I'm convinced now.....

[Mark111867]

I ended up buying AR gold plated banana plugs for my speakers and sub. I also bought a Monster Cable Interlink 200 for my connection from my cd player to my receiver, along with the monster gold plated banana plugs to connect my speakers to my receiver. I never considered upgrading connections or getting banana plugs, as I really didn't think that it would make much of a difference. For any of you out there that were on the fence like I was, it does seem to make a difference. No, the difference will not knock you over, but you will probably notice. The sound I'm getting now seems smoother, and the bass and treble responses both seem to be extended.

[FLZapped]

.....seem.......seem.....

Could be verified with simple testing..... -Bruce

[Mark111867]

.....seem.......seem.....

Could be verified with simple testing..... -Bruce

Hi Bruce. I say "seem" because so much in audio is subjective. How would you conduct these simple tests? I would like to give it a shot. Thanks.- Mark

[jeskibuff]

How would you conduct these simple tests? I would like to give it a shot.

The best way would be to put a relay inbetween the receiver and the speakers. You would connect each speaker "both" ways - one connection to use your new cables and plugs, and the other using your old wiring. Both connections would then go to the relay, NOT the receiver. The speaker outputs from the receiver would go to the common terminals of the relay. You control the position of the relay with a wire connected to a power source sufficient enough to trip the relay. So, if you short the wire, the relay closes and you hear the sound through your old connection. "Unshort" the wire, the relay opens and you hear the sound through your new connection. You could sit back on your couch in the prime listening position and switch back and forth with your eyes closed.

I doubt if you'll be able to tell the difference, unless the old wires were REALLY shabby (broken strands, small gauge, etc)

It's a little project to set up...the proper relay would probably be pretty cheap, but you'll save A LOT by not being suckered into buying overpriced cables.

[Mark111867]

Thanks Jeskibuff. Have a great weekend!

[mtrycrafts]

The sound I'm getting now seems smoother, and the bass and treble responses both seem to be extended.


That may be that it seems that way. Other explanations will fit equally well. You are biased? Your brain imagined this?
Electrically, you will be lucky to measure a difference unless you use exotic lab testing gear and th eanswer is way out to the right of the decimal point, way out

[FLZapped]

Hi Bruce. I say "seem" because so much in audio is subjective. How would you conduct these simple tests? I would like to give it a shot. Thanks.- Mark

It doesn't have to be subjective.

A smoother and extended response would just require a simple frequency sweep measurement; Provided all other conditions were exactly the same, besides the DUT(Device Under Test).

I suppose you could also do an impulse test to see if anything there changed as well.

* Political statement to follow* :rolleyes:

It is a shame that there are those who would propagate myths and erroneous beliefs as fact, resulting in the inappropriate belief that audio is somehow so mysterious and opening up a cottage industry that fleeces the public with abandon.

*End political statement.....* :D

-Bruce

[Mark111867]

Thanks all for your input. Enjoy the weekend.

[trollgirl]

the oxidation which will always degrade the surfaces and the conductivity of lesser metals.

Lazarus Short in western Missouri

[trollgirl]

Reading the other replies, I see that mtrycrafts sez: "That may be that it seems that way. Other explanations will fit equally well."

Does that include my explanation? dmbfan's explanation? Anybody's explanation?? I think I will take his statement as an admission that any other explanation/opinions are as good as his.

Lazarus Short in western Missouri

[Norm Strong]

I don't advise testing interconnects. Done right, it takes time and effort, and the results won't make you any happier. However, for those unable to resist their own curiosity, here's how you do it:

The interconnects under test should be the same length. Lay them on the floor and tape them together so that, as nearly as possible, they constitute a single 4 conductor cable. Attach the bundle tightly to to the shelf containing the source, and on the other end, the amp.

Make two identical score sheets with room for 10 trials.

Check that both interconnects make good contact and have no intermittents. Listen to both as long as you wish. Can you tell the difference? If not, the test is over. You don't need to do a DBT unless you can pass a sighted test. "Pass" in this case constitutes 8 correct ID out of 10 trials.

One pair of interconnects is called "heads" and the other is "tails" The proctor running the test starts by removing the interconnects. Then he flips a coin and writes down heads or tails. He then plugs in the corresponding pair of interconnects and leaves the room. The subject enters the room and listens. When he thinks he knows which pair is connected, he writes it down on lhis scoresheet and leaves the room.

