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thedude1
11-13-2004, 04:33 AM
Hello! I've been auditioning new speakers for h/t and music, comparing various brands and have narrowed my search down to two: B&W and PARADIGM. The B&W set-up would comprise the lcr600 center,602 s-3 for mains, and the 601 s-3 for the rears. the PARADIGM set-up would be the cc-370 center,monitor 3 for mains, and the mini-monitors for the rears. there are aspects about both brands that i like. the nautilus tweeters in the B&W's seem to be getting a little extra attention from me,though. Has anyone been down this same road or has had any experience with either brand that can offer an opinion? Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!! Thanks!!!!!

chimera128
11-13-2004, 04:43 AM
It's all a matter of taste. Personally I didn't like the B&W line very much. To me they are overpriced and lacked something compared to the speakers I ended up getting. Of course I like the more spacious sound of bipolar speakers. In terms of their nautilus tweeters, you shouldn't just take a feature and let that be the deciding factor though. Each brand will have their gimmicks to sell their speakers. Wave Guide, Nautilus Tweeters, woofer composites, designer speaker boxes, built in powered subs etc. What matters is what you like best in the end in terms of the way it sounds not by what technology it uses or how expensive it is.

PAT.P
11-13-2004, 05:35 AM
Hello! I've been auditioning new speakers for h/t and music, comparing various brands and have narrowed my search down to two: B&W and PARADIGM. The B&W set-up would comprise the lcr600 center,602 s-3 for mains, and the 601 s-3 for the rears. the PARADIGM set-up would be the cc-370 center,monitor 3 for mains, and the mini-monitors for the rears. there are aspects about both brands that i like. the nautilus tweeters in the B&W's seem to be getting a little extra attention from me,though. Has anyone been down this same road or has had any experience with either brand that can offer an opinion? Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!! Thanks!!!!!
What is your room size? If large I would look for towers for front !Also for choosing you should audition both and let your ears tell.Make sure you bring your own music .What about a sub?Pat.P

N. Abstentia
11-13-2004, 05:49 AM
Yeah like Chimera said, don't let the 'Nautilus tweeter' sway you. It's just a gimmicky name for a regular old tweeter. Also like Chimera, I didn't care for the B&W 600's at all either but that's a matter of personal taste. The Mini Moniters weren't exactly my cup of tea either. In the end I ended up with the Paradigm Studio's.

topspeed
11-13-2004, 10:46 AM
To set the record straight, the Nautilus Tweeter is hardly a "gimmicky name for a regular old tweeter." This isn't some Vifa or Peerless tweeter purchased from another manufacturer and stuffed into a box. This is a proprietary tweeter designed and manufactured by B&W for B&W only. The Nautilus tweeter is described here (http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.techfeatures/ObjectID/3A7555C4-4779-11D4-A67F00D0B7473B37) and as you can see, there is quite a bit of technology behind it. Does is hurt the marketing side? Of course not, but then again B&W is in the business of selling speakers.

In regards to which speaker, as other's have mentioned it's a personal taste issue. Before I bought my B&W CDM 7NT's, I compared them against Studio 100's v2, Vandy 2ce's, Deftech's, M&K's, and everything else I could lay my mits on. Of all the speakers, it came down to the Studio's and B&W's. For what I listen to, I preferred the B&W's clarity and speed, especially in the bass. Using a brutal Dave Weckl track that has a quick walking bass line, the Studio's had more trouble delineating each pluck of the strings and things tended to get a bit smeared. Now keep in mind, this is the v2, and from what Woochifer says (an opinion I trust), the v3's have addressed this by toning down the tweeter (many complained of fatigue on the v2's) while tightening up the bass at the expense of some lower frequency extension and slam. Also, let me point out that to tell the difference between the Paradigm's and B&W's, you had to compare them side by side and exert a level of concentration that would be completely counterproductive to actually enjoying music. In other words, I'm not talking "night and day" differences here.

