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KRiTiKaL
09-28-2004, 08:08 PM
Can someone give me a suggestion for a full range 2 channel system?

I am thinking of a sub and bookshelf, or floor models? How about some ideas.

Room is 20x20 feet and concerning $$$, less is more! Thanks all.

RGA
09-28-2004, 10:09 PM
More to a sound system than specs and measurements. Good bass costs money - deep bass might not but good bass does. And then what about how good the music sounds?

kexodusc
09-29-2004, 06:48 AM
More to a sound system than specs and measurements. Good bass costs money - deep bass might not but good bass does. And then what about how good the music sounds?

I think what RGA's trying to say is...how much $$$ are you budgeting for this purchase?
:D

topspeed
09-29-2004, 09:42 AM
While you're answering RGA's and KC's questions, how about telling us what you listen to, what you are going to be driving them with, any placement issues, etc. The more info, the better.

bargainseeker
09-29-2004, 10:16 AM
More information would be helpful. However, I'll make an initial recommendation on a bargain priced 20 Hz to 20 KHz speaker system for music listening to get the discussion rolling.

Get a pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 bookshelf speakers (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170.html) for $328 plus shipping. The frequency response for the CBM-170 is shown here (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170meas.html).

Add an SVS PB10-ISD subwoofer (http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb10_isd.htm) for $399 plus shipping. The frequency response for the PB10-ISD is shown here (http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb10_isd_response.htm).

Total cost for all three: around $800.

Assumptions: I assume that you do not plan to listen to music at rock concert volume levels. I also assume that your receiver or preamp has a subwoofer output jack since the PB10-ISD has no internal crossover.

This Guy
09-29-2004, 11:28 AM
If you are just listening to music on this, why do you need it to go down to 20 hz? You only need to go this low is if you listen to pipe organ music. 30-40 hz would be fine with just about every other genre.

RGA
09-29-2004, 12:04 PM
If you are just listening to music on this, why do you need it to go down to 20 hz? You only need to go this low is if you listen to pipe organ music. 30-40 hz would be fine with just about every other genre.

I disagree with this - my speaker goes down to 25hz and the E version goes down to 12hz usuable 17hz-6db. The bass envelope is noticable on a lot of recording and not just pipe organ - which is why so many speakers rated to around 35hz in the form of a standmount sound very much hackled off compared to my Wharfedales rated at 40hz.

Then there speakers from Totem that on the spec sheet get very close to my J's but sound severely lacking in overtones in the deep bass registers even into basic rock recordings. How does it do at 90db versus 60db kinda deal. And the J bass distortion is extremely low under 1% so it's not a box noise adding bass.

This why i have a problem with buying off a spec sheet or even the rudamentary measurements abound - there is bass depth but how does the bass sound. I have compared big floorstanders to my speakers that have bass but it sounds leaden like a a thuddy bass. I'm sure the spec doesn't lie when it says 30hz but either of my speakers sound more tuneful. So few speakers do this so maybe not many understand what is really meant by Tuneful bass response in rather soft subjective "listening" experience terms. This may also be a reason that some reviewers who compared the E's bass ability with organ music in terms of tunefullness while the other speaker tested had MORE deep bass power in terms of attack but lacked the musicality tunefull nimbleness in the lower registers.

Granted if yyou just want rock a speaker that can play 40hz with sizeable force should be enough for most people. My Wharfedales would be perfect for fans of rock with a Fostex(or oem) ring horn tweeter and 10 inch woofer big front port and work reasonably well in corners or anywhere really, and crossover controls for the treble and midrange. They can play to about 119db with astonishing bass impact. They are a bit sloppier - a mid bass rise no doubt that my J doesn't have. But that rise can sound very enjoyable for rock.

This Guy
09-29-2004, 12:35 PM
My speakers are rated to go down to 30 hz, and they do. My sub only goes down to 35 hz, but the sub plays the llower frequencies just so much cleaner and louder. If I play them full range they just don't sound as good. I know what you're talking about and I agree. I personally haven't listened to any full range speakers so I wouldn't really know what that would sound like. I was more referencing him in getting a stand mount that can get down to about 80 hz, and just get a nice sealed sub that can go from there and rolls off at about 35-30 hz. It would be fairly inexpensive and sound nice (obviously only if he gets equpiment he likes).

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-29-2004, 01:35 PM
I know of no "inexpensive" full range speakers that have clean output to 20hz. The ones that do offer clean 20hz bass, cost a bundle(mine where about approx$ 2200 per pair) I think bargainseeker has the best solution for getting 20-20khz at a reasonable price.

Clean deep bass requires either agressive equalization, or a large box. Agressive equalization require an extremely durable driver with a long stroke. Not cheap. 70% of a speaker price comes from the box itself. The larger the box, the more expensive the speaker. The most economical way of getting full range performance lies in a quality sub sat system

KRiTiKaL
09-29-2004, 01:46 PM
Most likely will power with 45wpc(have not picked a system)

Have probably $2000, I listen to R&B, Jazz, Metal, Rap, Live music. Just a system that reproduces the dynamic range at a not overly-loud level. I like my sound about 90decibels. Room is open and ceiling is 9feet high. I sit about 10 feet average from front. This will be used for a HT later on.

