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jocko_nc
01-06-2005, 06:32 PM
Hey all. New member here...

I have always enjoyed music, much more so in the past, but I contine to do so. I bought a set of Vandersteen 2ce's when they were first released back in 1991. Hooked up to my vintage Carver amp, it made for respectable sound. I still have the stuff, it has served me so well all these years. Here we are, 2005, and the wife has finally had enough with my big, ugly-*&^ speakers. She wants to remodel and cannot stand floor standing loudspeakers for purely asthetic reasons. She wants me to cave and allow her to do something different. We are looking at an HDTV (probably a DLP) so it is time for a change.

Personally, I much prefer two channels. I like clarity and depth. I like to hear the instruments and the recording, even with heavy rock. Honestly, I hate movie soundtracks. the engineering is all punch and seems overdone. There is no depth at all, all I hear is 50 different tracks laid on top of each other. Digital surround destroys realism. Maybe I have odd ears, but that is the way I hear it.

The wife's friends all have surround sound systems, with satellites or even built-ins. She feels my Vandersteens are an albatross around her stylistic neck. I hate tell her that those surround systems sound like crap. Not that is matters, she could care less how they sound.

Is there a happy medium? A satellite system or something that sounds more like a Vandersteen (or others of the ilk?) yet fits modern asthetics? $1200.00 or so. Let's hear some names. Man, I hate to dump one set of $1200.00 speakers for another set of $1200.00 speakers just for the looks. That makes a lot of sense. I don't see how a satellite is going to deliver the image and phase in the mid-low spectrum that I am used to. Every time I turn them on, am I going to be ill? ???. What are my options? Is the situation hopeless, a two channel guy stuck in a Dolby 5.1 world?

I could easily add a three channel amp, a center speaker, and two rears for home theater, to go with the new TV.

Recommendations?

Thanks,

jocko

bargainseeker
01-06-2005, 07:29 PM
I'm not clear if your $1200 budget includes a subwoofer or not. If it does, you may want to consider this combo package (http://www.plasmadocs.com/v-web/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=196) at plasmadocs.com. You can get 5 Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170.html) bookshelf speakers and a SVS PB10-ISD (http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb10_isd.htm) subwoofer for $1179. If you want even smaller satellites, the Ascend Acoustics HTM-200 (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/htm200/htm200.html) speakers are quite good as well and would cost you $1039 for 5 of them and the same subwoofer. Plasmadocs has an additional $25 coupon on these combinations right now as well (coupon code htfaasvscombo).

Reviews on the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 speakers are here (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/ascendacoustics_cbm170.htm) and here (http://www.audioreview.com/speakers/main-speaker/Ascend%20Acoustics/PRD_125308_1594crx.aspx). Ascend Acoustics has links to additional reviews on their website here (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/reviews/proreviews.html). Reviews on the SVS PB10-ISD subwoofer are here (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/svs-pb10-subwoofer-10-2004.html) and here (http://audioreview.com/PRD_326151_2741crx.aspx).

jasmit
01-06-2005, 07:35 PM
Compromise -- that's what marriage is all about, right?

I don't have alot of experience with those small satellite speakers; I've heard a few and really wouldn't recommend them. As much as you are used to and like your Vandersteens, I think you would be very disappointed in any speaker with less than a seven inch woofer.

If your wife would like to remodel and wants to end up with something like a built-in entertainment center, I have a suggestion which, IMO would be a fair compromise and would result in the sound you are looking for. Paradigm Reference Studio 40 v.3's. They are small enough to fit on a shelf in an entertainment center yet large enough to get you the full sound that you need. Paradigm is an excellent company with a sterling reputation for producing a well-built speaker that give you more than your money's worth in terms of sound. I think that your wife would find them acceptable because they are nice looking speakers -- they are designed to perform their best with the grills on so if your wife doesn't want to look at woofers and tweeters, they would be perfect. They have an MSRP of $1,200 a pair, but most any Paradigm dealer will give you 10 - 15% off; that would more than pay the state tax due. Your new DLP HDTV would fit nicely into an entertainment center built into a wall too.