Bottom line, you should try to listen to both speakers in your own house. Differences in sound between the B&W's and Paradigms would probably come more from how each interacts with the room versus specific design differences. See if you're dealer will let you demo a pair of each to make the final decision. Ultimately, that is the safest way to determine which is best for you.

Good luck.

Geoffcin
11-13-2004, 11:14 AM
Hello! I've been auditioning new speakers for h/t and music, comparing various brands and have narrowed my search down to two: B&W and PARADIGM. The B&W set-up would comprise the lcr600 center,602 s-3 for mains, and the 601 s-3 for the rears. the PARADIGM set-up would be the cc-370 center,monitor 3 for mains, and the mini-monitors for the rears. there are aspects about both brands that i like. the nautilus tweeters in the B&W's seem to be getting a little extra attention from me,though. Has anyone been down this same road or has had any experience with either brand that can offer an opinion? Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!! Thanks!!!!!


Setup a friend of mine has. Although he's using the 602S3 for surround use, and his Matrix 3's for mains. The Nautilus tweeter is a noticeable upgrade from the Matrix tweeter, and his center channel has one, although I do not know the model #. I was a little disappointed with his center's range though. It has great quality, but it's only a tweeter and 6" midrange/woofer in a dual ported box. My guess is that the bass is limited to the 50hz range. While not a serious flaw, especially if you set the center to SMALL, I cant help but think that it's going to be dynamically limited on some programs. I prefer a LARGE center. If possible in your setup I would recommend it no matter which speakers you choose.

RGA
11-13-2004, 04:05 PM
I only briefly heard the monitor 3 and it seemed quite good for the money - the Paradigm set-up would be coinsiderably less money here in Canada - The B&W 600 series IMO is better - but is it better enough to justify the price. Now if you're in the US maybe these two lines are about the same price if so I would personally lean to the B&W set-up. However, if the price structure is similar in that the 602S3 here goes for about double the Monitor 3 then perhaps I'd lean to the Paraidgms and use the difference to buy the best center speaker in the monitor line (assuming it's a relative match) --- OR A better beefier subwoofer with the difference.

In the end I agree in part with the rest here about the technology - in the end the Nautuilus system is not inherently better than any other driver just because B&W says so. For instance the Kevlar drivers have issues - many of their speakers lack attack and exhibit suckouts in the upper mids. Nothing is perfect - but on balance B&W makes might fine speakers. THE CDM series was very good and I agree with Topseed on his listening assessment with the CDM 7NT (I actually liked it better than the 9NT especially in terms of value). Indeed, if you can find some second hand CDM series speakers that would be my first choice.

For home theater both of these lines and the Studio series are all "cut from a similar cloth" Listen to the ones you can afford preferably in the same room at a delaer or at home with the same amp and dvd player etc and determine which one "does it for you."

Both brands carry well known big names and check into their upgrade policy - B&W used to give 100% trade-up for 6 months. So if you didn;t like em after a few months you could upgrade to the higher model like the CM series or Nautilus series and get exactly what you paid toward the better ones or the more expensive ones. Something worth investigating. Both appear to be well built and should serve you for years.

Try not to let the big advertising and technobabble seduce you into buying - it's all in the sound in the real world that matters. In that regard between these two I personally lean to the 600 series - how you lean is what matters however. I reviewed a speaker from each of the lines your looking at http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=6696 Though please note the Monitor 3 I liked better because it is cheaper than the 5 - and this was not tested in H/T applications. Factoring in the price I might lean to the Monitor 3.

thedude1
11-13-2004, 08:26 PM
thanks for the reply! i'm sorry i didn't explain myself well enough.i like the nautilus tweeter because it seemed smooth and warm(can't deal with bright sound) no matter what music i played, not because of the catchy name.i wouldn't care if it was called the harry and joe shmo tweeter. i also know its up to what my ears hear and nobody elses.sometimes you tend to wonder if others picked up on the same thing you noticed. thanks again for your help!

