What's REALLY going on in Iraq.

[piece-it pete]

Good news!

The media here in the States have been lying to us.

Wait, that's not good!

Anyway, things in Iraq is going well, with most Iraqis hopeful and CERTAINLY not haters of America.

Quite the contrary.

This curtesy of, of all things, Netflix:

"The producers of this groundbreaking documentary distributed 150 digital video cameras across Iraq to enable everyday people -- mothers, children, teachers, sheiks, even insurgents -- to voice their perspectives on issues such as war, terror and the democratic reform. The result is a unique tableau documenting Iraqis' lives and their hopes as they struggle with years of turmoil and strive to build a civil society. Note: Contains graphic content."

Perhaps it paints a too-rosy picture to a degree, but I'm not so sure. As people talk on camera there IS bombs going off in the background. If it was slanted they would use different clips, edit it out altogether.

WATCH THIS MOVIE.

"Voices of Iraq".

The Iraqis really do appreciate our help. They hated Saddam, are excited about democracy, and believe the problems they are having with terrorists are the result of the other Arab nations trying to stop Iraqis from being free.

Pete

[JeffKnob]

Good news!

The media here in the States have been lying to us.

Wait, that's not good!

Anyway, things in Iraq is going well, with most Iraqis hopeful and CERTAINLY not haters of America.

Quite the contrary.

This curtesy of, of all things, Netflix:

"The producers of this groundbreaking documentary distributed 150 digital video cameras across Iraq to enable everyday people -- mothers, children, teachers, sheiks, even insurgents -- to voice their perspectives on issues such as war, terror and the democratic reform. The result is a unique tableau documenting Iraqis' lives and their hopes as they struggle with years of turmoil and strive to build a civil society. Note: Contains graphic content."

Perhaps it paints a too-rosy picture to a degree, but I'm not so sure. As people talk on camera there IS bombs going off in the background. If it was slanted they would use different clips, edit it out altogether.

WATCH THIS MOVIE.

"Voices of Iraq".

The Iraqis really do appreciate our help. They hated Saddam, are excited about democracy, and believe the problems they are having with terrorists are the result of the other Arab nations trying to stop Iraqis from being free.

Pete

I will have to check that out. I am not surprised that the media is lying to us. It is harder and harder these days to get the truth about what is going on. We can't even count on our president to tell us the truth....after all he is a politician. :D I am not trying to start a fight about Bush. We all know that he has lied to us many times. I think that if we all knew the truth about everything we would be in a much different place right now.

[JSE]

We all know that he has lied to us many times.


We do? Speak for yourself. Afterall, this is just your opinion and you know what they say about opinions......... :eek:

JSE

[BillB]

WE CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!

Sorry...couldn't resist...I'll have to check out that movie though, the documentary on Al-Jazeera as well. Today's a sad day for me, I fear what our world will look like in four years.

[JeffKnob]

We do? Speak for yourself. Afterall, this is just your opinion and you know what they say about opinions......... :eek:

JSE

You must live in your own delusional world of bliss to honestly think the president has been truthful to you. I live in the real world...I hope the land-of-make-believe works out for you.

[karl k]

You must live in your own delusional world of bliss to honestly think the president has been truthful to you. I live in the real world...I hope the land-of-make-believe works out for you.
what JSE hears from the Prez and what the Prez tell US are fundementally different!:D

When GW was elected, he told JSE(as a fellow Texan) "You can always count on me to tell YOU everything I can't tell the public!" LOL!

[JSE]

You must live in your own delusional world of bliss to honestly think the president has been truthful to you. I live in the real world...I hope the land-of-make-believe works out for you.

Knob,

Actually, I live in the real world and don't cling to "He's a liar" as my best offense. For the most part, I feel Bush is an honorable man that makes decisions that are hard decisions that don't always make everyone happy. But, he makes a decision and sticks to it. I know, I know, he lied about why we went into Iraq. Being wrong about WMD is not a lie! If it was, then Kerry would also be a liar. Cuz he did vote for Iraq, I mean he did not, or no, he did. I mean he didn't. Whatever. Go ahead and keep up the "Liar" tactic. Look where it got you this time. :confused: Of course there is no sense in it now.

Your statement said that "we all" know he lied to us many times. I don't feel that is the case. "We all" means everyone. I can tell you about 51% of American voters would probably differ with you. A little short of "All" huh? But you don't want to here that. You feel that you are the voice of every American and you know what everyone is thinking. After all, you think it. Why would anyone disagree. You are the all-knowing KNOB! I understand why people like you like to use terms like "we all" and "everyone". You think it lends importance and credibility to your statement. But in the end, it's simply a useless tactic.

Anyway, I am off to live in my "delusional world of bliss".

Karl,

What's up man? You are right in that the President does confide in me about what he is really thinking. He's coming here next week to throw back a few colds ones with me. I will be sure to give everyone the "down-low" on what we talk about. :cool: Can secret service guys drink on duty? Nah, probably not.

JSE

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Knob,

Actually, I live in the real world and don't cling to "He's a liar" as my best offense. For the most part, I feel Bush is an honorable man that makes decisions that are hard decisions that don't always make everyone happy. But, he makes a decision and sticks to it. I know, I know, he lied about why we went into Iraq. Being wrong about WMD is not a lie!


JSE, He did lie about going into Iraq. In this particular case, it was safe to err on the side of caution. There was really no evidence that Saddam was collaborating with terrorist. We knew the information about WMD was sketchy, but instead of being patient until we knew more, we went head on in there, and made a huge mess. Now more have died(our soldiers) in post war activities than when we first invaded. Iraqi citzens are dying by the hundreds weekly, and terrorist are now entrenched within the country. He has lied about going in there, and now he's telling us things are going on as planned. You mean to tell me it was planned that we lose this many soldiers????? More lies, more spin, hide the truth, spin until you can change the subject, that is what we have seen so far. We don't know how much this is going to cost us, how bad things really are, how many innocent people have died, or when our soldiers will be coming home. He may be honorable as a person, but as a president, it's a different story. Why stick with a mistake, and cannot admit it happen, that is just plain stubborness, not honor.



