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juneaudrey
11-01-2004, 08:35 AM
Hello All,

Have anyone brought HT equipment from an on line store? I'm thinking about purchasing a reciever & it's almost $200.00 cheaper on line.

Which on line store do you recommend? Any problem buying from on line stores?



june

hershon
11-01-2004, 09:34 AM
I do about 80% of my purchases online where I can get from 30-50% cheaper prices then i can get from stores. If the savings is less than 30% I don't bother & will buy it from the store unless its a high priced item. I bought both of my receivers online. I definately recommend though if you buy online to check the seller/seller stores feedback and reputation out before you send payment. For anything over $50 that had little or no feedback rating, I wouldn't do business. Nor would I do business with a place that has lousy or mediocore feedback. Besides using Amazon.com sellers (which are alot cheaper then Amazon) & epinions.com, I'd do a google search on the model humber your looking for where they usually give online stores & their prices which could vary quite a bit.

One interesting fact, apparently on Amazon.com, if you order a TV bigger than 27", they won't pay for any delivery damages to it.

Good luck.

Lensman
11-01-2004, 12:56 PM
Have anyone brought HT equipment from an on line store? I'm thinking about purchasing a reciever & it's almost $200.00 cheaper on line.

Which on line store do you recommend? Any problem buying from on line stores?

I’m sure the folks here would be happy to make recommendations for good online retailers. But they'll need more information. Can you provide some detail about what you’re considering?

I've bought equipment online and, as you've noted, you can get some really great deals. But there are a few things to look for when you buy HT gear or most any other consumer electronics equipment online:

First, look to see if the company is an authorized dealer. If not, there’s a good chance the product manufacturer won’t honor its warranty through that dealer because they aren’t legally obligated to do so. Some unauthorized dealers also sell "gray market" goods. Let’s assume you live in the U.S. This means they’re offering you a deal on something that isn’t meant to be sold in the U.S. market. It may have a Canadian or other foreign warranty and a different model number. The instructions may even not be in English. The manufacturer won’t honor its warranties if its products are sold this manner.

Check the return policy posted on the web site carefully. There is no automatic right to a refund and you may not be able to get your money back if the return policy doesn’t clearly state it. This is another danger in buying from the web site of an unauthorized dealer. If the dealer does allow you to return the item, also check to see if there’s a restocking fee. If the product is not defective, but is still within the return policy they could hit you with something like a 15% restocking fee.

Check the shipping costs. There’s lots of websites out there that offer what appear at first to be great deals, but aren’t so good after the shipping costs have been factored in. If you’re looking at saving $200 on a $500 AV Receiver, but the shipping cost is $75, you might want to rethink purchasing it online. Consider this, if you have trouble with it and you bought it locally, you can just take it back. If you have trouble with it and bought it online, you may have to eat the shipping plus spend another $50 ship it back to the online retailer. The $75 you end up saving may not be worth the hassle and time without the unit.

Be sure the site has a safe payment system. When paying by credit card online make sure that any purchasing is done through a secure web site, preferrably with an SSL connection.

Make sure that all accessories that are supposed to accompany the receiver or other item are included. Check the web site’s product description, then check the manufacturers web site and make sure the descriptions match.

Make sure the company is reputable. As Hershon says, check out feedback. A number of sites like Pricegrabber will give ratings and let you read customer feedback. You can also check for complaints against the company to the Better Business Bureau at: http://search.bbb.org/search.html

After checking against these criteria, a lot of the really incredible deals disappear. But you can still find some really good ones that are worth the added effort.

Hope this helps.

cashlz
11-01-2004, 06:30 PM
I always tend to lean towards the convenience of a local retail as stated before because of alot less hassle if any warranty issues should arise. For example I purchased a receiver locally and had trouble right away, took it back and all was resolved in about an hour of my time as oppossed to several weeks and perhaps more money out of my pocket. Working for a small local business I make every effort to contribute to the "little" guys as much as possible. (although sometimes the idea of saving some cash means I'll take my chances). You may want to check out crutchfields outlet, you can catch some deals there from time to time with full manufacturers warranties on everything. And no I dont work for them :D

hershon
11-01-2004, 08:10 PM
I totally disagree with the above post by cashiz if in fact you can get a warranty from the manufacturer. I've never had trouble getting that & its usually in most sealed items. All you have to do is ask the seller to verify this. But if you can't get a manufacturer's warranty then I in fact agree with cashiz, don't get it online. In regards to helping out the "little guys" as opposed to helping yourself, you think they'd help you pay the bills? As I said, if you save after shipping 30% or more (or 25% on higher priced items) and you can buy from a reliable source online, you'd be a fool not too as long as you're willing to go through a little hassle like waiting time, for it to arrive.




