HDTV Picture Question Help

[hershon]

Would appreciate any answers on the following:

One month ago I bought a 48" Mitsubishi HD Ready TV. I love the picture and quality. Best investment I ever made. I am connected to HD through my cable company. Based on the 48" HD TV I decided I needed a second HD TV for my bedroom. I got a 30" Samsung HDTV last week. Right now I don't have it connected by high grade component cables, I'll be doing that next week and am making due with the components Time Warner provided.

The picture on the 30" TV is excellent and really great when I play DVD's. My problem and question for you guys is, though the picture on the Samsung 30" TV is excellent it doesn't have the depth and richness of the picture that the 48" does. To make an analogy, the difference in the picture between the 48" TV & the 30" TV is like glossy paper to plain paper.I don't know if this is caused by not temporarily not using high grade component cables, not getting a technician to fine tune the HDTV, just having a smaller screen, or just the TV itself. It's not to late to exchange it.

Any advice or more details needed for advice? Thanks

[kpzbee]

Do you have the problem with both TV & DVD's? To me, the picture on my 57" HDTV is better than my 27" was in the way your talking about. Have you tried adjusting the 48" set? Maybe getting a tuning disc might help. I used my Terminator 2 extreme disc to check my settings. Just a thought.

[Smokey]

I don't know if this is caused by not temporarily not using high grade component cables, not getting a technician to fine tune the HDTV, just having a smaller screen, or just the TV itself.

It is probably the TV itself.

Remember my post stating that cheaper TVs tend to cut corners, and Cosumerreport have always ranked Samsung HDTV at bottom of rating for last couple of times.
By the way, Consumerreport have rated few HDTVs in their December issue of this year again. See if you can grab an issue.

I would look into Panasonic or Sony TVs :)

[hershon]

My 48" HD TV is fine No problem the picture is great. On the 30" Samsung for which I added Monster Components today to the Time Warner HD Box, DVD's play fine and technically the HD TV picture coming from 30" Samsung set is excellent, however it totally "pales" in comparison to the 48" rear projection HD. The 48" picture looks glossy with great depth and the 30" picture seems to have no gloss or depth if that makes sense.
I'm having a TV guy come out tommorow to take a look at it. If it's not my imagination & nothing can be done but I can get a better 30"HDTV for a couple of hundred more, I'll return this. If not, the picture is perfectly fine for a second TV in the bedroom.




Do you have the problem with both TV & DVD's? To me, the picture on my 57" HDTV is better than my 27" was in the way your talking about. Have you tried adjusting the 48" set? Maybe getting a tuning disc might help. I used my Terminator 2 extreme disc to check my settings. Just a thought.

[hershon]

You could be totally right. As I meant to say, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the 30" Samsung HD picture. It is excellent. However when I compare the TV picture to my 48" Mitsubishi HD, the difference is like a glossy photo with depth to a flat piece of plain paper if that makes sense. IThe DVD pictures look similar. I added my monster component cables today & it didn't improve the TV picture that much. I'm having a TV guy come out tommorow to take a look at it. If it's not my imagination & nothing can be done but I can get a better 30"HDTV for a couple of hundred more, I'll return this. If not, the picture is perfectly fine for a second TV in the bedroom. This TV was actually rated very high by people who had purchased it at circuit city- there were 8 independent reviews by consumers & they appeared to be genuine and all gave the TV high marks.


QUOTE=Smokey]It is probably the TV itself.

Remember my post stating that cheaper TVs tend to cut corners, and Cosumerreport have always ranked Samsung HDTV at bottom of rating for last couple of times.
By the way, Consumerreport have rated few HDTVs in their December issue of this year again. See if you can grab an issue.

I would look into Panasonic or Sony TVs :)[/QUOTE]

[Smokey]

However when I compare the TV picture to my 48" Mitsubishi HD, the difference is like a glossy photo with depth to a flat piece of plain paper if that makes sense.

I know exactly what you mean. I had the same type of experience a while back trying different TVs. I mean all of them had good picture and color, but that "oomph" was missing...that is until tried out the Panasonic :)

How are you comparing Tvs.

