Riddle me this, riddle me that....ok now can someone try to explain that?

[meephis]

Ok Why is the Paradigm Signature Servo $3200 American, and the Servo 15 is only like $1500 American? Did I miss something? The specs are almost identicle! WHY!!!??? Ok there must be some reason. Or, is this just another marketing ploy from Paradigm to get another couple hundred bucks out of people by slapping a different label on it? Ok I'm pretty confused can someone help me here? :confused:

[RGA]

My dealer was asking why the S8 was 4 times the money of the Studio 100V2 - Many companies when they build a reputation and name bring out soemhting hugely expensive and not much if at all better to increase profit - after all many are solely interested in the buck. Pioneer Elite for a long time was a nicely finished no better than the non-Elite line stuff - Sony ES versus non ES and so-on.

TO be fair not everything is in the standard measurements and the $3200.00 one may be better sounding - is it worth more than double the price? You tell us.

[46minaudio]

My dealer was asking why the S8 was 4 times the money of the Studio 100V2 - Many companies when they build a reputation and name bring out soemhting hugely expensive and not much if at all better to increase profit - after all many are solely interested in the buck. Pioneer Elite for a long time was a nicely finished no better than the non-Elite line stuff - Sony ES versus non ES and so-on.

TO be fair not everything is in the standard measurements and the $3200.00 one may be better sounding - is it worth more than double the price? You tell us.
Yep there are other companies that are far worse than this..Audio Note is a prime example.Being the AN shill that RGA is maybe he can give some examples of the different levels of the $ difference of the different levels AN charges for there speakers.

[Woochifer]

Ok Why is the Paradigm Signature Servo $3200 American, and the Servo 15 is only like $1500 American? Did I miss something? The specs are almost identicle! WHY!!!??? Ok there must be some reason. Or, is this just another marketing ploy from Paradigm to get another couple hundred bucks out of people by slapping a different label on it? Ok I'm pretty confused can someone help me here? :confused:

Check again, the new version of the Servo 15 came out not too long ago and it now lists for $2,200. The previous version cost $1,500, and the new Servo 15 includes some major changes over the old version. The Servo 15 now uses the same amp and basic driver that comes with the Signature Servo. The most notable difference between the two is that the Signature comes with a real wood veneer and has that high gloss wood available as well.

With the Signature and Studio series main speakers, the main difference was that that Signature series has the real wood cabinets and uses highly modified versions of the Studio series drivers. The speakers have similar profiles, but the Signature series costs a lot more. In my comparison between the Studio 20 v.3 and the Signature S2, I did not think that the difference in sound quality was worth the extra money. Then again that's less a criticism of the S2 than high praise for the Studio 20 v.3, which I feel is one of the best speakers that I've heard in its price range.

Given that the price differential between the subwoofer versions is not nearly as huge, I'm not even sure if the Signature Servo uses a modified version of the Servo 15's driver. It might just be the cabinetry that's different. If you can detect a difference in listening comparisons, then it's up to you whether the differences are worth the price.

I've read that customers were not buying the Signature Servo when they purchased the Signature speakers. They were opting for the Servo 15 instead, so rather than lower the price of the Signature Servo, Paradigm opted to transplant the amp and driver from the Signature Servo and bump up the price by $700. You wind up with a comparably high performance sub, but it costs a lot more than before. The $1,500 price point that the previous Servo 15 occupied is now taken up by the Seismic models.

[meephis]

Yeah I am not sure about the difference being worth it or not but I think I would go with the Servo-15 and save a crap load of $. Has anyone here actually had a chance to put the two side by side and make a comparison?

[Woochifer]

Yeah I am not sure about the difference being worth it or not but I think I would go with the Servo-15 and save a crap load of $. Has anyone here actually had a chance to put the two side by side and make a comparison?

A lot of Signature series customers were already doing that, which might be why Paradigm put those upgraded components originally developed for the Signature Servo inside of the new Servo 15. If the Signature customers were already buying the Servo 15s, might as well give them a higher priced alternative if they don't want the Signature Servo.