Lensman
11-13-2004, 10:31 PM
thanks for the reply! i'm sorry i didn't explain myself well enough.i like the nautilus tweeter because it seemed smooth and warm(can't deal with bright sound) no matter what music i played, not because of the catchy name.i wouldn't care if it was called the harry and joe shmo tweeter. i also know its up to what my ears hear and nobody elses.sometimes you tend to wonder if others picked up on the same thing you noticed. thanks again for your help!
I noticed this as well when I was listening to them. On the high end, I felt B&Ws did seem more laid back. But I felt the midrange of the Paradigms was better balanced (I also preferred the Mini Monitors over the Monitor 3s). Both are great choices and I know you're trying to decide between them. But given your preference for "smooth and warm" sound, I must ask if you had an opportunity to listen to JMLabs Chorus speakers. Their high end is anything but bright. In fact, I found it to be too laid back for me. Even so, I was still captivated by their ability to produce what I felt to be an exceedingly comfortable, smooth, warm overall sound. Might be just the sort of thing you're looking for.

kexodusc
11-14-2004, 04:55 AM
I don't know, I really like B&W's speakers, and was leaning towards those until the floor demo/used deal on the Studio's came up...The only difference I could tell between the B&W's and the Studio's was slightly less airiness and less detail vs slightly less bright or harsh sound from the tweeter at times...it was very subtle, and hard to tell which one was better, but I felt the Studio's were slightly over doing it and almost went with the B&W's.. Then the deal o' the century came along and I pulled the trigger...haven't been disappointed though.
I don't know if these same traits apply to the Monitor and 600 series or not, as I haven't spent enough time with either, but I suspect they're both pretty close too, but I would recommend against the Monitor 3..the Mini Monitor's going to do just about everything as well, especially if you have a subwoofer, and that 8" woofer in the Monitor 3 sounds a little funny to me. Don't get anything bigger than the Monitor 5, the value's just not there IMO.


This isn't some Vifa or Peerless tweeter purchased from another manufacturer and stuffed into a box. This is a proprietary tweeter designed and manufactured by B&W for B&W only.
This is really the age old debate for larger speaker companies...build em' inhouse cheaper, or let the masters build them.
For the entry line models, I think they're further ahead to build their own, but for speakers like the Studio's, 700 series, (speakers handy to $1000 - $2000 ) most $50-$80 drivers from Vifa-Speak, Focal, etc, I've heard completely ouclass what speaker companies seem to offer...and the higher up you go in price, the wider the gap. For peanuts more cost per speaker I honestly feel they'd be further ahead to outsource still. They'd probably slim up the profit margins a hair though...tough call.
But I'd love to see the Revelator tweeter in the Studio's...
Just my rant for the day...

topspeed
11-14-2004, 11:45 AM
This is really the age old debate for larger speaker companies...build em' inhouse cheaper, or let the masters build them.
For the entry line models, I think they're further ahead to build their own, but for speakers like the Studio's, 700 series, (speakers handy to $1000 - $2000 ) most $50-$80 drivers from Vifa-Speak, Focal, etc, I've heard completely ouclass what speaker companies seem to offer...and the higher up you go in price, the wider the gap. For peanuts more cost per speaker I honestly feel they'd be further ahead to outsource still. They'd probably slim up the profit margins a hair though...tough call.
But I'd love to see the Revelator tweeter in the Studio's...
Just my rant for the day...I dunno KC...

Have you heard the Signature tweeter? It's the one with the blue tint. I've heard the dual-ring Revalator in the VR11 and while I admit it's an exceptional tweeter, I wouldn't say it's better than B&W Sig tweeter.

kexodusc
11-14-2004, 01:34 PM
I dunno KC...

Have you heard the Signature tweeter? It's the one with the blue tint. I've heard the dual-ring Revalator in the VR11 and while I admit it's an exceptional tweeter, I wouldn't say it's better than B&W Sig tweeter.
I was kind of surprised to find the VR-11's incorporated a (isn't it 2) Revelator tweeter, with all the wicked Fostex horns out there and all..I would put a $600 Fostex Horn or something in the speaker for the price those things go for...but I've never heard the VR-11...