Do they both have the same type of input (such as component) when comparing picture quality?

[hershon]

Everything is the same. To be honest, and I chalk this up to my ignorance and stupidity, I assumed that because my 48" HDTV picture was so great, that therefore all HDTV's would give similar like pictures with minor differences and I looked up online various consumer reviews. As you said, perfect description, the "oomph" is missing. Maybe for all 30" HDTV's oomph is missing on all brands. After the TV guy is here tommorow, I'll probably go to Circuit City and check out the 30" Panasonic HDTV as Sony. I'm wondering if its the screen that's making a difference (my mitsubishi has something called diamonshield) or the fact that my Samsung utilizes 3-Line Digital comb filter while the Panasonic 30" HDTV has a Motion Adaptive 3D-Y/C comb filter, whatever that means.



I know exactly what you mean. I had the same type of experience a while back trying different TVs. I mean all of them had good picture and color, but that "oomph" was missing...that is until tried out the Panasonic :)

How are you comparing Tvs.

Do they both have the same type of input (such as component) when comparing picture quality?

[kpzbee]

My 48" HD TV is fine No problem the picture is great. On the 30" Samsung for which I added Monster Components today to the Time Warner HD Box, DVD's play fine and technically the HD TV picture coming from 30" Samsung set is excellent, however it totally "pales" in comparison to the 48" rear projection HD. The 48" picture looks glossy with great depth and the 30" picture seems to have no gloss or depth if that makes sense.
I'm having a TV guy come out tommorow to take a look at it. If it's not my imagination & nothing can be done but I can get a better 30"HDTV for a couple of hundred more, I'll return this. If not, the picture is perfectly fine for a second TV in the bedroom.

OK, I read that backwards. Duh.... :p Anyway, I agree with Smoky, it's probably the set. I've had 2 Toshiba's that always have had great pictures & never a problem with either one.

[Slosh]

What you are seeing is primarily the limitation of a direct-view tube's pixel count. The technology to make direct-views have as much resolution as RPTVs simply doesn't exist (at least not yet and maybe not ever). Sony's XS and XBR series 30 and 34" TVs do in fact display more resolution than any other brands' direct-views (that I've seen, anyway) but they still won't match a decent RPTV. Their HS series TVs are no better than other brands when it comes to picture resolution and is the main reason why they cost less.

I'd stick with the Samsung unless you're willing to go with a 43" RPTV instead.

[Woochifer]

Have you done any kind of picture calibration with either set? Sounds to me like you haven't. Different manufacturers have different default picture settings out of the box. The only way to do any kind of truly comparable comparison is to make sure that both sets are calibrated to the same reference tests.

If you have not done this yet, pick up a calibration DVD like the Sound & Vision Home Theater Setup, Digital Video Essentials, or Avia discs. These discs each come with color filters that ensure that the video tests give you consistent results. You'll want these DVDs for the audio tests anyway. It might surprise you just how far off the factory settings can be. With TVs that I've calibrated, the default brightness and sharpness settings are shot way above where they should be, and the color saturation is not as high as it could be. Getting those settings in balance will go a long way towards getting a more lifelike picture on your TV.

[hershon]

Kudos to you , Slosh. I just had a TV guy here who's been in the business for 25 years & he said exactly what you said. Specifically, for a 30" HD ready TV that is not LCD or Plasma, the picture tubes will be totally different from rear projector TV's which give the picture more depth as well as a slightly more glossy/shiny picture as well. While I will check out tommorow, out of curiosity the pictures on Sony & Panasonic 30" HD ready TV's, based on what the TV guy said I don't expect to find that noticeable a difference, but if I do, I'll exchange TV's. The TV guy basically said my Samsung picture was perfect. If I could put a 36" rear projection TV in my bedroom I would, but given the space limitations (the 30" TV fits in perfectly next to my receiver with no room to spare on my dresser which directly faces my bed) and $1,000 or so budget restraints, this Samsung TV which I got for $755 at Circuit City plus $40 delivery, seems like the best deal. The grass is always greener on the other side. One thing I'm still not clear of though is, the 30" Samsung has a glass screen and the 48" rear projector TV has diamonshield, a plastic screen. If I buy a plastic screen protector for the 30", will the picture look glossier and shinier?