I have a similar set-up in my recently built home -- a custom, cherry wood, built-in entertainment center that spans an 11' of a 17' wall (the corner fireplace takes up the rest of the wall) in our family room. I don't have the 40's; I have Paradigm's Studio 20's. They're smaller and a little less obtrusive. While they sound great, they're not as full sounding as the 40's and after the Vandersteens, I think you'll want that fuller sound.

But, if for some reason, the 40's are too big, you could consider the 20's. Or, another that (IMO) sounds great and is smaller than the Paradigm Studio 40's is B&W's 705. The 705's are a little more expensive (MSRP of $1,500 a pair) but with a discount, you could probably get them for around $1300. Not only do they sound great, but they are great looking.

Now, there will be quite a few audiophiles that will tell you that you should never place bookshelf speakers in cabinetry; that the sound will be greatly degraded. I must say that my speakers sound every bit as good as they did in the several hi-fi stores where I auditioned them. Mine sit on the base cabinet portion of the entertainment center (no shelf rattle) and they are positioned as far forward as possible (baffles are clear of cabinet walls, etc.) I might add that I had great fun designing my our cabinetry.

Of course, Paradigm and B&W aren't the only companies that make speakers that would be good candidates for you in your current situation. There are alot of great sounding speakers that look good and should meet the WAF. Good luck!

Woochifer
01-06-2005, 08:45 PM
I have always enjoyed music, much more so in the past, but I contine to do so. I bought a set of Vandersteen 2ce's when they were first released back in 1991. Hooked up to my vintage Carver amp, it made for respectable sound. I still have the stuff, it has served me so well all these years. Here we are, 2005, and the wife has finally had enough with my big, ugly-*&^ speakers. She wants to remodel and cannot stand floor standing loudspeakers for purely asthetic reasons. She wants me to cave and allow her to do something different. We are looking at an HDTV (probably a DLP) so it is time for a change.

Oh boy, time to panic! Hmmm, HDTV but you trade in your speakers in the process. Unfortunately, the Vandys are a somewhat unique speaker in how they sound. A lot of people love them to the point that no other speaker will suffice, while others just hate them. When I auditioned them, they were very perplexing and overall they were frustrating because they did so many things extraordinarily well and sounded bizarre in other ways. Vandersteen touts their time and phase accuracy, and not a whole lot of speaker companies design their speakers like Vandersteen. The other manufacturers that come to mind with a similar approach to time and phase coherency are Thiel and the now defunct Dunlavy.

Thiel makes a bookshelf model with a similar steeped baffle and first-order crossover that you see in the Vandys. Where it differs is that it uses metal drivers, and the tweeter and midrange drivers are in a single coaxial assembly, which is actually how Vandersteen designs their exceptionally well matched center speakers.

Unfortunately, the PCS bookshelf model costs $3,000 a pair. Might be out of your price range, but you might want to give it a listen if you're looking for a sound similar to your Vandys. The other speakers out there will likely sound very different.

Other bookshelf speakers that you should look at , aside from B&W and Paradigm, include Dynaudio, Totem, Von Schweikert, Definitive Technology, Sonus Faber, and Vienna Acoustics. All of them have attractive wood veneers available that should satisfy the decor requirements.

Another option that you can look at is on-wall speakers, which are currently the fastest growing market segment because they're designed to visually complement flat panel HDTVs. The Vienna Acoustics Schonbergs and Martin Logan Frescos can mount right onto the wall and fit in with any decor. The MLs go for around $2,000 a pair, while the Viennas range from $1,000 to $2,500 a pair. (see below) The only disadvantage of these speakers is that they don't have a lot of bass extension. Of course, you could compensate by adding a subwoofer, and manufacturers like Sunfire (designed by Bob Carver), REL, and Velodyne make small 8" subwoofers capable of delivering tremendous amounts of bass.

http://www.martinlogan.com/images/fresco_zoom1.jpg

http://www.theperfectvision.com/newsletter/tpv49/images/vienna_main_prod.jpg


Personally, I much prefer two channels. I like clarity and depth. I like to hear the instruments and the recording, even with heavy rock. Honestly, I hate movie soundtracks. the engineering is all punch and seems overdone. There is no depth at all, all I hear is 50 different tracks laid on top of each other. Digital surround destroys realism. Maybe I have odd ears, but that is the way I hear it.