If it was, then Kerry would also be a liar. Cuz he did vote for Iraq, I mean he did not, or no, he did. I mean he didn't. Whatever. Go ahead and keep up the "Liar" tactic. Look where it got you this time. :confused: Of course there is no sense in it now.

This whole flip flop crap is nothing more than a montra, to be repeated time and time again, so you do have to actually analyze this man position. Everyone should be able to change their mind when they get different information. This is called growth. EVERYONE does it. When you were a kid, did your behavior change as you grew older and learned more things. Do you do the same thing snow you did as a kid? No, you know do things differently based on the information you have learned over time. This is what Kerry has done, you do, I do, and every critical thinking person does. Bush on the other hand made mistakes, and stuck by those mistakes out of stubborness, this shows entrenched thinking that doesn't appear to evolve with new information. This type of thinking will get us into trouble, and keep us in trouble, hence this current Iraq situation.


Your statement said that "we all" know he lied to us many times. I don't feel that is the case. "We all" means everyone. I can tell you about 51% of American voters would probably differ with you. A little short of "All" huh? But you don't want to here that. You feel that you are the voice of every American and you know what everyone is thinking. After all, you think it. Why would anyone disagree. You are the all-knowing KNOB! I understand why people like you like to use terms like "we all" and "everyone". You think it lends importance and credibility to your statement. But in the end, it's simply a useless tactic.

Anyway, I am off to live in my "delusional world of bliss".

Karl,

What's up man? You are right in that the President does confide in me about what he is really thinking. He's coming here next week to throw back a few colds ones with me. I will be sure to give everyone the "down-low" on what we talk about. :cool: Can secret service guys drink on duty? Nah, probably not.

JSE

The rest of this stuff is personal, and the T-man finds himself tip toeing out of the picture.........

[JeffKnob]

Knob,

Actually, I live in the real world and don't cling to "He's a liar" as my best offense. For the most part, I feel Bush is an honorable man that makes decisions that are hard decisions that don't always make everyone happy. But, he makes a decision and sticks to it. I know, I know, he lied about why we went into Iraq. Being wrong about WMD is not a lie! If it was, then Kerry would also be a liar. Cuz he did vote for Iraq, I mean he did not, or no, he did. I mean he didn't. Whatever. Go ahead and keep up the "Liar" tactic. Look where it got you this time. :confused: Of course there is no sense in it now.

Your statement said that "we all" know he lied to us many times. I don't feel that is the case. "We all" means everyone. I can tell you about 51% of American voters would probably differ with you. A little short of "All" huh? But you don't want to here that. You feel that you are the voice of every American and you know what everyone is thinking. After all, you think it. Why would anyone disagree. You are the all-knowing KNOB! I understand why people like you like to use terms like "we all" and "everyone". You think it lends importance and credibility to your statement. But in the end, it's simply a useless tactic.

Anyway, I am off to live in my "delusional world of bliss".

Karl,

What's up man? You are right in that the President does confide in me about what he is really thinking. He's coming here next week to throw back a few colds ones with me. I will be sure to give everyone the "down-low" on what we talk about. :cool: Can secret service guys drink on duty? Nah, probably not.

JSE
It is amazing how Republicans get fired up when they are questioned. That is very arrogant. Bush does that all the time. How dare anybody say Bush is wrong!!

I just stated that all politicians lie including our wonderful angelic president that could do now wrong. :D You are totally whipped if you think only the Republican politicians tell the truth. I was assuming too much by using "all" when referring to a politician lying. I was assuming "all" people were smart enough to have looked at the facts and realized that the president has lied to us. I guess 51% of the people don't realize that politicians lie to us. According to JSE there is no way that for these people the lying didn't bother them or they simply voted based on different issues. Last time I checked there was more than one issue talked about in this election.

I don't believe everything that politicians tell me. If it is an issue that I feel matters to me I will research it and come to my own conclusion as to who is corrrect about the issue. Factcheck.org is a great place to find some information about the election. If you read that site you will learn that BOTH Bush and Kerry lied to us.

[JSE]

"It is amazing how Republicans get fired up when they are questioned. That is very arrogant. Bush does that all the time. How dare anybody say Bush is wrong!! "

You did not say that Bush was wrong, you said he lied. Big difference. What "I" get fired up about is when people like yourself carelessly lump everyone into "we all" in your posts. Last time I checked you did not speak for "we all". Hense, my post stating "Speak for yourself".


"I just stated that all politicians lie including our wonderful angelic president that could do now wrong. :D "

You did?

"You are totally whipped if you think only the Republican politicians tell the truth. I was assuming too much by using "all" when referring to a politician lying."

When did I say that? And yes, you are assuming to much.


"I was assuming "all" people were smart enough to have looked at the facts and realized that the president has lied to us."

Bye all means, keep clinging to that little shred of worthless nonsense to make you feel better.

" According to JSE there is no way that for these people the lying didn't bother them or they simply voted based on different issues."

No, but I would be willing to bet that most of these people can see the difference between being a liar and being wrong. Apparently you can't.

"I don't believe everything that politicians tell me. If it is an issue that I feel matters to me I will research it and come to my own conclusion as to who is corrrect about the issue. "

I would hope so.

JSE

[JeffKnob]

It is amazing how Republicans get fired up when they are questioned. That is very arrogant. Bush does that all the time. How dare anybody say Bush is wrong!! "

You did not say that Bush was wrong, you said he lied. Big difference. What "I" get fired up about is when people like yourself carelessly lump everyone into "we all" in your posts. Last time I checked you did not speak for "we all". Hense, my post stating "Speak for yourself".

I was referring to you when I said Republicans because you get very fired up when someone disagrees with you. Bush is a Republican and he has displayed an additude in the debates when Kerry has told him he was wrong. That is why I stated "How dare anybody say Bush is wrong" You don't seem to ever entertain the idea of him being wrong. That is very closed minded.



"I just stated that all politicians lie including our wonderful angelic president that could do now wrong. :D "

You did?


We can't even count on our president to tell us the truth....after all he is a politician

I am sorry but I lumped Bush in with all politicians. He still is a politician or am I wrong there too. :)



"I was assuming "all" people were smart enough to have looked at the facts and realized that the president has lied to us."