I could be mistaken, but as I recall the Signature tweeter is a whole other step up from the stuff in Paradigm's Studios (and Signatures IMO) and B&W's 700 and even Nautilus series...maybe I'm wrong? Any idea what the cost would be to produce the Sig tweeter (or it's replacement price?)

But it's funny you should mention the Signature's tweeter Topspeed, just awhile back I was lucky enough to have a demo with the B&W Sig 805, the best thing in the store was the Focus Audio Signature series, ie: FS-688 bookshelf for about $3000 or so...I like it a bit better than the B&W though I'd happily own either...and the Focus Audio did have the Revelator...
And don't forget, it's not just having the right tweeter, but how you use it to...most books I've read, and the few projects I've built or helped built relied more on the crossover as the critical factor for sound, than the drivers, and given the relatively smaller responsibility a tweeter has in the system, quite often that's where the compromise is made.
For example, I've built two speakers since August, both using the same Peerless 850122 6-1/2" woofer, similar crossovers, but one used a $17 dollar tweeter, and the other a $29 tweeter (almost double the price). The difference was easy to tell from one to the other, but both speakers sounded very good and the better tweeter wasn't as much better as you'd expect...Incidentally, if you're wondering, everyone that's listend to these has agreed the speaker with the $17 tweeter sounds a bit better than my Studio 20's and 40's (v2), the other sounds alot better. Probably mostly attributable to the woofer.

All things equal, I guess what I was getting at was I'd gladly have paid an extra $100 - $200 for a Paradigm Studio speaker with the Revelator in instead of Paradigm's proprietary stuff...but then Paradigm probably wouldn't be making as much money if their costs rose as a result, so it's a trade-off for them. I don't think they're producing the Studio tweeters at a lower price than Vifa-Speak is producing the Revelators though. Just my 2 cents...

BillB
11-14-2004, 03:39 PM
My experience with both brands goes hand-in-hand with what Lensman described. I find the B&W to be somewhat more laid-back, with the biggest emphasis on midrange. The Paradigm sound is better balanced but both are very likeable indeed.

I own a pair of DM601s2 in a second system with other British gear (NAD and Cambridge Audio) and it's a very nice backup system.

My main rig uses Paradigm's Reference Series v3 (100/CC-470/20) and I enjoy the weight they have down low with my rock music.

As suggested, see if your dealer(s) would be willing to lend you a floor-sample pair to listen to at home. They'll already be broken in and he won't take a hit if you don't like them.

I don't think you'd be very disappointed with either.

Bill

lbhkilla
11-15-2004, 01:39 PM
I was going through about the same thing as you with my speaker selection. There doesn't seem to be much around where I live. One dealer carries B&W and Paradigm, and another carries Canton, Deftech, Klipsch. I went to the second dealer, who treated me like crap (I guess coming in with a baseball cap and a greenday shirt on doesn't scream big sale) and tried to push some Klipsch stuff on me (hate the sound of horns). So that pushed me to the other store. It was the highs mainly that sold me on the B&Ws when he had them next to eachother. I ended up with the 601s which I liked better than the Minis and the Monitor 3s. If you are in the Milwaukee area, check out audio emporium. You can listen to the Paradigms and B&Ws side by side, and the staff was much more friendly eventhough I look like some scrubby kid that wouldn't spend a dime.

BillB
11-15-2004, 01:43 PM
lbhkilla,

That's what is leading more and more high-end stores to close their doors...ignoring their future market. I've been treated the same when in every high-end store I've been to. Due to the fact that I'm young and dressed casually they assume I can't afford anything decent and/or that I wouldn't have a clue what I wanted. It's the main reason I feel ZERO guilt for buying on the internet.

But that's all for another thread...

Bill

Lord_Magnepan
11-16-2004, 06:14 AM
I dunno KC...

Have you heard the Signature tweeter? It's the one with the blue tint. I've heard the dual-ring Revalator in the VR11 and while I admit it's an exceptional tweeter, I wouldn't say it's better than B&W Sig tweeter.


