Raspy Vinyl Record Help

[NuttyBuddy]

Hello! This is my first post here.

I'm hoping someone here can explain some issues I have as I take on the task of recording my vinyl record collection onto CDs. My first issue is the poor sound quality of a small few of my records. I'm not talking about the usual wear and tear crackle issues, but rather issues that were present when first played when I bought them. I have about 500 45s that I collected back in the mid 70s to 1980, and about 200 LPs

Some of these records produce a raspy crackly sound when the sound breaches a certain level. This is short MP3 cut from a Barry Manilow tune that demonstrates this issue:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/raspy.mp3
This record has been played a few times, but I'm certain this effect was present from the get-go. My standards were pretty low back in the 70s.

I'm recording both sides of my 45s. I've come across some B-sides which I have never played with the same issue. Here is a really bad one I came across last week. It is a short B-side MP3 excerpt of a Janis Ian single that never, ever had been played previously:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/raspy2.mp3
Image of the record:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/310154.JPG
This is a 7 minute song on a 45, so that may have something to do with it. I suspect these problems are manufacturing defects. I'd just like someone to confirm this....or maybe a turntable cartridge replacement might resolve this? Anyone dealt with this issue?

Now to cracks, yesterday I recorded a B-side of a Bad Company 45. This is at the beginning, and again, this side had never been played before:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/cracky.mp3
This drove me nuts! How can a never before played record sound so worn?

Most of the records are recording very well. I'm using a Pioneer PL-670 direct drive turntable with its original cartridge, routing it through a Pioneer receiver, and out to my PC through an SB Audugy input. I use GoldWave to record and edit the WAV file, and I use Groove Mechanic to clean the pops and clicks (it does a pretty good job too! - but it can't fix that Bad Company dissaster). All my records have been well maintained, all in their original sleeves, and stored at room temperature in the upright position

Thanks,
Buddy

[royphil345]

Hi,

I'm sure someone will recommend a good cleaning method. Records can get very dirty just sitting around a few years. I won't give advice here, as my cleaning methods are crude at best. (a little dish soap and tap water only when absolutely necessary) Most of my records are used, so I figured any distortion problems were from past abuse (played with a damaged stylus or heavy stylus pressure). Just one play with a damaged stylus can ruin a record forever. Though, I do have a few records (mostly but not only 45s) that look absolutely mint and still have distortion. So maybe a bad pressing? I haven't had the problem to quite that extent though. Could be the MP3 compression or digital noise cancelation is making things worse? I also noticed that my troublesome records did sound better as I bought better tracking cartridges, but it didn't completely "cure" them. I didn't think the Bad Company sounded so bad... Sounded "extra authentic"... lol Sounds like a good cleaning might help this one. Are you sure your stylus is good? Better safe than sorry here.

[BRANDONH]

Try this product it may help:
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AGRUVGLIDE&variation=&aitem=1&mitem=3

[E-Stat]

Hello! This is my first post here.

I'm hoping someone here can explain some issues I have as I take on the task of recording my vinyl record collection onto CDs. My first issue is the poor sound quality of a small few of my records. I'm not talking about the usual wear and tear crackle issues, but rather issues that were present when first played when I bought them.
Welcome to the forum, NB. There are two possible answers to your question, either individually or collectively. Plastic is a natural conductor and dust magnet. Even new records can exhibit a collection of dust that can cause this noise. I've used a VPI record cleaning machine for over twenty years to address that. While I'm not suggesting going out and spending $450 on one of these machines, you might find someone or a dealer nearby who has one who will let you use it to clean your records prior to recording.

The other cause was the use of recycled vinyl used to press many a pop recording back in the 80s. As opposed to "virgin vinyl", recycled vinyl contains some of the paper from the labels and sounds noisy from the get go even after extensive cleaning.

rw

[NuttyBuddy]

Thanks for the feedback!

The most cleaning I've ever done is with Discwasher fluid. I've just discovered the machines talked about on this site. I've never seen them locally. As a matter of fact, I did a web search for "record cleaning" which lead me to this forum.

Would the lower cost manual Nitty Gritty machines fit my cleaning needs? I need one that will do 45s also. Before I found this site, I found this page that shows a do-it-yourself cleaning machine:
http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/cleaner/cleaner.html
Any thoughts on that one? How about that cleaning fluid formula they suggest?
I don't mind the manual method of cleaning. My recording to CD process is not very fast.

Now about magnetic cartridges and my Pioneer PL-670 turntable. This turntable does not appear to have the normal, mount from above, cartridge, but rather a simple plug from behind unit - I don't even know if you'd call it a cartridge. Here is my turntable:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/PC120003.JPG

With most of my records, the sound quality I get from this is fine for me, but I know the stylus has a lot of mileage on it (the original) and I read here that a worn stylus can damage records. Any suggestions on updating it with a decent replacement that is reputable and gives comparative sound quality to the orginal? I don't even know how and if the arms tracking and anti-skating settings are adjustable. The swivel of the arm reads "Dynamic Resonance Absorber". The silver cylinder on the arm is marked "DRA" and I guess it is what adjusts the tracking force by sliding it forward or back. By the back of the arm is a label that appears to have a "T4P" logo that reads "factory adjusted for optimum value...-tracking force, -anti-skating". There's also a pictured meter on that label pointed to 1.25 on a scale of 0 to 2. Is this thing adjustable with a new cartridge, or do I need a new "real" turntable that I can adjust? Anyone know about this turntable?

Thanks again!

Buddy

[royphil345]

That's what's called a P-Mount cartridge. That's what the T4P means. The sticker is saying that the tracking force and anti-skate are factory set at 1.25 grams. There's probably a way to adjust these, but from the picture I couldn't tell you how. Might be that the adjustment isn't even calibrated (screws + springs) and you would need a stylus pressure guage to do it properly. This "Dynamic Resistance Absorber" seems to be something else, but if there is a weight that slides up and down the tonearm that would adjust the tracking force. Sorry I can't be more help, maybe someone else has had experience with a table like this.