Bye all means, keep clinging to that little shred of worthless nonsense to make you feel better.

I would like to think that people in this country are smart. I am very sorry if you feel that is "worthless nonsense". Maybe in your neck of the woods the people aren't very smart.


" According to JSE there is no way that for these people the lying didn't bother them or they simply voted based on different issues."

No, but I would be willing to bet that most of these people can see the difference between being a liar and being wrong. Apparently you can't.

The statement I made about being wrong was an observation made about the arrogance of our president. He acts like he is above being wrong. Of course I know the difference between a liar and wrong. I am one of those smart people I was talking about. :)


"I don't believe everything that politicians tell me. If it is an issue that I feel matters to me I will research it and come to my own conclusion as to who is corrrect about the issue. "

I would hope so.

I haven't seen very much evidence that you have done this. All of your arguments are exactly what Bush has stated many times in his speeches. Do you have your own thoughts?

[JSE]

T,

The President did not lie about going into Iraq. Was he wrong about WMD? Looks like he was. But's that is not a lie. Did he "knowingly" really on skectchy information? No. Most other countries came to the same conclusion we did including France, Russia and Germany. Were they all lying when they said Iraq had WMDs? They did not decide our course of actions were correct but again, where is the lie?

and

"This whole flip flop crap is nothing more than a montra, to be repeated time and time again, so you do have to actually analyze this man position. Everyone should be able to change their mind when they get different information. This is called growth. EVERYONE does it. "

Yes, but going back and forth on issues so much is not a quality I look for in President.

JSE :D

[JSE]

"I was referring to you when I said Republicans because you get very fired up when someone disagrees with you. "

Are you reading my replies? I answered by saying "I" get fired up when......


" Bush is a Republican and he has displayed an additude in the debates when Kerry has told him he was wrong."

What is he supposed to say? Yep, you got me! Come on.

"That is why I stated "How dare anybody say Bush is wrong" You don't seem to ever entertain the idea of him being wrong. That is very closed minded."

This absolutely wrong, please see one of my prior postings. Looks like you did not do that research you so often refer to and formed an incorrect opinion.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=7484


" Maybe in your neck of the woods the people aren't very smart."

LOL!


"Of course I know the difference between a liar and wrong. "

Do you? Cuz, you can't seem to grasp it so far.


"I am one of those smart people I was talking about. :)"

I'm arrogant?

"Do you have your own thoughts?"

Nope, I am a mindless drone.

JSE

[JeffKnob]

"I was referring to you when I said Republicans because you get very fired up when someone disagrees with you. "

Are you reading my replies? I answered by saying "I" get fired up when......


" Bush is a Republican and he has displayed an additude in the debates when Kerry has told him he was wrong."

What is he supposed to say? Yep, you got me! Come on.

That is why I stated "How dare anybody say Bush is wrong" You don't seem to ever entertain the idea of him being wrong. That is very closed minded."

This absolutely wrong, please see one of my prior postings. Looks like you did not do that research you so often refer to and formed an incorrect opinion.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=7484


" Maybe in your neck of the woods the people aren't very smart."

LOL!


"Of course I know the difference between a liar and wrong. "

Do you? Cuz, you can't seem to grasp it so far.


I am one of those smart people I was talking about. :)

I'm arrogant?

"Do you have your own thoughts?"

Nope, I am a mindless drone.

JSE

I see you have resorted to using only personal attacks and not having a political discussion.

I am not arrogant. I know I am smart. That is self-confidence. Do you know the difference?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

T,

The President did not lie about going into Iraq. Was he wrong about WMD? Looks like he was. But's that is not a lie. Did he "knowingly" really on skectchy information? No. Most other countries came to the same conclusion we did including France, Russia and Germany. Were they all lying when they said Iraq had WMDs? They did not decide our course of actions were correct but again, where is the lie?

If you read the UN reports, and Bob Woodward in depth report on the war, there was plenty of evidence to make us take a pause before going to war. That evidence was ignored by this administration in spite of Colin Powells pleas to hold off. According to Woodwards report information that would have stop this war was buried, and information that leaned towards the fact the WMD were in Iraq was trumped up to support the war cause. Colin Powell knew the information was sketchy, but Rumsfield, Cheney, and Wolfiwotz disagreed and it was their voice that the President listen to. The lie he told is that he went with what he thought was credible evidence, when if fact it was sketchy and he knew it.


and

"This whole flip flop crap is nothing more than a montra, to be repeated time and time again, so you do have to actually analyze this man position. Everyone should be able to change their mind when they get different information. This is called growth. EVERYONE does it. "

Yes, but going back and forth on issues so much is not a quality I look for in President.

JSE :D

On the other hand, making the wrong decision, and then sticking with it is not exactly showing flexibility, agility, or any progession whatsoever. The local newspaper here did an in depth study on whether Kerry flip flop as many said he did. If fact Bush was the one flip flopping in the end. We went to Iraq to find WMD. We went to Iraq to crush a evil dictator. We went to Iraq to free the people. We went to, we went to....it just kept spinning and spinning as evidence was uncovered that WMD were not there in the first place. No admittance of possible error, no apology for the mistakes, just unapologetic banter, and tons of lies on the cost, and the ground conditions over there. This is not what I want to see in our President.

[JSE]

I see you have resorted to using only personal attacks and not having a political discussion.

I am not arrogant. I know I am smart. That is self-confidence. Do you know the difference?

Huh?

JSE

[RGA]

Good news!

The media here in the States have been lying to us.

Wait, that's not good!

Anyway, things in Iraq is going well, with most Iraqis hopeful and CERTAINLY not haters of America.

Quite the contrary.

This curtesy of, of all things, Netflix:

"The producers of this groundbreaking documentary distributed 150 digital video cameras across Iraq to enable everyday people -- mothers, children, teachers, sheiks, even insurgents -- to voice their perspectives on issues such as war, terror and the democratic reform. The result is a unique tableau documenting Iraqis' lives and their hopes as they struggle with years of turmoil and strive to build a civil society. Note: Contains graphic content."