The proctor enters the room and repeats the process. Etc. etc.

It's important that the proctor always unplugs both ends of the interconnect BEFORE he flips the coin. It's important that he go through the same process, even if there is no change between 2 consecutive trials.

If there's any question about the honesty or reliability of the proctor or the subject, that person should have a "second." Someone who verifies that the interconnect written down matches the one that's connected. This should be done after the subject makes his ID.

Good Luck,

[mtrycrafts]

Reading the other replies, I see that mtrycrafts sez: "That may be that it seems that way. Other explanations will fit equally well."

Does that include my explanation? dmbfan's explanation? Anybody's explanation?? I think I will take his statement as an admission that any other explanation/opinions are as good as his.

Lazarus Short in western Missouri


You'd have to evaluate the other explanations and cannot take it on face value. However, bias and imagination fits best as there is no real evidence for any other explanation as his listeing protocol is unreliable.
So, no, not every explanation carries equal weight. Some are worth much more than others.

[jeskibuff]

....if you feel that you're honest enough to want to find out the truth. I don't like the idea of leaving a room, then re-entering it everytime someone makes the switch. I prefer an A-B instant comparison, where I can switch immediately between the two items being evaluated.

For interconnect testing, I would find a device that has two identical outputs. Many CD players have 2 sets of analog stereo outputs. I would plug one set of interconnects into the one set of outputs and the other interconnects into the other. Then connect the other ends to two different inputs on your receiver/preamp. Make sure those inputs are set up identically (same gain, no effects, i.e. church, cathedral) Use your remote to switch from one input to the other.

If you think you CAN detect a sonic difference, swap the interconnects. In other words, totally disconnect one of them and plug the other set in its place. Then plug the set first disconnected into the vacancies left by the set just moved. This ensures that there are no other variables involved, like gain differences or bad input circuitry. Of course, this method won't work for comparing analog to digital - there's more involved there than just interconnects. Also, if you don't have two outputs on one device, you can split one output into two using RCA "Y" adapters. Actually, I've assumed RCA interconnects is what you were referring to. That's what the Monster Interlink 200s are, aren't they?

This would be a much simpler process, although definitely not as scientific as Norm's method. If you think you can trust yourself to be objective about the results, it'll work.

Another benefit of my process is that you've got less probability of damaging a good set of interconnects. Plugging and unplugging interconnects repeatedly could possibly stress them, although a good set should be able to withstand such duress.

[skeptic]

The correct way to test interconnects, speaker wires, or anything else is not A against B but A against nothing. That's right, a shunt. A shunt switch alternately inserts and bypasses the device in the circuit to be tested. It allows you to evaluate what the equipment or wire under test is doing to the signal in absolute terms, not what it does relatively compared to what something else does.

A tape output/input and monitor switch is the perfect shunting device for testing interconnects. A similar scheme can be made for speaker wires by anyone who can wire a few light switches and put them in a plastic box. Same for power cords but you have to be careful, you are working with dangerous voltage. A banana jack can be trickier but a couple of hours with a soldering iron and a few hand tools should be sufficient to rig a suitable test set up.

A scientific exploration of wire performance would require that any audible results be correlated with electrical measurements.

Then to engineer a sound system optimizing cables, it would be necessary to integrate whatever knowledge is gained by the prior tests with the rest of the equipment used considering alternatives and cost effectiveness. With no data of any kind obtainable because the industry has chosen not to present any, it's not only hit or miss but even the subjective tests carried on by the overwhelming majority of end users are pathetically laughable in their unreliability.

So spend away. To the guys who profit from this, it's almost all they have to keep the doors open with most other legitimate products types on thin margin due to competition. They need to buy Christmas presents, new cars, and vacations too.

[jeskibuff]

A tape output/input and monitor switch is the perfect shunting device for testing interconnects.

The shunt test is definitely simple and valid to see if an interconnect degrades a signal at all. Flipping the tape monitor loop in and out would be an easy method to detect that degradation, for sure.

But in the (highly unlikely) situation where there IS degradation on BOTH sets of interconnects, you would have to do the kind of test I suggested in order to determine if one set degrades the signal quality more than the other one.