Actually, if you hear multichannel music, there's a lot more clarity and depth than the two-channel versions. You have to get the setup and positioning right, and to get the most benefit you should also voice match the speakers. When done right, multichannel gives you depth perception and solidity of imaging beyond any two-channel system I've ever heard. Also, by spreading the sound elements across five channels, rather than squeezing them into two channels, that actually helps the coherency and clarity. 50 different tracks squeezed into two channels presents more audible issues than 50 tracks spread into five channels.


Is there a happy medium? A satellite system or something that sounds more like a Vandersteen (or others of the ilk?) yet fits modern asthetics? $1200.00 or so. Let's hear some names. Man, I hate to dump one set of $1200.00 speakers for another set of $1200.00 speakers just for the looks. That makes a lot of sense. I don't see how a satellite is going to deliver the image and phase in the mid-low spectrum that I am used to. Every time I turn them on, am I going to be ill? ???. What are my options? Is the situation hopeless, a two channel guy stuck in a Dolby 5.1 world?

If you're trying to trade a PAIR of $1,200 speakers for a SET of five speakers for the same budget, then of course you won't get comparable quality. If you set up something with high quality bookshelfs around that $1,200/pair budget, then you can get comparable quality. The Vandys are known for their imaging, and not a lot of speakers out there, at any price, can match them in that area. But, typically bookshelf models will image better than their floorstanding counterparts, and have fewer issues with cabinet resonance.

Believe me, multichannel can add immensely to the listening experience, but it's a more complicated to get it right since you're now dealing with five speakers. You have to level match the speakers, use delay to compensate for any differences in distance between the speakers, properly position them, and use speakers with comparable timbre. Once you get it right though, the results speak for themselves.

Woochifer
01-06-2005, 08:51 PM
there will be quite a few audiophiles that will tell you that you should never place bookshelf speakers in cabinetry; that the sound will be greatly degraded. I must say that my speakers sound every bit as good as they did in the several hi-fi stores where I auditioned them. Mine sit on the base cabinet portion of the entertainment center (no shelf rattle) and they are positioned as far forward as possible (baffles are clear of cabinet walls, etc.) I might add that I had great fun designing my our cabinetry.

Of course, Paradigm and B&W aren't the only companies that make speakers that would be good candidates for you in your current situation. There are alot of great sounding speakers that look good and should meet the WAF. Good luck!

Entertainment cabinets can do a lot of things to the sound, none of them good. If you're using the Paradigm Studio v.3 series, then you lucked out because Paradigm repositioned the port to the front of the speaker when they redesigned the Studio series. With rear firing ports, the cabinet becomes part of the speaker body and could adversely affect the bass coherency. Keeping the baffles forward of the cabinet edges is a good step towards minimizing the negative effects, but having free air inside of an enclosure interacting with the speaker cabinet will still have some effect on the sound. It's a compromise, but if you're happy with the sound, then there's no fault in that.

RGA
01-06-2005, 09:49 PM
Hey all. New member here...

I have always enjoyed music, much more so in the past, but I contine to do so. I bought a set of Vandersteen 2ce's when they were first released back in 1991. Hooked up to my vintage Carver amp, it made for respectable sound. I still have the stuff, it has served me so well all these years. Here we are, 2005, and the wife has finally had enough with my big, ugly-*&^ speakers. She wants to remodel and cannot stand floor standing loudspeakers for purely asthetic reasons. She wants me to cave and allow her to do something different. We are looking at an HDTV (probably a DLP) so it is time for a change.

Personally, I much prefer two channels. I like clarity and depth. I like to hear the instruments and the recording, even with heavy rock. Honestly, I hate movie soundtracks. the engineering is all punch and seems overdone. There is no depth at all, all I hear is 50 different tracks laid on top of each other. Digital surround destroys realism. Maybe I have odd ears, but that is the way I hear it.

