bi-wiring speakers?

[madmax1]

I have paradigm studio-20 mains, the local stereo shop where i bought them at told me to bi-wire them. He said that the sound will be much more full? I dont really understand what this is doing for my speakers? If i decide to do this how would i? Anybody done this and is it worth it? Thanks!

[Pat D]

Buy-wiring would be a better name. It sells you more wire and that's its main purpose. It takes twice as much wire.

Most speakers have a crossover, and Paradigms do. Buy-wiring does not bypass that. You will notice that the terminals on the back for the tweeter and the woofer are connected by a jumper. Buy wiring does not change the fact that both the woofer and the tweeter are connected to the same amplifier terminals: what it changes is where the connection takes place. Buy-wiring is done by hooking two cables up to the left and right amplifier terminals instead of just one. One removes the jumpers from the speakers between the woofer and tweeter terminals and connects one cable from the amplifer terminal to the woofer and the other to the tweeter. So, instead of having the connection at the speaker end of the cable, it is made at the amplifer terminal. Whoopee-do! Big deal! No one has proved it makes an audible difference to the sound, assuming you have cables of an appropriate gauge in the first place--because it does lower the AWG by about 3. Thus two 16 AWG cables would be about equivalent in resistance to a 13 AWG cable.

There is a table for determining the appropriate gauge of wire in the article in the following link:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[musicoverall]

I have paradigm studio-20 mains, the local stereo shop where i bought them at told me to bi-wire them. He said that the sound will be much more full? I dont really understand what this is doing for my speakers? If i decide to do this how would i? Anybody done this and is it worth it? Thanks!

Many speakers can sound better when bi-wired. I don't know about your Paradigms but if the dealer is willing to lend you an additional set of speaker cables, it doesn't hurt to try it. If it gives you an improvement, you have to make the call as to whether it's worth the bucks. It certainly is for my speakers. I noticed a subtle improvement in detail and overall body of the sound. Body isn't really descriptive but I'd say it's just as you said - the sound is more "full" - more "real instrument" sound. It's definitely worth trying.

[FLZapped]

I have paradigm studio-20 mains, the local stereo shop where i bought them at told me to bi-wire them. He said that the sound will be much more full? I dont really understand what this is doing for my speakers? If i decide to do this how would i? Anybody done this and is it worth it? Thanks!

I guess I would have to ask if this guy would happily sell you the wire to do it......

Anyway, it's a crap-shoot at best.

The idea is to leverage your amplifier's internal impedance against the two halves of the crossover - and the two half of your speaker. Theoretically, this should provide better isolation between the two portions of your speakers. However, if you were to work this out mathmatically, you would find yourself with something like 6 vaiables to solve.....and even if you could and even if you came up with "positive" numbers, there is still no guarantee that what you'll end up with is audible, much less, desirable.

-Bruce

[J*E*Cole]

I resisted bi-wiring my Infinity Alpha 50's until I ran out of tweaks, so I bi-wired them, and just wish I would have done it sooner. It absolutely made a difference, and it was a significant one as well. The highs and mids were definitely more defined and better placed, and the lows seemed also better defined and much clearer, and seemed to extend just a little bit more. I also think speaker cable in itself is most important, and have chosen high grade Monster cable for this job. I don't fully understand the technical aspects behind this principle, but I definitely know an improvement in sound when I hear it, and this was one of the most useful tweaks I have yet made.

[kexodusc]

Oh my we're back to this again? I suppose it's been awhile...

Let me ask a few questions then. If the idea is to feed the drivers the signal separately, and directly, then why do some of the world's BEST sounding speakers, often 3 way (or even line arrays with multiple drivers) not have 3-10 wiring teminals?
And how significant is the capacitance and the inductance of standard 16 gauge speaker wire? Does it really add up that much?

I bi-wire because speaker wire is cheap and I'm afraid I'll miss out on something, but in all honesty, I can't hear a freakin' difference. I've had more than a dozen people try to prove this to me in their systems, and every single time I couldn't hear a difference at all. I'm led to believe that the time it takes to install the jumper and remove the 2nd cable, your acoustic memory has made more of an impact than the wiring.

[texlle]

My B&W's allow for bi-wiring in the back but do include gold-plated jumpers which you would of course remove when bi-wiring. I believe it is just a matter of whether you would want to pay more for cabling and such for slightly more "efficient" sound, I would call it. But I see no reason to spend the extra money in bi-wiring my speakers.

[yellowkakeuf6]

Hello B&W speaker owner and all. I'd love some advice.

I have a set of B&W 603's and just bought an Onkyo TX 8511 amp to power them.

Now I want to get some good cables but not stupidly expensive.
My brother tells me to bi-wire but reading all this makes me think twice about that.
What would you, or anyone, suggest?

Thanks so much.

Mark
hermosa beach

[markw]

Hello B&W speaker owner and all. I'd love some advice.

I have a set of B&W 603's and just bought an Onkyo TX 8511 amp to power them.

