turntables vs record players? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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Lord Nikon
10-15-2004, 11:22 AM
Is there a difference? I am interested in playing records and running it through my A/V receiver. Any recommendations for decently priced ones?

markw
10-15-2004, 01:31 PM
One was sold at the better stores and the other was sold in mass market stores. Generally, turntables were of better quality than record players but ultimately, the terms were interchangable.

Back "in the day", turntables were defined as purelt manual single play units, where you put the arm on the record and lifted it up at the end, with better motors, heavier platters and more sophisticated arms and record players (or changers) were inexpensive (generally) multiple play units, where one record would drop on another so youcould play up to 5 - 6 record sides without getting up.

Things got confusing when turntables incorportatd automatic features such as fully automatic operation. You press a button and the arm places itself oh the record and picks the arm up at the end and returned it to the rest. These became known as "automatic turntables".

Then, there were some fairly sophisticated "record players" that were as good as any turntables but also had the option of playing multiple records. Dual and Benjamin/Miracord come to mind as two of the better manufacturers although most "in the know" would forgo the multiple play function and use them simply as automatic turntables.

I had a nifty Miracord 50 MkII for quite a few years, until my ex wife took a fit and wanted to see if itcould fly out of a second story window. Note the word "ex" in the previous sentence.

What price range and what features are you looking for? Current models can cost a fortune but there's always the used market if you're feeling froggy.

Lord Nikon
10-15-2004, 05:10 PM
Well I do not want to spend a fortune. I was thinking in the under $200 range or something if that is even possible.

markw
10-15-2004, 05:26 PM
Can your amp/receiver handle a phono input? These are different than the standard run of the mill "line level" inputs that work for CD's, DVD's and tape decks. Phono cartridges pump out a much lower signal and need an additional stage of amplification. These run from $30 or so up to several thousand, with a good price/performance ratio starting around $100 or so.

If you need one of these, that will cut into your budget somewhat.

N. Abstentia
10-15-2004, 06:42 PM
If you just want to play records, have a look at this one:
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATPL50&Category_Code=TURN

It's got a preamp already built in, and it's defeatable if you don't need it. If you don't want to get seriously into upgrading cartridges and buying $300 mats this will do you fine.

The funny thing about turntables is that you seem to have no middle ground unless you want to spend over $700 for a table. It's either an old used table, a table in the $100 range which has limited upgradeablilty, or a fully manual table with no frills starting at around $300.

Why can't somebody just make a good solid table for a good price that is at least semi-automatic? I just can't understand why anyone would spend over $300 on a turntable and it won't even lift the freaking needle up at the end of the record. That's just asanine to me. Personally, I want an 'entry level audiophile' table, such as a Music Hall 2.1 but it's fully manual, as are all of them in this range. No thanks.

Garrardman
10-19-2004, 01:06 AM
The turntable linked to by N.Abstentia is a pretty nasty piece of plastic junk and will sound fairly awful, but will do the job if you just want to play an occasional record and aren't too worried about ultimate sound quality.

If you want better quality, check out the Pro-ject range as i'm sure one of their cheaper models has auto end-of side lift off, they're reasonably priced and very good quality IMHO.

Adam.

N. Abstentia
10-19-2004, 03:39 AM
I don't think it's a 'nasty piece of junk' by any means. Does it sound anywhere as good as a $500 Project table with a $400 needle? Of course not. It plays records, does it fairly well, and does not break the bank. Would I have one? Probably not. I'm still searching for that sub $300 table with the features I want.

markw
10-19-2004, 03:55 AM
How much does it cost?

If we're going this route I would have recommended the MMF Music Hall TT's and a NAD phono stage but we're still trying to tie down a price range.

musicoverall
10-19-2004, 04:47 AM
Well I do not want to spend a fortune. I was thinking in the under $200 range or something if that is even possible.

I believe Music Hall makes a turntable that's around $200... seems to me it's the MMF 1.1? As I recall, the cartridge is hardwired and not upgradeable. If you coupled this with a Radio Shack phono stage, I think you could get into reasonably good sounding vinyl at around $250-260. The Radio Shack phono stage is affectionately called the "Little Rat" but I'm afraid I don't know it's true name. It's received good reviews, though.

The problem with this rig is the cartridge. If it will work for you in the long run, it's good. If you ever want to upgrade, you'll have to start over. And I don't think it lifts records at the end.

hifimaster
10-19-2004, 05:20 AM
I believe Music Hall makes a turntable that's around $200... seems to me it's the MMF 1.1? As I recall, the cartridge is hardwired and not upgradeable. If you coupled this with a Radio Shack phono stage, I think you could get into reasonably good sounding vinyl at around $250-260. The Radio Shack phono stage is affectionately called the "Little Rat" but I'm afraid I don't know it's true name. It's received good reviews, though.

The problem with this rig is the cartridge. If it will work for you in the long run, it's good. If you ever want to upgrade, you'll have to start over. And I don't think it lifts records at the end.


The mmf 1.1 is discontinued. The mmf 2.1 has an upgraded adjustable tone arm which can accept other cartridges and is fully manual. List price is near $300, but you can find it cheaper. A very nice entry-level 'table.

James

Resident Loser
10-19-2004, 05:52 AM
...of the snooty-@$$, know-it-alls who denigrate all the mass market stuff...

Audio-Technica produces respected mics and carts, so I don't think they are going to produce a "nasty piece of junk". Way back when, Garrard changers were considered to be of that ilk by the "cognescenti"...I dunno, I still have my old Heathkit/BSR changer e/w a Stanton 681EEE cart and 78 stylus for my 78 collection...does what it is supposed to and does it very well...even after nearly 35 years...plastic and all! I also have a Philips 212(with nose "nasty" nylon tone-arm bearings) and a Stanton 881s for my 33s and 45s. Tsk, tsk...poor, tin-eared SOB...