What you are seeing is primarily the limitation of a direct-view tube's pixel count. The technology to make direct-views have as much resolution as RPTVs simply doesn't exist (at least not yet and maybe not ever). Sony's XS and XBR series 30 and 34" TVs do in fact display more resolution than any other brands' direct-views (that I've seen, anyway) but they still won't match a decent RPTV. Their HS series TVs are no better than other brands when it comes to picture resolution and is the main reason why they cost less.

I'd stick with the Samsung unless you're willing to go with a 43" RPTV instead.

[Smokey]

The technology to make direct-views have as much resolution as RPTVs simply doesn't exist (at least not yet and maybe not ever).


I don't believe that is true. From what I have read, it is the 'consumer" grade [CRT] RPTV that can not display full HD signal (such as 1080i). But direct display TVs can :)


I'm wondering if its the screen that's making a difference (my mitsubishi has something called diamonshield) or the fact that my Samsung utilizes 3-Line Digital comb filter while the Panasonic 30" HDTV has a Motion Adaptive 3D-Y/C comb filter, whatever that means.

Digital Comb Filters are only utilized when signal to TV is composite type (such as Coax or Video RCA). When using TV's s-video or Component inputs (or HD), the Comb filter is bypassed. So it is not a factor.

At the bottom of your heart if you are not happy, I would go head and exchange it. You may have to try different TVs (like I did :D) before finding the one that make you happy. Just make sure you keep the packaging :)

[hershon]

What I'm going to do tommorow is go to Circuit City &/or Best Buy and look at the HD Ready TV 30" sets and see if I notice a tremendous difference between the Samsung 30" HD Ready set I have and the others. If I do, I'll probably exchange the set as I have 30 days to do it in, but based on what I've heard from my TV guy and some people here, that'll probably be unlikely. What I should have done when i bought my set in the first time, is look at other 30" HDTV's at Circuit City as well & compare pictures, which I stupidly did not do because the $755 price on the Samsung was addicting. To be honest, the picture is much much better than my 15 year old Sony 27" TV but I admit the 48" HD Mitsubishi has spoiled me.




I don't believe that is true. From what I have read, it is the 'consumer" grade [CRT] RPTV that can not display full HD signal (such as 1080i). But direct display TVs can :)



Digital Comb Filters are only utilized when signal to TV is composite type (such as Coax or Video RCA). When using TV's s-video or Component inputs (or HD), the Comb filter is bypassed. So it is not a factor.

At the bottom of your heart if you are not happy, I would go head and exchange it. You may have to try different TVs (like I did :D) before finding the one that make you happy. Just make sure you keep the packaging :)

[Woochifer]

What I'm going to do tommorow is go to Circuit City &/or Best Buy and look at the HD Ready TV 30" sets and see if I notice a tremendous difference between the Samsung 30" HD Ready set I have and the others. If I do, I'll probably exchange the set as I have 30 days to do it in, but based on what I've heard from my TV guy and some people here, that'll probably be unlikely. What I should have done when i bought my set in the first time, is look at other 30" HDTV's at Circuit City as well & compare pictures, which I stupidly did not do because the $755 price on the Samsung was addicting. To be honest, the picture is much much better than my 15 year old Sony 27" TV but I admit the 48" HD Mitsubishi has spoiled me.

That type of demo room comparison is not valid for the reasons that I brought up earlier. Different sets have different defaults, and open display models on the floor at places like CC and BB typically have had no calibration done. In addition, with all those reset buttons that you see on the remotes and consoles, it's all too easy for even a simple calibration to go back to the factory defaults. As I said, different manufacturers use different default settings, and the defaults are typically wrong. The only question is how far off a particular set is compared to others.

