Believe it or not, high end at Best Buy ...

[Woochifer]

Those of you who don't live in California, prepare yourself for a shock -- a few days ago I listened to a pair of Vienna Acoustics Mozarts driven by Primare separates over at Best Buy of all places. Yes, it's true and if the experiment goes well, this concept might soon hit your town.

Over the past few months, Best Buy has started adding Magnolia Home Theater ministores inside some of their California locations, basically a store within a store with actual demo rooms and a separate sales staff. The products are limited to home theater, and I did not see some of the higher end audio lines that are carried by standalone Magnolia AV stores like Martin Logan, McIntosh, Krell, Sonus Faber, B&K, and Pro-Ject at the Best Buy/Magnolia location I visited. However, walking into a Best Buy and then trying out stuff like the Vienna Acoustics Schonbergs, Fujitsu and Pioneer Elite plasmas, DLP projectors, Def Tech, REL, and M&K is quite a shocker considering that the normal Best Buy inquiries on this board involve comparisons between Athena and JBL speakers.

If these Magnolia stores perform well, then BB will expand the concept out of California.

[Worf101]

Those of you who don't live in California, prepare yourself for a shock -- a few days ago I listened to a pair of Vienna Acoustics Mozarts driven by Primare separates over at Best Buy of all places. Yes, it's true and if the experiment goes well, this concept might soon hit your town.

Over the past few months, Best Buy has started adding Magnolia Home Theater ministores inside some of their California locations, basically a store within a store with actual demo rooms and a separate sales staff. The products are limited to home theater, and I did not see some of the higher end audio lines that are carried by standalone Magnolia AV stores like Martin Logan, McIntosh, Krell, Sonus Faber, B&K, and Pro-Ject at the Best Buy/Magnolia location I visited. However, walking into a Best Buy and then trying out stuff like the Vienna Acoustics Schonbergs, Fujitsu and Pioneer Elite plasmas, DLP projectors, Def Tech, REL, and M&K is quite a shocker considering that the normal Best Buy inquiries on this board involve comparisons between Athena and JBL speakers.

If these Magnolia stores perform well, then BB will expand the concept out of California.

Least not in my neck of the woods. I recently walked through the local Best Buy during the week between Christmas and New Years... BIG mistake let me tell you. The place looked like Berlin in 46 or a warehouse after Atilla the Hun had gotten through with it. It was a wreck and a madhouse to boot. I didn't see any "high end" audio on display or any audio to speak of just wreckage and ruin and the typical JBL crap strewn about the floor. I'll check in a couple of months and see what's what.

Da Worfster :cool:

[BillB]

Tweeter dropped Vienna Acoustics last quarter but Best Buy seems like a bad fit as a replacement. I think their acquisition of Magnolia will result in Best Buy phasing out the high-end brands that Magnolia carried in the end. This is the same model Tweeter has followed in it's numerous acquisitions of small chains around the country.

The typical Best Buy customer is not looking to spend the type of money such high-end brands like V.A. and Primare demand.

Bill

[Woochifer]

Tweeter dropped Vienna Acoustics last quarter but Best Buy seems like a bad fit as a replacement. I think their acquisition of Magnolia will result in Best Buy phasing out the high-end brands that Magnolia carried in the end. This is the same model Tweeter has followed in it's numerous acquisitions of small chains around the country.

The typical Best Buy customer is not looking to spend the type of money such high-end brands like V.A. and Primare demand.

Bill

Actually, BB acquired Magnolia in 2000 and they've operated as an independent subsidiary since then. These Magnolia HT ministores are a new concept that BB tried out in two test stores earlier last year, and expanded to 19 stores by the end of the year. For now, these ministores are limited to California, but if they perform well, then the concept could go national.

What you refer to as a typical BB customer is exactly why BB is going with the Magnolia ministores, as opposed to trying to add higher end products within their existing BB product mix. They know that they have to do something different if they want to attract the higher end customers, and Magnolia's been successful at serving that market and has name recognition with that group. Also, that's the only way that they can maintain the relationships with some of their higher end brands -- by keeping it under the Magnolia umbrella. That could also be why I did not see some of Magnolia's other brands like McIntosh, Sonus Faber, and Martin Logan at the ministores I visited.

Magnolia's been around for 50 years, and unlike Tweeter's acquisitions where all of the regional chains that they acquired got converted into Tweeter stores, BB is not looking to rebrand the Magnolia stores. The problem with BB using the Magnolia name to move into higher end products at their BB stores is that outside of the west coast, Magnolia does not have much name recognition.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out because it's a strange hybrid that BB's trying to create here. They still have standalone Magnolia stores that carry a wider range of brands and products, and those stores use commissioned sales associates. The Magnolia ministores inside of Best Buy have a separate sales staff that works on an hourly basis, and they use Magnolia's delivery and installation team, not the one for BB.

[paul_pci]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out because it's a strange hybrid that BB's trying to create here. They still have standalone Magnolia stores that carry a wider range of brands and products, and those stores use commissioned sales associates. The Magnolia ministores inside of Best Buy have a separate sales staff that works on an hourly basis, and they use Magnolia's delivery and installation team, not the one for BB.[/QUOTE]


In Woodland Hills, CA they put a Magnolia adjacent to a BB, and at first I thought, well, okay, the consumer base doesn't really overlap and I kinda like looking over their stock and daydreaming, but I have to say, my experience there was odd at best. In my estimation, Magnolia has high end gear with a BB staff. I was eyeing this one Denon receiver they had on sale there and I asked to see the rear panel (that's what really matters, right?) and they guy couldn't accommodate me, so he went to the computer to look it up online, but he was too stupid to be able to negotiate the Denon website correctly. He gave up after 10 minutes. I could have done that at home in one minute. And he pretty much knew nothing about the receiver. Then another time, I bought some speaker wire there and asked if the guy could strip it for me (it had that real thick casing) and the guy didn't even have wrie strippers. Come on! I think if you're going to have high end gear you should have the requisite staff, which they don't.

Paul.

