15'' titanic mkIII vs paradigm pw 2200

[s dog]

For xmas im going with the 15'' titanic or the pw 2200, my room is 18 by 12 the 2200 is about $300.00 more bucks than the titanic , I just cant seem to make up my mind it will be used for 60% ht 40% music, just wandered what you guys think,I might even be able to get away with the 12'' titanic for dang near half the money of the 2200 not sure,I want a sub that will go deep and hit hard. I have a ps 1000 that im running at this time.

[kexodusc]

I own the new PW-2200, last year I built the 12" Titanic MKIII for my parents...in all honesty, the Titanic is a superior subwoofer, though it is considerably and will give off a bit more heat from the amp. Oh, and she ain't the prettiest looking thing.
I'm going to sell it off and replace it with the MKIII 15" myself. The 500 watt and 1000 watt amps come with full Parametric Eq's too to smooth out the response for the low frequencies...very nice feature indeed.
There are a few other comparably priced sub kits that have just as good a reputation as the MKIII's. If you can build your own cabinet, or can live with the rather bland look of the MKIII, it's a solid choice.

Of course, the benefit to buying the PW-2200 is the knowledge you are getting a very decent subwoofer, and the brand name. Normally brand doesn't mean much, but the PW's have decent re-sale value should you want to upgrade (although IMO the 1000 watt, 15" is the LAST sub you will need).

I think Wooch built his own sub too...he'd a good one to flag down.

[s dog]

I own the new PW-2200, last year I built the 12" Titanic MKIII for my parents...in all honesty, the Titanic is a superior subwoofer, though it is considerably and will give off a bit more heat from the amp. Oh, and she ain't the prettiest looking thing.
I'm going to sell it off and replace it with the MKIII 15" myself. The 500 watt and 1000 watt amps come with full Parametric Eq's too to smooth out the response for the low frequencies...very nice feature indeed.
There are a few other comparably priced sub kits that have just as good a reputation as the MKIII's. If you can build your own cabinet, or can live with the rather bland look of the MKIII, it's a solid choice.

Of course, the benefit to buying the PW-2200 is the knowledge you are getting a very decent subwoofer, and the brand name. Normally brand doesn't mean much, but the PW's have decent re-sale value should you want to upgrade (although IMO the 1000 watt, 15" is the LAST sub you will need).

I think Wooch built his own sub too...he'd a good one to flag down. Thanks for the help kexodusc, Do you think the EQ on the sub will be hard to set up i have never had a EQ on a sub before, and are sealed subs harded or easyer to place in the HT room , I have a ps 1000 for now, i hope the mk111 will be less boomy and sound better for music and surely go deeper

[kexodusc]

S dog:

I don't think a sealed sub vs. ported sub really makes much of a difference for setup based on my experiences. Low frequency wavelengths are huge, measured in feet, and there's going to be reflections etc, in any room whether there's a port or not...IMO, the port has more to do with box tuning. Some prefer the reflex design, some prefer sealed...I haven't made my mind up yet because to me the presence or lack of a port doesn't contribute all that much to the sound quality.

S dog, before you drop some cash on a new sub, try a few things with your unit. Your PS-1000 is among the better ones I've heard in that price range, though I must admit, the market has become much more competitve, and money goes a bit further towards subs now, IMO. What equipment do you have running with it? To be honest, on my current Paradigm system (Studio 40's, 20's and PW-2200) I found changing the settings of my receiver so that the speakers were "small" and limiting the LFE cutoff frequency to 40 or 60 Hz (instead of 80, or 90 Hz) made a huge difference in tightening things up. Also, when setting speakers to "small", be sure that your subwoofer is handling the bass, not the speakers, or "both"...depending on your receiver's settings.
Next, if you don't have a receiver with an auto-calibration/setup feature (and even if you do), I suggest you use an SPL meter to help you blend the subwoofer in with the mains. Download some bass tones onto a CD or use a a/v setup disc you may have.