[hershon]

Woochifer, you're right but for somewhat different reasons. I just went today to both Circuit City & a huge LA chain store 50 times bigger than Circuit City & Best Buy, just to look at different HD Ready TV's that were 30" to see if I'd notice a difference in picture. Here's what I just discovered, alot of these HD ready TV's don't even have an HD broadcast signal being displayed which is totally worthless & only a complete moron would chose a HD TV based on what they saw in these stores with the exception of the more expensive higher end sets & projection sets which are displaying a proper HDTV picture/signal. I bought my 30" HD Ready Samsung Widescreen TV from Circuit City on sale because of 2 things: the $755 price which I found ahead of time in a newspaper ad & from the reviews I saw of consumers online. It didn't dawn on me to compare 30" models of other brands in the store & it turns out if I did, it really wouldn't have meant much of a difference. I'm basically satisfied that for my budget range ($600 - $1000) and for my 30" size limitations, I got the best bang for my money. Having said that, I very much prefer my 48" Mitsubishi HD Ready Rear Projector TV which I bought at a high end HD Big Screen Speciality Store on sale for $1600 with free delivery. At this store all the TV's have the same HD TV channel being broadcast on it so what you see is what you get. I erroneously assumed that any 30" HD ready TV would produce a totally identical pictureof my 48" set, just proportionally smaller. Apparently, that will never be the case for "conventional wide screen" HD TV's under 36" as opposed to plasma & LCD's. Having said that, I'd still prefer my new 30"HDTV rather than a 30" non HDTV, as my second TV for my bedroom. If someone was buying their first HD ready TV, I'd definately tell them to first get a big widescreen set 42" or more before they bought a smaller HD TV even if it costs them $1600 instead of $700.




That type of demo room comparison is not valid for the reasons that I brought up earlier. Different sets have different defaults, and open display models on the floor at places like CC and BB typically have had no calibration done. In addition, with all those reset buttons that you see on the remotes and consoles, it's all too easy for even a simple calibration to go back to the factory defaults. As I said, different manufacturers use different default settings, and the defaults are typically wrong. The only question is how far off a particular set is compared to others.

[Slosh]

Walmart sells the 30" Sanyo HT30744 for $647 and there are two monster threads on this TV at avsforums.com and it seems like a very good TV for the money. This TV has an over-the-air HD tuner built in and a HDMI input. I may even pick one up this weekend since it is so cheap and see for myself if it's the real deal.

[hershon]

This sounds like a great deal but they want $100 for shipping costs which puts it back to $747 which isn't all that much better than my $755 plus $40 for delivery, Samsung, which I should note doesn't come with the HD tuner which isn't important if you use cable TV but all the same seems like a pretty good deal. In retrospect, if someone could fit in a 36" or larger rear projection widescreen HD TV in their second room and/or bedroom instead of a 27- 34" conventional widescreen HD ready TV, you'll get a better "in depth" HD picture on the rear projector model. Obviously if you could afford a 27-34" widescreen HD plasma or HD, I'd go that route though.


Walmart sells the 30" Sanyo HT30744 for $647 and there are two monster threads on this TV at avsforums.com and it seems like a very good TV for the money. This TV has an over-the-air HD tuner built in and a HDMI input. I may even pick one up this weekend since it is so cheap and see for myself if it's the real deal.

[Slosh]

This sounds like a great deal but they want $100 for shipping costs which puts it back to $747 which isn't all that much better than my $755 plus $40 for delivery, Samsung, which I should note doesn't come with the HD tuner which isn't important if you use cable TV but all the same seems like a pretty good deal. In retrospect, if someone could fit in a 36" or larger rear projection widescreen HD TV in their second room and/or bedroom instead of a 27- 34" conventional widescreen HD ready TV, you'll get a better "in depth" HD picture on the rear projector model. Obviously if you could afford a 27-34" widescreen HD plasma or HD, I'd go that route though.