Anyhow... The Cartridge looks like some sort of Audio Technica. I tried one that looked just like that years ago and I did notice it had a tendancy towards mistracking and distortion. While writing this, I just remembered that I HAVE an Audio Technica cartridge that looks exactly like the one on your table. Came installed on a turntable I bought not too long ago. The guy who sold me the table on e-Bay said it was new, but I have no proof of this. I already had a cartridge that I wanted to use on the new table, so the first thing I did was remove the Audio Technica without even trying it. It's a P-Mount with an adapter so it could also be used on a standard-mount turntable like mine. There are more than a few Audio Technica models that look the same. I looked this one up and it has a .4 X .7 elliptical stylus. Might be a little better (and newer) than what's on there now. Many stock turntable cartridges used a conical stylus that won't track quite as well. If you want it, I'll send it to you for free. Just e-Mail me your address. royphil345@yahoo.com If you want to try and find a P-Mount cartridge that tracks a little better, there's a Shure M92E that sells for $30.00-$40.00 There's a Stanton in the same price-range. And some Ortofons that cost a little more. Think you can order any Grado Prestige Series cartridge as a P-Mount, but many people have problems with Grados having a hum on direct drive Tables. Don't know if cartridge weight is part of the T4P standard. If it is, you could plug in anything that will track at 1.25 grams without having to worry about adjustments. If not, the different cartridge weight would effect your tracking force.

[NuttyBuddy]

Thanks for the explanation RP!

The bottom of my cartridge reads Pioneer 295T, but your right, it sure looks like an Audio-Technica now that I've looked at them. How about the Audio-Technica AT301EP cartridge? It's a T4P. Here is a review showing some specs:
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.363/it.A/id.214/.f
How do those specs look? I've seen it in the $30 to $40 range.

or the even higher spec AT-316EP?:
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc.9/category.-109/it.A/id.215/.f

Buddy

[E-Stat]

Would the lower cost manual Nitty Gritty machines fit my cleaning needs? I need one that will do 45s also.
While I don't have any direct experience with the NG machines, I am told they do a decent job.


Before I found this site, I found this page that shows a do-it-yourself cleaning machine:
http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/cleaner/cleaner.html
Any thoughts on that one? How about that cleaning fluid formula they suggest?
Their DIY machine looks great and seems to capture the essence of the VPI units. I've been using a similar fluid formula for decades. I use 91% isopropyl in a somewhat lower concentration (10%) than the 25% recommendation.



Now about magnetic cartridges and my Pioneer PL-670 turntable.
I see you got a very thorough answer about the P-mounts. I never used one.

rw

[royphil345]

I did a search on your Pioneer 296T and found that the replacement stylus is an Audio Technica (Pioneer must have rebranded some) and it has a conical tip. The price is about $25.00 so it would probably be worth the extra $10.00 or so to upgrade to an elliptical or biradial tip.

The one you had a link to with the .4 X .7 tip looks like the exact same cartridge I'm offering you for free. Although, this one is called an AT91E. Was harder to find info on this one. Must be discontinued. But I was able to confirm it has a .4 X .7 elliptical tip. It really does look new and has the seperate stylus guard on it that most people would lose if it were actually in use. Also included with the turntable was a nicer but older cartridge with a bad stylus that must have been on it originally. Guy seemed honest enough, LOVE the turntable I bought.

If you don't want to take a chance on that one (wouldn't blame you, I'd probably end up replacing the stylus if I wasn't sure ) I would probably give the Shure a shot or one of the Ortofons. Like I said, I tried a similar Audio Technica in the past (Think it was even the nicer one with the smaller .3 X .7 stylus) and I really did notice a tendency toward mistracking and distortion like you're having problems with. Just wasn't impressed + would try another brand for about the same price.


Let me know if you wanna' try the free AT

[NuttyBuddy]

Thanks E-Stat and RP!

I think I'll try to build a cleaner. I have a old spare Sony turntable and a cannister vac somewhere around here. Now to figure out where I get the correct cleaner fluids to mix!

Rp, I think I'll try another brand of p-mount cartridge. This distortion problem with ATs you described convinces me to take another route. Now I wonder which way I should go??? I'm willing to dish out up to $75 for a p-mount cartridge, maybe even reach a "little" higher if significant benefits are a result. This Ortofon?:
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ORSER320
or is that more than I really need?

Any suggestions are appreciated!

Buddy

[royphil345]

How much cartridge you need for that table is a tough call. I was going to recommend something more like the OMP 5 E http://www.ortofon.com/html/profile.asp?body_magnetic_technical_data.asp This should perform much better than the Audio Technica with the conical stylus. Now the problem is that the Ortofon 320 you have a link to weighs 5 grams and the OMP 5 E weighs 6 grams. So much for my theory of cartridge weight being part of the T4P standard. So if you change cartridges, you're going to have to figure out how to set the stylus pressure or figure out how much the current Audio Technica weighs and buy something that weighs the same. Of course, Audio Technica seems to be the only brand that doesn't include cartridge weight as part of the specs. Sorry to add to your troubles... I know I'm supposed to be helping!!!! Maybe the easiest thing in this case would be to pick up one of the newer Audio Technicas that look (and probably weigh) the same as the old one with a better tip. Sorry again for steering you in circles!!! In most cases setting the stylus pressure isn't even an issue though.

[NuttyBuddy]

Sounds to me that any T4P cartridge should work on a T4P turntable since T4P turntables offer no adjustment for pressure:
http://www.kabusa.com/ttspec.htm
("P-Mount T4P" near the bottom)

"P-mount is a coordinated system devised in the '80's by which a standardized tonearm designated T4P was designed, and a standardized cartridge was designed. When a Pmount cartridge is plugged into a T4P tonearm, the alignment is perfect and the tracking force is perfect. The arm requires no adjustments. This was perhaps the best system ever devised to take the problems of tonearm set up out of the hands of the basic consumer. Tonearm set up continues to be one of the most common problems the consumer faces in getting the best sound from his turntable."

Am I wrong?