[RGA]

Yep there are other companies that are far worse than this..Audio Note is a prime example.Being the AN shill that RGA is maybe he can give some examples of the different levels of the $ difference of the different levels AN charges for there speakers.

Well being anti-AN for no reason is curious as well.

But yes it is in the listening and I at least have done that - and noted that several times in my reviews of the line-ups. And sir you better provide proof that I'm a shill - that sir is slander.

[kexodusc]

I have to echo Wooch's sentiments...aside from some minor tweaks, all I've noticed is the fancier veneer/wood finish on the Signature speakers, and that certainly doesn't justify the cost increase. Paradigm, to me at least, has always been a more "value oriented" company...

I do like most of their bookshelf models at the prices they go for, but the exception has to be the Signature series.
When I heard the S2 and S4 originally, I was floored at how great they sounded. I thought Paradigm hit a home run. But I was also under the impression that these were only a few hundred more than their Studio counterparts.
At double the price they're just not better enough IMO, not compared to other similarly priced speakers.
Paradigm's growing their business, maybe someday they'll tweak these speakers, or sell them cheaper, but IMO, right now, the speakers are selling to brand-loyal Paradigm buyers on names and looks alone. I think their success can be attributed to Paradigm owners graduating from product line to product line, looking for the next step up and always turning to the last place they bought first. And there's nothing wrong with that, I guess, might not get you the best value though.

As for the subs...well...with all the excellent DIY subwoofer kits on the market today, you'll have a hard time convincing me to drop $3000 on a subwoofer when I could run three or four, 1500 watt, 18" bad-ass subs for the same price, often with built in Parametric eq's, and have cash left over to buy U-571.

[Woochifer]

I do like most of their bookshelf models at the prices they go for, but the exception has to be the Signature series.
When I heard the S2 and S4 originally, I was floored at how great they sounded. I thought Paradigm hit a home run. But I was also under the impression that these were only a few hundred more than their Studio counterparts.
At double the price they're just not better enough IMO, not compared to other similarly priced speakers.
Paradigm's growing their business, maybe someday they'll tweak these speakers, or sell them cheaper, but IMO, right now, the speakers are selling to brand-loyal Paradigm buyers on names and looks alone. I think their success can be attributed to Paradigm owners graduating from product line to product line, looking for the next step up and always turning to the last place they bought first. And there's nothing wrong with that, I guess, might not get you the best value though.

To a large degree, I think that the Signature series came out in response to long-time pressure from dealers for Paradigm to come out with a higher priced model line. You might be right about Paradigm owners looking for the next step up, and if they already own the Studio series, where can they go next but to a different company? I guess having the Signature series available is one way for a dealer to retain a customer and keep them upgrading. But in a way, Paradigm might have botched the release on the Signature series. When I first saw pictures of the Signature prototypes over two years ago, it seemed that Paradigm was definitely moving upscale. The very different look on the new drivers, the more substantial binding posts, the pristine finishes on the new cabinets, all pointed to a higher level of quality.

But, after waiting nearly a year for the Sigs to come out, Paradigm surprised all of us by announcing the v.3 Studio series, which came out months before the Signatures did. I think that might have been a mistake, because after those photos of the Signature prototypes circulated around the internet for about a year, Paradigm comes out with the Studio v.3 series, and from outside appearances those models looks very similar to the Signatures. Turns out that much IS actually similar between the two model lines, except that the Signature series uses modified versions of those drivers and has better bracing in the cabinetry (which in actuality resemble what Paradigm used in the Studio v.2 series).

From what I've seen, Paradigm doesn't normally waste a lot of time between product announcement and shipping the new models to stores. Paradigm announced the Studio v.3 series last June, by July most of the remaining v.2 models were gone, and by August the v.3s were in stores. They displayed the Signatures in summer 2002 and the speakers didn't arrive in stores until last November. In the meantime, people had already heard the Studio v.3 series and expected big things from the Sigs. I'm not altogether sure that the Sigs met up to the hype. People who listen to them generally like them, but compared to the hype and Paradigm's own track record of performance value, it might not offer a big enough step up. As it stands, the perception is that the Signature series is basically an improved version of the Studios, rather than the Studio series being a value-conscious version of the Signatures. Because of this, it might have been better for the Sigs to come out first, and then roll out the new Studios.