The wife's friends all have surround sound systems, with satellites or even built-ins. She feels my Vandersteens are an albatross around her stylistic neck. I hate tell her that those surround systems sound like crap. Not that is matters, she could care less how they sound.

Is there a happy medium? A satellite system or something that sounds more like a Vandersteen (or others of the ilk?) yet fits modern asthetics? $1200.00 or so. Let's hear some names. Man, I hate to dump one set of $1200.00 speakers for another set of $1200.00 speakers just for the looks. That makes a lot of sense. I don't see how a satellite is going to deliver the image and phase in the mid-low spectrum that I am used to. Every time I turn them on, am I going to be ill? ???. What are my options? Is the situation hopeless, a two channel guy stuck in a Dolby 5.1 world?

I could easily add a three channel amp, a center speaker, and two rears for home theater, to go with the new TV.

Recommendations?

Thanks,

jocko

Yes I have yet to hear too many happy medium systems - if you like your speakers which is obvious if you kept them I would be hesitant to change - put em in another room or get a less high maintenance wife. :p

Sub sats are lousy for music - pretty abysmal at movies too. SACD of course is opened to you going a new route in surround - I've been largely unimpressed. Sony did a pretty good demo that they set up with Martin Logan a couple of years ago - but we're talkling a system that their engineers demoed with a system over $100,000.00. Some dealers here run their own little show every year and give cards to customers who can come and listen for free. It was quite good - I'll take the AN E/SEC and 3.1 no times over sampling dac two channel set-up.

Still - if you must why not look at the new Vandy's - I've had limited experience with them but presumably thye have speakers you might like and perhaps newer finishes to make them look good enough for the WAF. Try and convince her that good wood is good for the decor - not the pasticky "it looks like wood but it isn't" kinda stuff. The AN E is an ugly speaker by most accounts still this guy has done a fabulous job on the finish http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/359469.html

Don't get the panzy ass satelites or in wall or hanging rubbish - yeah it makes some noise and it's out of the way but why not talk to your wife about getting a speaker that matches the decor and can actually enhance the living environment as fine furnature.

risabet
01-07-2005, 12:32 AM
Martin-Logan makes a speaker named the Vignette, this is a wall mounted unit that retails for 649.00 each. Add a Descent subwoofer for $599.00 I think, and you have the makings of a fine HT system.

jocko_nc
01-07-2005, 06:52 AM
Thanks for the all the advice. I definitely need to take a look at what is out there. It sounds like there is good technology out there that I have probably never seen. If 5 channel sound can be so accurate, I really need to check it out. I have never seen it before. What have I been missing??? Most I have seen have been pretty low-end stuff and people raving about their Bose cubes. I need to get out more. It has been 14 years since I took a look. I guess it speaks well for the Vandersteens. All this time I have never felt the need to look for a replacement... lol.

Thanks,

jocko

jocko_nc
01-07-2005, 07:39 AM
New angle... The Vandersteens are "vintage". Instead of getting rid of them, we need more!

What do you guys think about adding the Vandersteen center and rears. I did not know they made them, that is how up on things I am. I assume the sound qualities would match what I have. Would that be considered a desirable setup? I know it ain't cheap. However, I am starting out $1200.00 ahead that way. Again, I hate to dump these. I have absolutely no other use for them, I may as well throw them in the lake.

Otherwise, if I were to keep the 2ce's as primaries, what are the odds that I could use them with the other makes recommended? Am I asking for trouble hoping to match acoustically? Is that just stupid? Mixing styles seems awful dumb and only draws attention to the "uniqueness" of Vandersteen.

Finally, what do you recommend as a 5 channel preamp? I may decide to continue to use the old Carver for the mains. It has been good to me and is "vintage" also!!! Is there a 5 channel receiver with preamp-out for dumping into the Carver?

Thanks in advance.

jocko

jocko_nc
01-07-2005, 07:46 AM
One more...

How about a complete "vintage" system? (with vandersteens, of course) Going for older high-end components on the power side, analog meters and the like. There is some sweet gear on Ebay. Naturally, the preamp needs to be modern. From a fashion standpoint, can that be cool and hip? Am I likely to be able to convince the Wife that it is cool and hip? lol.