[Woochifer]

Least not in my neck of the woods. I recently walked through the local Best Buy during the week between Christmas and New Years... BIG mistake let me tell you. The place looked like Berlin in 46 or a warehouse after Atilla the Hun had gotten through with it. It was a wreck and a madhouse to boot. I didn't see any "high end" audio on display or any audio to speak of just wreckage and ruin and the typical JBL crap strewn about the floor. I'll check in a couple of months and see what's what.

Da Worfster :cool:

Worf -

You're a brave man! I had all these Best Buy giftcards just begging to be used and abused, but hardly any of the DVDs from my holiday list that I did not get for Christmas were on the shelves when I went there last week. What a mess. It looked like everything had been picked over and then some. But, it wasn't nearly as bad as the stormblitz that I saw when I exchanged a sweater over at the Gap!

That was when I popped into the Magnolia ministore and checked around. It is literally a store within a store. Sales guys wearing dress shirts and ties rather than blue polos, carpeting, low ceiling, track lighting (actually the kind of low voltage rail setup that my wife and I are looking to install at home), acoustically treated demo rooms, no stacks of boxes with shopping cart sized aisles, etc. I can imagine though the shock and confusion that some customers might have if they're perusing through the TV section at Best Buy (y'know trying to figure out which $100 color TV and $40 DVD player they want to buy) and then accidentally venture into the Magnolia section with the $4,000 Primare amps, $10,000 Fujitsu plasmas, $400 Home Theater Master remotes, and $2,000 Vienna Acoustics speakers!

[Woochifer]

In Woodland Hills, CA they put a Magnolia adjacent to a BB, and at first I thought, well, okay, the consumer base doesn't really overlap and I kinda like looking over their stock and daydreaming, but I have to say, my experience there was odd at best. In my estimation, Magnolia has high end gear with a BB staff. I was eyeing this one Denon receiver they had on sale there and I asked to see the rear panel (that's what really matters, right?) and they guy couldn't accommodate me, so he went to the computer to look it up online, but he was too stupid to be able to negotiate the Denon website correctly. He gave up after 10 minutes. I could have done that at home in one minute. And he pretty much knew nothing about the receiver. Then another time, I bought some speaker wire there and asked if the guy could strip it for me (it had that real thick casing) and the guy didn't even have wrie strippers. Come on! I think if you're going to have high end gear you should have the requisite staff, which they don't.

Paul.

Ironically, I think it was the Woodland Hills store that sparked the idea of putting Magnolia ministores inside of Best Buy. Magnolia only entered the California market about three years ago, and they found that the Magnolia stores located closest to a Best Buy location ramped up their sales the fastest. Best Buy's been trying to figure out a way to move into higher end (and more profitable) product niches, and this is their first clear attempt to stakeout a higher end market. It wouldn't make sense for them to just clear out shelf space and plug some Martin Logans into the switch boxes where the JBL and Bose demos are located.

I've had generally great service over at the Magnolia stores I've visited. I did several listenings with one particular sales associate who was very knowledgeable and helpful. He even knew about parametric equalizers, which is not very common even at high end stores. I wound up buying some racks, accessories, and a digital camera from him through various visits. But, he ended up going back to school, and the other sales guys I've dealt with since then have been more hit and miss as far as their product knowledge goes. Service though has remained pretty good.

Surprising that the store you visited would not have wire strippers available given that Magnolia has bulk spools of speaker cable in the showroom and they carry spades and banana plugs. But, one thing I will say about Denon's website, it is not very intuitive. If you don't know where you're going, it's not the easiest place to try and find a specific bit of information. Maybe the guy who designed Denon's website also writes their horribly cryptic owner's manuals.

[hershon]

Do you guys use Fry's alot? I live in Chatsworth been here about a 1 1/2 years to be near my sister. If you ever want to come over to hear my OrbAudio setup let me know. If nothing else, go to Uncle Ernies Pizza in Chatsworth off Topanga and they have the best pizza in the world and I'm from New York City.

Personally I hate Best Buy & places like that not because of the product but there total idiot workforce. I'd recommend Ken Crane's down here and Fry's.


Ironically, I think it was the Woodland Hills store that sparked the idea of putting Magnolia ministores inside of Best Buy. Magnolia only entered the California market about three years ago, and they found that the Magnolia stores located closest to a Best Buy location ramped up their sales the fastest. Best Buy's been trying to figure out a way to move into higher end (and more profitable) product niches, and this is their first clear attempt to stakeout a higher end market. It wouldn't make sense for them to just clear out shelf space and plug some Martin Logans into the switch boxes where the JBL and Bose demos are located.

I've had generally great service over at the Magnolia stores I've visited. I did several listenings with one particular sales associate who was very knowledgeable and helpful. He even knew about parametric equalizers, which is not very common even at high end stores. I wound up buying some racks, accessories, and a digital camera from him through various visits. But, he ended up going back to school, and the other sales guys I've dealt with since then have been more hit and miss as far as their product knowledge goes. Service though has remained pretty good.

Surprising that the store you visited would not have wire strippers available given that Magnolia has bulk spools of speaker cable in the showroom and they carry spades and banana plugs. But, one thing I will say about Denon's website, it is not very intuitive. If you don't know where you're going, it's not the easiest place to try and find a specific bit of information. Maybe the guy who designed Denon's website also writes their horribly cryptic owner's manuals.

[BillB]

Personally I hate Best Buy & places like that not because of the product but there total idiot workforce.

This is what will make it tough for Best Buy but I hope you're right Woochifer. BB has a great opportunity to fill the increasing void for mid to high-end audio and video gear as Tweeter, which was the biggest player in the market, has changed it's entire philosophy to custom install, whole house systems. They're abandoning the traditional audio components and speakers for "convergence" gear and in-wall/ceiling speakers.

It will be interesting to see if they hang onto the Magnolia name if/when they decide to go outside of California. I could see them branding it some sort of Better Best Buy, or Best Buy Select.