I would just buy a true ribbon / qr or a electrostatic tweeter and get it over with. :p

Lord_Magnepan
11-16-2004, 06:16 AM
lbhkilla,

That's what is leading more and more high-end stores to close their doors...ignoring their future market. I've been treated the same when in every high-end store I've been to. Due to the fact that I'm young and dressed casually they assume I can't afford anything decent and/or that I wouldn't have a clue what I wanted. It's the main reason I feel ZERO guilt for buying on the internet.

But that's all for another thread...

Bill


Well i had that experience with most dealers here in germany, untill i found my current dealer. And if the other ones wouldnt have judged me by my age (21) then maybe i would have spend 10g in their store.

Nerver judge a book by its cover ;)

thedude1
11-16-2004, 08:12 PM
a big thanks to you and to everyone else who responded to my question! well, after a lot of a/b switching, i prefer the b&w's.their smooth,warm highs stayed that way even when i turned up the volume, never sounding fatiqued or bright(or just plain annoying). even my wife agreed(amazing! considering it normally wouldn't matter to her if i rigged up a tin can with a string attached), saying she liked the b&w's with any kind of music. P.S. : has anyone heard the infinity alpha series? all i keep hearing about is their c.m.m.d. drivers and how their SO neutral and transparent and are such "a breakthru in the past 20 years of audio." are these C.M.M.D. drivers the real deal?

BillB
11-17-2004, 04:56 AM
big thanks to you and to everyone else who responded to my question! well, after a lot of a/b switching, i prefer the b&w's.their smooth,warm highs stayed that way even when i turned up the volume, never sounding fatiqued or bright(or just plain annoying). even my wife agreed(amazing! considering it normally wouldn't matter to her if i rigged up a tin can with a string attached), saying she liked the b&w's with any kind of music.

Congrats! The fact that you AND your wife like them is a very good thing indeed.


P.S. : has anyone heard the infinity alpha series? all i keep hearing about is their c.m.m.d. drivers and how their SO neutral and transparent and are such "a breakthru in the past 20 years of audio." are these C.M.M.D. drivers the real deal?

That'd be for you to decide with you own ears.

Bill

RGA
11-17-2004, 02:40 PM
Agree with Bill - you need to hear them t make the determination - there is far moe to a speaker than a driver - in fact the driver may be the least important aspect to sthe sound quality emitted by the speaker depending on the design.

And judging by the sound emitted by my speakers - you'll hae a tough time convincing me there was a need to go beyond paper woofers - some still regard it as the best woofer material - but it's still implementaion that counts. I generally dislike speakers using metal tweeters - but there are exceptions which means it goes back to implementation.

COngrats on the B&W's - agree with you on the treble response and the fatigue factor.

kexodusc
11-17-2004, 06:39 PM
Agree with Bill - you need to hear them t make the determination - there is far moe to a speaker than a driver - in fact the driver may be the least important aspect to sthe sound quality emitted by the speaker depending on the design..

Interesting argument, RGA, one I've put forth and continue to lose on a few other forums.
Some manufacturers that rely on other companies to make drivers for them don't put much effort into driver design. However, there have been more than many documented studies determining that drivers are very, very important to the design. IMO, they are the second most important unit behind the crossover, but then again, the crossover takes into consideration the drivers.
Put this way, you could probably never get a $5 woofer in a $1000 box (Bose) to sound as well as a $1000 woofer in a $5 box...reason being, most woofers sound good anyway, and sound even better when integrated into a well thought out system. But identifying what's more important, is moot...a speaker is a system, with each part integrated to the next...focusing more on one are and less on another is cutting corners. Period.


And judging by the sound emitted by my speakers - you'll hae a tough time convincing me there was a need to go beyond paper woofers - some still regard it as the best woofer material - but it's still implementaion that counts. I generally dislike speakers using metal tweeters - but there are exceptions which means it goes back to implementation.
COngrats on the B&W's - agree with you on the treble response and the fatigue factor.
Yep, the best woofer I've ever heard was paper...my woofer's are paper, sounds good enough to me. Though I'm not sure what effect material has specifically on a woofer's sound. Any thoughts?