Perhaps it paints a too-rosy picture to a degree, but I'm not so sure. As people talk on camera there IS bombs going off in the background. If it was slanted they would use different clips, edit it out altogether.

WATCH THIS MOVIE.

"Voices of Iraq".

The Iraqis really do appreciate our help. They hated Saddam, are excited about democracy, and believe the problems they are having with terrorists are the result of the other Arab nations trying to stop Iraqis from being free.

Pete

Umm who's to say the documentarian didn't fix it. Mr. Moore showed the tapes of Bush Rice and Powell among others "saying" things for themselves and now he's a liar.

You don't get a history or truth from a documentarian - nor do you get it from a mocumentarian like Moore.

Whyeveryone bothers to get into these debates - a good 40% 45% of the US population is of the religious right(so they are about as bright as people who believe in Ghosts and Goblins - which is what you believe if you belive in Christianity Catholocism and eveyr other man made reluigious power questing manifest destinyish tripe). Religious right are about keeping power building money screwing everyone over and then using terms like Thou Shalt not kill well except when it is in our opinion justified and thou shalt not steal except when we want it.

But at least you KNOW this going in when the republicans win. The Democrats show better to the rest of the world - but do no better. So there is a bit of slyness to them. I mean when Clinto helps screw over the Jamaicans no one really notices or when he bombs a country nobody relaly says much - the Republicans do the same things and then everuyone has hightened anti-Americanism radar up and get all over them. It wasn't surprising tha the slack jawed religious right Deliverence KKK element in all of the middle states went Republican nor was it a surprised the educated west coast went to the left. Sadly they were trying to pick the best of 2 pretty lousy candidates. I personally think you should have a minimum intelligence level to be president which rules out Bush - on the other hand you need some charisma too which rules out Kerry(think they would have learned after the robotic Gore). Seriously the dems screwed themselves - they need a good looking rock star type to get the conservative female republicans excited bored with their husbands who aren't allowed to go down on them becuase they'll go to he double hockey sticks - they need someone to fantasize about because they're shackled by their religious nuttyness husbands like Jerry Fallwell.

C'mon - JFK proved that you can win on looks and charisma alone. The radio only debate they chose Nixon - the telvised viewers chose JFK. Clinton??

[JSE]

The lie he told is that he went with what he thought was credible evidence, when if fact it was sketchy and he knew it.

I guess it comes down whether or not the President was deliberately trying to ignore certain evidence and whether he knew the evidence was sketchy for a fact or was that just the opinion of some. I feel he weighed everything and unfortunately made a decision based on fautly info. I can't go as far to say he did this knowing he was relying on proven false info. Remember, just about every other country in the UN made the same conclusion. DID THEY ALL LIE?

I feel he did not lie, you feel he did. Nothing we can do about that. But, back to Pete's original post.

I agree that the media has been very intent on just showing the bad in Iraq. Why, it's juicy and gets attention. Sure, people and soldiers have died and there are problems but there is also a lot of good being done. We are builing schools, power faciliies, improving oil product, people have their own businesses, people are FREE to do what they want when they want, people are not being gassed for no reason, women are not being brutalized by their own goverment officials, they had an olympic team that was not shot win they did not win. The list goes on and on. How many times do we hear about these things on all the networks combined each week? 1 maybe 2 times. Maybe. How many times are we reminded how many soldiers are killed and how many families do we need to see interviewed after their son or daughter is killed? I'm not saying we should not be aware of these things but come on, enough is enough. The networks don't care about these people, they want ratings. Pretty sick if you ask me.

JSE

[karl k]

Karl,

What's up man? You are right in that the President does confide in me about what he is really thinking. He's coming here next week to throw back a few colds ones with me. I will be sure to give everyone the "down-low" on what we talk about. :cool: Can secret service guys drink on duty? Nah, probably not.

JSE
It HAS been awhile hasn't it? Everybody was getting pretty deep with the politics and doing more research on the subject than is healthy... for me anyway. I just took a little break from posting and worked on my other projects. Then, when I did check in after some weeks, I find a new "marshal" in town and decided to lay low and see how bad it would get before I open my preverbial mouth and get the boot. This time I just couldn't resist the temptation to reach out and tickle you a bit!:D I'm glad you will keep things real and those secret service guys... I hear they are smokers... not drinkers!;)

Glad to be back for a bit!

Karl K

[dean_martin]

Good news!

The media here in the States have been lying to us.

Wait, that's not good!

Anyway, things in Iraq is going well, with most Iraqis hopeful and CERTAINLY not haters of America.

Quite the contrary.

This curtesy of, of all things, Netflix:

"The producers of this groundbreaking documentary distributed 150 digital video cameras across Iraq to enable everyday people -- mothers, children, teachers, sheiks, even insurgents -- to voice their perspectives on issues such as war, terror and the democratic reform. The result is a unique tableau documenting Iraqis' lives and their hopes as they struggle with years of turmoil and strive to build a civil society. Note: Contains graphic content."

Perhaps it paints a too-rosy picture to a degree, but I'm not so sure. As people talk on camera there IS bombs going off in the background. If it was slanted they would use different clips, edit it out altogether.

WATCH THIS MOVIE.

"Voices of Iraq".

The Iraqis really do appreciate our help. They hated Saddam, are excited about democracy, and believe the problems they are having with terrorists are the result of the other Arab nations trying to stop Iraqis from being free.

Pete

I'm not sure what's going on over there, but I do know that we've been telegraphing our plans for a huge strike on Fallujah for the past few days (maybe even weeks). I wouldn't be surprised if the folks we're after are gone when we do attack or if we see something like Somalia. I saw another report on our preparation for the attack while home for lunch today. For some reason the scene and news setup reminded me of the movie Black Hawk Down in an eerie kind of way. I know our strike force was limited (no bombing or real air support) and our mission was different but still we were supposed to have the element of surprise on our side then. We're certainly not counting on surprise now. We need to continue to keep our soldiers in our thoughts and/or prayers.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I guess it comes down whether or not the President was deliberately trying to ignore certain evidence and whether he knew the evidence was sketchy for a fact or was that just the opinion of some. I feel he weighed everything and unfortunately made a decision based on fautly info. I can't go as far to say he did this knowing he was relying on proven false info. Remember, just about every other country in the UN made the same conclusion. DID THEY ALL LIE?