As for the subs...well...with all the excellent DIY subwoofer kits on the market today, you'll have a hard time convincing me to drop $3000 on a subwoofer when I could run three or four, 1500 watt, 18" bad-ass subs for the same price, often with built in Parametric eq's, and have cash left over to buy U-571.

I was surprised when Paradigm updated the Servo 15 and bumped the price up by $700 (nearly 50% higher than before). I heard that the Signature Servo was a monster of a sub, but not a lot of people were willing to pony up $3,300 for that unit when the much more affordable (and comparably designed) Servo 15 cost $1,500. Unlike now, the Signature Servo had different hardware and a clear performance advantage over the previous Servo 15 at that time, but you're still talking about subs that can both go well into the mid-teen Hz range. At $1,500 I thought that the previous Servo 15 was expensive, but still an excellent value. It had plenty of depth, and not a whole lot of truly comprable competition in its price range (15" sealed subs with 400w and servo control). The new Servo 15 can go deeper, its amp is now 1,200w, and the driver can move a lot more air than before (about a 2" stroke, which is nearly double what the previous driver did), pretty much the same hardware that's in the Signature Servo. Of course, now you have to pay $2,200. But, it's still $1,100 cheaper than the Signature Servo (albeit w/o the gloss wood finish).

As far as DIY goes, you can build a 1,200w sealed sub around Adire's 15" Tumult driver for around $1,300. Still amazes me that they were offering the finished 300 watt 15" Daeva sub for $600, considering that the parts alone cost about that much. The only thing that would be missing is Paradigm's servo control, which does come in handy in a sealed box because distortion is an inherent weakness with sealed subs and the servo is designed to reduce distortion.

[Geoffcin]

Ok Why is the Paradigm Signature Servo $3200 American, and the Servo 15 is only like $1500 American? Did I miss something? The specs are almost identicle! WHY!!!??? Ok there must be some reason. Or, is this just another marketing ploy from Paradigm to get another couple hundred bucks out of people by slapping a different label on it? Ok I'm pretty confused can someone help me here? :confused:

Usually the engineers are working with "cost no object" for components. The people who buy signature/statement products like the Signature Servo know that they are buying only incrementally better performance, but are willing to pay for the best.

Signature products are worth every penny, to those who buy them. For everyone else they are good too; as the tech that is developed making them is often filtered down to other more affordable products.

[Feanor]

Yep there are other companies that are far worse than this..Audio Note is a prime example.Being the AN shill that RGA is maybe he can give some examples of the different levels of the $ difference of the different levels AN charges for there speakers.
Never more true than with Audio Note. The price of a basic model goes up 2-3x while the design remains blatantly the same. Difference seem to be silver wires, higher grade capacitors, etc.. The extra cost to AN could hardly exceed $100 per pair but the price goes up exponentially.

[Feanor]

... The people who buy signature/statement products like the Signature Servo know that they are buying only incrementally better performance, but are willing to pay for the best.

Signature products are worth every penny, to those who buy them. ...
A product that has to be sold to everybody for the same price is called a "commodity". No producer or vendor wants their product to be a commodity: they want to sell it for more to the people who are willing to pay more.

Of course, if the product is obviously identical the maker can't ask the rich buyer for more -- they aren't that stupid. So he enhances the product in various, often trivial ways that cost him much less than the increase in mark-up he hopes for. This way his rich buyer can feel he's getting more and will pay more -- never mind that the actual improvement is slight or nil.

[Geoffcin]

A product that has to be sold to everybody for the same price is called a "commodity". No producer or vendor wants their product to be a commodity: they want to sell it for more to the people who are willing to pay more.

Of course, if the product is obviously identical the maker can't ask the rich buyer for more -- they aren't that stupid. So he enhances the product in various, often trivial ways that cost him much less than the increase in mark-up he hopes for. This way his rich buyer can feel he's getting more and will pay more -- never mind that the actual improvement is slight or nil.