I am interested in the ascends. The chart shows roll off about 10khz tho.

KRiTiKaL
09-29-2004, 02:54 PM
think 45wpc is enough volume?

Let me clarify my music preference: #1.Slayer/Pantera style Metal #2.Norah Jones/Sarah Brightman voice highs #3.Drum&Bass/Rap bass dependent. In order pretty much matter of importance.

With both products having a 30+ day guarantee, I might try ascend with a SVS.

Any advantages of tube vs box, from actual owners? I am looking at the 39 inch tube.

Thanks much

RGA
09-29-2004, 03:06 PM
Here is a rule of thumb - if you can hear male vocals out of your sub you have bad bass period end of discussion - and I have heard awefully expensive ones do that. hen people will talk about where they're crossed over - but IMO this should not even be an option.

The problem with most full range speakers is that when you find a good spot for the midrange and treble you might get boomy bass. I think the main reason Audio Note is able to succeed at getting tremendous bass from relatively small cabinets and one 8inch driver is that they take into account the rear and side walls as well as the floor bounce and will get very similar results from room to room - presuming your room has 2 corners in it. Most do. But again Sir Terrance notes that it's not cheap.

Now i have heard some very deep(or 35hz very powerful and very loud) subs from Paradigm which whenever I build my home theater(very low priority for me) I would be extremely happy with and only cost about $800.00Cdn. Musically It wouldn't cut it for me.

I had that option of going with a $1k sub and my Standmounts which were good to 36hz. Or Spend that $1k and get a bigger standmount which is good 25hz. There was no doubt that the latter option was and is the better option musically. Having bass come from a seeming front source point source is indiscribably better in my view. Even big floorstanders with similar bass depth sound as though the bass is thudding from the floorboards. Imaine 25hz coming from ~2.5feet off the ground - projecting up where the stage is. Non Directional subs my ass.

KRiTiKaL
09-29-2004, 03:35 PM
Just tried a search for this and I remember reading about it some where. What is a good male voice(500hz < ?) to do a test?

Audio Note seems very pricey, but as was stated "its not cheap". I believe that to a point but when(not in your case) does the cash flow stop on speakers? I mean above $10k for a pair of speakers. I am a carpenter and making a nice cabinet is not hard for even the novice. So basically it is all the components you are buying? I read in another post $1million for some speakers. KRIKEY! Its prob me though because I am tight with money. I love good sounds no matter.

bargainseeker
09-29-2004, 03:46 PM
Most likely will power with 45wpc(have not picked a system)

Have probably $2000, I listen to R&B, Jazz, Metal, Rap, Live music. Just a system that reproduces the dynamic range at a not overly-loud level. I like my sound about 90decibels. Room is open and ceiling is 9feet high. I sit about 10 feet average from front. This will be used for a HT later on.

I am interested in the ascends. The chart shows roll off about 10khz tho.It takes some practice to read these frequency response charts. The on-axis chart provided by Ascend Acoustics shows the CBM-170 speakers flat to 18KHz and down about 3dB at 20KHz. For independent measurements of the CBM-170s see the Soundstage measurements of the CBM-170 (http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/ascend_cbm170/). In particular, see Chart 2 for the frequency response within a +/- 15 degree listening window. If properly positioned and adjusted, the combination of the SVS PB10-ISD and Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s should give you 18Hz - 20KHz +/- 3dB. Please note: I do not recommend any other of the Ascend Acoustics speakers.

I am not sure if your $2000 budget is for speakers alone or for speakers + receiver/preamp/amp. If the $2000 is for speakers alone, you may want to consider upgrading the subwoofer and getting 5 (or 6 or 7) CBM-170s for a complete home theater system. Alternatively, you could get two even higher quality bookshelf monitor speakers with an upgraded subwoofer. At $2000, you are also in the low end of a pair of floor standing speakers that are capable of full range reproduction without a subwoofer.

45 watt per channel should be more than adequate for powering efficient speakers such as the CBM-170s for music listening under the conditions you specify. However, I am not so sure that it will be adequate for home theater use. Many movies have greater dynamic range than music. For this application, you may want to get more power per channel.

Pat D
09-29-2004, 03:57 PM
Most likely will power with 45wpc(have not picked a system)

Have probably $2000, I listen to R&B, Jazz, Metal, Rap, Live music. Just a system that reproduces the dynamic range at a not overly-loud level. I like my sound about 90decibels. Room is open and ceiling is 9feet high. I sit about 10 feet average from front. This will be used for a HT later on.

I am interested in the ascends. The chart shows roll off about 10khz tho. Almost any good speaker will go up to 20 kHz or above, and really, above 15 kHz is of very little importance. To get deep bass at a reasonable cost requires a subwoofer. So you could probably get a subwoofer from Hsu or SVS with useful bass to 20 Hz, a pair of bookshelf speakers or small towers, a receiver and a DVD player (they play CDs, too!) and stay within 2 grand.