He knew the information was sketchy, it wasn't just some innocent wrong guess. Colin Powell warned him about going in there on this kind of flimsey evidence, but Bush, and his warmongering buddies pushed forward. He didn't weigh everything(I know you feel this way, but it's not the reality in this case), because if he did, he would have let Hans Blix finish his report, and we would not have been dragged into this quagmire. The UN knew the information was not complete, hence the inspections. We had NO SUPPORT in the UN to go to war with Iraq. And this was outside the usual crooks Germany, France, and Russia. No other country aside from the 28 we have bribe with a economical carrot would join us, or verbally support us.


I feel he did not lie, you feel he did. Nothing we can do about that. But, back to Pete's original post.

Like so many other division we have in this country, now a lie isn't quite a lie anymore. I guess if we Demo's are willing to accept a Clinton lie, you Repubs should be allowed to accept a Bush lie. Fair enough, except wasn't Bush supposed to "restore the integrety" of the White House?


I agree that the media has been very intent on just showing the bad in Iraq.

I am not listening to the media, I am listening to my two cousin on the ground over there. Bush is saying they are training thousands of security forces. My cousin say they don't trust these guys, and don't really want to work side by side with them. Too many infiltration problems. They say they run at the first sign of trouble, and don't want to engage with the terrorist(they are arab after all). A huge oil pipeline was blown up there, setting the economy back. The far north, and deep south seem somewhat tame, but the middle of that country is a fire keg ready to explode.



Why, it's juicy and gets attention. Sure, people and soldiers have died and there are problems but there is also a lot of good being done. We are builing schools, power faciliies, improving oil product, people have their own businesses, people are FREE to do what they want when they want, people are not being gassed for no reason, women are not being brutalized by their own goverment officials, they had an olympic team that was not shot win they did not win. The list goes on and on.

Now the reality. My cousins say everytime they fix something, or rebuild it, the terrorist come and sabotage it. We are spending our money repairing what we have already just built. 60% of all Iraqi's are unemployed, underfed, and have no place to seek medical attention. Electricity is still spotty, and inconsistant because of constant sabotage. Women are still second class citizens, business have to guard themselves againist looters, and the soldiers cannot even trust the people because they don't speak up about where they know the terrorist are hiding. Now this is coming from the ground, not from a news agency. For every one thing good that happens, ten bad things happen. That is not a news problem, it's a security problem.




How many times do we hear about these things on all the networks combined each week? 1 maybe 2 times. Maybe. How many times are we reminded how many soldiers are killed and how many families do we need to see interviewed after their son or daughter is killed? I'm not saying we should not be aware of these things but come on, enough is enough. The networks don't care about these people, they want ratings. Pretty sick if you ask me.

JSE

None of this would be had we not allowed the UN to handle this issue. Had they have failed to handle this correctly, then there would have been a much stronger case to go to war. But they didn't even get a chance to finish, and because of that, this country is 200 million dollars poorer, out 1,100+ fewer soldiers, and have a division in this country so deep over this war, you can throw a million elephants in the gap, and you still couldn't see the bottom. Congratulations on your win, but its a shame you have to cover for such incompetence.

[karl k]

I'm not sure what's going on over there, but I do know that we've been telegraphing our plans for a huge strike on Fallujah for the past few days (maybe even weeks). I wouldn't be surprised if the folks we're after are gone when we do attack or if we see something like Somalia... ... We're certainly not counting on surprise now. We need to continue to keep our soldiers in our thoughts and/or prayers.
Ya, it's alot like blasting the police sirens and skreeching the tires when trying to catch a robber in the act. Still don't get that one.:confused:

[Slosh]

Sure, people and soldiers have died and there are problems but there is also a lot of good being done. We are builing schools, power faciliies, improving oil product...
And can you tell me why we are rebuilding? Did these things fall apart on their own?

...people have their own businesses, people are FREE to do what they want when they want
You are talking about the Iraq on the planet Earth, right?
...women are not being brutalized by their own goverment officials
You're right. Now they're being raped and maimed by thugs of multiple sects.

Dubya's second term: now rednecks rule America!

[RGA]

I agree that the media has been very intent on just showing the bad in Iraq. Why, it's juicy and gets attention. Sure, people and soldiers have died and there are problems but there is also a lot of good being done. We are builing schools, power faciliies, improving oil product, people have their own businesses, people are FREE to do what they want when they want, people are not being gassed for no reason, women are not being brutalized by their own goverment officials, they had an olympic team that was not shot win they did not win. The list goes on and on. How many times do we hear about these things on all the networks combined each week? 1 maybe 2 times. Maybe. How many times are we reminded how many soldiers are killed and how many families do we need to see interviewed after their son or daughter is killed? I'm not saying we should not be aware of these things but come on, enough is enough. The networks don't care about these people, they want ratings. Pretty sick if you ask me.
JSE

Firstly no one argues that Saddam wasn't a bad guy. No one is saying he was Saddam Santa Clause.

However, Iraq did not start a war, Iraq didn't attack America - they may have had some tough talk but the fact remains that Condaleeza Rice and COlin Powel said before 9-11 that Iraq was fully contained and not a threat - Clinton said the same thing. Just because he's a democrat the info was still there by the military. As for schools - Ira is the most well educated country in the region they had businesses which they owned and they were free to do what they wanted. Women were not being stoned there. You want more atrocities Saddam is a veritable nice guy compared to North Korea's nut job, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

In the end it's done - the American right has their view - but this notion that Freedom is on the march (lol people obviously know nothing of other cultures) and that America is safer makes anyone with brains chortle - it ain't true. Though in some ways this is good for Canada - our dollar has risen close to 20cents to the US dollar Since Bush came in and our dollar has always been good when Republicans have been in charge becuase your ecnomy is always in the DUMPER when the Republicans are governing -- we're now hovering around .80(Yee haw I see our dollar getting up to nearly par when Bush's term ends - hopefully you'll get another Republican after that). So in some ways I'm happy Bush is in charge - the growing Anti- Americanism will hopefully grow and grow and grow around the world - don't worry when you go to foreign countries and everyone treats you like crap - HINT - put a Canadian Flag on your shirt so they'll treat you a lot better.