Bill

[Woochifer]

Do you guys use Fry's alot? I live in Chatsworth been here about a 1 1/2 years to be near my sister. If you ever want to come over to hear my OrbAudio setup let me know. If nothing else, go to Uncle Ernies Pizza in Chatsworth off Topanga and they have the best pizza in the world and I'm from New York City.

Personally I hate Best Buy & places like that not because of the product but there total idiot workforce. I'd recommend Ken Crane's down here and Fry's.

Actually, I live within walking distance of a Fry's store (it's about a 200,000 square foot superstore). Not my favorite place to shop -- disorganized sections, hard to find stuff, long lines, occasionally hostile service, etc. However, they do have some outrageously good sale prices on certain things and I buy almost all of my computer parts and peripherals there. At least among the stores I've visited up here in NoCal (where Fry's started), the sales guys in the audio and video departments are among the least knowledgeable I've seen compared to other stores. At least Good Guys and Magnolia train their sales associates before they get thrown to the lions. Fry's reputation is not all that great, and if you got people posting satirical pieces about Fry's on the web, then something's up.

http://braith.best.vwh.net/frys.htm

Good pointer on the pizza joint, I'll have to check it out next time I'm in the valley.

[Woochifer]

This is what will make it tough for Best Buy but I hope you're right Woochifer. BB has a great opportunity to fill the increasing void for mid to high-end audio and video gear as Tweeter, which was the biggest player in the market, has changed it's entire philosophy to custom install, whole house systems. They're abandoning the traditional audio components and speakers for "convergence" gear and in-wall/ceiling speakers.

It will be interesting to see if they hang onto the Magnolia name if/when they decide to go outside of California. I could see them branding it some sort of Better Best Buy, or Best Buy Select.

Bill

I haven't been to Tweeter. I'd always heard that they were in the same market niche as Good Guys and Magnolia -- serving the early adopter and mid to higher end markets without quite getting into the esoteric market niches. Independent audio stores have stayed aloft in recent years by moving into the custom installation market. The store owners I've talked to indicate that they don't make much from just moving audio products nowadays. The custom installations and big screen HDTVs are the big ticket items that keep their doors open, and allow them to provide demo rooms and product support for basic audio items.

I know that Good Guys and Magnolia have increased their installation offerings, but from what you're describing, it looks like Tweeter's gone to where a lot of independent shops have been. This really puts a squeeze on the independent operators, since they are already losing one support line with big screen HDTV prices dropping. If Tweeter's going after the home installation market, then that could put a lot of independents under because that was one of the few untapped markets that they had available.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if the custom installation market is so big and growing that Tweeter can sustain the entire company around it. One aspect that I've started seeing is that new home builders have begun offering integrated home theaters as an option for home buyers (plasma screens and in-wall speakers preinstalled), which reduces one market. Looks like a lot of transition in the next few years, and not a whole lot of benefit to those of us who are just looking for decent gear and places to try it out.

Whether or not the Magnolia name goes national, who knows. But, regardless I think Best Buy will keep trying different approaches to make inroads into the higher market niches until something sticks. Their stores are more than large enough to keep reconfiguring, and over the past few months, they've been remodeling a lot of their California stores. I've read their quarterly reports, and they're trying out these "store within a store" concepts in different markets and stores in California. Some stores got the Magnolia Home Theater ministores, others have a section with high tech toys for kids, others have extra gaming offerings, and others have dedicated sections for small business products.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Can someone help a brudda off the floor, give me some water and an asprin! BB and Magnolia, surely you jest Wooch!

[Woochifer]

Can someone help a brudda off the floor, give me some water and an asprin! BB and Magnolia, surely you jest Wooch!

Hey T, remember I don't have a sense of humor dude! Man, I wish I was joking! Hearing that Vienna Acoustics/Primare combo belting out Bela Fleck with such authority and grace was almost surreal, given that the first thing I heard after exiting the Magnolia ministore demo room was a noisy churned up mix of TV speakers, HTIBs, Lifestyle systems, and car audio subs all with the bass cranked up to "11" by teenagers. Y'know, what we usually hear at Best Buy!

Water and asprin? I thought that some rum and a cocktail umbrella would suffice!

[paul_pci]

Man, I used to eat at Uncle Ernie's all the time, years ago. I go to Fry's a lot, but mostly to mine the cheap DVDs and drool over the Macs. But, yeah, it's a montrosity of a store, but I kinda like that type of chaos from time to time.

[hershon]

Fry's is great if you're looking to save money & have an idea of what you want. For those not in LA, its a superelectronic store that's about 100 times bigger than your average Best Buy. It's also easy to return thing. I use the place mainly to get cheap DVD+R(W)'s, blank CD's, cables and some computer parts. Woochifer-do you rent or own around there? I have a really nice 2 bedroom 2 bathroom apt. with a pool & my own private large terrace off Jordan that I rent for $1175 a month (rent hasn't gone up in a year and a half!).
Any steak places nearby that you'd recommend? I go to the Wood Ranch & the place by the mall that starts with a C- can't remember the name offhand. The Country Deli by Uncle Ernies is also very good and gives you big portions. If you want to get a great hair styling at a bargain rate there is a woman named Rosa at Supercuts who rules! Her $18 haircuts are better than the $100 cuts I used to get back East. To be honest, I'm actually living quite good for my money in Chatsworth/Northridge area as things are more than reasonable. The only celebrities I run into here are Joey Buttafucco & Sinbad.
If any of you guys ever want to hear my Orb Audio set up let me know. Have you guys checked out Ken Cranes in Sherman Oaks as the sales people really know there stuff there. I got my Mitsubishi 48" HD TV set there.



Man, I used to eat at Uncle Ernie's all the time, years ago. I go to Fry's a lot, but mostly to mine the cheap DVDs and drool over the Macs. But, yeah, it's a montrosity of a store, but I kinda like that type of chaos from time to time.

[BillB]

Woochifer,

One model that many independents may go with should Tweeter put the squeeze on their custom-install business is one which a local dealer in my area uses. They've been in the custom install game for years and only recently, within the past 5 years, opened a retail operation . They've got contracts with many of the big builders in the area so that those "integrated systems" are installed by him.