You don't specify which Ascend Acoustics speaker you have in mind. Anyway, I looked up the review of the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 on Soundstage and it does go up to 20 kHz--no sign of a roll off there. Is there on some other model? It doesn't do too much below about 70 Hz, but should do well with a subwoofer as long as you don't want to play it too, too loud. Its sensitivity is measured as 89 dB by the NRC but its impedance in the upper bass looks to be about 4 ohms, so you would want a receiver that will drive 4 ohm speakers.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/ascendacoustics_cbm170.htm

Somewhat less sensitive (87 dB) is the Energy Connoisseur C-3, which seems to have useful bass to about 40 Hz. It costs somewhat more, too, but you still should be able to fit it in a 2 grand system. I have heard it and it is quite nice.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/energy_c3.htm

As for priorities, I think it is important to find main speakers you really like than to have deep bass. Listen to as many good speakers as is practical. They are what put out most of the sound. If the main speakers you like take up too much of the budget, you might have to compromise on getting good bass down to 20 Hz, or put it off until later.

Do you have any idea how loud 90 dBa really is? It's pretty loud. :) Get yourself a Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level Meter, Cat. No. 33-2050 (thats the preferred analog version) to see. It's also useful to keep your listening levels safe so as not to damage your hearing, and is also useful for setting up a subwoofer or a home theatre system.

Geoffcin
09-29-2004, 04:37 PM
Can someone give me a suggestion for a full range 2 channel system?

I am thinking of a sub and bookshelf, or floor models? How about some ideas.

Room is 20x20 feet and concerning $$$, less is more! Thanks all.

My Audio system goes even further, more like 14hz-40khz, and that's not anything that makes it "better" in any way. The thing that makes it better is that I like it, therefore it's "better" for me. Great speakers don't always have to go down into the 20's. Fully 95% of all music has NO audible content that low. If you've got 2k to spend on your speaker system then you have a LOT of choices available to you. The best advise I can give to you is go out and audition some speakers. Hit Magnepan.com and see who's your local dealer. You owe it to yourself to at least hear them.

Woochifer
09-29-2004, 05:01 PM
My question to you is why you're trying to find a full range speaker? Most subwoofers don't go down to 20 Hz, most music notes don't come close to hitting that range, and even explosions in action pics don't always go that low. It's a LOT of expense to try and find a speaker that can do the full range and do it well.

Also, don't get too wound up on the measurements and specs. Even if a speaker measures perfectly under lab conditions, it will sound far from perfect once you stick it inside a typical living room. Once the sounds go below about 200 Hz, they are VERY heavily influenced by the room acoustics. The variation in room acoustics is the reason why it's almost pointless to do subwoofer comparisons in a dealer's demo room.

As you go lower into the bass range, the room dimensions, the listening position, and the placement play an increasingly significant role in how the bass sounds. Wave interactions can create huge peaks that result in booming headsplitting bass or they can cancel each other out and make the bass sound hollow and thin. If you have the wrong combination, it will not matter how well a speaker or speaker/sub combination measures up on paper -- those room effects will affect ALL speakers unless you change the positioning or use equalization. The subwoofer's main advantage is that you can move it to where the bass response sounds fullest and most even, and that spot within the room is rarely where the sound is best for the main speakers.

IMO, go with the main speakers that sound best to you, and try them out at home before you buy. Don't let the bass drive your decision since it's really the midrange where most of the sounds will come from. If you want more bass, then go with the subwoofer option and learn about how to properly set it up.

Woochifer
09-29-2004, 05:02 PM
Here is a rule of thumb - if you can hear male vocals out of your sub you have bad bass period end of discussion - and I have heard awefully expensive ones do that. hen people will talk about where they're crossed over - but IMO this should not even be an option.

Here's the reality: if you're hearing male vocals out of the sub, you either have it setup incorrectly or you bought something from Bose!

The crossover is one of the key points with integrating a subwoofer with the mains. If a subwoofer's reproducing male vocals, it's because that part of the frequency range is getting sent to the driver. Doesn't matter how good the subwoofer is, if it's in the signal and no crossover is used, the subwoofer will reproduce it. The typical frequency response of a decent subwoofer driver goes well above 500 Hz, and if you provide no crossover at the top end, it will playback everything to that point. If you don't want to hear male vocals, you set the crossover below that frequency.


The problem with most full range speakers is that when you find a good spot for the midrange and treble you might get boomy bass. I think the main reason Audio Note is able to succeed at getting tremendous bass from relatively small cabinets and one 8inch driver is that they take into account the rear and side walls as well as the floor bounce and will get very similar results from room to room - presuming your room has 2 corners in it. Most do. But again Sir Terrance notes that it's not cheap.

The factor that you're ignoring is that the corner reinforcement will vary depending on the distance to the listening position and the dimensions of the walls. Sure, those ANs can go low in-room with the right combination of corner reinforcement and relative distance, but the quality of the bass will vary widely by the room. It doesn't matter how good you think AN's design is, it's not immune from the laws of physics and formation of standing waves.


I had that option of going with a $1k sub and my Standmounts which were good to 36hz. Or Spend that $1k and get a bigger standmount which is good 25hz. There was no doubt that the latter option was and is the better option musically. Having bass come from a seeming front source point source is indiscribably better in my view. Even big floorstanders with similar bass depth sound as though the bass is thudding from the floorboards. Imaine 25hz coming from ~2.5feet off the ground - projecting up where the stage is. Non Directional subs my ass.