There's no shipping if you buy it from a B&M. ;)

I went for the 32" 4:3 model (HT32744) for $697 because the 16:9 window on this model is equal to a 29" widescreen but a 4:3 image on the 30" widescreen is a bit less than 24" and I'm not a fan of the stretch modes. Since most of my viewing is still standard def Dish Network the 4:3 made more sense for me. To my surprise with a $20 passive indoor antenna I receive HD ABC and HD PBS plus seven other digital 480P channels so having the built-in tuner will hold me over nicely until I upgrade to a HD Dish receiver. Unfortunately I live on the wrong side of a pretty big hill (by east coast standards) to receive HD CBS, HD FOX, and HD NBC but at least I get to watch Monday Night Footbal in HD. :) This TV's line doubler does a nice job and has 3:2 pulldown (which isn't mentioned on Sanyo's web site) and makes S-VHS tapes and standard Dish Network programming look quite a bit better than my old 27" analog Sony Wega.

A friend has my Video Essentials DVD so I haven't been able to do a proper calibration yet but even so I don't see any real shortcomings. Progressive scan DVD looks superb and I haven't seen any chroma upsampling errors even though my DVD player is supposed the be a big offender (Pioneer Elite DV-45A). Although a direct-view will never match the detail of a big RPTV this TV does in fact have enough resolution to clearly see an obvious improvement with true HD over progressive scan DVD, so that's all I can ask for at $700.

[hershon]

What's a B&M? I went to the Walmart site where they mentioned the shipping.

Question for you on your mode & philosophy- because this isn't a widescreen won't your HD broadcasts have part of the picture (choose 1 or all) have the picture cut, have the picture look slightly distorted or have bars or something? I hope not, but in my personal opinion you should have gone with the widescreen for the extra money as the hassles aren't worth it but if they are for you, great.

Concerning your HD Dish network problem with getting some HD channels, couldn't you, if you have the money for it get cable service too so you could get those other HD Broadcasts that you can't get now. When I got the NFL ticket a few years ago, I had a dish installed and still had my cable TV service as well. Good luck.


There's no shipping if you buy it from a B&M. ;)

I went for the 32" 4:3 model (HT32744) for $697 because the 16:9 window on this model is equal to a 29" widescreen but a 4:3 image on the 30" widescreen is a bit less than 24" and I'm not a fan of the stretch modes. Since most of my viewing is still standard def Dish Network the 4:3 made more sense for me. To my surprise with a $20 passive indoor antenna I receive HD ABC and HD PBS plus seven other digital 480P channels so having the built-in tuner will hold me over nicely until I upgrade to a HD Dish receiver. Unfortunately I live on the wrong side of a pretty big hill (by east coast standards) to receive HD CBS, HD FOX, and HD NBC but at least I get to watch Monday Night Footbal in HD. :) This TV's line doubler does a nice job and has 3:2 pulldown (which isn't mentioned on Sanyo's web site) and makes S-VHS tapes and standard Dish Network programming look quite a bit better than my old 27" analog Sony Wega.

A friend has my Video Essentials DVD so I haven't been able to do a proper calibration yet but even so I don't see any real shortcomings. Progressive scan DVD looks superb and I haven't seen any chroma upsampling errors even though my DVD player is supposed the be a big offender (Pioneer Elite DV-45A). Although a direct-view will never match the detail of a big RPTV this TV does in fact have enough resolution to clearly see an obvious improvement with true HD over progressive scan DVD, so that's all I can ask for at $700.

[Slosh]

What's a B&M? I went to the Walmart site where they mentioned the shipping.
Brick and mortar - ie: a real physical store. There's no way it would have fit into my car but luckily I also have a pick-up truck so there was no need to have it shipped. It does weigh more than 150 lbs. so I had a friend help me bring it into my house and set it on my stand. FWIW Sanyo has a full one year parts and labor warranty and according to Consumer Reports is the most reliable brand of direct-view TVs, plus Walmart will accept returns for one full year with no questions asked.


Question for you on your mode & philosophy- because this isn't a widescreen won't your HD broadcasts have part of the picture (choose 1 or all) have the picture cut, have the picture look slightly distorted or have bars or something? I hope not, but in my personal opinion you should have gone with the widescreen for the extra money as the hassles aren't worth it but if they are for you, great.
I get a 29" widescreen picture with black bars above and below so I'm only giving up 1" to the 30" widescreen version (which cost $50 less, BTW). Nothing is being cut off. There is a zoom mode for 4:3 programming that is rebroadcast over the HD channels so I get to watch those shows full screen with no black bars and nothing cut off and nothing stretched. If I went for the 30" widescreen model 4:3 shows would only be 23.5" unless you use the stretch mode (which I didn't care for). In other words I'm giving up 1" for 16:9 programming but gaining 8.5" for 4:3 programming. To me that was worth the extra $50.