RGA
11-17-2004, 07:15 PM
I agree - you can't overlook any part of the chain - sadly most will agree on that when discussing a speaker - but not when discussing overall "system" from point source all wring topology to speaker. Few manufacturers do it and I bet fewer shoppers do it. I see too often people asking advice on which $3000.00 Integrated amp to buy - but of course listening would or should bare out the difference - and if none then that can still help to buy on other aspects than sound like build etc. Picking amps out of Stereophile's recommended list is kinda silly same for cd players and amps. I mean when several reviewers of Stereophile OWN AN cd players etc like Art Dudly in their own home and yet don't review them and it's not listed then yan gots to wonder. (sorry I digress).

Materials matter - put your speakers in a paper bag instead of a wood cabinet and tell me how it works for ya. Cabinet shape and design I'll argue makes a huge difference. I've heard the difference between Chiboard versus Birch and Copper versus silver wiring from The J/L to the J/Spe and the E/L - E/LX - E/SPe - very noticeable differences and that's mainly wiring and cabinet materials - the drivers are the same.

As for paper please please note I'm not making that case nor would I. Two reasons (1) I don;t have the techno-speak to back such a claim up and (2) I don't want an endless thread about driver materials. Suffice it to say that when I mentioned the woofer material it was just a reaction that just because something is advertised with techno-speak means little - you can put a great driver in a crappy box and and it doesn't work. The best system I've heard was the E SEC in an AN system. SO my personal subjective response to that is that Paper may in fact not be the best material "theoretically" or "practically" But someone using some other approach has the onus to convince ME it's better. Subjective.

That Crossover and wiring, drivers, cabinet material and shape, materials of drivers their size shape and Peter would argue sonic signiture of the driver material, and hell he argues over the transfer effect on the surround material whether it be rubber or foam etc etc etc etc. are all critical - get lazy on one and the whole thing is a mess IMO. Well mess is relative too. One person's beloved Bose is another's mess. And a mess to me a lot of folks disagree with and vice versa perhaps. Such is life.

And I would not necessarily say that $1000 woofer in a $5.00 box is better. Boxes resonate and may resonate way worse with a better driver perhaps. I would try and avoid the generalizations I sometimes make except to apply it with what I have heard over the years.

kexodusc
11-18-2004, 04:58 AM
Materials matter - put your speakers in a paper bag instead of a wood cabinet and tell me how it works for ya.
It would probably sound very similar to the way a woofer sounds in free air...From 400 Hz and up, free air is probably the absolute best solution, as there is no possibility for cabinet colouration, resonance, etc...but you'd have to design some fancy sort of hanging mechanism to account for time alignment between drivers, and I'd hate to be the one charged with designing the crossover in that system, yikes...and unless you've got a dynamite low-ranging woofer, the bass will probably be seriously lacking.


Cabinet shape and design I'll argue makes a huge difference. I've heard the difference between Chiboard versus Birch and Copper versus silver wiring from The J/L to the J/Spe and the E/L - E/LX - E/SPe - very noticeable differences and that's mainly wiring and cabinet materials - the drivers are the same.
I can't understand why companies like paradigm, b&w etc, use cheap particleboard or chipboard to build speaker cabinets. The extra cost of acquiring solid, 3/4" MDF would be negligible on that scale. I HAVE heard the differences between particle board and MDF. I've heard the differences between 1/2" and 3/4" MDF (thicker, denser = better IMO, though above 1" MDF is probably a waste). And even MDF vs. birch plys. IMO, MDF cannot be beat, though there's something dettached, and artificial about working with MDF instead of birch ply. Birch is popular because it's not as porous as most woods and has a high consistency. MDF is not porous at all as almost always "flawless".