I always tend to lean towards the convenience of a local retail as stated before because of alot less hassle if any warranty issues should arise. For example I purchased a receiver locally and had trouble right away, took it back and all was resolved in about an hour of my time as oppossed to several weeks and perhaps more money out of my pocket. Working for a small local business I make every effort to contribute to the "little" guys as much as possible. (although sometimes the idea of saving some cash means I'll take my chances). You may want to check out crutchfields outlet, you can catch some deals there from time to time with full manufacturers warranties on everything. And no I dont work for them :D

cashlz
11-02-2004, 03:35 AM
The point I was trying to make is that if it means I pay say 5%-10% more (depending upon total dollar amount) to help support the local businesses then I will. I dont know how much your time is worth to you hershon but to me its not worth the headache of fighting shipping and waiting if there is a warranty issue. How often have you ever been reimbursed for return shipping a defective item? I know for a fact J and R doesnt do it. I also stated that there are acceptions to this and that there are times where the savings are significant enough to make it worth while. Are the little guys going to pay my bills? No. Are the people who shop at their local "little guys" going to pay my bills.Yes.
cashlz

HokieVT
11-02-2004, 05:00 AM
I do everything online. There is more variety.

Eric Z
11-02-2004, 06:19 AM
Here's my $.02- I only buy online if the deal is absolutely amazing (>35%) and it's an authorized dealer. The interesting thing is that you will very rarely find that type of a deal. If it's too good to be true, it probably is. My wife bought a few non-audio equipment things online from a store that had a good price. When we received the box, the contents were broken- she tried to contact the online store and they went out of business the next week! Luckily, American Express reimbursed us.

If you find a good retailer, they will work with you on the price. For example, I was shopping for a Yamaha 650/5760 receiver and saw them online for around $300 (msrp is $499). The online dealer wasn't authorized so my local retailer wouldn't match the price. However, what he did do was sell me the floor model for $325. Cashlz made a good point- this way I can return it/exchange it with ease and bring it right to their store if there are any issues with it!!

I'm all for shopping at the local, privately owned shops- I admire how they compete with the corporate, mass market retailers. Remember, if your local retailer really wants your business, they should be able to cut you some type of deal. Just think about what the ease of returning and exchanging is worth to you in dollars and go from there. The thing I hate about the huge, corporate retailers is how they are so impersonal and non-flexible.

I remember when I was shopping for a TV years ago at Best Buy- Sears had it for $75 less, but they were out of stock, so I went to BB to see if they would match the price. They said they can only match the price if I had an advertisement with the sale price. There wasn't an ad since it was Sears' regular price. They wouldn't even call them or look online- needless to say, I didn't buy the TV from BB.

I do agree with HokieVT about the variety online- that's hard to beat!

Regardless of what you decide, make sure you enjoy what your doing. Remember, this is a hobby and we're supposed to enjoy it!

Good luck!
Eric

hershon
11-02-2004, 07:47 AM
First off I'm not defending Best Buy but if in fact they truely wouldn't match a price for you, which is the store motto, you would have had grounds for a great legal suit. Best Buy or any of the large chains are not stupid or obnoxious enough to attempt that. Personally most of the people who work in Best Buy are morons but if you know what you want ahead of time without having to ask them about the product, they're a great place to shop. Same as Circuit City. Some of these chains have online sites where prices on their products differ from what is sold in their retail stores. The Chain store will give you the lower of the 2 prices.

If you have the choice to shop at a chain/"name store"store or a "little guy store", you'd be a total fool, if money were a factor, to buy at the "little guy store" over the chain/"name store". The chain/"name store" store is basically obligated to give you the lowest price being offered locally and will refund the difference, with proof, if in fact you paid more, on a 14-30 day period. Nobody in their right mind seeks to negotiate prices in a store if they can buy the same item at the guaranteed low price from a chain store/"name store".

Your philosophy of 35% sounds reasonable to me (I have a 25-30% after shipping philosophy) but I don't agree with your too good to be true, probably is, philosophy.
I have bought some items at totally amazing prices from (authorized) dealers (who had decent online feedback) at these prices. IE, on Amazon for example, you could see a variance of price on a receiver of several hundreds of dollars between one seller and another for a sealed item. The same on Ebay. In a bunch of these cases, they're selling an excellent product that say, may have been replaced by a "newer model" which is why they've gone down so much in price, but the item is a great deal for the customer.