Going with a subwoofer allows you to optimize the positioning for the best quality bass within a given room. Subwoofers have a disadvantage in that the proper placement for tonal accuracy might also result in problems with the time domain coherency. Newer receivers and processors now integrate the delay timing into the bass management as well. Based on my experience with delay timing in the main and surround speaker channels, this can make a huge difference in making the overall sound more cohesive.

And when you're describing bass as nondirectional, how do you know that those sounds emanate from the 25 Hz range? Even a deep explosion from an action pic will typically include some sounds that go into the lower midrange. Based on your first comment, if you're not even using a crossover to cut off the directional frequencies above 80 Hz, then OF COURSE the subwoofer will sound directional! Plus, you need to account for room induced peaking and frequency cancellations in your setup and placement. If everything is done correctly, then the bass can be VERY well integrated with the mains and sound almost completely nondirectional. The newer bass management designs are now incorporating crossover frequencies of 40 and 60 Hz into their designs. Coupled with proper delay settings, placement, and equalization, the bass quality in that kind of setup can well exceed that from a full range speaker and cost a lot less.

Dusty Chalk
09-29-2004, 05:10 PM
While you're answering RGA's and KC's questions, how about telling us what you listen to, what you are going to be driving them with, any placement issues, etc. The more info, the better.I think he already mentioned one:
Can someone give me a suggestion for a full range 2 channel system?

I am thinking of a sub and bookshelf, or floor models? How about some ideas.

Room is 20x20 feet and concerning $$$, less is more! Thanks all.Dude, you're screwed. The first thing I'm going to tell you is install some serious bass dampening, especially at whatever node is reinforced at 20 feet. (Anyone?...anyone?...Williams? Smith?...Anyone? 28 Hz.)

RGA
09-29-2004, 07:19 PM
Just tried a search for this and I remember reading about it some where. What is a good male voice(500hz < ?) to do a test?

Audio Note seems very pricey, but as was stated "its not cheap". I believe that to a point but when(not in your case) does the cash flow stop on speakers? I mean above $10k for a pair of speakers. I am a carpenter and making a nice cabinet is not hard for even the novice. So basically it is all the components you are buying? I read in another post $1million for some speakers. KRIKEY! Its prob me though because I am tight with money. I love good sounds no matter.

You don't have to spend this much money and I hope my post was not sounding too ludditic(is that a word :D ). Money does not equal quality though you need some and Audio Note is not really expensive compared to most. Sure they make the ridiculous and IMO indefensibly priced $99,000 Speaker that is the exact same box as their $4,000.00 model. So there is no justification for the extra $95,000.00 no matter how much silver is being used. - if the whole damn box was filled with solid top of the line silver it still probably wouldn't come near 100K. But then there is no more than $5.00 worth of paint in a Picaso either. The market bares it because that particular market has heard the competition at that kind of price range and Audio Note does sell them. That 1 million dollar Karma speaker includes the room. Basiclaly they are building you a room onto your house which is specifically designed acoustically for those speakers (well so say they anyway)

My point was not really to attack subs - I am not partial to the sound of sub/satelite systems I have no problem with subs for home theater where your accuracy cue for a car bomb exploding really has no reference. I can't say for sure what a T-Rex stomping on car really sounds like - I can say that a cello should sound like one cohesive instrument because i know what a cello should sound like but a T-Rex or doctored multi channel effects I can't say. There is no reference point for such things. So, I don't bother with that I bother with the cello, piano, organ and even a synthezier which both certainly go to 20hz and below.

Everytime you add a step to the chain you create problems and those problems need corrections and those corrections cause other problems. A three way which is what a system using a Subwoofer becomes, is another step back which needs some sort of error correction device to fix the problems. Some people think that current receivers add on decvices and subwoofers work - I don't - no big deal go and listen to some such set-ups versus the AN J or E. You can believe the technological hype or you can go and listen to the J and E versus Say a $2,000 Energy Veritas, B&W, paradigm, PSB, standmount and ANY subwoofer you wish.

As PatD said most content doesn't really go much beyond 15Khz and most people can't differentiate bass below 40hz - this was why up until not that long ago the frequency range cosidered FULL range was 40hz-15khz. I have seen $199.00Cdn Sony speakers rated 20hz-20khz - means nothing. I have seen subs at pretty high prices that only hit 40hz - they simply play 40hz louder. I don't get the appeal of that. While watching a DVD demo a person put his cup on a table and the thud made me jump 2 feet. Sure it is "COOL" but that is atrocious sound because last time I checked when someone put a cup on a table my house didn't shake. But yes it was cool for a one off demo. Turn the sub volume down and well you realize you don;t need a subwoofer anymore. My Wharfedales went just as deep and play deafeningly loud so why on earth would i want to have the wharfedale's cut the lows for ONE subwoofer to now take over the duty of the woofers in my Wharfedale. I tried it to disasterous effects. I didn't need to worry about buying several devices to set-it up or replace my receiver with one that supposedly does it for you. I just needed two good speakers for 2 channel music. Unfortunately, Wharfedale went under in the early 1990s and have been bought and sold twice since then and are making more budget speakers.