As for paper please please note I'm not making that case nor would I. Two reasons (1) I don;t have the techno-speak to back such a claim up and (2) I don't want an endless thread about driver materials. Suffice it to say that when I mentioned the woofer material it was just a reaction that just because something is advertised with techno-speak means little - you can put a great driver in a crappy box and and it doesn't work. The best system I've heard was the E SEC in an AN system. SO my personal subjective response to that is that Paper may in fact not be the best material "theoretically" or "practically" But someone using some other approach has the onus to convince ME it's better. Subjective.
How diplomatically put...That's not the RGA I know...did you get flammed recentlyy??? :D
Keep in mind, there's good paper woofers, and horrible crappy paper woofers...Good aluminum woofers, bad aluminum woofers, etc. I think each material has it's relative advantages, I can hear differences in material of similarly priced and performing tweeters, don't think I've ever actually tried comparing woofers. But then again, you could have 2 similar woofers, costing the same, that peform quite differently.



That Crossover and wiring, drivers, cabinet material and shape, materials of drivers their size shape and Peter would argue sonic signiture of the driver material, and hell he argues over the transfer effect on the surround material whether it be rubber or foam etc etc etc etc. are all critical - get lazy on one and the whole thing is a mess IMO. Well mess is relative too. One person's beloved Bose is another's mess. And a mess to me a lot of folks disagree with and vice versa perhaps. Such is life.. I think there are very, very marginal differences in some components...stainless steel vs steel screws for example...and for the cost of upgrading some components, ie: silver wiring, there's probably more cost-effective ways of improving the system. However, eventually, within a given design, you'll have to get to the wiring, or possibly be forced to start all over again.



And I would not necessarily say that $1000 woofer in a $5.00 box is better. Boxes resonate and may resonate way worse with a better driver perhaps. I would try and avoid the generalizations I sometimes make except to apply it with what I have heard over the years.
Well, a box can ruin a good woofer, no doubt, but a crappy woofer that has horrible frequency response and dynamic range is only going to get better if the resonance and colourations of the bad box miraculously counter-effect the variances in the woofer's response. No, I think I'll stand by that generalization...but a $50 woofer in a $100 box vs. a $100 woofer in a $50 box would be very interesting...

RGA
11-18-2004, 01:25 PM
The issue around the cabinet material depends I suppose on what you're after - If the role of the cabinet is simply to deaden all vibrations then that's fine. In the case of AN one can build a cabinet out of all MDF if one chooses and all Birch if one chooses. They have done both with the basic E in a chiboard and MDF cabinet and then with Birch. The former is worse - though if I didn't hear the latter i wouldn't really know what I was missing - SOme made a more technical argument on AA a while back that using real wood birch (and a few others) or stone were the best materials.

Unfortunately it really means nothing to me because unless you hear the exact same spekaer design with two different cabinet materials and listen you can't really know. Lots of great speaker theory out there with impressive little papers - but if the product they let me audition to prove their theory sounds like crap then I ain't buying it. I don;t know of many speaker company's that have an Audio Note approach like their level system - so I can only relate cabinet materials wiring materials to that one company - which is hardly generalizable to other makers like B&W -- their approaches to resonance control are completely different as well. I suspect a lot of speaker company's treat the box as a necessary evil - I only have that suspicion based off of what the folks at B&W and Peter have discussed about cabinets (and that is heresay which is murky).

A $50.00 woofer - in a $100.00 box versus a $100.00 Woofer in a $50.00 box - depends on the design though - how well does the woofer blend with the tweeter.

This is a problem i have with looking at one thing individually. I have been impressed with Ribbon tweeters in the treble - never heard a ribbon speaker that when it had to mate with a woofer sound right. Heck Martin Logan is prime example of lack of driver integration. So the tweeter may in fact be theoretially the best ofr a ribbon - which is super - but if you can't get it to blend right then the point is moot. Put a sports car motor in a winnebego and nothing wrong with the motor but the gearing and weight of the vehicle aint going to make it a ferrari. Or have a great ferrari shell and stick a honda lawnmower engine in there and it ain't going anywhere fast.

In the end it doesn't really matter - B&W and Paradigm IMO just get whichever one sounds better - both probably use very similar quality of parts and both will have some nice technical arguemtns for why their approach is better just like everyone else does and you'll be happy to find lots of reviews which you can use to advertise when it's time to sell them.