The best advice is to just use common sense and your gut instinct.





Here's my $.02- I only buy online if the deal is absolutely amazing (>35%) and it's an authorized dealer. The interesting thing is that you will very rarely find that type of a deal. If it's too good to be true, it probably is. My wife bought a few non-audio equipment things online from a store that had a good price. When we received the box, the contents were broken- she tried to contact the online store and they went out of business the next week! Luckily, American Express reimbursed us.

If you find a good retailer, they will work with you on the price. For example, I was shopping for a Yamaha 650/5760 receiver and saw them online for around $300 (msrp is $499). The online dealer wasn't authorized so my local retailer wouldn't match the price. However, what he did do was sell me the floor model for $325. Cashlz made a good point- this way I can return it/exchange it with ease and bring it right to their store if there are any issues with it!!

I'm all for shopping at the local, privately owned shops- I admire how they compete with the corporate, mass market retailers. Remember, if your local retailer really wants your business, they should be able to cut you some type of deal. Just think about what the ease of returning and exchanging is worth to you in dollars and go from there. The thing I hate about the huge, corporate retailers is how they are so impersonal and non-flexible.

I remember when I was shopping for a TV years ago at Best Buy- Sears had it for $75 less, but they were out of stock, so I went to BB to see if they would match the price. They said they can only match the price if I had an advertisement with the sale price. There wasn't an ad since it was Sears' regular price. They wouldn't even call them or look online- needless to say, I didn't buy the TV from BB.

I do agree with HokieVT about the variety online- that's hard to beat!

Regardless of what you decide, make sure you enjoy what your doing. Remember, this is a hobby and we're supposed to enjoy it!

Good luck!
Eric

Eric Z
11-02-2004, 11:05 AM
Good points, Hershon!

I'm not trying to get something for nothing by suing them. Too many people these days just want to sue over anything. What would I have sued for, the $75 price difference, haha- that makes me laugh. As a consumer, I can opt to shop wherever I wish- even if I want to spend a little more money to receive better, more personal customer service!

It's a catch 22 though because if you have complaints, it can sometimes be easier to express your concern to these larger companies because they have much deeper pockets.

Bottom line for Juneaudrey- just make sure you know the online store is in good standing with the BBB and has positive feedback. Additionally, make sure you know the consequences if they aren't authorized and you are familiar with the return policy.

Good luck!

hershon
11-02-2004, 11:19 AM
If you want to spend more money Eric, that is your right, but most people I know prefer to save money and buy the same product at the cheapest price possible. For whatever experience you said you had at Best Buy, I would call that a super exception to the rule if it in fact it happened the way you said, as these chain stores could not stay in business with a reputation as shady dealers who don't honor their store policy on matching the lowest price. Personally, I would never rely on any technical advice or recommendations from anyone who works in Best Buy and to a somewhat lessor degree Circuit City, as these people are generally, there are exceptions to this, total morons. I would rely on information from this board, internet searches for reviews & higher end stores for recommendations on things like TV's, receivers, speakers, etc. when chosing what to buy but I'd use Best Buy, Circuit City or other chains or online placesto buy the product at the cheapest price once you know what you want to buy. Again use common sense and your gut instinct.

Eric Z
11-03-2004, 06:18 AM
I think it's funny how you wrote, "...if it in fact it happened the way you said..." I can understand people on this site may bend the truth a bit and also flat out lie; I am definitely being completely honest regarding this experience. I know I am not alone with the poor customer service at BB, CC, and the like.

I'm just glad I found a retailer that has better prices and service than these stores. However, I do buy CDs and some DVDs there- I can usually find good deals online though.

Nice chatting!
Eric

Monstrous Mike
11-03-2004, 07:16 AM
Can anybody relate a story about this?

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=general&n=350740&highlight=legal+theft+brokerage&r=&session=

PAT.P
11-03-2004, 11:19 AM
Hello All,

Have anyone brought HT equipment from an on line store? I'm thinking about purchasing a reciever & it's almost $200.00 cheaper on line.