Subwoofers are hard to blend with main speakers because bass frequencies below 80 Hz really behave funny in a room. A Parametric EQ will smooth out any large spikes or drop-offs you may have in your sub's frequency response. I've only recently been able to play with one to learn how significant, how huge an impact this can have. Let's say your PS-1000 in your room for whatever reason generates a spike of +9 dB at around 30 Hz (in my room, I mearued it at +12dB around 28, and some plus + 6's and 9's at a few higher points). What this does is make your bass sound really loud (or boomy) when it plays those frequencies, so you either lower the sub's volume and get thin bass on all the other low frequencies between 20 and 60Hz, or keep it there and are stuck with uneven boomy bass. The Parametric EQ will help you decrease those spikes (and raise any dips you may have) so your response is within a more tolerable +/-3 dB range or so...It will sound like you have more bass, without the boominess!
I still don't have a Parametric EQ but in January or so when I buy a new sub, it's on the list. Again, Woochifer is probably a good guy to flag down here, he's had even more experience than me and I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you about his experiments with a Parametric EQ. The good thing about the 2 amps that come with the MKIII Titanic kits is that there's instructions on how to EQ your system, and lots of help available at the Parts Express forums.

Your room is fairly decent sized, almost the same size as my temporary HT room or 12 X 19 (while we redo our living room). It could be that your sub is just overworked in your given room. Try experimenting with placement further out from the corner or the wall. I find my PW-2200 doesn't strain at all. The sad news about a room such as yours, is that you will probably be limited to around 23 or 24 Hz as far as low response goes because of room acoustics. You might want to think twice about getting the 15" MKIII Titanic, as your room acoustics will prevent you from being able to hear the really, really low, deep frequencies anyway (don't worry, you might not even be able to hear below 23 Hz). What kind of loudness (SPL) are you hoping to acheive with the 15"? It's a great sub, but if you don't need to generate more than 105 dB in a large room either now, or if you plan on moving to a larger room in the near future, the 12" is probably more than enough. As I said before, it is a superior unit to the PW-2200 and far cheaper (but also a bit uglier).

On the other hand if you're like me, there is a certain cool factor in owning a 15" subwoofer, and it does provide you some flexibility if you move to a larger room in the future.

Hope this helps.

[bikehikefish]

The last post is giving you the straight scoop on the benefits of parametric EQ.

Like you, I have a PS-1000 and found it boomy. Using a Rat Shack meter and a test tone disc, I found HUGE spikes at 40 Hz and 60 Hz. Moving the sub out of the corner helped tame it quite a bit, but it was still boomy.

Taking advice from Woochifer and others, I bought a Behringer Feedback Destroyer on Ebay for $65. Just this past Sunday, I finally got it calibrated correctly to get rid of the big spikes. The difference is night and day. Nice, tight, thumping bass the really reaches low.

Before the PEQ, the volume level on the PS-1000 was set between 1/3 and 1/2 to keep the overall sub volume about 4 db higher than the mains. After PEQ, I had to set it to about 2/3 to get the same volume. This results in sub raising the relative volume of those frequencies that used to be in the "troughes". No longer is it dominated by that 40 Hz spike (was +15db).

This is all graphed in Excel, but I don't have acess to it right now. If you are interested, I can post it later.

[s dog]

S dog:

I don't think a sealed sub vs. ported sub really makes much of a difference for setup based on my experiences. Low frequency wavelengths are huge, measured in feet, and there's going to be reflections etc, in any room whether there's a port or not...IMO, the port has more to do with box tuning. Some prefer the reflex design, some prefer sealed...I haven't made my mind up yet because to me the presence or lack of a port doesn't contribute all that much to the sound quality.

S dog, before you drop some cash on a new sub, try a few things with your unit. Your PS-1000 is among the better ones I've heard in that price range, though I must admit, the market has become much more competitve, and money goes a bit further towards subs now, IMO. What equipment do you have running with it? To be honest, on my current Paradigm system (Studio 40's, 20's and PW-2200) I found changing the settings of my receiver so that the speakers were "small" and limiting the LFE cutoff frequency to 40 or 60 Hz (instead of 80, or 90 Hz) made a huge difference in tightening things up. Also, when setting speakers to "small", be sure that your subwoofer is handling the bass, not the speakers, or "both"...depending on your receiver's settings.
Next, if you don't have a receiver with an auto-calibration/setup feature (and even if you do), I suggest you use an SPL meter to help you blend the subwoofer in with the mains. Download some bass tones onto a CD or use a a/v setup disc you may have.