Okay, I'll admit I'm giving up a bit of "coolness factor" by going with the 4:3 but I'm sick of being pretty and sick of being cool. ;)


Concerning your HD Dish network problem with getting some HD channels, couldn't you, if you have the money for it get cable service too so you could get those other HD Broadcasts that you can't get now. When I got the NFL ticket a few years ago, I had a dish installed and still had my cable TV service as well. Good luck.
I don't have a HD Dish receiver yet. Since this TV has a built-in HD tuner I can receive unscrambled HD cable without a cable box. That may be the way to go if Dish doesn't offer the local network channels (I haven't checked yet). I'll have to see what my local cable provider (RCN) offers vs. Dish Network. Since I'll also want HD HBO I'll probably be better off with a Dish Network HD PVR receiver but I haven't done any research as of yet.

[hershon]

Props to you for being able to pick it up & install yourself. No way I could have done that with my set, unfortunately, though they only charged $40 for delivery and installation so I can't complain.

I still personally think that in the long run you've made a mistake by not getting a widescreen HD ready set for the same price give or take $200 but if that's what you want to do, each to their own. Did you buy an extended warranty? I got a 5 year one for mine and it cost $220. I learned a long time ago that its better to better to err on the side of caution in regards to computers/speakers/receivers/TV.

I'd recommend you investigate what your cable company offers in terms of HD service/pricing. I'm in essence only paying $6 a month more for HD service (which includes
HD channels of ABC, CBS, FOX & NBC, TNT, Discovery & some Educational Channel- how they afford HD broadcasts is beyond me, and because I'm already paying for it HD HBO & Showtime). For another $10 a month, which I'm not doing, you can get on I think what's called HD Net and get HD Broadcasts of ESPN & some special HD movie channels. Right now for some bizarre reason in LA, Time Warner does not offer
HD broadcasts of UPN or WB. I'm also paying $10 a month to rent an HD DVR from them which is awesome. The rest of my cable charges are regular charges (digital TV/Channels & premium channels like HBO & Showtime).

Good luck. My advice to you is when you cut costs, it'll hurt you in the long run but if it works for you, more power to you.



Brick and mortar - ie: a real physical store. There's no way it would have fit into my car but luckily I also have a pick-up truck so there was no need to have it shipped. It does weigh more than 150 lbs. so I had a friend help me bring it into my house and set it on my stand. FWIW Sanyo has a full one year parts and labor warranty and according to Consumer Reports is the most reliable brand of direct-view TVs, plus Walmart will accept returns for one full year with no questions asked.

I get a 29" widescreen picture with black bars above and below so I'm only giving up 1" to the 30" widescreen version (which cost $50 less, BTW). Nothing is being cut off. There is a zoom mode for 4:3 programming that is rebroadcast over the HD channels so I get to watch those shows full screen with no black bars and nothing cut off and nothing stretched. If I went for the 30" widescreen model 4:3 shows would only be 23.5" unless you use the stretch mode (which I didn't care for). In other words I'm giving up 1" for 16:9 programming but gaining 8.5" for 4:3 programming. To me that was worth the extra $50.

Okay, I'll admit I'm giving up a bit of "coolness factor" by going with the 4:3 but I'm sick of being pretty and sick of being cool. ;)

I don't have a HD Dish receiver yet. Since this TV has a built-in HD tuner I can receive unscrambled HD cable without a cable box. That may be the way to go if Dish doesn't offer the local network channels (I haven't checked yet). I'll have to see what my local cable provider (RCN) offers vs. Dish Network. Since I'll also want HD HBO I'll probably be better off with a Dish Network HD PVR receiver but I haven't done any research as of yet.