Which on line store do you recommend? Any problem buying from on line stores?



june
Im the type that wants to see the product in the store and to listen to it with my music ! I trust the store with owner is there to assist me .He'll even price match and as demo always at lower price with full warranty! Pat.P :)

hershon
11-03-2004, 12:22 PM
The post above is totally wrong if you are interpreting it to mean that stores will match online prices. Repeat after me, no Store will match an online price. The minor exception is a store perhaps matching its own online price.

You can get an excellent receiver, new & sealed online from places like Amazon.com (their sellers not necessarily Amazon) all the prices are listed under the model number and going through Google and checking out various price comparisons as well as the stores feedback. I saved several hundred dollars even with shipping including buying my receivers. The main thing is, you'll have to know what specific brand and model to order from, I would not blindly ask an onsite site for their recommendation. Again, if a place does not have much feedback I wouldn't chance doing busines with them. Shipments have arrived believe it or not very fast.

Ebay used to be a great way to go but not necessarily so anymore as the sellers have gotten greedy with their prices and some of the bidders have no common sense (if the sellers friends aren't bidding up the prices in the first place). Never and I repeat never order anything over $50 from someone with less than 10 feedback and 90% positive feedback. Always carefully read what as being sold as alot of people are selling refurbished stuff and listing as brand new refurbished. The good news on Ebay is there are alot of good electronics type places that sell alot of excellent recently discontinued sealed stuff at great prices that you don't have to bid on. IE, you could have a 2003 JVC receiver that has now been deleted for the 2004 model, and there will be little difference but a huge drop in price.

Again go by your common sense and instinct.



Im the type that wants to see the product in the store and to listen to it with my music ! I trust the store with owner is there to assist me .He'll even price match and as demo always at lower price with full warranty! Pat.P :)

cashlz
11-03-2004, 02:06 PM
The post above is totally wrong if you are interpreting it to mean that stores will match online prices. Repeat after me, no Store will match an online price. The minor exception is a store perhaps matching its own online price.

You can get an excellent receiver, new & sealed online from places like Amazon.com (their sellers not necessarily Amazon) all the prices are listed under the model number and going through Google and checking out various price comparisons as well as the stores feedback. I saved several hundred dollars even with shipping including buying my receivers. The main thing is, you'll have to know what specific brand and model to order from, I would not blindly ask an onsite site for their recommendation. Again, if a place does not have much feedback I wouldn't chance doing busines with them. Shipments have arrived believe it or not very fast.

Ebay used to be a great way to go but not necessarily so anymore as the sellers have gotten greedy with their prices and some of the bidders have no common sense (if the sellers friends aren't bidding up the prices in the first place). Never and I repeat never order anything over $50 from someone with less than 10 feedback and 90% positive feedback. Always carefully read what as being sold as alot of people are selling refurbished stuff and listing as brand new refurbished. The good news on Ebay is there are alot of good electronics type places that sell alot of excellent recently discontinued sealed stuff at great prices that you don't have to bid on. IE, you could have a 2003 JVC receiver that has now been deleted for the 2004 model, and there will be little difference but a huge drop in price.

Again go by your common sense and instinct.

No one is right and no one is wrong but at least give people a chance to give their thoughts without criticizing every word.

hershon
11-03-2004, 02:53 PM
If I post something that turns out to not be true or misleading, I welcome people to correct me and I taken no offense from it & if I did the same to you, don't take it personally.

Most normal people choose to buy at the place where they get the cheapest price for the same quality merchandise. If you chose to want to spend extra money out of your own pocket to support the small businessman because obviously you have enough money to do so, that's your right but most people don't have that luxury.

In regards to matching prices, repeat after me, retail stores will not match online prices unless its possibly from their own web site.

Geoffcin
11-03-2004, 03:25 PM
Step back guys, the election is over.

PAT.P
11-03-2004, 08:44 PM
If I post something that turns out to not be true or misleading, I welcome people to correct me and I taken no offense from it & if I did the same to you, don't take it personally.

Most normal people choose to buy at the place where they get the cheapest price for the same quality merchandise. If you chose to want to spend extra money out of your own pocket to support the small businessman because obviously you have enough money to do so, that's your right but most people don't have that luxury.