I am fully aware I'm in the minority on this predominantly A/V forum when it comes to sub integration. But always note the small words like Almost integrates or very closely integrates and otherbsubtle weasal words people use. All that is well and good and for most people - fine but almost counts in horseshoes- almost integrating a piano or cello isn't enough. When a speaker like the J, which is only expensive because a smaller company is making them, can offer better bass than most all 1kCdn subs - all the ones I've heard even up to 2kCdn and do it from one 8 inch woofer. Why?

By the way if you're a handy sort of person you can build Audio Note speakers - Audio Note is pretty open about what they do - they hide nothing - they tell you the costs of all the materials and drivers and allow people to build a lot of their products. You can purchase a Kit E for quite cheap and basically glue the thing together yourself. and will probably save you 70% retail. Here is a review from a more two channel dedicated forum of a fellow I met at my dealer who had them built for him http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=speakers&n=170755&review=1

There is also a dedicated Audio Note kits forum at audioasylum.com -- you can;t beat it because you can listen to the Audio Note E speakers at a dealership to see if you like them or not and if you do you can save money by ordering the Kit and taylor the quality to fit your budget. Audio Note is trying to work out special deals with dealers to have the prices significanlty dropped. Being made in Europe is very costly. http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/audionotekits/bbs.html

Note I am not suggesting you buy - no matter how good a magazine review is or some fanboy like me touts them you need to LISTEN to as much gear as you possibly can humanly fit into your schedule.

The E was recently given the Best Buy speaker award in the August issue of Hi-Fi CHoice and this review is of the older E in a particle board box(The new version they like better for value even though the price went up considerably) - definitely you want Ply Wood. No speaker is perfect of course and the new E the reviewer, Paul Messenger, had a few issues with - but he did keep the speaker. In fact they kept the 1992 version as well.
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=475

This review of the E/D was up against speakers that ALL cost at least double the E's list at the time. The person owns the other designs which are quite formidable and very popular in their own rights. But it gives you an idea how well the E did considering the price. http://www.audionote.co.uk/reviews/st_spkr_e-d_17-07-2k1.htm

Some other experienced Audiophile/reviewers
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=345133&review=1
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=speakers&n=74993&review=1
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=speakers&n=104884&review=1
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=speakers&n=111315&review=1
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=speakers&n=124418&review=1

I told you I was a fanboy and unashamedly so. I recommend what I would BUY for myself or recommend to my friends. And that is very few products. When I come back from work overseas I will build or buy used and AN E.

And yes - it's what's inside that counts. Good luck with whatever you choose in the end.

kexodusc
09-30-2004, 05:06 AM
I tend to agree with alot of what you're saying here RGA...My main speakers were built with quality Vifa woofers, I usually don't use a sub in my 2-channel system because they are "full range" so to speak and though I have Paradigm sub in my room I do turn on from time to time because there are musical benefits to using a sub for purely musical purposes.
It does add greater complexity to setup, no question, but when you get there, it's great.

I think I've mentioned before I have some A/N fanboy relatives...My uncle routinely uses a nice home-brewed sub to fill out the bottom octave even with his AN E's...He cuts the sub off at 40 Hz, where even the E's get a little weak relative their performance at other frequencies...the sound is good, the response is flat, but in his words, the natural musical "impact" is lost when you use the speakers full range...That's the feeling you get in the seat of your pants. That's what a sub should be for IMO. Adding that power to the bottom octave. Every woofer starts to get strained the lower you go...



My point was not really to attack subs - I am not partial to the sound of sub/satelite systems I have no problem with subs for home theater where your accuracy cue for a car bomb exploding really has no reference. I can't say for sure what a T-Rex stomping on car really sounds like - I can say that a cello should sound like one cohesive instrument because i know what a cello should sound like but a T-Rex or doctored multi channel effects I can't say. There is no reference point for such things. So, I don't bother with that I bother with the cello, piano, organ and even a synthezier which both certainly go to 20hz and below.

For all the talk you do about "listening", recreating "life-like music" instead of just "Hi-Fi", I really expected more from you. Have you heard a cello? Do yo play Cello? I do...I doubt you'll find any cello anywhere that extends below 58 Hz...unless it's sadly out of tune...I think even grand piano's and Pipe Organs rarely drop below 30 Hz...and quite honestly there would be few passages that would employ notes that low very often. Probably low to mid 40's (Hz) would account for 99% of a piano or organs real world usuage. Kind of diminishes the importance of "full range" speakers.

Now I have to question, exactly what ARE you listening too???? Are you sure you know?

drseid
09-30-2004, 05:58 AM
Based on your $2000 upper limit (I am hoping this is for the speakers alone, otherwise ignore this post), I would go one of two directions...

For a floorstander recommendation, I would recommend auditioning the Legacy Audio Signature III. Brand new, these speakers are way out of your price range, but on Audiogon, a used pair will most likely sell for just about $2000. These can do 20HZ with good authority, and they are perfect for medium to semi-large rooms. Very good quality drivers are used from Eton, among others. The Sigs have excellent dynamics, and they have a very pleasant midrange. The speakers are pretty darn good looking too in my opinion (your tastes may vary, of course).