Bill

[shokhead]

Love frys in FV. Best Buy has something beter then Bose speakers and Sony recievers? Ken Cranes has good sale prices but high reg prices.

[hershon]

Love frys in FV. Best Buy has something beter then Bose speakers and Sony recievers? Ken Cranes has good sale prices but high reg prices.

Yeah, I basically got my TV set on sale. There deal was that if i could find any place within
the city that sold the TV cheaper, they would match it within 30 days. I couldn't find anyone that offered the set I got, cheaper & delivery and installation was free. The salesman did a great job and sold me the perfect HD TV for my needs and budget. One thing I found interesting though was, the accessories such as Monster Component cables & surge protectors, were alot cheaper buying new online for the same model, then buying at their store. I generally, if I can wait 2 weeks or so and save more than $25, will buy something online rather than getting it retail. I usually use google and/or Amazon.com & also check out Ebay. Ebay for me has gotten less appealing in the last year or so as the sellers are greedier/more stupid as well as the bidders. Unless something is buy it now under a person with great feedback, I won't bother buying. Some of these cretin sellers, list items for a more expensive minimum bid than it would cost you if you bought it straight from Amazon.com.

[Woochifer]

So Cal's a big enough market to support a lot of mid-level regional chains like Ken Crane's. Other stores in that niche include Howard's, Paul's Big Screen, and Hollytron. These are the exact types of stores that Tweeter's been acquiring to grow into a national chain. I'm surprised that they did not try to acquire Ken Crane's to enter the L.A. market, given that Ken Crane's is already a B&W dealer. They broke into the San Diego market by acquiring DOW Stereo.

It's been a while since I went to Ken Crane's to shop for audio gear, but I did used to go to their DVD superstore all the time. Ken Crane's had a Laserdisc store down in Orange County for a long time, and it carried probably the biggest selection of titles anywhere. Then, when DVDs came along, they expanded the Laserdisc store to include DVDs and it too was cited as the largest DVD store in the country. Eventually, the business went online to become DVDPlanet.com, which Ken Crane's eventually sold. The DVD Planet superstore is in Huntington Beach if you're looking to spend a whole day perusing through DVD titles. I go there whenever I visit So Cal, and always find a bunch of obscure items and rarities that I had not seen anywhere else.

[Quagmire]

"...and car audio subs all with the bass cranked up to "11" by teenagers. Y'know, what we usually hear at Best Buy!"

Love the subtle reference to "Spinal Tap".

Q

[shokhead]

Of all the places above,i still found most stuff alot cheaper online.

[zapr]

.......I would never buy any audio-video equipment from Best Buy, Future Shop or any other franchise chain. They deal in seconds, equipment from the "b" factory or what ever you want to call it. That's why they have the prices they have. You get what you pay for! Been there, done that!.......Zapr.

[tominator]

be careful of BB warrantees they are terrible, bad customer service!!




Those of you who don't live in California, prepare yourself for a shock -- a few days ago I listened to a pair of Vienna Acoustics Mozarts driven by Primare separates over at Best Buy of all places. Yes, it's true and if the experiment goes well, this concept might soon hit your town.

Over the past few months, Best Buy has started adding Magnolia Home Theater ministores inside some of their California locations, basically a store within a store with actual demo rooms and a separate sales staff. The products are limited to home theater, and I did not see some of the higher end audio lines that are carried by standalone Magnolia AV stores like Martin Logan, McIntosh, Krell, Sonus Faber, B&K, and Pro-Ject at the Best Buy/Magnolia location I visited. However, walking into a Best Buy and then trying out stuff like the Vienna Acoustics Schonbergs, Fujitsu and Pioneer Elite plasmas, DLP projectors, Def Tech, REL, and M&K is quite a shocker considering that the normal Best Buy inquiries on this board involve comparisons between Athena and JBL speakers.

If these Magnolia stores perform well, then BB will expand the concept out of California.

[Woochifer]

.......I would never buy any audio-video equipment from Best Buy, Future Shop or any other franchise chain. They deal in seconds, equipment from the "b" factory or what ever you want to call it. That's why they have the prices they have. You get what you pay for! Been there, done that!.......Zapr.

So, if it's from a chain store, it's bound to be b-stock? Interesting that you would know this. Do you have access to BB's stock room to verify for yourself that they are repackaging what they sell? The only b-stock that I see at their stores, they put back on the floor clearly labeled as an open box/returned item.

Also, chain stores rarely give you the kinds of bargain pricing that you see on various websites, unless you're talking about private sales, sale prices, or closeout specials. If anything, it's those websites that are more likely to deal in b-stock since a lot of them are not authorized dealers for the brands that they stock.


be careful of BB warrantees they are terrible, bad customer service!!

What do warranties have to do with customer service?

[zapr]

So, if it's from a chain store, it's bound to be b-stock? Interesting that you would know this. Do you have access to BB's stock room to verify for yourself that they are repackaging what they sell? The only b-stock that I see at their stores, they put back on the floor clearly labeled as an open box/returned item.

Also, chain stores rarely give you the kinds of bargain pricing that you see on various websites, unless you're talking about private sales, sale prices, or closeout specials. If anything, it's those websites that are more likely to deal in b-stock since a lot of them are not authorized dealers for the brands that they stock.



What do warranties have to do with customer service?
.....I didn't mean they were selling repackaged or returned items, I meant factory seconds meaning there could be something wrong with their items. I'm referring to my own past expieriance. I bought a sony trinitron from such a chain a few years ago and the picture was horrible. I took it back and exchainged it for a panisonc gaoo. There was a white line down the right side of the picture tube. Took it back and got another one. The line was gone but again I had a horrible picture. The battle was on to no avail. Shortly after that they closed their doors. I'm not saying this happens in all cases. but as the saying goes, buyer beware! Oh! It was their price that drew me to them. Live and learn........Zapr.