[royphil345]

"P-mount is a coordinated system devised in the '80's by which a standardized tonearm designated T4P was designed, and a standardized cartridge was designed. When a Pmount cartridge is plugged into a T4P tonearm, the alignment is perfect and the tracking force is perfect. The arm requires no adjustments. This was perhaps the best system ever devised to take the problems of tonearm set up out of the hands of the basic consumer. Tonearm set up continues to be one of the most common problems the consumer faces in getting the best sound from his turntable."

That's what I thought I read the whole idea of T4P was in the first place. Then I saw the different cartridge weights and I wasn't sure. The info you found on T4P is just what I was looking for but didn't find. Didn't want to steer you wrong.

When you think about it, the cartridge weight doesn't mean that much anyway. It would make a difference if the weight was toward the front or back of the cartridge. (the tonearm is like a lever) The cartridge bodies could even vary in length and the needle still hit the same place.

Think if you go with either one of those Ortofons, you'll notice a nice improvement. Like I said, as I moved up to better cartridges I did notice that my "problem" records sounded better. Although, not completely "cured". As far as which one to choose, that's up to you. I feel that the OMP 5 E would be a good match for the table and wouldn't be as likely to sound harsh with a budget table + preamp. Think it would be a real improvement over what you have now. The pricier one would probably sound a little clearer, have a little wider frequency range, but could end up sounding a bit "edgy" depending on other equipment.

Good luck on your mission of transferring all of your vinyl to digital!!!

[risabet]

Why would you do this to some fine analog music?
:(

[NuttyBuddy]

Why would you do this to some fine analog music?
:(
What, transfer my analog to digital? Simple. I have two connected 400 CD changers that play my music randomly throughout the house. The only way to play my hundreds of analog records randomly, continuously, and without my intervention is to digitalize them.

My quest to create my own cleaning solution hit a snag as my local chemical supply company requires me to have a business license to purchase lab grade isopropyl alcohol and distilled triple deononized water. I didn't even get to asking about the surfacant. Guess I'll have to buy the retail record cleaner. :mad:

Buddy

[BRANDONH]

Nutty Buddy,
see my earlier post on the Gruv-Glide record cleaner below is a link.
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AGRUVGLIDE&variation=&aitem=1&mitem=3

[NuttyBuddy]

Nutty Buddy,
see my earlier post on the Gruv-Glide record cleaner below is a link.
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AGRUVGLIDE&variation=&aitem=1&mitem=3

Hi Brandonh,

Thanks,

How would the Gruv-Glide results compare to the Nitty Gritty and Disk Doctor cleaning solutions? Pretty close? Geez, Royphil just uses dish soap and tap water!

[BRANDONH]

Hi Brandonh,

Thanks,

How would the Gruv-Glide results compare to the Nitty Gritty and Disk Doctor cleaning solutions? Pretty close? Geez, Royphil just uses dish soap and tap water!

I not sure how it would compare with the other two products above but my friend is a D.J. and he recommended Gruv-Glide to me.

[royphil345]

I would say that the Gruv-Glide looks more like a treatment that will also clean slightly dirty records. Think a deep cleaning with something like the Nitty-Gritty would be much better for records that haven't been cleaned in years. Not knocking the Gruv-Glide at all. I'm sure records deteriorate somehow over the years and a treatment may help.

Think in the future, I'll just add a little 91% alcohol to my mild dish soap solution and start using distilled water. I really should stop putting tap water on my records. (Could leave some mineral deposits)

[musicoverall]

I would say that the Gruv-Glide looks more like a treatment that will also clean slightly dirty records. Think a deep cleaning with something like the Nitty-Gritty would be much better for records that haven't been cleaned in years. Not knocking the Gruv-Glide at all. I'm sure records deteriorate somehow over the years and a treatment may help.

You are absolutely correct. Gruv-Glide is NOT a cleaning solution, it's a record preservative. No one should ever use this stuff to clean an LP, especially not with the two supplied pads. They'll get dirty after one use and then be useless. Gruv-Glide should only be used on clean records, as a preservative and an anti-static.

I use it religiously. As the name suggests, it helps the cartridge to ride the groove of an LP rather than dig a trench! But whatever cleaning method you use, this stuff goes on LAST! If your LP sleeve clings to the LP like a magnet, it's time for some Gruv-Glide. Great stuff!

[Woochifer]

Actually, the problem in those sound clips that you posted sounds to me more like defects in the record. No amount of cleaning, preserving, or cartridge aligning will recover it. Typically, this kind of distortion and sibilance gets worse as the needle towards the end of a record side, and it results from a record getting pressed from a worn out stamper. A stamper is only supposed to press a certain number of records before it gets discarded and a new one forged from the master disc, and often the major record companies would overproduce using worn stampers.

When I was buying LPs on a regular basis, I would get something like this on roughly 1 out of every 20 records that I bought. In every case, I exchanged it for another copy and the majority of the time the replacement copy did not have this issue. Unfortunately, it's a crap shoot whether or not you wind up with a record that was pressed with a fresh stamper or one that should have been tossed several hundred pressings ago. Since LP manufacturing's no longer a high volume endeavor, I doubt that you'll see this happen with newer LPs.

[NuttyBuddy]

Thanks Woochifer for the explanation! I suspected it was bad pressings, but never knew why they sounded crappy.

I attained most of my collection from 1975 to 1980 on a paper route allowance. I have a lot of singles because they were under $1.00 in those days and that's what I could afford. As a matter of fact I managed to collect all of the Billboard top 100 pop singles for the years 1976, 1979 and 1980. Got most of my albums in 1979 and 1980 when I got a real job.

I have a bunch of Capitol promotionals from that period and a bit earlier that I have never played. My Uncle used to work for Capitol Records and he got promos by the box load. Those promos were/are solid. I can't remember hearing a bad promo (except picture discs). Funny, at the time, I thought they were worthless since they were "not for sale" and sometimes I treated them as such. When I was about 12, I remember him giving me a box of promos which contained about 5 Instant Karma (John Lennon) 45s that were blank on the back side. I sold a couple for a dime each and treated the rest like crap. I have none of those now and won't even mention how much they would be worth today. I remember having an early Beatle promo 45 that had two songs on each side. Just a memory today.