In short, skeptic's test is easier to set up and get instant results on interconnect quality, but in the end you'll probably find that you get no signal degradation with most interconnects unless they're crappy ones to begin with.

[jneutron]

the oxidation which will always degrade the surfaces and the conductivity of lesser metals.

Lazarus Short in western Missouri

Gold plate does not necessarily stop underlying oxidation. It only impedes it, buying some solderability time..

All plated surfaces are porous at the molecular level. That is why solder or tin plated surfaces have a limited shelf life.

Gold is no exception..

For long term oxidation protection, a reflowed solder coat will be better. Not pretty, not very conductive, but provides hermeticity.

Cheers, John

[FLZapped]

the oxidation which will always degrade the surfaces and the conductivity of lesser metals.

Lazarus Short in western Missouri


In a quarter century, I've never had this be a problem between properly mated connectors.

-Bruce

[mtrycrafts]

The correct way to test interconnects, speaker wires, or anything else is not A against B but A against nothing. That's right, a shunt. A shunt switch alternately inserts and bypasses the device in the circuit to be tested. It allows you to evaluate what the equipment or wire under test is doing to the signal in absolute terms, not what it does relatively compared to what something else does.


Unfortunately one needs a cable to operate the system. And, one needs to know which alternative is different, or not from each other, not against a shunt as you will not operate that setup, without a cable.

[F1]

the oxidation which will always degrade the surfaces and the conductivity of lesser metals.

Lazarus Short in western Missouri

True to some degree, but if we take the matter into EXTREME you will get a condition as follow. Let say you mate interconnect that has gold plated and the steel jack from receiver that does not have gold plated. The steel jack will corrode faster because of this gold plated interconnect, due to galvanic corrosion. If you mate non-gold plated interconnect and non-gold plated jack, you don't have galvanic problem.

[skeptic]

Unfortunately one needs a cable to operate the system. And, one needs to know which alternative is different, or not from each other, not against a shunt as you will not operate that setup, without a cable.

If I understand you correctly, I think you are saying that there must be a cable of some sort between the source and the shunt point and the shunt point and the load. This is true, the test is not theoretically ideal. In the case of ICs, it is the short length of wire between the source and the tape output jack, and the tape input jack and the monitor switch. In the case of speakers, it could be speaker wire that is much longer. It could be minimized considerably if you were to use monoblock amplifiers sitting next to the speakers and the switching done by a relay. However, what is gained is an understanding of what the cable does in absolute terms rather than in relative terms. Even in electrical testing, there is the internal wiring of the test equipment itself to contend with. My experience with $1 RS three foot ICs is that there is no audible difference I can detect between the source and the ICs in the signal loop. One could argue that this test is different than say connecting them between a cd player and a preamp or between preamp output and power amp input. Although the manner of usage is similar (low impedence source, high impedence load), in fact this is true, they are not identical. The test is not 100 percent perfect. But neither are the alternatives. ABX swiching has exactly the same problem. Worst of all by far IMO is what most people do, turn the system off, disconnect one set of cables, connect another and turn it back on again. Not only have you set up a test to compare one possibly poor performer with another, you have spent so much time between tests that you have probably forgotten much of the critical details that are the benefits claimed by advocates. Such as how loud it is. (BTW, any cable which attenuated a signal perceptably would be unacceptable IMO. This degree of gross degradation is beyond anything reasonable.)

[bturk667]

If you are, well then, isn't that all that really matters? Screw objectivity, LONG LIVE SUBJECTIVITY!!! Fiction or nonfiction, a mind is a powerful tool!!!

[WmAx]

When using the tape loop as a testing circuit please realize that this is not typically a cut in/out switch. IN order to insure stability of the interal lines on the preamplifier section of the reciver, most recievers use active input/output buffers on the tape loop. WHen your results end up being null(most likely) after testing/comparing, just remember that not only did you place a piece of cable into the circuit, you also transmitted through additonal 'cheap' active circuitry. Audilbe? Not likely, IMO. :-)

-Chris

[skeptic]

If the tape output circuit contains a buffer, all bets are off and the comparison would be invalid. Most older units didn't. However, you can sitll use the tape output circuit by getting another tape monitor switch which doesn't have a buffer, inserting that in the receiver's tape monitor loop, and then using that switch for the shunt.