[Woochifer]

.....I didn't mean they were selling repackaged or returned items, I meant factory seconds meaning there could be something wrong with their items. I'm referring to my own past expieriance. I bought a sony trinitron from such a chain a few years ago and the picture was horrible. I took it back and exchainged it for a panisonc gaoo. There was a white line down the right side of the picture tube. Took it back and got another one. The line was gone but again I had a horrible picture. The battle was on to no avail. Shortly after that they closed their doors. I'm not saying this happens in all cases. but as the saying goes, buyer beware! Oh! It was their price that drew me to them. Live and learn........Zapr.

Okay, so you bought some defective items, therefore everything that a chain sells is b-stock? Sorry, but I don't see the one-to-one correlation. Factory new items can fail, and refurbished items can last for years without trouble. Whether you buy from a chain or independent is irrelevant.

I know people who've worked the stock rooms at a number of audio stores, both independent and chain stores. Authorized retailers get their product directly from the designated distributor, regardless of whether they are chains or independents. It's not only unethical, but illegal for a manufacturer to fix up a returned unit and repackage it as new. They have to label it as refurbished, and a lot of stores carry refurbished items. But, those items are clearly labeled as such.

The risk of defects is there with any manufactured product that you buy, particularly items as complex as consumer electronics where you're getting mass produced components pieced together from a variety of suppliers. Sony's had reliability problems for years with several of their TV models. If the thing is dead out of the box, whose fault is it? Are you saying that the retailer is to blame? Sounds to me more like the manufacturer's the one that put out the defective product in the first place.

[hershon]

For me personally, if you know what you're planning to buy ahead of time & know when the lines are not too crowded, Best Buy is an OK place to shop. Saying that, anyone who doesn't know what they're looking for specifically and relies on the minimum wage or what have you Best Buy employees, is a total moron, as these guys don't know, for the most part, crap anyway, even though they'll look you straight in the face and give you an idiot answer and when you then say hold on this doesn't sound right, look at you like you're the moron.

If you're not sure of a TV or stereo product, I recommend you go to a high end store (but only if they carry it) as in my experience the salesmne know what they're talking about & are on commission & rely on recurring customers seeking their help.

[Woochifer]

For me personally, if you know what you're planning to buy ahead of time & know when the lines are not too crowded, Best Buy is an OK place to shop. Saying that, anyone who doesn't know what they're looking for specifically and relies on the minimum wage or what have you Best Buy employees, is a total moron, as these guys don't know, for the most part, crap anyway, even though they'll look you straight in the face and give you an idiot answer and when you then say hold on this doesn't sound right, look at you like you're the moron.

I know for a fact that BB employees are paid more than minimum wage (for one thing, the Magnolia ministore employees are paid on an hourly basis by Best Buy), and a few of the ones that I've talked to there are very knowledgeable, especially on the video side. If a customer walks into BB without any experience, and relies on a BB employee for advice, how does that make them a total moron? They're inexperienced customers/newbies -- can't blame them for asking an employee for assistance.

Sorry if you had a bad experience, but your generalization is just that, and one that does not correspond to the service that I have had there in the past. (I bought a freezer at BB, not knowing squat about freezers aside from what they do, and the guy who assisted me was very helpful; even found a discontinued unit at their distribution center and offered a very good markdown) In my experience, some of the employees at Fry's have been worse than anything I've encountered at BB.


If you're not sure of a TV or stereo product, I recommend you go to a high end store (but only if they carry it) as in my experience the salesmne know what they're talking about & are on commission & rely on recurring customers seeking their help.

I agree that you'll get more knowledgeable service at a high end store, but it's also hit and miss as to whether or not you'll be treated as a human being or a bothersome idiot.

[hershon]

Good for you but all I can say for me personally I consider majority of the work force at Best Buy- which I'm defining as not Magnolia total morons. Again if a person doesn't no anything but relies on Best Buys staff, who I consider for the most part morons even though that's not your experience, they deserve to have problems. Oddly enough I've had some good help at Fry's, so I guess our situation is reversed. I do know its much quicker & easier to return items at Fry's in Northridge than Best Buy. As they say, whatever turns you on.

[zapr]

Okay, so you bought some defective items, therefore everything that a chain sells is b-stock? Sorry, but I don't see the one-to-one correlation. Factory new items can fail, and refurbished items can last for years without trouble. Whether you buy from a chain or independent is irrelevant.

I know people who've worked the stock rooms at a number of audio stores, both independent and chain stores. Authorized retailers get their product directly from the designated distributor, regardless of whether they are chains or independents. It's not only unethical, but illegal for a manufacturer to fix up a returned unit and repackage it as new. They have to label it as refurbished, and a lot of stores carry refurbished items. But, those items are clearly labeled as such.

The risk of defects is there with any manufactured product that you buy, particularly items as complex as consumer electronics where you're getting mass produced components pieced together from a variety of suppliers. Sony's had reliability problems for years with several of their TV models. If the thing is dead out of the box, whose fault is it? Are you saying that the retailer is to blame? Sounds to me more like the manufacturer's the one that put out the defective product in the first place.
......Anything that's manufactured has blems,agreed. Chain stores will buy the blems at a reduced price from the manufacturer. That's how they can sell at a reduced price. Agreed you could buy something from an independent and have problems, but far and few between and if so you will be looked after pronto. Have you ever seen a line up at customer service at a chain store? I waited 4 months for a digital camera to come back bought at a chain store. It was a gift by the way. Any one in the know will buy from an independent. That's how they servive. Chains feed off people who don't know anything about what they are buying which is the majority of the people. Example, people who buy Bose speakers. But that's bussiness. Chains are about making money, and thats it.Sorry Wooch, But I for one am tired of being ripped off!........Zapr.

[shokhead]

I know for a fact that BB employees are paid more than minimum wage (for one thing, the Magnolia ministore employees are paid on an hourly basis by Best Buy), and a few of the ones that I've talked to there are very knowledgeable, especially on the video side. If a customer walks into BB without any experience, and relies on a BB employee for advice, how does that make them a total moron? They're inexperienced customers/newbies -- can't blame them for asking an employee for assistance.

