Paradigm subs....and others in the $500 range

[cone]

Looking at adding a sub for music only in 20 x 16 room...first auditioned pdr 10...not that impressive...then heard the pw 2100 which sounded very good($750 usd)...what about the ps 1000 model?($580 usd) At any rate...with any maker...as you climb up the price point ladder ....things do improve...still might try HSU...and the latest B&W 600 line (all sealed models) was very transparent and musical....any thoughts

[spf]

Hey cone,

You'd think because a subwoofer plays such a limited range (20-100Hz roughly) that it would be easy to find one to suit your needs. Ultimately it falls to your room and your ears.

For music, the PS-1000 was quite good all around as I found the PDR-10 was a bit "one-noted" although for the price still a very good little sub. The HSU VTF-2 is a great sounding box that would do well in music or HT. You may also want to check out SVS and believe it or not ...the Mirage LF-150 (surprisingly smooth and quick) .

Point is to really get out there and try these units with your setup. Good luck.

Shane

[bacchanal]

I've also found that it takes quite a bit more effort to properly set up a sub than it does speakers. Room placement and treatment play a significant role in how your sub will sound. It may take awhile to find a setup you like, even if it is the right sub.

oh yeah, it also depends on how well a particular sub blends with your other speakers. You might try staying in the same product family as you mains, for instance.

For me, the pdr10 was fine, but I have a smaller room, and I keep the bass to pretty much a minumum. It did take awhile to find the right placement though.

[Woochifer]

The thing about subs is that as you go lower into the bass range, the room starts to dominate what you hear. That's why demo room listenings IMO are practically useless unless all of your listenings were done in the same room and calibrated to the same settings. If you did your listenings in different rooms, then they are not comparable because each room has a different set of acoustical issues and unless you check and calibrate the unit yourself, you have no idea what the settings are being used at any give time (level? crossover frequency? phase? high pass or low pass?).

Subwoofers will vary a lot as you move them from room to room, and any room induced issues that you encounter in your setup will affect any sub the same way. That's why a lot of people on this board who use subs will tell you how much of a challenge it is to get a subwoofer to sound right and how important the setup, placement, and room corrections are. Whatever sub you go with, I suggest that you also buy at least a SPL meter and test disc so that you can do in-room response measurements and see if there are any large peaks or nulls that you need to correct. Correcting room induced problems can be done by repositioning the sub, installing room treatments such as bass traps, or hooking up a parametric equalizer. I use a parametric EQ with my sub, and IMO it's an indispensible tool. Easily the best $120 you can spend on your system.

As far as subs go, the PS series I believe uses a modified bandpass design where the driver is enclosed and the bass propagates from one chamber to the next. You can get deep bass with this kind of design, but subjectively it might not sound as tight as a ported or sealed sub. The PW series I have heard before and they have a lot of authority with the bass (keep in mind this was a treated demo room where I heard it).

Sealed subs like the B&Ws are more forgiving by design. Easier to design and build, and easier to place. But, they are less efficient, can't go as loud, and are more prone to distorting as the bass goes to the lower limit of the driver. However, they generally have quicker transient response, which leads to the perception that they sound "tighter", and they have a more gradual rolloff at the low end, which is why a lot of people subjectively feel that they sound more "musical". In a small to medium sized room, you will get room gain at the low end and with the more gradual roll off at the low end, you could wind up with more bass extension than the specs tell you by going with a sealed sub. If you're looking to go music-only with your system, then a sealed sub should definitely be one of the choices that you consider. (If you want to hear a good one, Paradigm's Servo-15 is a great example of what a sealed sub can do, although it's quite expensive)

Aside from B&W, Atlantic Technology, Adire Audio, Onix Rocket, and Acoustic Visions all make sealed subs in your price range. I posted some info on the new Acoustic Visions MRS-10 yesterday. It's a downfiring, sealed sub with a 10" driver that can move a lot of air. Here's the link.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=8349

[BC Dave]

The PS-1000 may be a bandpass design, but in its Version 4 configuration it is a much tighter sub than the older PS-1000 versions. My best friend was not a fan of my version two PS-1000, calling it "in your face," but he was shocked at the improvement with my Version 4. He said it sounded tight and not at all boomy with music (although he still prefers my other sub, a Mirage BPS-150 bipolar unit with twin eight-inch woofers, for music. It cost me $300 more than the PS-1000v4 and isn't anywhere near as ballsy as the Paradigm in home theater mode. I spoke to the owner of a high-end home theater store, who carries subs costing thousands of bucks (Mark Levinson, MacIntosh, etc) He praised the PS-1000v4, which he also sells, for its amplifier quality, saying it has really come up from the previous versions. He said amplifier quality can make or break a sub. He also noted the PS-1000v4 driver is stiffer and has a longer throw than the older versions. The dealer said nothing he carries in that price range can touch it for overall performance. Maybe there are better brands (SVS+HSU I am guessing) but I am totally impressed with my PS-1000v4 and won't be getting rid of it anytime soon. I wish Paradigm had totally changed the model number, because people are going to continue to tar the PS-1000 with the "boomy, indistinct" brush as a result of their impressions of earlier versions.

[Dharris]

Def Tech makes a killer 10" for your money. I know, I own one and have been extremely happy with it. 10: 250 watts, great for music, very fast. For movies, it has the boom/ rumble you want.

[cam]

The PS-1000 may be a bandpass design, but in its Version 4 configuration it is a much tighter sub than the older PS-1000 versions. My best friend was not a fan of my version two PS-1000, calling it "in your face," but he was shocked at the improvement with my Version 4. He said it sounded tight and not at all boomy with music (although he still prefers my other sub, a Mirage BPS-150 bipolar unit with twin eight-inch woofers, for music. It cost me $300 more than the PS-1000v4 and isn't anywhere near as ballsy as the Paradigm in home theater mode. I spoke to the owner of a high-end home theater store, who carries subs costing thousands of bucks (Mark Levinson, MacIntosh, etc) He praised the PS-1000v4, which he also sells, for its amplifier quality, saying it has really come up from the previous versions. He said amplifier quality can make or break a sub. He also noted the PS-1000v4 driver is stiffer and has a longer throw than the older versions. The dealer said nothing he carries in that price range can touch it for overall performance. Maybe there are better brands (SVS+HSU I am guessing) but I am totally impressed with my PS-1000v4 and won't be getting rid of it anytime soon. I wish Paradigm had totally changed the model number, because people are going to continue to tar the PS-1000 with the "boomy, indistinct" brush as a result of their impressions of earlier versions.BC Dave is right, The ps1000 v4 is very much improved over the v3 which I had for 17 months. The v3 and the v4 pound hard for a 10 incher, if you didn't know you would think it was a twelve, but anyways, where my old v3 fell apart with bass definition the v4 hits hard and very precise. When I traded in my ps1000 v3 in for my new pw2200 v2, I could have at that time demoed the ps1000 and the ps1200 v4's but I was so worn out from the lack of quality bass from my ps1000 v3 I just assumed that it was going to be more of the same sound. I was wrong. In my area which is the Vancouver area Canada, at Audio Video you should be able to take home a ps1000 v4 for a little less then $500 before taxes. But don't get me wrong, my pw2200 puts the ps1000v4 to shame but for about $500 it's a great deal considering it is much improved over the v3.