I need some knowledge

[cam]

Here is my situation, I have the denon 1804 rated at 90x6, power consumption 4.5A (540 watts). I use it as 5.1 only. I have been getting the upgrade itch lately and my 1804 does not have pre-outs. I have looked at the 2805 but more at the 3805 as an upgrade. $1600 Canadian is alot of coin and I could offset it a little by selling my 1804 to a buddy. But then I started thinking how can I keep my 1804 and beat the performance of the 3805 without spending $1600. This is what a came up with so tell me if this is do-able. Get the lesser denon 2105 and use that for my front three channels and use the pre-outs from the 2105 to the 1804 and use the 1804 to power my two di-pole surrounds. This is the way I see it (not looking at the audio watts numbers), the 2105 has a power consumption of 5.3A (636watts) and the 1804 has 4.5A (540watts) for a total of 9.8A max power consumption. The 3805 has a max of 7.1A. Can this set-up work, what exactly would I need to do to hook the two amps together, would I have to always use both master volumes (that would be a pain in the @$$), and would this set-up make the 3805 sound less powerful. Thanks for any replies. All this is just food for thought, I don't want to upgrade if it is not worth it.

[nick4433]

Alright cam, looks like you are itching to upgrade the power department of your audio system because you seem to be doing fine on the processing side of things. Some here may disagree with what I am about to tell you so take it with a grain of salt. The 3805 is a bigger looking receiver but it will NOT satisfy your hunger for more power. Unless you double your current power, you will not see any real benefits in the 3805. Now if you said you wanted more inputs/outputs and better DACs or video upconversion, then I am afraid I will have to shoot this idea down of upgrading to a 3805.
Now I also believe your need to upgrade is just an itch because you are now seeing all these new models around you and you just want to have one right now! My advise is for you to do the following. Sell your 1804 off to a "friend" and change your address (LOL). Then go to a nearest authorized Denon dealer and get your hand on a 2105 (hint?). Now play around and see if your need to upgrade has been satisfied. If not, then stop upgrading to more receivers for power. The next step is to hook up the 2105 to some power amps and let it sing. (more hints?)
IMHO, if you are looking for power then unless you are buying a flagship or near flagship model, it is hard to find it in a receiver. You will need external amplification for quenching that thirst for power.
So stop investing money in receivers with no preouts and get the 2105 (hint again) and start of with a two channle amp and sit back and enjoy buddy.
BTW, the 1905 is a also a decent preamp when hooked to an external amp if you do not care about the folowing, i.e. extra optical inpput, Auto setup wit mic, and some extra S-Video inputs. The processing power is the SAME and both include video upconversion.

[Smokey]

IMHO, if you are looking for power then unless you are buying a flagship or near flagship model, it is hard to find it in a receiver.

Then why are you recommending Denon 2105? :D

If having [extra] ample power is desired and/or required, then the best upgrade might be to go to separates (rather than a combination of receiver and separate power amp).

"My advise is for you to do the following. Sell your 1804 off to a "friend" and change your address (LOL)."Nick

Nick is back! LMAO

[nick4433]

"Then why are you recommending Denon 2105? "

Smoke, I will address this one more time for your benefit. Cam can kill two birds in one stone by buying the 2105. His itch to "upgrade" will cool off and he will get a receiver with preouts to add an amplifier later. I know how much you support me to add an amplifier to a receiver (LOL).

[cam]

And to save money that is why i was wondering if I can use the 2105 for the front three to lessen the load on the power supply and use the power from the 1804 for my two surrounds. Together that could be a powerful system, I think? I know using two receivers is not the ideal way to go but when you already a bought and paid for receiver I would like to use it if I can.

[Woochifer]

If you're using your receiver for 5.1 and don't use a lot of the DSP functions, then I don't see any advantage whatsoever to making the jump to the AVR-2105. If you don't have any audible power deficiencies (and that more typically occurs if you use power hungry compact monitors or panel speakers), then what improvement do you hope to get by upgrading the receiver?

If you make the upgrade, do it for substantive reasons -- better bass management, more flexible connectivity, substantial increase in power, parametric room calibration, clear cut improvement in sound quality, etc. The 1804 dates back only one year and the increase in the power is only 10 watts/channel. Seems like an awful lot of money for a limited gain over what you currently have. From what I understand, that receiver has an auto calibration function, but it lacks the parametric adjustment that's in the 2805 and 3805.

For that kind of money (about $600 for the receiver + the cost of an outboard amp), you're better off upgrading the speakers or investing in room treatments (bass traps, acoustic panels, and/or a parametric equalizer for the subwoofer). Those investments make tangible and clearly audible improvements, rather than the more subtle changes that receiver swapouts give you.