Subwoofers are hard to blend with main speakers because bass frequencies below 80 Hz really behave funny in a room. A Parametric EQ will smooth out any large spikes or drop-offs you may have in your sub's frequency response. I've only recently been able to play with one to learn how significant, how huge an impact this can have. Let's say your PS-1000 in your room for whatever reason generates a spike of +9 dB at around 30 Hz (in my room, I mearued it at +12dB around 28, and some plus + 6's and 9's at a few higher points). What this does is make your bass sound really loud (or boomy) when it plays those frequencies, so you either lower the sub's volume and get thin bass on all the other low frequencies between 20 and 60Hz, or keep it there and are stuck with uneven boomy bass. The Parametric EQ will help you decrease those spikes (and raise any dips you may have) so your response is within a more tolerable +/-3 dB range or so...It will sound like you have more bass, without the boominess!
I still don't have a Parametric EQ but in January or so when I buy a new sub, it's on the list. Again, Woochifer is probably a good guy to flag down here, he's had even more experience than me and I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you about his experiments with a Parametric EQ. The good thing about the 2 amps that come with the MKIII Titanic kits is that there's instructions on how to EQ your system, and lots of help available at the Parts Express forums.

Your room is fairly decent sized, almost the same size as my temporary HT room or 12 X 19 (while we redo our living room). It could be that your sub is just overworked in your given room. Try experimenting with placement further out from the corner or the wall. I find my PW-2200 doesn't strain at all. The sad news about a room such as yours, is that you will probably be limited to around 23 or 24 Hz as far as low response goes because of room acoustics. You might want to think twice about getting the 15" MKIII Titanic, as your room acoustics will prevent you from being able to hear the really, really low, deep frequencies anyway (don't worry, you might not even be able to hear below 23 Hz). What kind of loudness (SPL) are you hoping to acheive with the 15"? It's a great sub, but if you don't need to generate more than 105 dB in a large room either now, or if you plan on moving to a larger room in the near future, the 12" is probably more than enough. As I said before, it is a superior unit to the PW-2200 and far cheaper (but also a bit uglier).

On the other hand if you're like me, there is a certain cool factor in owning a 15" subwoofer, and it does provide you some flexibility if you move to a larger room in the future.

Hope this helps. Im running a denon 4800 receiver for center channel, sides and back surrounds and a sonance 120 watt x 2 power amp for the main speakers. I have a denon 1600 dvd player, I have klipschs synergy speakers all the way around sb-3s for fronts sc-3 for center and ss-1s for sides and back surrounds and the ps1000 for sub.I have all my speakers set to small and the cut off on the back of sub set at 70 , As far as the receiver goes i have never been able to fined any frequency setting on my receiver for the sub but it does have a sub woofer peak limiter setting which is set at - 18db i think it keeps the sub from playing distorion, Yes i do have a spl meter what i did to night when i got home from work was put in a bass heavy dvd , I try it 1st with no sub hit peaks of about 90 dbs, then at the same volume i played the same thing with sub on and i was hitting peaks of a 105dbs ,Maybe im trying to push my sub to hard and that is what is makeing it boomy, I think i will try turning it down some and move it around see if that helps, I have it in rear corner as of now ,it does blend better with other speakers in front right corner but does not have as much inpact for movies as it does in the rear, thank you guys for all the help

[kexodusc]

S dog...If you have the Radio Shack SPL meter, make sure you search for the "correction" values. The SPL meters from Radio Shack are notorious for giving incorrect readings in bass frequencies. I have a different model, but if you search old posts here, or start a new thread asking for the Radio Shack SPL correction values, you should get some very quick responses.

If you receiver doesn't have a subwoofer crossover frequency selection feature (should be easy to find in the manual, but many receivers older than a year or two don't), then it's probably fixed at 80 or 90 Hz. In this case, I recommend you do the following.
Set all your speakers to Small, and crank the cutoff frequency on the back of the sub to the highest value...all the way!!
Here's why: If your speakers are set to small, and you have the crossover on the sub set at 70 Hz you will have a gap in your bass response. Your receiver is cutting off bass to the speakers at 80 or 90 Hz (found in your manual somewhere probably). So between 70 and 80 or 90Hz you are getting a very diminished bass response. So crank the sub's dial up all the way and let the receiver do the crossover, instead of having them both play against each other. This is critical. Typically, the receivers do a better job of crossover anyway.
Once you've done this, check again.

I have a feeling, S Dog, that your bloated bass response is a result of room gain. Your room is acting like a hollow resonating chamber, amplifying frequencies (like an acoustic bass guitar).
$100-$130 towards a Parametric Eq is a very, very good decision, and will often make a smaller sub sound better than a bigger, better sub when set up right.

Of course, if you end up with the 15" or 12" Titanic MKIII kits, you get the PEQ anyway. Good luck. Let us know how you make out.