Sorry if you had a bad experience, but your generalization is just that, and one that does not correspond to the service that I have had there in the past. (I bought a freezer at BB, not knowing squat about freezers aside from what they do, and the guy who assisted me was very helpful; even found a discontinued unit at their distribution center and offered a very good markdown) In my experience, some of the employees at Fry's have been worse than anything I've encountered at BB.



I agree that you'll get more knowledgeable service at a high end store, but it's also hit and miss as to whether or not you'll be treated as a human being or a bothersome idiot.

So you didnt know squat about a freezer so anything they said,you wouldnt know if its right or wrong. I cant remember the last time i went into a BB,Good Guys,CC or anyother place and just from my research knew more then they did. Example: Went to Ken Cranes and asked about bass management on the Denon 2805. The guy says never heard of it,so me something that talks about it. All you need is speakers hooked up the right way and this baby will make them sign. Good guys when i asked if it had switched or unswitched outlets on the back told me you never use those,you go to Home Depot and buy a strip to plug something into. The guy at another GG told me about the Yamaha C750 that i only need to hook up the Dig out form DVD-A and SACD, no need for all those other cables. Now if i went by what everybody told me,well gee thanks.

[Worf101]

I know people who've worked the stock rooms at a number of audio stores, both independent and chain stores. Authorized retailers get their product directly from the designated distributor, regardless of whether they are chains or independents. It's not only unethical, but illegal for a manufacturer to fix up a returned unit and repackage it as new. They have to label it as refurbished, and a lot of stores carry refurbished items. But, those items are clearly labeled as such.

The risk of defects is there with any manufactured product that you buy, particularly items as complex as consumer electronics where you're getting mass produced components pieced together from a variety of suppliers. Sony's had reliability problems for years with several of their TV models. If the thing is dead out of the box, whose fault is it? Are you saying that the retailer is to blame? Sounds to me more like the manufacturer's the one that put out the defective product in the first place.

Sorry to disagree my friend but I see this very thing happen time and again. If you're lucky, they'll sell it as "scratch n dent" or "open box". If you're not they'll repackage it and sell it as new. I've been burned on everything from receivers to automobiles. The latter being "flood cars" that were supposed to be destroyed as the insurance had been paid.. instead they were shipped north and sold on many lots as "new". Nah man... if there's a shady buck to be turned, believe me somebodies doing it.

Da Worfster

[Iskreemman]

For me personally, if you know what you're planning to buy ahead of time & know when the lines are not too crowded, Best Buy is an OK place to shop. Saying that, anyone who doesn't know what they're looking for specifically and relies on the minimum wage or what have you Best Buy employees, is a total moron, as these guys don't know, for the most part, crap anyway, even though they'll look you straight in the face and give you an idiot answer and when you then say hold on this doesn't sound right, look at you like you're the moron.

If you're not sure of a TV or stereo product, I recommend you go to a high end store (but only if they carry it) as in my experience the salesmne know what they're talking about & are on commission & rely on recurring customers seeking their help.

I work for BB in the HT department and I have no problem telling a costumer to go to another store for high end stuff I always show them the best we have but if high end is what they want the go to another store...We DON'T work on commission so it won't hurt my pay check....We DON'T get anything for pushing service plans...The only thing we get is a kick ass discount ($10 for $70 monster cables) and discount straight from vendors (Harmony 659 rocks!)

[Woochifer]

......Anything that's manufactured has blems,agreed. Chain stores will buy the blems at a reduced price from the manufacturer. That's how they can sell at a reduced price. Agreed you could buy something from an independent and have problems, but far and few between and if so you will be looked after pronto. Have you ever seen a line up at customer service at a chain store? I waited 4 months for a digital camera to come back bought at a chain store. It was a gift by the way. Any one in the know will buy from an independent. That's how they servive. Chains feed off people who don't know anything about what they are buying which is the majority of the people. Example, people who buy Bose speakers. But that's bussiness. Chains are about making money, and thats it.Sorry Wooch, But I for one am tired of being ripped off!........Zapr.

And if the manufacturer has a stock of seconds, they sell it as refurbs. Sorry, but a manufacturer has a reputation to maintain as well and if they're repackaging blems and selling them as new, they're every bit as culpable as the retailer is. In my experience, I've seen more independent stores that deal in b-stock and gray market items than national chains like BB. The only chain store in my area that deals a lot in seconds and refurbs is Fry's, and those are clearly labeled.

So you waited 4 months for a digital camera to come back. Do you know for a fact that it would have been a shorter wait had you bought it at an independent store? For all you know, the chains and independents might send repair jobs that can't be done in-house to the same location. I know that some of the chain and independent stores where friends of mine used to work sent out their repair work to many of the same shops.

How is an independent any different from a chain store when it comes to taking advantage of a customer's ignorance? I can't tell you how many times I've walked into high end audio stores and had the sales reps trying to convince me that I need to buy cables that cost more than most of my components. EVERYBODY's out to make a buck, and the issues that you're blaming on chain stores can affect independents just the same, especially if we're talking about stores that serve comparable market points.

You've had reliability problems with a lot of items that you purchased, so you blame it on the place of purchase. Seems to me that the manufacturer's more at fault if we're talking about defective products.

[Woochifer]

So you didnt know squat about a freezer so anything they said,you wouldnt know if its right or wrong. I cant remember the last time i went into a BB,Good Guys,CC or anyother place and just from my research knew more then they did. Example: Went to Ken Cranes and asked about bass management on the Denon 2805. The guy says never heard of it,so me something that talks about it. All you need is speakers hooked up the right way and this baby will make them sign. Good guys when i asked if it had switched or unswitched outlets on the back told me you never use those,you go to Home Depot and buy a strip to plug something into. The guy at another GG told me about the Yamaha C750 that i only need to hook up the Dig out form DVD-A and SACD, no need for all those other cables. Now if i went by what everybody told me,well gee thanks.