[Ray H]

Bad pressings and perhaps coupled with wear from a damaged stylus*. Try the usual suggestions as above, but be prepared that maybe the most egregious offenders in your collection are toast*.

*And, maybe not - but at a price. Conical styli (such as originally supplied with your AudioTechnica/Pioneer cartridge) "ride" relatively high in the groove walls. If the damage is in that area, a hyper-elliptical or line contact stylus may be a problem solver since they ride much lower - often sufficiently so to contact only virgin wall. That's the good news. The bad news is that these styli are typically only available on better cartridges. I'd be giving serious consideration to one of the Grado "Prestige" series of cartridges that are available in TP4 configuration. All Grados have elliptical styli, a somewhat "forward" lush midrange, smooth highs, and deep, tight, commanding bass response (They need about 100 hours of breaking-in before the music "flows", though!). The Prestige "Blue" at about $80.00 would be a good step up, though even the entry level Grado "Black" at $40.00 is well respected in its price class. The only problem area I'm familiar with in Grado's design is a tendency for hum if there's an unshielded AC source nearby. As an example, Grado Prestige cartridges used with Rega turntables and their unshielded Airpax synchronous AC motors, are especially susceptible to induced hum. If your Pioneer TT's power supply transformer is shielded (probable) and located at the far corner from the cartridge when the cartridge approaches its nearest distance from the spindle, you're probably good to go with a Grado. Shures are also excellent sonically, and are well shielded against induced hum. Shure also has a re-tipping service. Just send in the old stylus assembly (any conical or elliptical), and for $20.00, you get a new stylus or retipping with a two year warranty. Their line contact ("MR" - micro-ridge) styli cost $50.00 to re-tip. In either case, MUCH cheaper than buying a brand new stylus from a dealer. (I'm just saddened that Shure has shut down production of their V-15 cartridges...)

[Woochifer]

Thanks Woochifer for the explanation! I suspected it was bad pressings, but never knew why they sounded crappy.

I attained most of my collection from 1975 to 1980 on a paper route allowance. I have a lot of singles because they were under $1.00 in those days and that's what I could afford. As a matter of fact I managed to collect all of the Billboard top 100 pop singles for the years 1976, 1979 and 1980. Got most of my albums in 1979 and 1980 when I got a real job.

I have a bunch of Capitol promotionals from that period and a bit earlier that I have never played. My Uncle used to work for Capitol Records and he got promos by the box load. Those promos were/are solid. I can't remember hearing a bad promo (except picture discs). Funny, at the time, I thought they were worthless since they were "not for sale" and sometimes I treated them as such. When I was about 12, I remember him giving me a box of promos which contained about 5 Instant Karma (John Lennon) 45s that were blank on the back side. I sold a couple for a dime each and treated the rest like crap. I have none of those now and won't even mention how much they would be worth today. I remember having an early Beatle promo 45 that had two songs on each side. Just a memory today.

Actually, I remember that 45s were more inconsistent sounding in general than LPs. That could be because a hit single would sell in the millions over a short period, while the LP that contained that song would see much lower sales volume.

Promos are usually a safe bet because they are early production, and I remember some record companies pressed their promos on denser vinyl, which made them quieter. Since promos usually go out to record stores, radio stations, and reviewers, and they often get pressed in low volumes with generic covers, I would think that there's some incentive to make sure that they don't wind up with something that sounds distorted. Somewhat similar to how movie studios distribute "wetgate" prints (those struck from the original negative rather than a second or third copy) to premieres, press screenings, and high profile showcase theaters.

Some vinyl junkies swear by the early production LPs as the best sounding ones because they are likeliest to be pressed by a stamper that's not as far removed from the master disc as latter pressings might be. You can actually identify the stamper number used to press a particular record by looking at the blank space at the end of the LP.

This inconsistency and variability is both the beauty and the curse of vinyl.

[JoeE SP9]

Hello! This is my first post here.

I'm hoping someone here can explain some issues I have as I take on the task of recording my vinyl record collection onto CDs. My first issue is the poor sound quality of a small few of my records. I'm not talking about the usual wear and tear crackle issues, but rather issues that were present when first played when I bought them. I have about 500 45s that I collected back in the mid 70s to 1980, and about 200 LPs

Some of these records produce a raspy crackly sound when the sound breaches a certain level. This is short MP3 cut from a Barry Manilow tune that demonstrates this issue:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/raspy.mp3
This record has been played a few times, but I'm certain this effect was present from the get-go. My standards were pretty low back in the 70s.

I'm recording both sides of my 45s. I've come across some B-sides which I have never played with the same issue. Here is a really bad one I came across last week. It is a short B-side MP3 excerpt of a Janis Ian single that never, ever had been played previously:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/raspy2.mp3
Image of the record:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/310154.JPG
This is a 7 minute song on a 45, so that may have something to do with it. I suspect these problems are manufacturing defects. I'd just like someone to confirm this....or maybe a turntable cartridge replacement might resolve this? Anyone dealt with this issue?

Now to cracks, yesterday I recorded a B-side of a Bad Company 45. This is at the beginning, and again, this side had never been played before:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/cracky.mp3
This drove me nuts! How can a never before played record sound so worn?

Most of the records are recording very well. I'm using a Pioneer PL-670 direct drive turntable with its original cartridge, routing it through a Pioneer receiver, and out to my PC through an SB Audugy input. I use GoldWave to record and edit the WAV file, and I use Groove Mechanic to clean the pops and clicks (it does a pretty good job too! - but it can't fix that Bad Company dissaster). All my records have been well maintained, all in their original sleeves, and stored at room temperature in the upright position

Thanks,
Buddy

I have been buying and using vinyl since 1967. I have found that with vary rare exceptions 45's are not worth the bother. At a time when awful pressing of LP's was normal 45's were relegated to an even worse quality level. I felt this way even before CD's and "perfect sound forever". If you can't or won't spring for a vacuum cleaner the Alsop Orbitrac is the next best thing. Go to www.recorddoctor.com for a full selection of vinyl accessories.Incidently noise mostly in or confined to one channel was/is caused by an incorrect anti skating adjustment. This will generally be in the left channel. I have also found that copying LP's to CD-R using one of my PC's does work but something is lost in the conversion. The good sounding vinyl always sounds better that the converted CD-R. I have a dozen or so recordings purchased on vinyl and CD, in every instance the LP sounds better. This is one of the reasons I still play vinyl. The other reason being, a lot of my 2K plus vinyl collection will never be available on CD unless I record them to CD-R myself. I use a VPI HW-19Jr/Rega RB300/Ortofon or Shure. The Jr. is no longer stock. It is 85% to being a HW-19