I understand that people down there are moving to all Conservative communities deepening the divide between people sort of like Racism of political beliefs. Chevron did well though and you should all be able to drive your Hummer's around for a good 10 years more at reasonable gas prices. Please give me warning though when it's time to capture our water reserves -

Canada has it all and AMerica will soon run desperately low - Fresh Water will soon be way way more valuable a resource than oil for you folks -Just give me warning when it's time to take it - I want to change citizenship to hmmm, Australia maybe. Because Canada will no doubt be deemed a terrorist state with an evil dictator who bombed you even if it's someone elset. A year's warning is all so I can pack before my school is bombed and then I see on TV how great America is to build a school for me?? Yeah!!

[JSE]

Firstly no one argues that Saddam wasn't a bad guy. No one is saying he was Saddam Santa Clause.

However, Iraq did not start a war, Iraq didn't attack America - they may have had some tough talk but the fact remains that Condaleeza Rice and COlin Powel said before 9-11 that Iraq was fully contained and not a threat - Clinton said the same thing. Just because he's a democrat the info was still there by the military. As for schools - Ira is the most well educated country in the region they had businesses which they owned and they were free to do what they wanted. Women were not being stoned there. You want more atrocities Saddam is a veritable nice guy compared to North Korea's nut job, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

In the end it's done - the American right has their view - but this notion that Freedom is on the march (lol people obviously know nothing of other cultures) and that America is safer makes anyone with brains chortle - it ain't true. Though in some ways this is good for Canada - our dollar has risen close to 20cents to the US dollar Since Bush came in and our dollar has always been good when Republicans have been in charge becuase your ecnomy is always in the DUMPER when the Republicans are governing -- we're now hovering around .80(Yee haw I see our dollar getting up to nearly par when Bush's term ends - hopefully you'll get another Republican after that). So in some ways I'm happy Bush is in charge - the growing Anti- Americanism will hopefully grow and grow and grow around the world - don't worry when you go to foreign countries and everyone treats you like crap - HINT - put a Canadian Flag on your shirt so they'll treat you a lot better.

I understand that people down there are moving to all Conservative communities deepening the divide between people sort of like Racism of political beliefs. Chevron did well though and you should all be able to drive your Hummer's around for a good 10 years more at reasonable gas prices. Please give me warning though when it's time to capture our water reserves -

Canada has it all and AMerica will soon run desperately low - Fresh Water will soon be way way more valuable a resource than oil for you folks -Just give me warning when it's time to take it - I want to change citizenship to hmmm, Australia maybe. Because Canada will no doubt be deemed a terrorist state with an evil dictator who bombed you even if it's someone elset. A year's warning is all so I can pack before my school is bombed and then I see on TV how great America is to build a school for me?? Yeah!!


Actually, I hear our first target will be Soundhounds! :eek: Although, I am sure Audio Note will have created a very simple yet very effective defense system to ward off those pesky Americans. And Soundhounds will of course carry it. Acutally they will carry many of them because they bought out the remaining supply at a special price. :D


JSE

[piece-it pete]

Get sick for a coupla days, miss everything!!

RGA, your personal attacks on folks like me may play well to the left, but where I live calling someone KKK earns a trip outside.

It's easy to be insulting when you're typing words many miles away.

But the mudslinging during the election is SO regrettable.

Strangely enough, Congress was Dem during the Reagan years. Who writes the budget? Oh yeah, Reagan MADE them do it. But wait! He didn't have the Patriot Act, so how?

All surpluses over the last couple of decades are sheer fiction. Our deficit is FAR worse than shown, and NEVER ran a surplus, unless you believe in fairy tales.

We (the evil racist GOP) intentionally devalued the dollar a couple of years ago. We did this so the effects of the recession would be spread through the entire population vs hitting the poor the hardest, while giving exports a short-term boost. It also has the side effect of lowering the real value of our debt.

As our productivity continues to skyrocket, 'cause of the free flow of capitol (not told where it has to go, like so many socialist gov'ts) and the hard work of our citizens, the only likely result is a trend to increased wages and a stronger dollar. Of course, no one can see the future. But things look better than many would have one believe.

I live on Lake Erie - at least our part of the country will be fine with water into the forseeable future. It wil be a problem soon for most - will you give the water away, or sell it?

Facts: We, and the UN, and Germany, and France, and Russia, and Canada had the same Iraqi documentation of the thousands of tons of chemical and biological weapons Iraq had produced.

That they had them NO ONE disputed. The argument was that it wasn't reason enough to invade. Powell, who the left tries to cop whenever they can, even though he works for Bush (?), was obviously on board 100%.

The real concern should be - where are they? Instead, it's - we told you so. Who? And what purpose does this serve?

The US isn't safer. This is quite frankly a load of crap. I haven't seen any buildings come down lately.

And the Iraqis? While one guy was talking to a kid on camera an adult walks by and makes this comment - so quick-like I had to rewind - something like "It would be better to starve than have Saddam as ruler".

Pete

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Facts: We, and the UN, and Germany, and France, and Russia, and Canada had the same Iraqi documentation of the thousands of tons of chemical and biological weapons Iraq had produced.

This is a fact. However UN inspection had not been held in that country since 1998. From that point on no one had verified one single piece of that evidence was true or false. Hence inspections to see if Saddam had destroyed them like he said he did, or he has them like our information pointed out.


That they had them NO ONE disputed. The argument was that it wasn't reason enough to invade. Powell, who the left tries to cop whenever they can, even though he works for Bush (?), was obviously on board 100%.

They THINK and SUSPECTED they had them, but that was not verified. That is why the UN called for inspections of all known(and unknown) manufacturing sites that are have the potential for making these chemicals. The arguement is that that was not our war to fight, it was the UN's. There was absolutely no evidence that Saddam was personally threatening us with anything, he definately had his hands full with Iran, and sanctions. And for the record, Powell was not onboard at all with going into Iraq. It is VERY well documented that Powell had a major beef with Cheney(very personal and not very nice), Rumsfield, and Wolfowitz over this issue. Powell managed to convince Bush to go to the UN for another resolution to force this issue. Powell got the resolution, but it stopped short of invasion. Bush wanted invasion(or war as a consequence), the UN wanted to take the approach in steps. Nothing the UN proposed passed mustard with Bush, he wanted war. Powell was againist this war, and commented to Bush "you break it, you own it". Well we broke it alright, and now we own it to the tune of 200 million dollars and counting. Pretty expensive mistake wouldn't you say.