Well, considering that I knew absolutely nothing about freezers, aside from what I needed one for, you're right I wouldn't know if what they were telling me was right or wrong. But, the difference is that the sales rep at least knew what he had available in my price range, whereas I had no idea of what was available. Went to three other stores, including a local appliance store, and the guy at BB was actually the most helpful and attentive, and he gave me the best price. All I know is that I got a freezer that met my needs, and I got it for less than I'd budgeted. If there are other things that I need to know, well that will have to wait for the next time I buy one.

In your case, you're asking very specific questions where even experienced people might not use the same terminology. For example, Yamaha's customer service reps didn't know what I was referring to when I e-mailed them questions about the bass management on their universal player. It wasn't until I rephrased the question that they finally figured out what I was asking. I posed a similar question to Denon, and got contradictory answers. I wound up answering my questions by bringing a test CD and SPL meter over to Magnolia and doing my own measurements in the store.

With Good Guys, you're just experiencing what happens when the sales staff gets restructured. GG has gone to a two-tiered salesforce. They retained their top earners and laid everybody else off, replacing them with entry level sales reps whom I'm not even sure get paid on commission. I can tell you from knowing people who've worked there that there's a huge gap between these top earners and the entry level reps.

At any store, it's going to be hit or miss depending on the type of inquiry you're making. If you're asking the basics, like what is HDTV or what is DD 5.1, then anyone can answer it. But, if you're asking specifics on a particular model, then it will get a lot dicier. Even at independent stores, they won't know every arcane detail about every product.

[Woochifer]

Sorry to disagree my friend but I see this very thing happen time and again. If you're lucky, they'll sell it as "scratch n dent" or "open box". If you're not they'll repackage it and sell it as new. I've been burned on everything from receivers to automobiles. The latter being "flood cars" that were supposed to be destroyed as the insurance had been paid.. instead they were shipped north and sold on many lots as "new". Nah man... if there's a shady buck to be turned, believe me somebodies doing it.

Da Worfster

I agree that it happens, but I don't think it depends on whether you buy from a chain store or an independent. Back when I first started in the audio hobby, some of the sleaziest places that you had to watch out for were the indepedent hi-fi stores, particularly the ones that were always advertising outrageous deals (didn't "Crazy Eddie" get busted for this kind of stuff?). Those were the guys who sold gray market goods, and very clearly repackaged open boxes. On at least a couple of occasions, I was ready to buy something and took one look at the box before killing the deal. At least a couple of these stores got shut down by the cops later on. Nowadays, some of the posts on this website that I've read over the past four years about questionable practices by some online vendors flashback to what I used to see with these kinds of shady dealers.

I've been fortunate that a lot of the friends with whom I went into the audio hobby wound up working at various audio stores, chains and independents alike. I think the majority of the transactions are legit, and at least at the stores where my friends worked, all of the returned items were clearly labeled. But, they did share some of the rumor mill grist about how some other stores operated. Most of really crooked stores are now gone, but some of those practices seem to have migrated online.

[paul_pci]

I remain confused about just what Magnolia is trying to accomplish. Just last Sunday, there was a circular and aside, from typically expensive televisions, there was nothing "high end" about the products advertised in that circular. Strange for a retail store more or less devoted to higher end audio selection.


Paul.

For hershon: I'll start a new thread in the off topic area for steak places in the Valley, and beyond.

[zapr]

And if the manufacturer has a stock of seconds, they sell it as refurbs. Sorry, but a manufacturer has a reputation to maintain as well and if they're repackaging blems and selling them as new, they're every bit as culpable as the retailer is. In my experience, I've seen more independent stores that deal in b-stock and gray market items than national chains like BB. The only chain store in my area that deals a lot in seconds and refurbs is Fry's, and those are clearly labeled.

So you waited 4 months for a digital camera to come back. Do you know for a fact that it would have been a shorter wait had you bought it at an independent store? For all you know, the chains and independents might send repair jobs that can't be done in-house to the same location. I know that some of the chain and independent stores where friends of mine used to work sent out their repair work to many of the same shops.

How is an independent any different from a chain store when it comes to taking advantage of a customer's ignorance? I can't tell you how many times I've walked into high end audio stores and had the sales reps trying to convince me that I need to buy cables that cost more than most of my components. EVERYBODY's out to make a buck, and the issues that you're blaming on chain stores can affect independents just the same, especially if we're talking about stores that serve comparable market points.

You've had reliability problems with a lot of items that you purchased, so you blame it on the place of purchase. Seems to me that the manufacturer's more at fault if we're talking about defective products.
.......Have you ever bought tires? It's common knowledge that retailers sell factory blems. You really have to check those tires to be sure they aren't blems unless you say you want blems to take advantage of the reduced price. Don't think they won't stiff you with blems to aquire the added profit if you aren't aware. The deal has nothing to do with the manufacturer. The independent relies on repeat bussiness. The chains motto is, we'll get ever one once. As far as audio equipment, I've never had a problem when bought from an independent. All the reliability problems I had with products were bought at a chain. Yes, I blame them........Zapr.

[hershon]

Hi,

I appologize if I may have offended you as my comments were meant in general about my experience with emplyees of Best Buy, but weren't meant or intended to imply, that the entire work force, is incompetant. Personally, I don't see how an electronic store can have a sales force of people who aren't on salary plus commission & thus for the most part, have little incentive to be technically advanced & to date. My positives on Best Buy are the prices. My negatives are the lines/hassles of buying and returning items & the overall disorganization of the place, in my personal opinion.




I work for BB in the HT department and I have no problem telling a costumer to go to another store for high end stuff I always show them the best we have but if high end is what they want the go to another store...We DON'T work on commission so it won't hurt my pay check....We DON'T get anything for pushing service plans...The only thing we get is a kick ass discount ($10 for $70 monster cables) and discount straight from vendors (Harmony 659 rocks!)

[Woochifer]

.......Have you ever bought tires? It's common knowledge that retailers sell factory blems. You really have to check those tires to be sure they aren't blems unless you say you want blems to take advantage of the reduced price. Don't think they won't stiff you with blems to aquire the added profit if you aren't aware. The deal has nothing to do with the manufacturer. The independent relies on repeat bussiness. The chains motto is, we'll get ever one once. As far as audio equipment, I've never had a problem when bought from an independent. All the reliability problems I had with products were bought at a chain. Yes, I blame them........Zapr.