[DnnRe8]

I just found this forum, I didn't know there was anything out there about old technology equipment. I read the leading post in this thread about a member having questions regarding recording his vinyl recordings onto CD's. I have questions about this procedure. First I didn't know it could be done. I have a large collection of LP's and reel/reel tapes that I made from these records. I will soon be moving into a travel trailer for full time living and won't have room for the old equipment that I have. Also, some of it has been damaged by a power surge, so it probably is not worth fixing, I don't know. However, I do have this large collection of music that I would like to transfer to CD's, but, as I said I didn't think that this was possible. If I can record this music to CD's my problem would be solved, as a decent CD system is not too pricey. Can anyone tell me the method of transfering the music from vinyl or tape onto CD's? What equipment would I have to buy? Is it a technical nightmare to do the transfer, and are the results worthwhile? In the original post on this thread the writer speaks of an "SB Audugy Input", "Gold wave" and WAV file. I have no idea what these things are, and my computer savy is little better than just getting on the internet and searching for things, mainly using the compter as a reference source. I don't know if it can be done with my computer also. It is a Gateway 600 Notebook computer. It has a single disc drive, but with the Roxio program I can make copies of CDs. If anyone out there can help me I would really appreciate it, since I hate to loose all of the music that I have on records and tapes. Most of the albums wee bought in the 70's and 80's, and I doubt that this music would be available on CD's today, plus the cost to replace all of it in CD's would be very high. I talked with a kid at a Radio Shack and asked him if I could do what I am proposing, but he was only about 20 years old and had not even heard of the artists and the records that I have in my collection. I doubt that he ever has seen a 33 1/3 or 45 record. Well that's about it. I am hoping that someone out there can provide me some basic help. From the posts that I have read on this forum it appears that there are a lot of knowledgeable people participating. And I can say with certainty that they know a lot more about the subject than I do, as I didn't even think such a thing was possible. Thanks for any help given. DGR

[JoeE SP9]

Does your laptop have a line level input? If it does simply connect a tape out connection from your receiver to the line level input on your PC. The cable would have RCA jacks on one end and a 1/8" mini jack on the other. If you only have a mic input you will need a cable with a matching transformer built in. Rat Shack used to carry this sort of thing. They may not anymore since they are moving upscale.

[royphil345]

I get very good results using my computer. Do it mostly for playing the CDs in the car. The CDs sound better than cassette tapes made on my stereo's tape deck. A better sound card in the computer (SoundBlaster Audigy is one) can yield better results, though in a laptop you can't really change the sound card unless you add an external one. If you have problems with background noise or bad sound, you may want to consider that. Will probably turn out that the laptop's built-in sound works well enough.

I think that most laptops only have a mic input and no line-in. Though, I think that the mic input is the same sensitivity as the line-in on most computers as long as the microphone boost is turned off in the Windows mixer (hence the need for the mic boost). Shouldn't need a transformer. Could hook a tape deck straight in. Or a turntable with a phono stage. If you're using the built-in phono stage of a preamp or receiver, you could use the tape out jacks from there. Just need the stereo 1/8" plug (for the mic / line-in input) to dual rca jacks adapter from Radio Shack.

There are many programs that can be used for CD recording / editing. I think the easiest one to start with is CD Wave Editor. It is very simple and no-frills. Has a recorder to record from the mic or line-in input to the hard drive in CD quality wav files. And a very simple and fast editor to split your recordings into tracks (so your CD isn't a long track 1). Have an older shareware version. Would be willing to share it. There are more advanced recording / editing programs with filters for reducing tape hiss and record pops etc... (GoldWave), but they can take a little longer to get the hang of. From there you just use your Roxio program. Add your wav tracks to create a music CD.

I think that should be enough to give you a general idea of how it's done. Let me know if there's any part of the process you still need help with.

[JoeE SP9]

I have been using Exact Audio Copy. A freeware app that I tried after John Atkinson mentioned it in Stereophile. It has some very nice features.

[NuttyBuddy]

Hi all.

Update. I went with the Ortofon OMP 5E cartridge. I haven't done much vinyl playing since, but some tests resulted in a fuller richer sound. The problem records still had their problems, as I expected. I'm not recording to CD again until I resolve the cleaning issue (with myself). I'm workin on it. Thanks for all your input!

As far as converting vinyl to CD. I find it easy and convenient. I can tell no difference in my played vinyl and the resulting WAV file I record on my desktop PC - granted I'm not a clear eared audiophile. I hear no added noise or hum. Very clean to me.

I use a SoundBalster Audigy (1) in my desktop. My computer hooks to the receiver to the tape in and outs. This allows me to play any sound input to my desktop (like a midi keyboard) out through my receiver while allowing me to input anything hooked to my receiver into my desktop. I have a tape deck that inputs only into my receiver so i can record my old tapes to CD also. Oh, and did I say I have a turntable? ;)

I use GoldWave software to record the vinyl into my PC and save it as A WAV file. I tested many free and shareware and decided to pay the, I believe, $40 one time fee for GoldWave. It offers free upgrades which I have done several times. It's easy to record a complete album and then break up the selections as individual pieces. You can easily trim the noisy lead ins and fade out the endings to eliminate that noise (which I do after recording the "raw" WAV file mentioned below but before the click cleaning).

I then archive that "raw" WAV file to a CD as is and store it away.