[cam]

If you're using your receiver for 5.1 and don't use a lot of the DSP functions, then I don't see any advantage whatsoever to making the jump to the AVR-2105. If you don't have any audible power deficiencies (and that more typically occurs if you use power hungry compact monitors or panel speakers), then what improvement do you hope to get by upgrading the receiver?

If you make the upgrade, do it for substantive reasons -- better bass management, more flexible connectivity, substantial increase in power, parametric room calibration, clear cut improvement in sound quality, etc. The 1804 dates back only one year and the increase in the power is only 10 watts/channel. Seems like an awful lot of money for a limited gain over what you currently have. From what I understand, that receiver has an auto calibration function, but it lacks the parametric adjustment that's in the 2805 and 3805.

For that kind of money (about $600 for the receiver + the cost of an outboard amp), you're better off upgrading the speakers or investing in room treatments (bass traps, acoustic panels, and/or a parametric equalizer for the subwoofer). Those investments make tangible and clearly audible improvements, rather than the more subtle changes that receiver swapouts give you.
The improvement I would be looking at would be more power, but know one has told me whether it can even be done. I know the jump from the 1804 to the 2105 would be barely noticeable, that's not what I am looking at. What I am looking at would be bettering the 3805 whithout paying $1600. I already have the 1804, can I use the 2105 for the front three channels and then use the pre-outs to hook up my existing 1804 for my two surrounds. The way I see it is, two power supplies, one handling three channels and the other handling two channels. Each power supply would be producing with little strain, thus creating lots of power. I would only be out of pocket for the 2105 since I already have the 1804. If it can be done, would I still be able to level match all my speakers properly, would having two master volumes screw things up, or should I just forget the whole thing and sell my 1804 to a buddy and get the 3805, or even better, a dedicated processor with a seperate 5 channel amp which I will have to buy sometime in the future once I have some spare change. Thanks for your replies.

[nick4433]

"The improvement I would be looking at would be more power, but know one has told me whether it can even be done. I know the jump from the 1804 to the 2105 would be barely noticeable, that's not what I am looking at. What I am looking at would be bettering the 3805 whithout paying $1600"

Maybe you did not read my post completely. I did tell you about not receiving "power" benefits from a 3805. You will need external amplification or go for a near flagship or flagship receiver.

[Woochifer]

The improvement I would be looking at would be more power, but know one has told me whether it can even be done. I know the jump from the 1804 to the 2105 would be barely noticeable, that's not what I am looking at. What I am looking at would be bettering the 3805 whithout paying $1600. I already have the 1804, can I use the 2105 for the front three channels and then use the pre-outs to hook up my existing 1804 for my two surrounds. The way I see it is, two power supplies, one handling three channels and the other handling two channels. Each power supply would be producing with little strain, thus creating lots of power. I would only be out of pocket for the 2105 since I already have the 1804. If it can be done, would I still be able to level match all my speakers properly, would having two master volumes screw things up, or should I just forget the whole thing and sell my 1804 to a buddy and get the 3805, or even better, a dedicated processor with a seperate 5 channel amp which I will have to buy sometime in the future once I have some spare change. Thanks for your replies.

More power for its own sake does not answer the question. What actual improvement do you think you will get by increasing the power? Is it the power that concerns you, or the sound quality that you're looking for? Power output alone does not automatically equate to sound quality.

I think you need to first define a goal, and then try out the 3805 to see if it indeed helps you meet that goal. If you can't hear a tangible improvement with using just the default decoding modes, then that should answer your question. Other things on the 3805 like the more powerful processors and the parametric calibration feature also factor into the overall sound quality, and are not part of the 2105. But, what you're trying to isolate here is whether the extra power alone makes a difference in the sound quality, and to do that you need to do your comparison using just the defaults. If you do hear an improvement with the 3805, then you need to figure out whether that improvement is due to the higher power output on the 3805, or other factors like the higher quality DACs.

The 1804 has preouts, so all you'd have to do is use the 2105 as the main and level match the 1804 with a test tone and SPL meter. But, IMO relieving the power supply on one receiver is not going to make a noticeable difference unless you have a large room and/or use difficult to drive speakers. Your 1804 is practically brand new, so I don't see the benefit to adding a 2105. Make a real upgrade when the timing is right.

I bring up the speaker and acoustical issues because in my experience, those types of changes make for clear cut and substantial sound quality improvements. An acoustical treatment like sound absorbing panels or using a parametric equalizer with your subwoofer is far less expensive and makes a very noticeable improvement in sound quality. The difference when you upgrade a receiver is far less audible and costs more.

[cam]

Thanks for your replies. I'm going to make my next receiver and or amp be a big step forward so I will have to sit for awhile until money permits.

[Bryan]

In addition to all that there is now one more thing for your consideration. The Onix Emo Ultra Lite will be making its debute next March and will go for $1,200 US. Now, you may be able to go onto the pre-order list and get it for $1,099 US. This will move you into the world of separates. Here's the link: http://forum.av123.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5132