What do tires have to do with audio equipment and places that sell that? A lot of grocery stores also sell expired food, but that doesn't say anything about chain stores versus independents either.

Like I said, sorry if you wound up with products that failed on you, but if you buy enough electronics, the law of averages will catch up with you at some point. Some of the TV manufacturers you see on Consumer Reports' reliability charts have over 25% of the units reporting problems. With computers, the failure rates on some makes is even higher.

A friend of mine who used to work at an audio store told me specifically to avoid Sony TVs because his store saw batches of Sonys that had failure rates over 50%. These are not repackaged boxes or seconds, these are new factory sealed units that came straight from Sony's distributor. Are you saying that those TVs magically had higher failure rates because they were sold thru a chain, and units from the same production run would have lower failure rates if they're sold thru an independent?

Reliability has EVERYTHING to do with the manufacturer. Just on this board and the review site, you'll see plenty of specific products that have had high failure rates. Unless a store has gorillas in the stock room playing dodgeball with the inventory, it doesn't matter who sold it. If a manufacturer designed a defective product, it will have a high failure rate. And Sony and Panasonic are two manufacturers that have had reliability problems with some of their TV production runs in recent years, and Sony's had problems across several of their product lines. In recent years, over half of the Sony products I've bought have failed. Those were bought from chains and independents alike. I no longer buy Sony, but I still shop at those stores and haven't had too many other problems.

Chains and independents alike prefer repeat customers. Your generalization about the purported business practices of chain stores is simply not based on fact. Best Buy's market reports (which I have read) have data on their repeat business, and it's pretty high. It makes no sense for them to jeopardize their relationship with those customers who might buy $50-$100 worth of DVDs and CDs every month, just so they can stiff those customers with a b-stock $100 DVD player that fails after 30 days. Sure you'll get chain stores with questionable business practices, but you'll get independents that do the same thing. In fact, in my experiences, I've seen a lot more refurbs and seconds at independent stores than at Best Buy.

The chain stores where friends of mine have worked generally maintained very tight control over their inventory. If the factory seal is broken, they cannot sell it as new. Selling defective or otherwise mistreated equipment as new is not good business practice, because with those 30 and 60-day return guarantees, a customer can easily terminate the deal for any reason. That's why when the reliability on those Sony TVs went into the crapper, he steered customers towards the Toshibas and JVCs first because reliable products that do not fail out of the box means less risk of a customer asking for their money back. Since he was on commission, his whole livelihood depended on satisfied customers. Again, nothing to do with who sold it.

[zapr]

What do tires have to do with audio equipment and places that sell that? A lot of grocery stores also sell expired food, but that doesn't say anything about chain stores versus independents either.

Like I said, sorry if you wound up with products that failed on you, but if you buy enough electronics, the law of averages will catch up with you at some point. Some of the TV manufacturers you see on Consumer Reports' reliability charts have over 25% of the units reporting problems. With computers, the failure rates on some makes is even higher.

A friend of mine who used to work at an audio store told me specifically to avoid Sony TVs because his store saw batches of Sonys that had failure rates over 50%. These are not repackaged boxes or seconds, these are new factory sealed units that came straight from Sony's distributor. Are you saying that those TVs magically had higher failure rates because they were sold thru a chain, and units from the same production run would have lower failure rates if they're sold thru an independent?

Reliability has EVERYTHING to do with the manufacturer. Just on this board and the review site, you'll see plenty of specific products that have had high failure rates. Unless a store has gorillas in the stock room playing dodgeball with the inventory, it doesn't matter who sold it. If a manufacturer designed a defective product, it will have a high failure rate. And Sony and Panasonic are two manufacturers that have had reliability problems with some of their TV production runs in recent years, and Sony's had problems across several of their product lines. In recent years, over half of the Sony products I've bought have failed. Those were bought from chains and independents alike. I no longer buy Sony, but I still shop at those stores and haven't had too many other problems.

Chains and independents alike prefer repeat customers. Your generalization about the purported business practices of chain stores is simply not based on fact. Best Buy's market reports (which I have read) have data on their repeat business, and it's pretty high. It makes no sense for them to jeopardize their relationship with those customers who might buy $50-$100 worth of DVDs and CDs every month, just so they can stiff those customers with a b-stock $100 DVD player that fails after 30 days. Sure you'll get chain stores with questionable business practices, but you'll get independents that do the same thing. In fact, in my experiences, I've seen a lot more refurbs and seconds at independent stores than at Best Buy.

The chain stores where friends of mine have worked generally maintained very tight control over their inventory. If the factory seal is broken, they cannot sell it as new. Selling defective or otherwise mistreated equipment as new is not good business practice, because with those 30 and 60-day return guarantees, a customer can easily terminate the deal for any reason. That's why when the reliability on those Sony TVs went into the crapper, he steered customers towards the Toshibas and JVCs first because reliable products that do not fail out of the box means less risk of a customer asking for their money back. Since he was on commission, his whole livelihood depended on satisfied customers. Again, nothing to do with who sold it.
........The tires were an analogy ( that's were they compare things ). I think you've long since past defending chains and are now defending your statements regarding chains. There is no point in beating a dead horse!.......Zapr

[Woochifer]

........The tires were an analogy ( that's were they compare things ). I think you've long since past defending chains and are now defending your statements regarding chains. There is no point in beating a dead horse!.......Zapr

Has nothing to do with defending chains, it has to with your trying to draw a causal relationship between product reliability and whether it was purchased from a chain or an independent store. Citing your own bad experiences does not prove a thing, because you're trying to make an across-the-board generalization that others can easily contradict. If you prefer to buy from independent stores, then that's fine and there are many reasons for doing so. But, getting more reliable products in the process is not one of them.

My point is that you'll get a fair share of faulty products regardless of whether the point of purchase is a chain or independent. And I've seen crooked business practices over the years at chains and independents alike.