That's a rather crass opinion of Paradigm, and audio manufacturers in general. I don't own Paradigm speakers, but I respect Paradigm as a company. I'm sure that a lot of engineering went into the Signature Servo. Statement products like this represent the absolute best that a company can produce.

I'll agree with you on one point; People who are willing to pay more are not stupid. On the contrary, the audiophiles that I know are some of the most discerning people on earth. From the olive oil on their salads, to the quality of their carpeting, a lot of them NEVER settle for second best. Most of them are very successful businessmen, and I would dare say that NOBODY could pull the wool over their respective eyes with a simple trivial change. That being said, when you get to the level of the Servo 15, there's only just an incremental advancement possible. Statement buyers understand this, and are willing to purchase with eyes, and ears wide open.

[bacchanal]

Usually the engineers are working with "cost no object" for components.

Engineers very very rarely work without a cost (profitability) parameter. If this ever happens it is usually early in the design stage, and certain aspects of the design are not necessarily intended for production.
Engineers are trained to maximize profitability just like everyone else in the world.

[RGA]

Never more true than with Audio Note. The price of a basic model goes up 2-3x while the design remains blatantly the same. Difference seem to be silver wires, higher grade capacitors, etc.. The extra cost to AN could hardly exceed $100 per pair but the price goes up exponentially.

AN believes that parts quality is important to the sound of products and after LISTENING to several speakers in their given lines it is clear they are correct. And at the end of the day the consumer is given the choice to buy the <2K version of the E or a host of E's going all the way to the $99,000.00version. Of course it isn't WORTH $99,000.00 if you don't have $99,000.00 This amount to Bill Gates is like $100.00 MAYBE to people like us. And all AN needs to do is compare it to other speakers at around the same price. So gee you can look at the basic E as stripped down 100K speaker - like the Studio is a stripped down Signature if we follow the previous analogy.

Go to Soundhounds listen to the E/L and then the E/spe - the price difference is relatively small. The sound difference is not. The E/L is about $3kCdn listen to it against the Paradigm monitor 9 or 11 - then go from the E/L to the E/Spe(about $1k more or so) Go from the monitor 9 or 11 to the Studio 100 which is also about $1k more. They carry both lines you can hear em in four different rooms and you can set them up yourself if you don't trust them - I always check their connections and the positioning "fairness" used. Come back and tell me which is more noticeable as an "upgrade" to sound for your extra grand. Just because you can't SEE where the money has gone - by George you can HEAR where it has gone. If it takes more than a minute I'd be surprised.

Value, price, and cost are things for individuals to decide - no one forces you to buy the statement product of a company - and I'm not sure why if a company makes an expensive product they're bashed. If the expensive product is as good or better(or just comparable) to the other guy's expensive product then that's all that matters to me. It's nice to be able to buy the AN E/L which will have a house presentation to the AN E/Sogon. The B&W602 sounds nothing like Model Nautilus however.

[Geoffcin]

Engineers very very rarely work without a cost (profitability) parameter. If this ever happens it is usually early in the design stage, and certain aspects of the design are not necessarily intended for production.
Engineers are trained to maximize profitability just like everyone else in the world.

But there's much more freedom on the statment products, as the buyer is willing to pay the extra costs. Of course Paradigm is making even greater profit on the Signature Servo than the Servo 15 too, but the buyers also undertstand this.

[bacchanal]

A product that has to be sold to everybody for the same price is called a "commodity". No producer or vendor wants their product to be a commodity: they want to sell it for more to the people who are willing to pay more.

Of course, if the product is obviously identical the maker can't ask the rich buyer for more -- they aren't that stupid. So he enhances the product in various, often trivial ways that cost him much less than the increase in mark-up he hopes for. This way his rich buyer can feel he's getting more and will pay more -- never mind that the actual improvement is slight or nil.


You're forgetting form over function. Even if the Signiture series is only a trivial increase in sound quality (I don't know since I haven't listened to them), they still have significant aesthetic improvements. People with money often are willing to pay real money for aesthetics. It may seem trivial to you (for the price), but if you're loaded and your spoilt wife just can't stand the thought of veneer...which speaker are you going to go for :D

[bacchanal]

But there's much more freedom on the statment products, as the buyer is willing to pay the extra costs. Of course Paradigm is making even greater profit on the Signature Servo than the Servo 15 too, but the buyers also undertstand this.