Another way to go if the sub/sat route is more your cup of tea, is to pair some high quality monitors like the Tyler Acoustics Taylo Monitors, with a quality sub. The Taylos offer tremendous bang for the buck, utilizing a SEAS Excel series mid-bass driver (W18E) and the Scanspeak Revelator Tweeter (9900) in each enclosure. These go for $1000-$1200 a pair used on Audiogon including the high quality matching Tyler Model 1 stands.

You could then pair them to a top quality musical subwoofer like the ACI Titan (formerly called the Titan II). Brand new, the Titan goes for about $1200 direct from ACI, and it is hard to find one used, but if you can find one, the Titan/Titan II is very good quality and it holds it's value well.

A used pair of Taylos, coupled with a used Titan II/Titan II LE will again set you back pretty much your entire budget, but the combo is a *very* good one that should cover you nicely for the entire frequency range (good bass, as it has already been said does not come cheap). Also, I should mention that the Titan II integrates very well with the Taylos (I, and others have done it with excellent success). Just for reference, Tyler Acoustics is not well known (and only mail order), so there is some risk here (no auditioning of the speakers unless you can find an owner nearby), but as an owner of both the Taylos and Linbrooks (their larger brothers), I, at least, can say that I am glad I took the risk.

The sub/sat option may be the better way to go if you ever want to look at multi-channel music, or HT. If you are looking for 2 channel only (with no future plans for multi-channel), then the used Signature IIIs may be just what you are looking for.

Either way, these options may be worth a look...

Good luck,

---Dave

46minaudio
09-30-2004, 07:30 AM
I am fully aware I'm in the minority on this predominantly A/V forum when it comes to sub integration. But always note the small words like Almost integrates or very closely integrates and otherbsubtle weasal words people use. All that is well and good and for most people - fine but almost counts in horseshoes- almost integrating a piano or cello isn't enough. When a speaker like the J, which is only expensive because a smaller company is making them, can offer better bass than most all 1kCdn subs - all the ones I've heard even up to 2kCdn and do it from one 8 inch woofer. Why?

RGA have you measured your ANs in your room.If so do they integrate perfect, or are they close"as in horseshoes".


Here is a review from a more two channel dedicated forum of a fellow I met at my dealer who had them built for him http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=speakers&n=170755&review=1



I can't stress this enough - DO NOT GO BY REVIEWS





The E was recently given the Best Buy speaker award in the August issue of Hi-Fi CHoice and this review is of the older E in a particle board box(The new version they like better for value even though the price went up considerably)



I can't stress this enough - DO NOT GO BY REVIEWS




This review of the E/D was up against speakers that ALL cost at least double the E's list at the time. The person owns the other designs which are quite formidable and very popular in their own rights. But it gives you an idea how well the E did considering the price. http://www.audionote.co.uk/reviews/st_spkr_e-d_17-07-2k1.htm



I can't stress this enough - DO NOT GO BY REVIEWS

Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,

KRiTiKaL
09-30-2004, 01:15 PM
This is great, other than the personal remarks. I am getting some good tips and advice. I am only basing my question on 20hz to 20khz to point out the basic audible range. I am sure that missing 15 to 20hz or 5khz from the audible spectrum is not all that much. I am basically trying to get a close to perfect reproduction of whatever I am playing. I realize that the recording has pretty much the influence on your speakers. As for that, this is for well produced and recorded music and eventually movies. Thank you guys much so far.

I am going to look at the Magneplanars(sp?) and see what the deal with eletrostatic sound is about. I remember being in a high-end store in Eugene, OR when I seen something similar about 13 years ago.

bargainseeker
09-30-2004, 02:43 PM
I am going to look at the Magneplanars(sp?) and see what the deal with eletrostatic sound is about.While very nice sounding, Magneplanars are notoriously inefficient and low in impedance. You need a very high power amplifier capable of driving low impedance loads for these speakers. 45 watts per channel will not be nearly enough.

This Guy
09-30-2004, 06:03 PM
45 watts in 8 ohms, probably around 90 watts at 4 ohms with the Maggies. He wants to get to 90 dB. Panels like the Maggies only lose 3 dB per doubling of distance because they are large arrays, opposite of a point source which decays at 6 db per doubling of distance (most conventional speakers). Lets see here the maggies are around 85 db sensitive right?

1 watt-85db
2-88
4-91
8-94
16-97
32-100
64-103

If he sits 12 feet away, approximately 3 meters, the spl at his seat would be roughly 97 decibels if I didn't screw any of it up. He'll get louder than he wants at 12 feet and only 64 watts. He'll even get louder than he wants at 32 watts. Your amp sounds fine assuming it can handle the 4 ohms.

92135011
09-30-2004, 06:27 PM
Sorry to say man..but 90dB is damages your hearing...
I'm not sure if you really wanna stick with something like that, because later on you might require 100dB to actually hear anything.

Geoffcin
09-30-2004, 06:59 PM
45 watts in 8 ohms, probably around 90 watts at 4 ohms with the Maggies. He wants to get to 90 dB. Panels like the Maggies only lose 3 dB per doubling of distance because they are large arrays, opposite of a point source which decays at 6 db per doubling of distance (most conventional speakers). Lets see here the maggies are around 85 db sensitive right?