I then go another step with the WAV file in the desktop and clean it up with Coyote Groove Mechanic software. That program is simply amazing in clearing out noise, pops and clicks in decent condition vinyl. It can't fix those bad ones I sampled in my opening post with constant noise and crackles, but for the occasional clicks and pops it is fantastic. I also tested other free and shareware offerings and found Groove Mechanic to work the best. GoldWave also has integrated a click and pop fixer, but it didn't work as well (back when I bought it). It may be better now, but I've had no reason to try it. The cleaned up finished product is what I record to another CD which is the one I put in my home CD changers.

I have two Sony 400 CD changers that work in tandem. I often play my selections on CD, recorded and regular, randomly between the two changers. The changers offer the ability to alternate allowing no time lag between songs. You can even have the changers fade out one song while the other changer fades in the next selection - totally randomly. I think that's cool!

[DnnRe8]

Does your laptop have a line level input? If it does simply connect a tape out connection from your receiver to the line level input on your PC. The cable would have RCA jacks on one end and a 1/8" mini jack on the other. If you only have a mic input you will need a cable with a matching transformer built in. Rat Shack used to carry this sort of thing. They may not anymore since they are moving upscale.

Thanks for your reply to my inquiry. As I said in my original post I am not very computer savy, and therefore find the need to ask for more information about this subject. My laptop does have a microphone jack and also a line in jack. Excuse my ignorance, but I am trying to understand what you wrote about. Both my turntable and my tape deck have 2 line RCA output jacks. Therefore each of the lines has 2 wires in it, for a total of four wires in the 2 RCA jacks. My computer line in jack and microphone jack both accept a 1/8 mini jack. All of the cables that I have with the 1/8" mini jacks are in effect 2 wires. Does the 1/8' mini jack that you suggested actually have four wires connected to it(bundled into one cable) then transition to 2 separate RCA jacks in order to provide a right and a left channel. I don't know if I am explaining this correctly. I guess what I am asking is does the 1/8" mini jack that you refer to have 4 contacts positions along the jack to enable the 2 connections for the right channel and the 2 connections for the left channel? If so I did't know that they made such a setup. I picture, in my mind, what you are describing as a 1/8" mini jack connected to a cable, which spilits at some point to 2 separate cables each with a RCA jack at each end. Is this correct. Lastly, my compter is running Windows XP home edition, and I found in the manual a section on "Recording and playing audio". There are buttons on the front of the laptop that are labled "Audio DJ Controls", and I suppose these are used in making recordings. However I am getting beyond what can understnd already. If the description that I have given above concerning the 1/8" - RCA cables is correct, I would appreciate hearing from you. I can then know what to look for at Radio Shack or from some other source. Thanks DGR

[royphil345]

Yes, You use a STEREO 1/8" plug to 2 RCA jack adapter. Mine is actually a stereo 1/8" plug on about 3 feet of wire that Ys off into 2 RCA plugs that I have to use female to female RCA adapters on most of the time. All computers with stereo sound have stereo line-in and even mic jacks. The stereo 1/8" plug has 3 sections. 1 hot for each channel and a common ground. Don't worry about the common ground. If you look at the back of your stereo equipment, you'll probably see that the outer part of the RCA jacks are all touching the same metal mounting plate. (common ground there as well). These stereo 1/8" plugs and the small stereo cables they're attached to are used on the headphones for portable CD players, radios, mp3 players, etc...

As far as the Windows recorder goes, I don't use it, don't know much about it. I know in the older versions of Windows it could only record up to the capacity of your memory (wouldn't write to the hard drive). Don't know if that's been changed or not in XP.

You are going to need a program to divide your recording into CD tracks anyway (avoiding CDs that have only a very long track 1). All of the programs I know of that do this have a built-in recorder as well. Still recommend "CD Wave Editor" as one that is VERY fast and easy to use. Still willing to share my shareware copy if interested.

The "Windows DJ" thing sounds like a group of shortcut buttons added by the laptop manufacturer. Probably has controls for volume and controlling the functions of Windows Media Player etc... You probably won't need that.

What you will need is the controls in your Windows Audio Mixer. There may be a small icon that looks like a speaker in your System Tray (lower right-hand corner of screen in Taskbar). If there isn't, you need to go to My Computer / Change a Setting / Sounds, Speech, and Audio Devices / Sounds and Audio Devices .... Then check the box that says "Place volume icon in the taskbar". Double clicking on this little speaker icon will open the Windows Audio Mixer.

When the mixer opens you'll see your settings for playback. If you go to Options / Properties in the upper-left hand corner of the mixer, you can select Recording and see how your mixer is set for recording. Select the check box for the source you want to record from and set the recording level for that source. That's all there really is to it. Some recorder programs will even select the correct source in the mixer for you and provide a control for your recording level. Making it unnecessary to even open the mixer.

Let me know if you want to try "CD Wave Editor". Could probably find a place on the web to put it up for you to download. It's not a large file.

Let me know the next time you get stuck. Though, I expect you to at least get it hooked up this time!!! ... just kidding:)

[DnnRe8]

My thanks to you Royphil345. It has been a couple of days since I visited this site, so I just read your response to my question today. You cleared up a lot of questions for me. I printed out a copy of your post so that I could follow the instructions that you gave. Being computer challanged, I was none the less even able to find the mixer window that you wrote about. To do what I want to do I will probably need a copy of the "CD Wave Editor" that you suggested. If you are willing to share it and put it on the web, would you please give me instructions on how to download it also. I have never downloaded anything onto my computer, and don't know how to do it. I guess I will try to find the stereo to RCA adaptor wires and jacks. I'll try radio shack, but they may not have it. Thanks once again for your help. DGR

[royphil345]

OK... Here it is http://uploads.savefile.com/redir/106195.zip
Just click on this link. Then, click on the small link in the bottom yellow box where it says "download/show the hosted file", select save, select somewhere to save the file where you'll be able to find it. Just double click on CD Wav162.exe to install the program. To use the program, find it in your start button menu under programs.

Should be able to find that cable at Radio Shack or Best Buy.

Actually, can't find a stereo 1/8" to RCA JACKS adapter. Might have to go with the stereo 1/8" to RCA PLUGS adapter http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F002%5F003%5F009&product%5Fid=42%2D2551 and use the female to female RCA adapters when necessary, like I do. http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F002%5F001%5F003&product%5Fid=274%2D874 (that's a pack of 2)

Also found these at Best Buy.com.

