on the stereo receiver might belong in the outer set of jacks.

On your new receiver, you have also chosen TAPE. If possible, choose another aux input other than tape and see what happens. If you have the manuals to both receivers, I would take another look as to what the manual describes the functions of the tape jacks. I am no rookie and as such I have had to examine manuals to be sure I had the wires in the right jacks regardless of what they seemed to mean on the back of the chassis of the receivers.

[jeskibuff]

8) Listen to the music.
Can't. No sound.
Maybe your new receiver isn't configured correctly? I have to tell my processor what input to use from the back panel when I press a button on the front panel. For instance, when I press "CD", I could set it up to get the CD input from either regular analog inputs, one of two optical digital inputs, or one of two coaxial digital inputs. If you have "TAPE" incorrectly configured, maybe it's expecting to find the signal on an input that you haven't connected anything to?

Here's something else you can try. Do you have ANYTHING else ANALOG connected to your new receiver now, like a cassette deck or the analog inputs of a CD player? If that connection is working when you play that device, unplug it and plug in the RCA connections leading to the TAPE OUT of your old receiver.

Are there other outputs on the back of your old receiver such as REC OUT, TAPE LOOP or DIRECT OUT? I have a preamp that will not output to the back panel jacks if there are headphones plugged in.

Just trying to think of all the possibilities here.

[donbryce]

Thanks to both of you for the kind attention. I'm at work right now, and when I get home, I'll look at and try a few things and repost the results. For now, the old receiver has none of the selection options you describe, so maybe my wires are incorrect...to be continued

[jeskibuff]

Here's another idea for you. You know your CD/DVD player works fine, so disconnect the digital connection and use RCA connectors to send the ANALOG output of the CD/DVD player to your TAPE IN jacks on your NEW receiver. If you still don't get any sound, try a different input until you hear something. That may help you to find a working input. Then disconnect the CD and connect the old receiver's TAPE OUT/REC OUT connection to that working input. If it still doesn't work, that means you have a problem with the OLD receiver. You can narrow down the problem with this method.

[markw]

Perchance, is there another set of plugs labled "Tape Rec" or "Tape Record"?

If so, try that one.

[donbryce]

OK, I did some fiddling last night with the connections. Please remember that I'm not too familiar with the technology, so I did make a few dumb-ass mistakes.
First of all, the plugs on the back of the old receiver for tape are marked 'REC' and 'PLAY', period. I assumed PLAY meant OUT. This explains one thing wrong, since I now see the REC plugs are in the old receiver manual connected to the tape deck REC (INPUT) plugs. So, I connected the TAPE IN (PLAY) plugs on the new recvr to the REC plugs on the old recvr. Bad news is pushing the TAPE source select button didn't do anything.
Good news, and to keep this short, is that connecting these to the TAPE OUT (REC) plugs on the new recvr gets me LP playing from this recvr. But, get this, only when I select CD as the source! The CD player is already plugged into the separate CD inputs of the surround recvr. And, when CD is selected, I can simultaneously play a CD and a record, with both coming from the front speakers at the same time! Interesting.
So, I have bumbled my way to a solution, and can now control the sub volume from the surround remote, because now I can connect the sub-out low level lead from the surround receiver to the sub, instead of running it from the speaker leads (had to do this before to use the sub with records).
I plan to do some more experimenting this weekend, because this just doesn't sound like the right set up. May have something to do with the source selection setup on the surround receiver, which I'm just getting familiar with now.
If no one minds, I'll follow up with more results, and will monitor this thread as well. Or, if you guys want, I'll butt the h*ll out. Thanks again anyway for the input. I'm not a quick study of this either, so thanks for your patience too!.

[donbryce]

Here's another idea for you. You know your CD/DVD player works fine, so disconnect the digital connection and use RCA connectors to send the ANALOG output of the CD/DVD player to your TAPE IN jacks on your NEW receiver. If you still don't get any sound, try a different input until you hear something. That may help you to find a working input. Then disconnect the CD and connect the old receiver's TAPE OUT/REC OUT connection to that working input. If it still doesn't work, that means you have a problem with the OLD receiver. You can narrow down the problem with this method.
I tried running the CD player into the tape in, and it played for about 5 secs, then cut out (?). I reconnected the CD player into the CD input, then tried the tape rec on the old receiver into the tape in on the new, per original suggestion(s) above. Now it works! I might have 'fixed' something in the settings, though, last night, (to get it to recognize the source)but hey, this confirms original ideas from kelsci and markw. Thanx again.

[jeskibuff]

Good news, and to keep this short, is that connecting these to the TAPE OUT (REC) plugs on the new recvr gets me LP playing from this recvr. But, get this, only when I select CD as the source!
Well, that's not REALLY good news. To me, it sounds like you've got an output connected to another output, which may explain why you hear sound when you have "CD" selected. If it's still connected like this, DISCONNECT it now!

It might help to be a little more specific. If you could, answer these questions:
What's the model number of the new receiver? What's the brand and model of the old receiver? What equipment do you currently have hooked up to the new receiver? Be specific and detailed...such as "optical cable runs from CD player into OPTICAL 1 on the JVC". Are/were you using digital outputs into your new receiver from your CD/DVD player or other digital sources (satellite,cable box,etc)?

On the old receiver, you should be plugged into the "REC" connectors. The "PLAY" connectors are an input to the old receiver, so you don't want to use those. The "REC" connectors are outputs that should have your desired output of the turntable signal already processed by your old receiver's phono stage.
<hr>
After reading through the posts again, I think the problem all along likely has been with the use of the "PLAY" connection, as this should be the OUTPUT of a tape deck coming INTO the old receiver. You wouldn't be getting any signal off that connection to feed your new receiver. The REC connectors would do the trick, but DON'T plug them into the "TAPE OUT" connectors on your new receiver! Use "TAPE IN", "AUX", "TUNER" or any other analog input.

Also, was it KELSCI or MARKW who suggested that you turn down the volume on your old receiver? That's a good idea, but a better one may be turning off the speaker connections altogether if you have the capability to do so. Many old receivers had front panel buttons to select "A" or "B" speaker connections. If you have such buttons, just make sure that neither "A" nor "B" buttons are pushed in, or if it's a knob control, just switch it to "OFF".