In regards to matching prices, repeat after me, retail stores will not match online prices unless its possibly from their own web site.
Maybe in the State they dont but here in Ottawa Ontario Canada if I could prove it they will match the price!!! Pat.P :)

hershon
11-03-2004, 10:13 PM
I'll tell you what. I'll be happy to start a web site for which I sell Plasma HD TV's for $100, etc., etc., and I'm sure the places in Ottawa will match those prices for you.
Maybe in the State they dont but here in Ottawa Ontario Canada if I could prove it they will match the price!!! Pat.P :)

PAT.P
11-03-2004, 10:46 PM
I'll tell you what. I'll be happy to start a web site for which I sell Plasma HD TV's for $100, etc., etc., and I'm sure the places in Ottawa will match those prices for you.
Im talking retail store that is on line in Canada ! Pat.P

PAT.P
11-03-2004, 10:50 PM
Step back guys, the election is over.
"Who won " Pat.P

hershon
11-03-2004, 11:48 PM
"Who won " Pat.P

As far as I'm concerned this proves the US is the stupidist nation around. I don't blame the rich for voting for Bush- if I was loaded I would have voted for him too. But the stupid morons who don't have health insurance, can't buy perscription drugs from Canada, don't want to die in Iraq, they obviously helped reelect this guy and as far as I'm concerned they
deserve to skrewed, they did it to themselves.

HokieVT
11-04-2004, 05:25 AM
As far as I'm concerned this proves the US is the stupidist nation around.
-------------------------

heheheheheh.......own3d

Face it, the hatas tried to make Bush into some kind of evil dictator and the voters didn't buy the BS. They tried and failed. It's over. Move on.

Eric Z
11-04-2004, 08:59 AM
my last $.02- the retailer in which i buy great majority of all my electronics matches online prices as long as they are authorized dealers.

now i'll just sit back and wait for someone to criticize this post and/or tell me i'm lying.

it seems like some people on this site are angry at the world- people need to just chill out and enjoy life! i wish all the effort the general public puts into arguing a point about politics and similar things would be spent on volunteering and the like- Earth would be a much better place.

Okay, now I'll really sit back and await the barrage of criticism!

Enjoy!
EZ

hershon
11-04-2004, 09:13 AM
OK Eric There's a place I looked in the internet in Maine (I'm in LA) that is a large electronics company called Abesofmaine.com This place was selling the TV I eventually bought for the cheapest price I can get in Los Angeles, $1700 including shipping, for $1400 Mitsubishi WS48315 48 In. Widescreen T . It still is listed at that price, check it out. They charge a couple of hundred dollars for moving which is why I bought from the retail store. Your telling me that you're "friendly small retail store" in Chicago (?) would have sold you that same TV for the $1400 online listed price excluding shipping arrangements. Sorry, I find that very hard to believe.


my last $.02- the retailer in which i buy great majority of all my electronics matches online prices as long as they are authorized dealers.

now i'll just sit back and wait for someone to criticize this post and/or tell me i'm lying.

it seems like some people on this site are angry at the world- people need to just chill out and enjoy life! i wish all the effort the general public puts into arguing a point about politics and similar things would be spent on volunteering and the like- Earth would be a much better place.

Okay, now I'll really sit back and await the barrage of criticism!

Enjoy!
EZ

Eric Z
11-04-2004, 11:56 AM
Hershon- First, let me say that my goal isn't to offend anyone or prove a point- I just want to explain what I have here. Also, this thread has been enjoyable! I apologize if my tone wasn't the best in the previos posts.

If it is an authorized dealer, I bet they can at least come pretty close to the price (to make it worth my while to shop there)! I should go there and just check it out- I guess it will be a nice test, haha. However, let's say they will meet me 1/2 way on the price- that might be worth it because I know they have in-house technicians that work on these electronics. I feel a little weary when I buy something online and then need it to be repaired. I like how I can go to one place (or call them) to meet all my needs.

Here's an example of when I bought a new camera last week (it's not as big of a purchase like a TV, but still a few hundred bucks). I saw the brand new Sony P150 7.2mp camera on some crazy website (unauthorized dealer) for $389 (MSRP is $499). I talked with the salesperson and he said, "Odds are they are not authorized, but I can still cut you a deal." He went back to the computer to see what he could do. He came back and said he can sell it for $419. I said that still is too expensive and asked if he can throw something in to make it more interesting- he then went ahead and threw in a 256mb memory stick ($80 value). I wanted to buy that anyway, so it worked out perfectly. Now I know it's not a $2K TV, but it's still good service. When I'm in the market for a TV, I'll definitely shop there.

I asked him how the price impacts his commission. He said the commission isn't a percentage of the sale amount, it's a bonus on how many things they sell. They usually have the MSRP on the item in the store and some items are discounted 5% or so online. In their computer system, there is the bottom line price in which they can sell an item- to get lower than that they need to get approval from a manager.