Since you have a laptop, you'll probably be able to get close enough to your stereo equipment to plug the RCA plugs straight into the tape-outs on the receiver or tape deck and not need the adapters. I need an extra patch cord between my stereo and computer, which is why I always end up needing the female to female adapters.

[DnnRe8]

Thank you Royphil345 for your detailed and very helpful instuctions. I downloaded a copy of the program onto a CD, and I am going to download it directly to my computer. I have to wait for a friend of mine to come over to help me do this. The reason is that I want to be able to find it on my computer when I want to use it, an I am not sure where to download it to. I have one more dumb question for you. My turntable is an old AR (I think XB) model. Do I have to buy a phono pre-amp and connect this between the turntable and the computer, or can I just go with the connections that you described? I was searching on e-bay, and came across someone who was selling a whole set-up, pre-amp and adapter cables, instructions, etc. on converting vinyl to CD. I think the price was around $25 or so, I'm not sure. It had a Bozok Madisson phono pre-amlifier in the package. If I need a pre-amp would this be an appropriate type, or is it just an e-bay listing rip-off, as sometimes happens. Thanks. DGR

[royphil345]

Probably a moving magnet magnetic cartridge in your turntable. In this case, it's plugged into an input in your preamp/receiver marked phono. If you plug it into a tape-in or aux.-in, you'll barely be able to hear it.

If this is correct, it means that the turntable is using a built-in phono preamp in your preamp/receiver. You can record using this preamp simply by connecting the tape-out jacks from your preamp/receiver to your computer, making sure phono is selected on the preamp/receiver when you want to record. The built in preamp is likely of higher quality than the Bozak one.

If for some reason you wanted to hook the turntable up away from your stereo system, you would need a preamp between the turntable and computer. The least expensive one I recommend is this one. http://www.audioreplay.net/tc750pp.html It's a steal at that price. Sounds 99% as good as some $200.00 preamps I've heard. This same unit is sold under a couple other brand names for about $80.00 (Rek-O-Kut is one I remember). Also comes with the cables you'd need.

I'd shy away from most of the phono preamps cheaper than this. You'll notice that the signal to noise specs are terrible (around 50dB) and they won't even give you the specs on how accurate the RIAA EQ is. (The one I recommended above comes to within + - .5 dB, matching the specs of many more expensive preamps) The one above also uses an outboard power supply which makes it quieter. Wouldn't say the eBay "cheapies" are a rip-off. Just a good example of "you get what you pay for".

[DnnRe8]

Thank you Ronphil345. You are quite correct about the magnetic cartridge, and the hook up that are on my reciever. It is an old Pioneer sx-838. If I remember correctly the pre-amp can be disconnected from the amp, by removing a set of what look like wide "U" shaped wires, about the thickness of a coathanger. You have been very good at answering my questions, and even anticipating the things that I forgot to mention in my post. Once again thank you very much. DGR

[BRANDONH]

Hi Brandonh,

Thanks,

How would the Gruv-Glide results compare to the Nitty Gritty and Disk Doctor cleaning solutions? Pretty close? Geez, Royphil just uses dish soap and tap water!

When I first recommended it Id read good reviews about this product but was skeptical; so many companies claim that their product is best. I play my vinyl records sometimes at very high volumes 800-1000 watts and on occasion I would get feed back through the turntable. So I asked a friend who is a DJ what he did to prevent feedback. He highly recommended Gruv-Glide. So I bought it. I first applied to an clean but older album. I noticed less pops & clicks almost a 50% reduction and greater dynamics. So then applied it to one of my pristine halfspeed mastered LPs. Although my audiophile records have very little surface noise before the treatment, once the record was treated the surface noise all but disappeared. The music sounded as close to live as I have ever heard my turntable produce. The vocalization and instrumentation was MUCH clearer and the overall sound was cleaner and very pleasing plus I could not get the system to feedback at all.
I can unequivocally recommend this product with out any reservation what so ever! Once Gruv-Glide is applied to your favorite albums you will hear stuff that was literally hidden in the grooves that you may have never knew was there at all. Gruv-Glide it is a must have if you enjoy playing vinyl you will not regret it.

[piece-it pete]

This inconsistency and variability is both the beauty and the curse of vinyl.


Hey Wooch, I didn't know you were a poet!


Nutty, The only thing I have to add here is that I use a manual cleaning device called a "spin clean" available here:

http://www.garage-a-records.com/spin.html

I have had GREAT results with it, particularly since I ditched their drying cloths and bought a few 3M "Microfiber" tack cloths at Walmarts' hardware section. I have cleaned at least 400 lps' with it, along with a couple of 45s'. If it still sounds like crap after cleaning you're prolly out of luck. I've ditched a few lps' that broke my heart, but what can you do?

I do plan on trying Gruv-Glide shortly, both for better sound and to protect my favorite lps' from overplay damage, which I've heard tell it helps.

Have fun. Too bad about the promo Beatles!! But who knew.

Pete

[Dave Lindhorst]

Before you go out and purchase a variety of cleaning and conditioning products I would suggest making sure your turntable is set up properly. Every angle created by the relationship between the LP and the needle is of paramount importance. Lots of places have an audio store where someone is capable of setting up a tone arm properly. They will ensure the height is correct the cartridge is installed properly and the overhang is correct. My turntable arm has a height adjustment you can do on the fly and that raspiness can be induced by having the arm too high or too low. Start with the basics (setup) and work from there. You may find that this alone will cure the problem. Hope this helps somewhat.

[Reticuli]

What you're getting is probably not noise from grime in the record grooves. It's distortion. It's either tracking distortion from an improperly setup cart, poor arm geometry, poor bearings or gymbal, improper cartridge-phono stage matching (clipping), or just a poor quality cartridge. Since you say this was a problem from the beginning with the new records and the new cartridge from the early days, it cannot be grime or a worn stylus. You'll probably notice a change in the amount of distortion depending on whether you're at the beginning of the record or end, and depending on the loudness that the original record was mastered/cut/pressed to/at.