I'll tell her vintage gear is all the rage in NY and SF...

jocko

Buzz Roll
01-07-2005, 09:42 AM
The Ohm MicroWalsh Talls are in my opinion the best sounding but still
WAF. Depending on room size, the Talls might work for you. They have the same open and natural sound as Vandys and other time coherent speakers, but are much smaller.

They sound REALLY good.

dean_martin
01-07-2005, 10:46 AM
Here's the deal. Tell your wife that she can put anything she wants in that room within a certain budget. In exchange, you take out a second mortgage and build a 20' x 30' building in the back yard (or, if you don't have enough yard space - add an extra room). It must have a half-bath, a fridge and a comfortable listening chair. This way you begin to spend more time with your Vandy's and music like the good ol' days and she and her friends don't have to see or hear your Vandys.

I've already checked on this plan and will have more details soon. A friend of mine built another friend a 20' x 30' metal building with unfinished interior and concrete slab for $6,000. This thing went through the worst of Hurrican Ivan without blemish. He said it would only take a little more to finish out a 20' x 15' room leaving the rest unfinished for storage - you can never have enough storage space. I strongly recommend you look into this option as I have. Yes, she has her dreams of a chic space to entertain and I have my dreams of a place to hang out in my boxers and listen to tunes. Unfortunately, those dreams cannot be realized in the same room.

Woochifer
01-07-2005, 11:41 AM
New angle... The Vandersteens are "vintage". Instead of getting rid of them, we need more!

Unfortunately, the look of the Vandys are "vintage" in a suburban 70s plywood paneling or 80s oak furniture sort of way. Not an angle that I would try, but then again I don't know your wife.


What do you guys think about adding the Vandersteen center and rears. I did not know they made them, that is how up on things I am. I assume the sound qualities would match what I have. Would that be considered a desirable setup? I know it ain't cheap. However, I am starting out $1200.00 ahead that way. Again, I hate to dump these. I have absolutely no other use for them, I may as well throw them in the lake.

The Vandy center channels are probably the best center speakers I've heard. Not because I like the Vandy sound, so much as they seamlessly blend in with the mains better than any other horizontal center speaker I've tried. And the match between the mains and the center speaker is what counts, not how good the center speaker sounds by itself.

In a full 5.1 setup, the Vandersteens have some of the best imaging and most seamless encirclement effect I've yet heard.

In looking at the Vandy site, I also noticed that they now also have a series of on-wall speakers. Those just might be the ticket if you want to stay with Vandersteen.

http://www.vandersteen.com/images/Vandersteen_VSM1_White.jpg

Trust me, if you want to toss those 2ce's into the lake, there are plenty of listeners and dealers who will pay plenty to keep you from doing that. Vandersteens generally have very good resale value.


Otherwise, if I were to keep the 2ce's as primaries, what are the odds that I could use them with the other makes recommended? Am I asking for trouble hoping to match acoustically? Is that just stupid? Mixing styles seems awful dumb and only draws attention to the "uniqueness" of Vandersteen.

At the very least, you should go with a Vandersteen center speaker. It's highly desirable, though not quite as crucial, to go with timbre matched surround speakers as well, and more so if you plan to get into multichannel music.


Finally, what do you recommend as a 5 channel preamp? I may decide to continue to use the old Carver for the mains. It has been good to me and is "vintage" also!!! Is there a 5 channel receiver with preamp-out for dumping into the Carver?

You can get a multichannel receiver with preouts for under $500 nowadays, including some such as the Yamaha RX-V650, that have automatic room calibration functions. If you like Carver, might want to look into Sunfire amps since Bob Carver designed those as well.

ArthurGatos
01-08-2005, 08:33 PM
There's another solution ........ a separation! No, do not panic, not the matrimonial one, I mean an...Audio Separation.

Another room, even the garage if you have one, converted in Your own listening heaven, where you can experiment with speaker positioning and different cables, without any protests from your better half.