When I bought my appliances for my new kitchen, the retail for everything was $2300. I printed the pages of their website for the model numbers, walked into the store and said I can get these 3 for about $1700 from the Great Indoors and Sears. He went to the computer and came back with a price of $1650- they exceeded my expectations- that should be the goal of all retailers!

It's called Abt Electronics in Glenview, IL (northern suburb of Chicago). They're great- they're one of the largest family owned electronics/appliances retailer in the nation- 350K sq ft store. They've grown this big because of their outstanding customer service and support.

Now I know saying that they will match everything, is an exaggeration- the price does have to be pretty reasonable. Their motto is, "We say yes to every reasonable request." Reasonable is the word that can get interesting.

hershon
11-04-2004, 01:43 PM
I'm not offended nor am I trying to criticise you or call you to task. If people on this Board hadn't helped me in the past on electronic stuff, I probably wouldn't have even commented regarding your post. I just thought that if I was looking for info and someone might have unintentionally put some misleading info on it, I would have welcomed the right info. In regards to you, more power to you if you can use online web listings to bargain someone down in price. If that works for someone else great. I truly would use that too but at least it hasn't worked for me in LA. I just wouldn't count on that working though in general.


Hershon- First, let me say that my goal isn't to offend anyone or prove a point- I just want to explain what I have here. Also, this thread has been enjoyable! I apologize if my tone wasn't the best in the previos posts.

If it is an authorized dealer, I bet they can at least come pretty close to the price (to make it worth my while to shop there)! I should go there and just check it out- I guess it will be a nice test, haha. However, let's say they will meet me 1/2 way on the price- that might be worth it because I know they have in-house technicians that work on these electronics. I feel a little weary when I buy something online and then need it to be repaired. I like how I can go to one place (or call them) to meet all my needs.

Here's an example of when I bought a new camera last week (it's not as big of a purchase like a TV, but still a few hundred bucks). I saw the brand new Sony P150 7.2mp camera on some crazy website (unauthorized dealer) for $389 (MSRP is $499). I talked with the salesperson and he said, "Odds are they are not authorized, but I can still cut you a deal." He went back to the computer to see what he could do. He came back and said he can sell it for $419. I said that still is too expensive and asked if he can throw something in to make it more interesting- he then went ahead and threw in a 256mb memory stick ($80 value). I wanted to buy that anyway, so it worked out perfectly. Now I know it's not a $2K TV, but it's still good service. When I'm in the market for a TV, I'll definitely shop there.

I asked him how the price impacts his commission. He said the commission isn't a percentage of the sale amount, it's a bonus on how many things they sell. They usually have the MSRP on the item in the store and some items are discounted 5% or so online. In their computer system, there is the bottom line price in which they can sell an item- to get lower than that they need to get approval from a manager.

When I bought my appliances for my new kitchen, the retail for everything was $2300. I printed the pages of their website for the model numbers, walked into the store and said I can get these 3 for about $1700 from the Great Indoors and Sears. He went to the computer and came back with a price of $1650- they exceeded my expectations- that should be the goal of all retailers!

It's called Abt Electronics in Glenview, IL (northern suburb of Chicago). They're great- they're one of the largest family owned electronics/appliances retailer in the nation- 350K sq ft store. They've grown this big because of their outstanding customer service and support.

Now I know saying that they will match everything, is an exaggeration- the price does have to be pretty reasonable. Their motto is, "We say yes to every reasonable request." Reasonable is the word that can get interesting.

stuartlittle
11-07-2004, 06:13 PM
There's no way to generalize about online retailers, it all depends on what you are buying and where you are buying it from. The best purchasing experience of my life occurred w/ a small online company, Orb Audio, while I've also had some pretty sketchy experiences with other online retailers. I think a few manufacturers are a little picky about honoring their warranty only if you buy from an authorized retailer, so double check before ordering if possible.

bignerd100
11-16-2004, 02:24 PM
You and your family go out to dinner at the local chain restaurant. After eating the meal you tip the dim-witted waitress/waiter 15-20% in spite of her not knowing anything about the food, giving you a scripted recomendation of the product... excuse me... dish of the day, and what feels to be the caustic precursor to heartburn. You give this gratuity on top of the full retail price of the food and in spite of the overall lack of service because you recall your stint in the service industry and you do remember having bad nights and not being able to pay the bills, etc.