[NuttyBuddy]

What you're getting is probably not noise from grime in the record grooves. It's distortion. It's either tracking distortion from an improperly setup cart, poor arm geometry, poor bearings or gymbal, improper cartridge-phono stage matching (clipping), or just a poor quality cartridge. Since you say this was a problem from the beginning with the new records and the new cartridge from the early days, it cannot be grime or a worn stylus. You'll probably notice a change in the amount of distortion depending on whether you're at the beginning of the record or end, and depending on the loudness that the original record was mastered/cut/pressed to/at.

Update after 4 years:

Yep. It is distortion from the turntable. Replacing the original Pioneer cartridge with an Ortofon cartridge did not remedy the problem. The raspy sound only occurred, to my ear, on a few certain records, usually on 45s when it did happen. I rarely heard it on LPs so I thought it was the records.

Last week I bought an inexpensive Audio-Technica USB turntable (AT-LP2D-USB) for converting my record collection to digital and magically that raspy sound is gone on those problem records. The sound is very good also. I'm using the RCA outs rather than the USB and feeding the audio straight into my PC's Audigy sound card. The turntable has a built-in pre-amp or it can be switched to phono output. There is no ground on the RCA outs of the turntable and I get a minor hum if I route it through my receiver and then to the PC. The USB audio is good but had high peak levels. I could not find a way to adjust the USB levels.

I guess when you go for a P-Mount turntable, you're at the mercy of the manufacturer to have the tone arm set properly. There's nothing that can be adjusted if you ever find the need to do so. Of course, my new Audio-Technica is just as unadjustable, but it was inexpensive and had good reviews for my designated purpose of recording to digital.

[Reticuli]

Ortofons often have the exact same frequency intermodulation distortion problems as your original cartridge, so yeah, that wouldn't have fixed fim-d if that was the problem. Audio Technicas tend to have very good fim-d tolerance, so that would explain your improvement. Grado and the Stanton 680 line are also very low distortion carts when set up right. Grado uses very odd internal design that gives it a strange, deep, warm, forgiving sound and the best you get is usually with low pF phono stages. The 680 wants a high pF phono stage and will tend to roll off even then in the highs. I adore the lows and mids on the 680 ellipticals when it's matched to the right phono pre, though. And on bright records, wow, it sounds nice. The old HiFi tip was a favorite of mine for balancing everything right, but is now discontinued. Any of the 680 ellipticals with an output between 1 and 4mV, though, on that other table of yours would probably sound nice. Or get another Audio Technica, like the newest 440ml series.


Update after 4 years:

Yep. It is distortion from the turntable. Replacing the original Pioneer cartridge with an Ortofon cartridge did not remedy the problem. The raspy sound only occurred, to my ear, on a few certain records, usually on 45s when it did happen. I rarely heard it on LPs so I thought it was the records.

Last week I bought an inexpensive Audio-Technica USB turntable (AT-LP2D-USB) for converting my record collection to digital and magically that raspy sound is gone on those problem records. The sound is very good also. I'm using the RCA outs rather than the USB and feeding the audio straight into my PC's Audigy sound card. The turntable has a built-in pre-amp or it can be switched to phono output. There is no ground on the RCA outs of the turntable and I get a minor hum if I route it through my receiver and then to the PC. The USB audio is good but had high peak levels. I could not find a way to adjust the USB levels.

I guess when you go for a P-Mount turntable, you're at the mercy of the manufacturer to have the tone arm set properly. There's nothing that can be adjusted if you ever find the need to do so. Of course, my new Audio-Technica is just as unadjustable, but it was inexpensive and had good reviews for my designated purpose of recording to digital.

[emesbee]

I have copied quite a number of LP records and cassettes to CD. I have an M-Audio 2496 sound card, and have also used an Import USB connected device, both with quite good results. The Import device comes with data capture and basic editing software.

I have used a number of tools for removing pops and crackles and audio editing. Currently using Magix audio cleaning tools, which seems quite good. There are a number of freeware programs available too. Audacity is one such, although its not all that intuitive to use.

After editing, track splitting etc, I use Nero to burn to CD.

[squeegy200]

I have copied quite a number of LP records and cassettes to CD. I have an M-Audio 2496 sound card, and have also used an Import USB connected device, both with quite good results. The Import device comes with data capture and basic editing software.

I have used a number of tools for removing pops and crackles and audio editing. Currently using Magix audio cleaning tools, which seems quite good. There are a number of freeware programs available too. Audacity is one such, although its not all that intuitive to use.

After editing, track splitting etc, I use Nero to burn to CD.

After trying several applications, PCs, and soundcards, I've seemed to have taken the same journey as emesbee.

I presently use a Macbook with a USB capture interface. the outputs from my tape out (Or outputs from phono stage) plug directly into the interface and present the signal to my Macbooks sound card. I've been using Audacity to capture the audio, to edit and to convert to WAV files. I then use NERO to burn the selections to CD.

This has resulted in the best audio quality thus far from all the other alternatives I've tried. It is labor intensive cutting the tracks and arranging from the Audacity raw files. But the resulting files seem to retain much of the dynamics and fidelity that was on the original vinyl.

[emesbee]

I use the software that came with the Inport device to do track splitting, even if I used a different method for the data capture. The Inport software is fairly basic, but sometimes that is better. Its very easy to use and does the job quite well. I was also using it for cleaning up pops and crackles, but the Magix software seems to do a better job, so I use that now instead.

eg: I have used Audacity to capture the audio through my sound card, cleaned up the audio using Magix software, used the Inport software to do track splitting, then Nero for the final burn. Sometimes I use Audacity or some other freeware tools I've downloaded to do some more specific editing. (Getting complicated, I know.)

[NuttyBuddy]

I find a great software combination to be GoldWave (http://www.goldwave.com/features.php) for capturing/recording with a ton of editing features, and Groove Mechanic (http://www.coyotes.bc.ca/DL_GM.html)to eliminate pops/clicks and surface hiss. I am amazed at how well Groove Mechanic cleans up the trash on my records. They both cost up front, but in my opinion, are well worth the small cost, and both offer free lifetime upgrades.