The real concern should be - where are they? Instead, it's - we told you so. Who? And what purpose does this serve?

We should have asked that question before prematurely going to war. Now they deserve a I told you so because of their hard heads, and deaf ears.


The US isn't safer. This is quite frankly a load of crap. I haven't seen any buildings come down lately.

We are not safer at all. Just because these terrorist are smart enough not to do the same thing twice doesn't mean we are safer. It just means they are figuring out another approach. It's this same kind of short sighted thinking that has made a mess of the post war reconstuction. These terrorist guys are not stupid. They have managed to kill alot of our soldiers with very crude weapons, and alot of patience. They have managed to break pieces away from this so called coalition of the willing(Spain, Philippines) through kidnapping and bombing.


And the Iraqis? While one guy was talking to a kid on camera an adult walks by and makes this comment - so quick-like I had to rewind - something like "It would be better to starve than have Saddam as ruler".

Pete

This may be ONE instance, but in communicating with my cousins they have a very different perspective. The appreciate us getting rid of Saddam that's apparent. They do not appreciate our extended stay, our way of doing things, our disrespect of their religious culture, and our lack of respect of them as people(abu grabe spl?). We have not done enough in terms of security, and they don't feel safe walking the streets because of the insurgency. So all is not as rosy as one would try and make it.

[RGA]

RGA, your personal attacks on folks like me may play well to the left, but where I live calling someone KKK earns a trip outside.

KKK hate gays so doesFallwell aqnd all religious people - they cloak it in words like "we don;t hate you but your a sinner blah blah - these people are WORSE than the KKK at least the KKK are up front and honest about their hate.



Strangely enough, Congress was Dem during the Reagan years. Who writes the budget? Oh yeah, Reagan MADE them do it. But wait! He didn't have the Patriot Act, so how?

Which democrat wrote Reganomicis again? Which Reagan haleped put Saddam in charge of Iraq and helped keep him there? Which country supplied the most arms to Iraq and which weapons were used to gas all those people again - yeah but guns don;t kill people people kill people - nice comfort except to the gassee.



All surpluses over the last couple of decades are sheer fiction. Our deficit is FAR worse than shown, and NEVER ran a surplus, unless you believe in fairy tales.

Never heard Bush say that ever in any debate - you must know more than him -- well I'd hope so so does Forest Gump.



We (the evil racist GOP) intentionally devalued the dollar a couple of years ago. We did this so the effects of the recession would be spread through the entire population vs hitting the poor the hardest, while giving exports a short-term boost. It also has the side effect of lowering the real value of our debt.

Hey no it's either the Evil racists biggetted anti gay GOP or the incompetant GOP - you are certainly welcome to choose the latter if you desire.



As our productivity continues to skyrocket, 'cause of the free flow of capitol (not told where it has to go, like so many socialist gov'ts) and the hard work of our citizens, the only likely result is a trend to increased wages and a stronger dollar. Of course, no one can see the future. But things look better than many would have one believe.

Well that makes no sense - what productivity is skyrocketing - ohh yeah the hard work of foreign slave labourers - but I forgot you're doing them a favour by giving them a job.



live on Lake Erie - at least our part of the country will be fine with water into the forseeable future. It wil be a problem soon for most - will you give the water away, or sell it?

No like most American tactics around the world - we'll sell you the product as we SOLD California hydro electricity to keep the state from going dark a few years ago - we'll charge you a lower rate then we could because Canada doesn't want to piss of the big bad America - and then when it comes toime to pay the Billions and Billions owed to us they pay ZERO. Then on top of that they do the ol' softwood lumber shtick for a thrid time for a SHORT term gain to keep your logger in an overinflated position. We grumble we take you to a world court and like the other two times we won on the same issue we'll win again but not before you got a 5 year run of jobs at the expense of workers and the industry here. And this is small potatoes compared the totallitarian work in Jamaica and Venezuala - making sure they have fair voting priactices like it'sa your job. Gods guns and anti-Gay nationalism sums up the Right pretty well. I'll give 5% of the Republican voters the benefit of the doubt (the ones who are NOT religious) for believing the rhetoric around finances.



Facts: We, and the UN, and Germany, and France, and Russia, and Canada had the same Iraqi documentation of the thousands of tons of chemical and biological weapons Iraq had produced.

That they had them NO ONE disputed. The argument was that it wasn't reason enough to invade. Powell, who the left tries to cop whenever they can, even though he works for Bush (?), was obviously on board 100%.

Please the information everyone had was America's information. Canada, Germany France Russia and Britain combined don't have the intelligence ability of the US. Iraq HAD produced it IRAQ also dumped it as they were TOLD to do and which was shown to be the case. The reason they were inspecting was to make sure they had no more of it or produced more of it. The American proof that Powell went over with that LAUGHABLE display of satelite images (They can read the DATE on a Dime in 1985 from sats in outer space but they can;t make out a truck clearly in 2001???) - See that truck thing there it's moving over there and they have cartons on it see and then that blurry thing over there with the red splotch is this other truck and that is the UN team see they are moving the other truck around. Yeah next time you're on trial for murder - you got love that evidence.

Which is why those countries didn't buy the tripe no one is that stupid (except the Republican voters of course) and why Canada stayed the hell out of it - gee along with France, Germany etc. Good ol Blaier love em was no doubt hoping to be the wing man to help steer Bush as much as possible form the nutty God has told me to free the world fanatacism of delusional dictators.



The real concern should be - where are they? Instead, it's - we told you so. Who? And what purpose does this serve?

Where are they ask Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice and Bill Clinto before 9-11 - they all knew they all SAID it - how a day changes their mind. There is none because there was none.