1 watt-85db
2-88
4-91
8-94
16-97
32-100
64-103

If he sits 12 feet away, approximately 3 meters, the spl at his seat would be roughly 97 decibels if I didn't screw any of it up. He'll get louder than he wants at 12 feet and only 64 watts. He'll even get louder than he wants at 32 watts. Your amp sounds fine assuming it can handle the 4 ohms.

Your measurements assume a sine wave tone. The problem is that all music is transient in nature. Even listening at a low level, say 85db, you could easily have a peak of 98db on a drum strike, or cymbal crash. The transient won't damage your hearing, but you amp might have a fit if it can't produce the current necessary. Maggies don't really come alive until they are up in the 80's, one of the few faults that I have with them. A good 45 watt amp is barely enough to support this unless it has great dynamic reserve. 100 watts is a good starting point for Maggies.

RGA
10-01-2004, 12:03 AM
Kex

Have no problem if someone wants to use a sub as a form of tone control where you jack up the response of a bass frequency. If that's what one wishes to do it is not much different than wanting to jack up the response at 4khz or 20khz.

My comments on instruments are about low to high integration.

The E's were demoed with pedal organ classical work off LP at the last CES with two samples from 32hz to 16hz at high level and apparently thundered. Synthesizer are full range - synthesizer is all over the place from Sarah McLachlan to this weeks trance group - they can go well beyond the 20hz-20khz range. Granted those were upper level E's and apparently they have more oomph than the lower E's - different magnets.

Subwoofers are not recommended for Audio Note K,J or E speakers. Peter has bought the best subs currently available on the market trying to re-work whichever is best for his E. All were fruitlesss. He has been working on an 845Tube powereed subwoofer which will obviously have to dovetail down to 12hz and play significantly loud. The 845 tube is considered a low powered tube so if he ever gets the time it would be interesting.

I'm not saying there are speakers that don't have more bass volume or bass depth - not at all. But you answered your own quesiton. If so little music plays under 40hz(don't forget overtones) then why would anyone NEED a subwoofer for music listening with say a Studio 40 - I kow I sure as hell would want a sub for almost all standmounts I've come accross that claim 40hz.

I would probably want a Sub for Home theater no matter what - probably due to the mix.

Woochifer
10-01-2004, 08:23 AM
My point was not really to attack subs - I am not partial to the sound of sub/satelite systems I have no problem with subs for home theater where your accuracy cue for a car bomb exploding really has no reference. I can't say for sure what a T-Rex stomping on car really sounds like - I can say that a cello should sound like one cohesive instrument because i know what a cello should sound like but a T-Rex or doctored multi channel effects I can't say. There is no reference point for such things. So, I don't bother with that I bother with the cello, piano, organ and even a synthezier which both certainly go to 20hz and below.

Of course, you're attacking subs if you claim that they're only good for explosions and inadequate for music.


Everytime you add a step to the chain you create problems and those problems need corrections and those corrections cause other problems. A three way which is what a system using a Subwoofer becomes, is another step back which needs some sort of error correction device to fix the problems. Some people think that current receivers add on decvices and subwoofers work - I don't - no big deal go and listen to some such set-ups versus the AN J or E. You can believe the technological hype or you can go and listen to the J and E versus Say a $2,000 Energy Veritas, B&W, paradigm, PSB, standmount and ANY subwoofer you wish.

Those "errors" that you refer to are not caused by the subwoofer, they're caused by the ROOM. As you go below 200 Hz, the influence of the room effects increase as the wavelengths get longer. This affects all speakers as they go into the lower frequencies, and not just subwoofers. This is a point that you consistently ignore/fail to understand. What you refer to as ERROR correction is nothing more than correcting for normal room effects.

If you have actually try these speakers that you mention at home, have you actually taken the time to properly set it up and INTEGRATE IT in with your mains by using the proper crossover, phase, and (if available) equalization settings? An in-store demo is inadequate to judge the quality of a subwoofer because they are rarely setup with the optimal settings since those settings potentially change with different main speakers.


I am fully aware I'm in the minority on this predominantly A/V forum when it comes to sub integration. But always note the small words like Almost integrates or very closely integrates and otherbsubtle weasal words people use. All that is well and good and for most people - fine but almost counts in horseshoes- almost integrating a piano or cello isn't enough. When a speaker like the J, which is only expensive because a smaller company is making them, can offer better bass than most all 1kCdn subs - all the ones I've heard even up to 2kCdn and do it from one 8 inch woofer. Why?

Unless something PERFECTLY integrates together, then what you refer to as "othersubtle weasel words" are an accurate description. There's no such thing as a perfect speaker, so if you're using this "othersubtle weasel words" description as yet another backhanded putdown of all things non-AN, then you're taking your fanboy biases to pretty ridiculous heights since the AN would have to absolutely perfect. If it's not perfect, then you have to use one of your weasel words to describe those speakers.


Have no problem if someone wants to use a sub as a form of tone control where you jack up the response of a bass frequency. If that's what one wishes to do it is not much different than wanting to jack up the response at 4khz or 20khz.

If you read Kex's comments, he's not talking about subs as a form of tone control or jacking up the response. It's simply about reinforcing the lower octave where the speaker trails off.