Now I want to get some good cables but not stupidly expensive.
My brother tells me to bi-wire but reading all this makes me think twice about that.
What would you, or anyone, suggest?

Thanks so much.

Mark
hermosa beachI suggest you continue reading and thinking.

[Tony_Montana]

I suggest you continue reading and thinking.

That is called "Reverse" Psychology :D

[yellowkakeuf6]

Thankyou so much.
I have never felt so enlightened, educated, informed or helped before.
What a great spirit of Xmas I have stumbled upon.
I will take this knowledge and clearly make the right decision.
oh yippee!

seriously, what does a guy need to get good work out of this system I have scrimped and saved to get, without either falling to fashion or breaking the bank?

Ebeneezer needs not reply.

[musicoverall]

Thankyou so much.
I have never felt so enlightened, educated, informed or helped before.
What a great spirit of Xmas I have stumbled upon.
I will take this knowledge and clearly make the right decision.
oh yippee!

seriously, what does a guy need to get good work out of this system I have scrimped and saved to get, without either falling to fashion or breaking the bank?

Ebeneezer needs not reply.

I'd get to know the sound of the speakers with the amp before doing anything else to the system. Take a little time, move your speakers around (closer to wall, further from wall, toed in, firing straight ahead, etc, etc) and really get comfortable with what your system will do in its current state. Then take a look at some low cost Kimber or Audioquest - there are lots of good, inexpensive but high performing cables around. Just don't push an upgrade on yourself until you're sure you know your system. That way, when you DO find the right cable, you'll know. Worry about bi-wiring after you upgrade your cables and get familiar with them in your system. It's ok to go slowly with upgrades - I think it's best. And don't worry about requests for proof of audible differences. The only person that needs proof is you.

[markw]

I'll go along half way with the above post. As far as cables go, I've found that a quality (i.e. not fancy or expensive) generic 12 gauge speaker cable is more than adequate to transefer all the musical goodness your amp has to offer to your speakers.

It's the distance and space from your speakers to your ears that is more difficult to predict and that has a profound effect on what you hear. Positioning, and room acoustics, are the second most important thing in determining the overall sound of your system. The most important thing is the speakers themselves.

Now, nobody has ever doubted that speakers sound different. Why? Simply because that's a given and is accepted by everyone.

As far as cables go, if the differences were as obvious as speakers there would be no argument but, since a lot of these cable improvements/differences rely on what you want and expect to hear and, when the rubber meets the road they disappear like a smoke ring, the debate rages on.

Likewise for biwiring. Results are mixed. Some say no difference, ohers say "night and day" and not always for the better. That's your call but, in any case, I wouldn't drop a lot of money expiermenting on this.

A lot of this hobby is based on solid science but a lot more is faith based. It's wise to know your own self before getting into the deep water.

For more reading (which may lead to more thinking) you might want to explore http://www.audioholics.com This site offers fairly comprehensive FAQ's on these and many other subjects.

[musicoverall]

A lot of this hobby is based on solid science but a lot more is faith based. .

Indeed. I prefer to go the experience route rather than faith, however. In some cases, bi-wiring has made sense...in others, not. If faith were involved, there would be a difference in all cases, be it good or bad and that hasn't been my experience. Sometimes it makes no difference at all. The same with cabling. I've heard some systems that seemed impervious to cable switching and others, such as my own, where a cable swap was noticeable. Subtle, but noticeable. As much as the basic faith platform is flawed, science evolves and I think it's too dangerous to say that science "can't" prove or "can't" show certain things. I prefer to say it "hasn't yet". It may never do so since there apparently isn't enough interest in testing things like wire. So the debate rages on, as you mentioned.

[fudgemik]

My understanding is: High frequencies travel on the surface of a speaker cable and Low frequencies travel in the core , so bi wiring makes perfect sense but I guess doesnt always sound better?????????????

[markw]

My understanding is: High frequencies travel on the surface of a speaker cable and Low frequencies travel in the core , so bi wiring makes perfect sense but I guess doesnt always sound better?????????????...you might want to explore at what frequencies these make a difference. WE used hollow wave guide for high frequencies when I was in the AF but these were for frequencies that were well in the gigahertz ranges. This argument is a non issue at audio frequencies, period.

[zapr]

........I think some speakers benefit from bi-wiring more than others. Depending on the choice of receiver or amp-pre amp. I notice more air between instruments. Less distortion. If you're listening to your system, you'll probably hear no difference. If you listen to the music, well.........Zapr.

[SpankingVanillaice]

I was woundering but my JBL S26 were bi-wired too but does that mean it will sound very good?

[meephis]

I have in the past claimed (and still do) to have heard an audible difference between a Monster Z2 (although I feel Monster is a too highly priced) and a zip cord, but one thing i have noticed, when comparing the two i noticed an audible difference when using them in single cable setups, but once i tried bi-wiring them, it was a different story. The bi-wire setup with the zip cord sounded exactly the same as the bi-wired Z2, which soundedthe same as the single. The only way the higher end cables make a difference (and even i'll admit some don't) is when used in a single cable setup. But this may have just been a result of the speakers i was using, but i will never waste my money bi-wiring higher end cables, i have never noticed any difference when biwiring.