The US isn't safer. This is quite frankly a load of crap. I haven't seen any buildings come down lately.

1) How many buildings came down before 9/11? How many came down a year after before plans were started to make it safe? This was a fringe group FROM AFGHANISTAN who attacked your country - and you've made a lackluster attempt at getting the culprit - why is that - you fly his family home - and you have a nice brief show of trying to get him bah.

2) safer - US citizens abroad are not safer - embassies getitng bombed way more than ever? more US citizens will die in Iraq by the end of it than that died on 9-11. And what if another attack happens? What will you say then? Just a fluke. That's the other thing wiith the Republicans - PARANOIA - It's pretty sad that I would agree with Pat Buchanen on Foreign policy - he's about as nutty as the right gets but on foreign policy he's closer to being right than most of the Right wing.



And the Iraqis? While one guy was talking to a kid on camera an adult walks by and makes this comment - so quick-like I had to rewind - something like "It would be better to starve than have Saddam as ruler".
Pete

Really it would be better to starve - than have free education all through to your PHD and then leave the country and emigrate to Canada and get a job - now they have no school or running water or electiricty and members of the family dead - yes it's better - let's see who the replacement is and who has the gauranteed contracts of their natural resource.(which has already been contracted without a leader's consent).

One Guy - One Guy interviewed in your street my call Bush the worst scourge to hit manking since Hitler - One guy could be very much overstating things. And according to the Fifth Estate part of the news here which inteviewed MANY Iraq citizens including members of their television networks - you would be VERY interested to have all the information on that scene where Iraqis pulled down the statue of Saddam Hussein and rode the head around. I'm surprised Michael Moore missed this one(probably because he's not a good researcher as he is a jokster) - but that was revealing bit of US propaganda - soince not a single person in the shot was born or came from Iraq. Also of interest was that no one came from the other two ajoining streets - and one happened to have an Iraq flag from many years ago and made illegal just in his pocket. Ohh this ios one small story to the others your media NEVER ina bazillian ytears will show. But this goes back to WWII - your new was just as one sided.

I'm not coming back to this thread - largely because it doesn't matter - The religious Right will never ever even if thy had 100% evidence that Bush outright Lied would listen to it - I mean they have PROVEN beyond any shadow of a doubt that gay men do not choose to be gay but is biological - and even then they try and twist the science around - so there's no point.

You deserve the dictator you elect.

[gonefishin]

RGA,

you are one young kid filled with much hate and ignorance. I do hope you mature in the coming years.


God bless...and best wishes,

dan

[piece-it pete]

This is a fact. However UN inspection had not been held in that country since 1998. From that point on no one had verified one single piece of that evidence was true or false. Hence inspections to see if Saddam had destroyed them like he said he did, or he has them like our information pointed out.


This would have been fine with me - if only Saddam had been cooperative! He kept ACTING like he had something to hide.

He was biding his time, playing us for suckers - again.


They THINK and SUSPECTED they had them, but that was not verified. That is why the UN called for inspections of all known(and unknown) manufacturing sites that are have the potential for making these chemicals. The arguement is that that was not our war to fight, it was the UN's. There was absolutely no evidence that Saddam was personally threatening us with anything, he definately had his hands full with Iran, and sanctions. And for the record, Powell was not onboard at all with going into Iraq. It is VERY well documented that Powell had a major beef with Cheney(very personal and not very nice), Rumsfield, and Wolfowitz over this issue. Powell managed to convince Bush to go to the UN for another resolution to force this issue. Powell got the resolution, but it stopped short of invasion. Bush wanted invasion(or war as a consequence), the UN wanted to take the approach in steps. Nothing the UN proposed passed mustard with Bush, he wanted war. Powell was againist this war, and commented to Bush "you break it, you own it". Well we broke it alright, and now we own it to the tune of 200 million dollars and counting. Pretty expensive mistake wouldn't you say.


The potential payoff is still huge.

Any dissent in the admin is carefully orchestrated and largely show. Call me cynical. What is for sure is that Powell did present our case to the UN, not Rumsfeld.

This was supposed to be the UNs' war? Come on, what are they going to do? Argue Saddam into submission?

How about Frances' contract with Saddam, where when sanctions were lifted they had the right to almost unlimited amounts of oil for $10.00/barrel? They have a permanent veto on the UN security council!


We should have asked that question before prematurely going to war. Now they deserve a I told you so because of their hard heads, and deaf ears.


We are not safer at all. Just because these terrorist are smart enough not to do the same thing twice doesn't mean we are safer. It just means they are figuring out another approach. It's this same kind of short sighted thinking that has made a mess of the post war reconstuction. These terrorist guys are not stupid. They have managed to kill alot of our soldiers with very crude weapons, and alot of patience. They have managed to break pieces away from this so called coalition of the willing(Spain, Philippines) through kidnapping and bombing.


I would call it a coalition of the weak, with some very large exceptions. A shadow UN?

Don't these folks know you should NEVER give in to hostage takers? It encourages them.

You really believe that we're not safer now than 9-12?

Think about it - the worlds' greatest power, spending untold sums of money and thousands of manhours (worlds finest), and have accomplished NOTHING?

Sorry TT, we are safer, and getting more so every day.


This may be ONE instance, but in communicating with my cousins they have a very different perspective. The appreciate us getting rid of Saddam that's apparent. They do not appreciate our extended stay, our way of doing things, our disrespect of their religious culture, and our lack of respect of them as people(abu grabe spl?). We have not done enough in terms of security, and they don't feel safe walking the streets because of the insurgency. So all is not as rosy as one would try and make it.

That was one comment. The movie was made by hundreds of Iraqi citizens.

I will admit, there was some disturbing comments made. Not all was rosy. But the overall picture was maybe ONE MILLION TIMES BETTER than we are told on a daily basis.

We can lose battles and win the war. As a matter of fact, we WILL lose battles. Winning is up to us, and most Iraqis hope we do. They want to be free.

We succeed, we will have friends there for a long time, as well as an answer to those who paint us as an evil oppressor, who teach young boys and girls to blow themselves up taking out civilians.

Watch the movie, hear and see it for yourself. Like I say, not all is a bed of roses, but...

see it yourself.

Pete