A waitress gives, at best, GREAT advice on a meal that will satiate you for approxamately 8 to 10 hours.

Your local stereo salesperson can spend hours on multiple occasions with you giving advice, making recomendations, rearanging often heavy equipment all without your making a purchase; just in anticipation of your making a purchase that you will keep and enjoy for several years. After spending this period of time with you he hopes that you will not take this newfound knowledge to the... yes... THE INTERNET.

Of course you can find all of this stuff, this well matched gear that you had the oportunity to audition firsthand, online for less. Or you could haggle with the salesman until he gives you 15-20% off.

Is it fair to audition gear at Mom and Pop's then buy from Crazy Eddie's Online Outlet?

Is it fair to not only refuse to pay full retail at Mom and Pop's but to beat Skip the salesboy down on the price until he looses any commision he may have made?

Tip waitress even if she is not that good. Haggle with salesperson who has given you advice.

If we continue buying online because we can save a little money we will have fewer or even no salespeople left with whom we can look eye to eye and get any sort of advice. As soon as we can all audition specs, glossy photos, and manufacturer propoganda this will be a non-issue. In the time being we should support those who give us good advice, don't support those who give bad advice, and invest some unearned tip money into more worthy causes.

Signed,

Ridiculously-wealthy-stereo-salesman-who-laughs-all-the-way-to-the-bank-with-these-huge-profit-margins (laugh now)

hershon
11-16-2004, 03:20 PM
Hey, if I have alot of surplus extra money, I can totally see where you're coming from. The thing is I don't and alot of other middle class people don't either. So given the choice of paying $100 less online than buying from a salesman/small business owner, I'll take online any day of the week, sorry. In regards to your restaurant analogy, the thing is usually the tip isn't going to be more than $10-$15 or so on the extreme, which is alot less than a savings of $100 or more. Most people will not buy online, unless they either save significantly on the selling price or they can't get the item anyplace else. Salesmen at chains like Best Buy and Circuit City are for the most part morons who know little more than anyone else. Salesmen at more high end specialty stores such as Ken Crane's in LA which specializes in big screen HD TV's know there stuff totally and will match the price of any product they sell within a 30 day period of any store/chain within the area. In regards to mom and pop stores, sorry I don't feel sorry for them, they have to adjust to the times/competition or get out. When I got out of college I could have taken a higher paying much riskier in terms of job security, job in private industry or a more secure not close to the same pay job with much less promotional opportunities, working for the Federal Government. I chose the Federal government & job security and have no regrets as I got a good early retirement package from them and great health benefits. Its called free enterprise & I don't feel sorry for these people one bit.

Woochifer
11-16-2004, 07:19 PM
Hey, if I have alot of surplus extra money, I can totally see where you're coming from. The thing is I don't and alot of other middle class people don't either. So given the choice of paying $100 less online than buying from a salesman/small business owner, I'll take online any day of the week, sorry. In regards to your restaurant analogy, the thing is usually the tip isn't going to be more than $10-$15 or so on the extreme, which is alot less than a savings of $100 or more. Most people will not buy online, unless they either save significantly on the selling price or they can't get the item anyplace else. Salesmen at chains like Best Buy and Circuit City are for the most part morons who know little more than anyone else. Salesmen at more high end specialty stores such as Ken Crane's in LA which specializes in big screen HD TV's know there stuff totally and will match the price of any product they sell within a 30 day period of any store/chain within the area. In regards to mom and pop stores, sorry I don't feel sorry for them, they have to adjust to the times/competition or get out. When I got out of college I could have taken a higher paying much riskier in terms of job security, job in private industry or a more secure not close to the same pay job with much less promotional opportunities, working for the Federal Government. I chose the Federal government & job security and have no regrets as I got a good early retirement package from them and great health benefits. Its called free enterprise & I don't feel sorry for these people one bit.

Well, yes and no. The issue in going online versus brick-and-mortar is whether the product that you're getting is actually same thing.

In economic terms, retail is more than just pushing product, it's also adding value to a commodity by marketing and displaying, providing aftersales service, providing a place to try things out and return them for repair, offering home trials and upgrades, etc. These things add costs onto the products, and if a consumer is willing to forego those kinds of niceties, then obviously they're willing to trade these things for lower costs. The thing about value is that it involves a lot more than just costs, and consumers make their decisions based on value. Cost is but one component of value, not the sole determinant.