[Monstrous Mike]

In some cases, bi-wiring has made sense...in others, not.
Do you have some examples where it does make sense to bi-wire and some examples where it doesn't make sense to bi-wire?

[Monstrous Mike]

My understanding is: High frequencies travel on the surface of a speaker cable and Low frequencies travel in the core...
That may be true but the highest audio frequencies in speaker cables are 20 kHz and this falls in the radio frequency spectrum band called VLF (Very Low Frequency).

So when we use the term "higher frequencies" in audio we are talking relative to the other audio frequencies not all other frequencies. All audio frequencies are actually very low.

Many audio companies exploit this misconception.

[Monstrous Mike]

I read a thread on another audio board a while ago where are guy claimed he heard a pleasant improvement in sound when he biwired. He was obviously a newbie because in response to replies to his post he mentioned that he had not removed the jumpers on the terminals. Of course, when told he should remove them, he claimed the sound improved even more.

I can say in all honesty I have no scientific explanation for this.

[musicoverall]

Do you have some examples where it does make sense to bi-wire and some examples where it doesn't make sense to bi-wire?

Yes, but the examples relate to specific brands and models of speakers and brands of wire. Quite frankly, my comment would have been better stated as "...in some cases, certain speakers responded to bi-wiring with positive sonic improvement and in some cases they did not based on the particular wire that was in use".

That's not to say that the speakers that did not sound better after bi-wiring wouldn't have if a different wire had been used and vice versa.

[musicoverall]

I read a thread on another audio board a while ago where are guy claimed he heard a pleasant improvement in sound when he biwired. He was obviously a newbie because in response to replies to his post he mentioned that he had not removed the jumpers on the terminals. Of course, when told he should remove them, he claimed the sound improved even more.

I can say in all honesty I have no scientific explanation for this.

Sounds like he was more than just a newbie - he was someone with high expectations! I have a similar story regarding a DAC. I went to someone's house and he was showing off his new DAC and regaling us with the sound. I noticed that the light underneath "AES/EBU" was lit up and looked around to see what balanced cable he was running. However, it was a single ended cable. Upon further study, I saw that he had not even properly hooked up his DAC. Instead, it was simply the old CD player we were hearing. The DAC was on but was not inserted into the signal path. Rather than embarrass him in front of everyone, I waited until they had left the room for drinks and then hooked it up properly. Should I have said something? :)

I can relate to expectations as a possible means of hearing differences but there have been many times I've chosen a product at the middle of a line that was uglier than another. I can recall preferring a product that I absolutely did not want to prefer. I can't imagine what the bias could be. If my amps weren't powered by tubes, I'd cover them because they look too "retro" for my room which is decorated in more modern fashion.

At any rate, I remain open to the possibility that I could be imagining things. But if so, my imagination is a lot more vivid than it's ever been given credit for in the past! :)

[Monstrous Mike]

Yes, but the examples relate to specific brands and models of speakers and brands of wire. Quite frankly, my comment would have been better stated as "...in some cases, certain speakers responded to bi-wiring with positive sonic improvement and in some cases they did not based on the particular wire that was in use".

That's not to say that the speakers that did not sound better after bi-wiring wouldn't have if a different wire had been used and vice versa.
I was looking for more of a technical approach to this question. If your answer is based on trial and error with different components then that's not really what I was looking for.

[Monstrous Mike]

Sounds like he was more than just a newbie - he was someone with high expectations!
My point was that experiences related between people over the Internet or elsewhere should really be tempered since you have no idea about the person you are reading about. People and their experiences are a huge variable with expectations, hearing abilities, writing skills, motive, imagination, drugs and alcohol, etc. all being mixed into the final report. We tend to give credence to experiences that are similar to our own and dismiss those that contradict. And even that in itself can cause someone to continuously follow the same path.




At any rate, I remain open to the possibility that I could be imagining things. But if so, my imagination is a lot more vivid than it's ever been given credit for in the past! :)
We all imagine things every day. And really this is just audio so we are all happy we can spend money and enjoy this hobby. If you are imagining you are being followed by aliens or that the bridge is only 5 feet high when it is actually 500 feet high then maybe you need a friend to intervene.

I guess I would sum up most of my skeptical posts in a manner that I am not trying to deny anyone their audio pleasure, but if you can gain real (i.e. objectively confirmable) improvements in sound then adding a little imagination will really boost the listening experience. For example, my advice would be that if you have a good system and some extra cash, then upgrade your room. You don't have to imagine as much to get a sound improvement because their would be some real improvement.

[zapr]

I read a thread on another audio board a while ago where are guy claimed he heard a pleasant improvement in sound when he biwired. He was obviously a newbie because in response to replies to his post he mentioned that he had not removed the jumpers on the terminals. Of course, when told he should remove them, he claimed the sound improved even more.

I can say in all honesty I have no scientific explanation for this.
........That's funny! Did he mention if it improved the smell of his system?.......Zapr.