If there is so much more freedom, I doubt the signatrue series would look just like the studio series and re-use many similar/same/redesigned components. Engineers are creative people who like to design things.

I guess it's all relative

[Geoffcin]

If there is so much more freedom, I doubt the signatrue series would look just like the studio series and re-use many similar/same/redesigned components. Engineers are creative people who like to design things.

I guess it's all relative

On what they are willing to go with. I'm not privy to Paradigms business model.

After reading a post by Woochifer though, it seems that by reading the timeline that the Sig Series might have had tech developed for it that was so good they decided to incorperate it into thier other models before the Sig went to market. I would praise Paradigm for this, as it looks like they came up with some winning tech and rushed into the more affordable line. Either way it looks like these subs are pushing the bar ever higher. That's good for all of us.

[Feanor]

...
Value, price, and cost are things for individuals to decide - no one forces you to buy the statement product of a company - and I'm not sure why if a company makes an expensive product they're bashed. If the expensive product is as good or better(or just comparable) to the other guy's expensive product then that's all that matters to me. It's ...
Value is in the eyes of the purchaser, and if s/he is content to pay the difference in price for the difference in quality -- however small or large, what does it matter what it cost the vendor?

I'm not certainly not saying the the Signature isn't better than the Reference, nor that the more expensive ANs are better than the lower end models: I'm only saying you pay more and more to get less and less difference. And of all industries, high-end audio has worked the limit of diminishing returns better than any other I can think of.

By the way, I certainly would like to visit Soundhounds, and near that end of the country someday, I will. I'd also hear the Audio Note offerings, maybe in T.O., but I strongly suspect they are of a quite different character from the Magneplanars and other planars and ribbons designs that I favor.

[bacchanal]

On what they are willing to go with. I'm not privy to Paradigms business model.

After reading a post by Woochifer though, it seems that by reading the timeline that the Sig Series might have had tech developed for it that was so good they decided to incorperate it into thier other models before the Sig went to market. I would praise Paradigm for this, as it looks like they came up with some winning tech and rushed into the more affordable line. Either way it looks like these subs are pushing the bar ever higher. That's good for all of us.


Wait a sec. Paradigm revises and makes slight improvements upon the studio line, puts it in fancier cabinets to make the signature line at double the price. Some of this revised tech (redesigned sub driver) ends up in the studio line at a premium price, because few people wanted to put up the inflated prices of the signature line (sig servo).

I think wooch made the point that the sig series are basically hyped up studio revisions...not to be confused with a new line pushing the envelope and bringing new technology to a price point where it didn't previously exist.

Certainly the signature series pushes the performance envelope of the paradigm cataloge, but it hasn't helped the price/performance ratio for paradigm or for the studio series specifically.

It seems that they were basically trying to expand their product line to a higher end (dollar wise) market they had not yet tapped into. This seems to have been more of a marketing driven goal than an engineering/performance driven one.

If you aren't aware I own some studio40 v.2's that I really like. Am I biased, sure. But, from my point of view the paradigm studio series is very competitive in it's price range against many other manufacturers. When you get into the signature series price range, there are a many other alternatives to paradigm that deserve consideration.

[Woochifer]

Wait a sec. Paradigm revises and makes slight improvements upon the studio line, puts it in fancier cabinets to make the signature line at double the price. Some of this revised tech (redesigned sub driver) ends up in the studio line at a premium price, because few people wanted to put up the inflated prices of the signature line (sig servo).

I think wooch made the point that the sig series are basically hyped up studio revisions...not to be confused with a new line pushing the envelope and bringing new technology to a price point where it didn't previously exist.

Certainly the signature series pushes the performance envelope of the paradigm cataloge, but it hasn't helped the price/performance ratio for paradigm or for the studio series specifically.