The AT-PL50 TT has specs close to that of their PL120...no bells and whistles...just a simple TT w/built- in phono pre-amp...it seems to be readily available at BB and CC and maybe even Cambridge Soundworks...and Crutchfield...maybe it's just "too" available for the sensibilities of some...

Stanton has their STR8-30 @ $149.99 and a pricier STR8-80 @ 259.99...both have carts and facilities for cart upgrades(should you feel the need to do so) and built-in phono pre-amps...

So for a hunnert or two, you can test the water and see if the "vinyl frontier" is your cup-of-tea...just because they don't have space-pod sorbothane feet, a platter so heavy it takes 20 minutes to come up to speed, or a separate tone arm that requires lasers and a GPS for proper set-up, and a MC cart, whose output is so low, that it requires an esoteric add-on pre-amp to the pre-amp(all housed in hand-hewn walnut) to be useful, that doesn't mean it won't be perfectly satisfactory in practice...

jimHJJ(...good luck and good listening...)

Garrardman
10-19-2004, 06:44 AM
Yes, the AT will be "perfectly satisfactory" in use - i was trying to suggest that we could aim for something a little better.

The reason i denigrate the "mass market" stuff like this is not because i am a "snott-@$$ Know-it-all" but because i have seen enough of these things to know thay are a bit of a joke. The arm has very little or no adjustment for tracking force so the stylus has every danger of damaging your record and the turntable bearings might as well be made of cheese for the amount of play in them .It is all very well for people to preach how vinyl is "enjoying a revival" or "sound better than CD" and as a result Joe (or Joanna!) Public goes out and buy one of these plastic wonders - no wonder he or she is disappointed and wonders what the hell the vinyl-philes are talking about!

Anyone looking for an occasional use deck would be far better off buying something secondhand and decent such as an old Garrard, Thorens, Pioneer, Yamaha etc. than buying one of these.

JimHJJ,

Congratulations on owning the Garrard and Philips decks - they are both fine examples of simple, quality turntables that were properly designed and not just thrown together on a budget. There is nothing at all wrong with the nylon bearings on the Philips until they wear out, which they will do faster than on a metal-bearing armed turntable.

Finally, as to the Stantons you mention, these should also be avoided unless you're using them for what they were intended - DJing. They have short, straight arms which only track at the correct angle at one point in the centre of the record and WILL lead to damage of your vinyl over time.

Adam.

brigrizzme
10-19-2004, 10:56 AM
Here is a short list of nice tables in your range "used"

-Rega 3
-Rega 2
-Music Hall
-Thorens

Good luck.

Mr Peabody
10-19-2004, 06:59 PM
I always thought of record players as having ceramic cartridges and very inferior sound quality compared to a real turntable. I had a Pioneer PL-51 for about 20 years. It broke once and I bought a fancy Technics which I just placed the cartridge on it from the Pioneer. I took the Technics back and had my Pioneer fixed because it sounded better. When I upgraded my amp and speakers I was at a crossroads with vinyl, sell mine and forget vinyl or upgrade my turntable as well. I bought a Rega P3 and it wasn't until I heard this P3 that I realized how incredible vinyl can sound. The point of this is 2 things, there's a difference in turntables and with a good one you will understand why people still listen to vinyl. Yes, the cartridge makes a huge difference in sound quality but so does the turntable, the thought that it's only the cartridge is a myth. You will notice with better cartridges that the background noise greatly decreases.

If you have to stay under $200. go used. New you can buy a Music Hall with Goldring cartridge for about $299. and Project also offers a rig for around that price. The Music Hall got great reviews.

If you get a turntable with Moving magnet or Moving Coil cartridge you will need a phono preamp if your receiver don't have one built in. Don't skimp on the phono stage, it's as significant as the DAC in a cd player. If you have to buy an outboard the Creek OBH-8 is hard to beat at about $159. to $199. depending on where you shop. If you are lucky you might find one on Ebay. I had this piece with my Rega for awhile and I had to spend much more than it's cost to find anything to outperform it. It has pure class A circuitry and sounds incredible for the money.

If you are a person who is a critical listener spend the money and do it right, you will find it was worth it. Especially if you already have vinyl you hung onto. If you don't already have vinyl and don't want to spend money, I'd say forget it and buy more cd's. The point I'm trying to make is that depending on your cd player a good turntable will sound better or at least as enjoyable. My cd player cost over $3k, my turntable with cartridge I think was close to $1k and with the Creek phono stage the turntable was as enjoyable as my cd player. I can't say which sounds better because honestly they have different presentations, I don't think I can make that choice. There's aspects of both I wouldn't want to lose and the sound of either depends on the quality of the recording. I have an Acoustech PH-1 phono stage now. With this phono stage the scales are actually tipping slightly toward the turntable for better sound but you can't beat cd for convenience.

hifitommy
10-23-2004, 10:56 AM
http://www.redtrumpet.com/hardware/item.php?item=13572&dept=59&sid=1097392404

this is a fine table/arm combo and is close to your budget. it will give you a taste of 'the real deal'. i am pretty sure you wont turn back after owning this.

jrflanne
10-27-2004, 05:56 AM
You may want to check out http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.46/.f. They have a whole host of turntables and accessories. NAD also makes one. $200 new may be pushing the quality limit so you may want to check out the used market on audiogon. I bought a used Systemdek IIX for $300 and it sounds pretty good. As previously mentioned, you will need a phono pre-amp. I bought a NAD for $80, but much better can be had for more but probably not at that price.