If this is at all posible, it seems to me the best and least stressful solution.

Arthur

jocko_nc
01-09-2005, 10:36 AM
Update...

I think the Vandys will get a stay-of-execution. We went shopping yesterday and really looked at our options as far as furniture. It does not look like the bigger pieces are going to work, at least there is enough question that we are not comfortable ordering the stuff untried. We did find some newer pieces "plasma credenzas" that will probably fit the room and allow for the, ahem, big ulgy speakers. She has relented on the Vandersteen style and will allow the center channel as well. Yee Haw. Nice that she was "reasonable", what a waste of money that would have been. (she saw the dollars involved in replacing them)

Here is what we are thinking...

Samsung Gen. III DLP 46 HDTV
Multi-channel AV receiver, Marantz SR4500 or that Yamaha, preouts a must!
Vandersteen 2Ce's for mains
Vandersteen center
Ceiling mount rears, TBD, but with dome tweeters (wall mount is going to be tough)
Use the existing Carver Receiver as main channel amp, pre-in capability

Eventually, I may want to grab some used Carver main amps, 2 channel for main, 2 channel bridged for center. I always wanted a TFM 25... Rears will always drive from receiver. Father-in-law may have some extra Adcoms laying around as well...

What do you think? Headed in right direction? Any other receivers I shoud consider, particularly one that may be available used?

This should not cost too much, reusing what I already have. Maybe $1200.00 total. It pays to buy quality in the first place.

Thanks,

jocko

dave123456@mail.com
01-11-2005, 01:31 PM
get a new wife.

RGA
01-11-2005, 08:29 PM
Make sure to get a really user firendly receiver - agreed on the preouts(make sure the preouts for all channels or at elast the front three. Marantz does have the longest initial warranty - Mine is probably viewed as good in this class(Marantz 4300) but it's not the moist intuitive device in the world. For example you have to push the amp button and then the off button to turn it off.

stuartlittle
01-14-2005, 08:04 PM
Always a fan of Orb Audio...check them out at www.orbaudio.com. They are the ultimate wife-pleasing speaker, and they sound like big, full floorstanding speakers. They are designed w/ music in mind, too, and that's my primary use these days and I can report complete satisfaction. Great imaging, clarity and bass. A really full sound, and you'd never, ever know they were sub/sat if you had your eyes closed.

Silverbullet
01-15-2005, 11:49 PM
Always a fan of Orb Audio...check them out at www.orbaudio.com. They are the ultimate wife-pleasing speaker, and they sound like big, full floorstanding speakers. They are designed w/ music in mind, too, and that's my primary use these days and I can report complete satisfaction. Great imaging, clarity and bass. A really full sound, and you'd never, ever know they were sub/sat if you had your eyes closed.
Your wife may like the Cinema 110 from Paradigm, it run about $800 for the whole set, two mains, center, two rears and a sub. I know your pain, i'm in the same dilema.

texlle
01-16-2005, 11:45 AM
Sorry if this post sounds kind of broken up. I had a really nice post about this but it was deleted twice because these forums load slower than molasses in January and I hit the refresh button thinking it wasn't going to load! But let me try this again. First off, I must say that I agree with the other members in that you should move your system to its own room so that you can enjoy it wholly and not bother or be bothered by the wife. Most wives don't understand that sometimes good sound can be obtrusive ;). After this, I would buy a nice, relatively modest home theatre setup that you can enjoy for its audio quality (though probably not as pleasing as your "bulky" stereo), and she can enjoy for looks and aesthetics.

Now I have to say that for home theatre, I have always liked the Anthony Gallo stuff. In this case, I would buy their home theatre system which includes their 5 "globule" satellites and a nice powerful subwoofer.

http://www.anthonygallo.co.uk/images/home_cinema_silver_micros.gif

And the globules come in different colors to please the Misses...

http://www.roundsound.com/images/8inarow293.gif

Match that with a nice home theatre amplifier like the Arcam diva AVR-250.

http://www.arcam.co.uk/images/diva_ARV250_large.jpg

Or even something from Denon would work nicely. Hope this helps you. Good luck! :)