The manufacturers of most higher end gear have already decided how they want their products distributed, which is through specialty stores. That's why so many of them do not authorize their products for mail order sales, and will invalidate the warranty for any unit bought through an unauthorized source. Getting back to the value added angle, a commodity with a factory warranty is NOT the same thing as that same product without the warranty. Whether or not it's worthwhile to a consumer to buy a product without the warranty depends on their risk tolerance and whether the savings by going mail order is worth that risk.

The independent shops HAVE already adjusted to the competition. That's the reason why so many of them now offer home installation and design services, because they can no longer survive on the margins provided by the audio and video products alone.

hershon
11-16-2004, 11:26 PM
QUOTE=Woochifer]Well, yes and no. The issue in going online versus brick-and-mortar is whether the product that you're getting is actually same thing.

I agree 100% of what you're saying about a warranty. My whole thing of buying online is if the product is alot cheaper after factoring shipping than what you could get it new from someplace else, assumes you're getting the exact same product sealed new with the same warranty. Therefore you need to verify this before you buy online. If I'm only saving a small amount of money it isn't worth my time.

Here's what I've bought, all new & sealed, online in the past year & what I bought at a retail store:

Online A new sealed Monster surge protector that sells for $84 at all the chains for $47 with shipping, a bunch of new sealed Monster Component Video Cables that would cost me about $300 at the chains for $125 or so from a permanent EBay vendor using buy it now option, an extrental computer DVD recorder that sells for $350 for $140 online with a 1 year warranty, A DVD Lite on Recorder from Circuit City.Com (they don't sell it at their store) that retails for I think $375 for $170 online (that included a full warranty), 2 JVC receivers for about $200 each that retail for about $450 each (with warranty) . What I've bought in stores: $1600 with shipping 48" Mitsubishi HD TV from a high end store in LA that matches the lowest price ( I also paid an additional $250 or so for an extended 5 year warranty), $800 with shipping a 30" Samsung HDTV at Circuit City (Again I bought a 5 year extended warranty for about $200), an HP Media Center Computer that I purchased for $800 also at Circuit City (I bought a 5 year extended warranty direct from HP mainly for free technical help after a year for $250?), & 2 sets of home theater sound systems (5 satellite speakers & a sub each) for about $1250 or so from Orb.Audio. I also spent foolishly about $200 in Monster speaker wire that I could have bought on Ebay for less than $100.

bignerd100
11-18-2004, 08:26 AM
Sorry Hershon. My original post was aimed at the high end retail customer. Circuit City and the like make all of their money by selling buzz words (like DIGITAL, HIGH DEF, and THX CERTIFIED), extended warranties, and gear that is more aesthetically pleasing than it is high performance. Stab your Circuit City salesman in the pocketbook; that will put a small dent in the Wal-Martization of America.

Disclaimer: If there is a speaker in your sytem smaller than a grown mans fist the following rant does not apply to you.

The consumer that I was aiming at was the one who I help to cut through all of the marketing BS that the consumer electronics industry pushes on the public. The customer who I "down-sell" from something that all of the advertising has convinced him he can't live without. The customer who is prepared to spend 3K in one afternoon but leaves having spent only 2K because I helped him weed out all of the shinny lights, bells and whistles, and other supperfluous stuff that he will never use.

You can live without Mom and Pop; ok. This country is taking a turn in that dirrection for sure. I don't want to be left with the choices that large retailers give me though. Soon enough we will be buying Beer Brand beer, Pickle Brand pickles, and Shoe Brand shoes (which will be a subsidiary of Martha Stewart Living by the way).

Restaurant analogy does hold. Meal that satiates for 10 hours = $10 tip; stereo that will last you 4 to 8 years (depending on upgrade-bug-reststance-gene... or lack thereof) = save $100 online? The math is just not jibing man.

Those who are going to haggle, burn bridges, and shop online are going to do just that.
Those who prove to be easy to work with, receptive to good advice, and repeat customers will get substantial discounts on new in box merchandise, favoritism on special manufacturer price drops, favoritism on discontinued merchandise, extra time and effort in dealing with manufacturers on their behalf, etc.

The butcher saves the good cuts for his best customers.
The Wal-Mart Super Store meat shelf stock boy gets pissed if you ask him where the frozen chicken wings advertised in the circular are.

The world may be a beter place if we all spent a little less money (even on online merchandise) on all this stuff and bought a couple of blankets, soup, egg McMuffins and the like for bums.