I'm not altogether sure what followed what -- basic chicken and egg question. The Signature series makes some very substantive changes from the Studio v.2 (changes to the driver design, driver size, crossover frequency, port location, binding posts, cabinetry, etc.), and the prototypes for the Sigs were revealed about a year before the Studio v.3 series was announced. When the pictues of the Signatures made their way around, I remember the reaction was generally that Paradigm looked like they were going upscale, and a step up from the existing Studio series. Once the Studio v.3 series came out, people remarked how different they looked from the v.2 series AND how similar they looked to the Signatures.

In my assessment of the Signature S2, I didn't feel that the speakers represented enough of an improvement over the Studio 20 v.3 for its $2k list price. But, for me it says more for how great a value the Studio 20 v.3 , as opposed to any deficiency with the S2. To assess how the S2 justifies its price, the comparison has to be directly done with similarly priced speakers.

With the subwoofer, Paradigm had already introduced the Seismic series to take over the $1,500 price point from the Servo 15. Moving the Servo 15 up to the $2,200 price point made sense given that the new model makes some substantial improvements over the previous model (superior driver with far more air movement per stroke, much more powerful amp, deeper extension). Unfortunately for people looking in the $1,500 price point, they no longer have that 15" sealed sub option available to thhem.

On performance value, the Studio series prices went up 15% to 25% across the board when the v.3 series was introduced. Compared to the v.2 series, whether or not this represents an improvement to the price/performance equation depends on how you view the audible changes that Paradigm made to the Studio series.


It seems that they were basically trying to expand their product line to a higher end (dollar wise) market they had not yet tapped into. This seems to have been more of a marketing driven goal than an engineering/performance driven one.

You very well might be right. If you look at the speakers themselves, without listening to them, the Studio v.3 in some ways less ruggedly constructed than the Studio v.2 models. However, in my listenings they definitely make strides in just about every way in terms of the audio performance. The Signature series models weigh about the same as the equivalent Studio v.2 models.

I think that there was an engineering/performance goal of making a series of speakers that improved upon the existing Studio v.2 series. The market driven goal was determining whether this improvement would be sold as its own series, as an improved version of the Studios, or both. Paradigm obviously opted for both. The original rumor when the Signature series was getting developed was that the Studio v.3 series would double in cost from the v.2. End result was a slightly more expensive Studio series and the 2x-3x more expensive Signature series, so on average that rumor was sorta right.

[meephis]

Why did they increase the price so much with the V3's anyways?
hey right now its
RGA-1630 posts
WOOCHIFER-1630 posts
kind of off topic but cool that you have the same #

[RGA]

Yikes and the 16,000 posts for the years before they converted this forum to this style.

Time to get a life - and sadly I post less here than some other forums.

[Feanor]

...I think that there was an engineering/performance goal of making a series of speakers that improved upon the existing Studio v.2 series. The market driven goal was determining whether this improvement would be sold as its own series, as an improved version of the Studios, or both. Paradigm obviously opted for both. The original rumor when the Signature series was getting developed was that the Studio v.3 series would double in cost from the v.2. End result was a slightly more expensive Studio series and the 2x-3x more expensive Signature series, so on average that rumor was sorta right.
Despite the convoluted series of events, I think it comes back to what I said above: Signature vs. Studio, V.3 is is another instance charging the customer a lot more money for a relatively modest -- or tiny -- improvement, at least with regard to sound quality.

Of course, better vinishes, greater cabinet mass, (maybe just ballast vs. bracing?), and prestige are something a given customer might value and be willing to pay for.

[Woochifer]

Why did they increase the price so much with the V3's anyways?
hey right now its
RGA-1630 posts
WOOCHIFER-1630 posts
kind of off topic but cool that you have the same #

The price increase is actually in line with what other speaker manufacturers have done with their most recent model revisions. Given that Paradigm had held the line on prices since the original Studio series came out in 1996, and the v.3 models represent a more radical change than between the v.1 and v.2, I don't think that a 15% to 25% price increase is that far out of line. The 50% price increase on the Servo 15 is a lot steeper, but that's also because the new Servo 15 is an even more radical step up from the previous version.

I don't know if it's that cool that I got THAT many posts! But, it is time well spent, even if I've now caught up to RGA's volume.