Subwoofers are not recommended for Audio Note K,J or E speakers. Peter has bought the best subs currently available on the market trying to re-work whichever is best for his E. All were fruitlesss. He has been working on an 845Tube powereed subwoofer which will obviously have to dovetail down to 12hz and play significantly loud. The 845 tube is considered a low powered tube so if he ever gets the time it would be interesting.

ALL the "best subs currently available"? He must have made a LOT of money then if he can afford to do this, because there are a lot of them on the market. Rather than "reworking" them, why not set them up properly and try them out without modification?


I'm not saying there are speakers that don't have more bass volume or bass depth - not at all. But you answered your own quesiton. If so little music plays under 40hz(don't forget overtones) then why would anyone NEED a subwoofer for music listening with say a Studio 40 - I kow I sure as hell would want a sub for almost all standmounts I've come accross that claim 40hz.

Nobody NEEDS a subwoofer, but I went with a sub with my system because I wanted the best possible bass quality out of my system. Installing a subwoofer opened a world of possibilities. First, the placement flexibility allowed me to work around the acoustical issues in my room. The ideal placement for my Studio 40s for imaging quality and midrange coherency was along the middle of the front wall. This placement also creates one wave cancellation and two large peaks in the lower frequencies, which creates a nonlinear bass response even though my Studio 40s have measureable output down to 35 Hz. I know it's mostly room inuduced because the frequency response in the bass changes when I move the speakers. The subwoofer allows for far more linear bass response because the subwoofer can be placed in a more advantageous location, AND it allows for the use of ROOM correction devices like a parametric equalizer. If you've never heard a properly equalized subwoofer, then you're in no position whatsoever to denounce the merits of subwoofers the way that you have. The other point that you're ignoring is that taking the lowest bass notes out of the signal, the speaker as notably greater coherency in the MIDRANGE. Plenty of tube advocates and two-channel devotees have advocated subwoofers for years because having to power and drive the lower octaves has a detrimental effect on the other parts of the music. Dan Wiggins of Adire Audio highly recommends subwoofers with tube systems because in his opinion the peak demands from the low frequencies particularly detract from the midrange quality when using tubes.

kexodusc
10-01-2004, 09:10 AM
Kex
Have no problem if someone wants to use a sub as a form of tone control where you jack up the response of a bass frequency. If that's what one wishes to do it is not much different than wanting to jack up the response at 4khz or 20khz. .

Tone Control??? Who said anything about Tone control???...No, what I'm saying is that despite stats and measurements, even the great AN E's aren't omnipotent...they have limitations, a good subwoofer compliments them, it doesn't boost frequencies. I honestly believe the AN E's strongest attribute is it's ability to reproduce life-like midrange frequencies...it does this very, very well...better than it reproduces bass, which it also does well. There's a point where a sub could take over, say, around 35-40 Hz and provide the same level of performance in the bottom octave as the higher octaves.

Yes the AN E's have good, usuable bass. Better than my Studio 40's no doubt....I think even better than my floorstanders. They sound really good. With a properly set sub, they AN E's can sound even better...



My comments on instruments are about low to high integration.

Good, glad you brought this up. It's a proven fact that there are limitations when you put a tweeter and woofer in the same box, and then place them in any particular speaker area of a given room. The room has an effect. Audio Note can make strict guidelines and recommendations about corner placement for the best performance of it's speakers, but that does not mean a sub couldn't make them even better. Just like care is given in the speaker's crossvoer when integrating the midrange to the highs, care should be given when integrating a sub...I see too many people just stick it beside their main speaker, or beside their tv, turn it up, and go...not good.

As Wooch described, you'll find a woofer/mid-woofer will handle the ever important mid-range frequencies even better when relieved of the burden of the really low frequencies.



Subwoofers are not recommended for Audio Note K,J or E speakers. Peter has bought the best subs currently available on the market trying to re-work whichever is best for his E. All were fruitlesss.

Here's a challenge RGA...Are you telling me that if we could somehow take Peter's setup, and test out every subwoofer that could possibly compliment the AN E's, with proper setup, eq, etc, that it is simply not possible that any of these subs could improve the sound? Not even one?
If Peter has already reproduced Audio-Perfection, why does he still tinker? Why did he keep creating yet even more expensive versions of the E?



I'm not saying there are speakers that don't have more bass volume or bass depth - not at all. But you answered your own quesiton. If so little music plays under 40hz(don't forget overtones) then why would anyone NEED a subwoofer for music listening with say a Studio 40 - I kow I sure as hell would want a sub for almost all standmounts I've come accross that claim 40hz.
Good, and I'm not saying that the AN's doen't sound really, really good without a sub...
And I must apologize...I sort of baited you into bringing up overtones and harmonics...perhaps now you can begin to see the limitions of the AN E?

I bet if Peter came out with a sub tomorrow which he claimed complimented the AN's, you'd believe him...unfortunately you'll often find that designers of great speakers cannot design equally great subs and vice-versa...perhaps Peter should look for some help on the subject.

RGA
10-01-2004, 05:52 PM
Kex - I have owned a sub which was in the $700 range and didn;t do better than 40hz.

The E is rated to 16hz-18 -6db which is stil a formidable amount of bass(with usable bass to 12hz(which I take to mean @ -10db). They are measured at 22hz -3db by Hi-fi Choice. The older E's of about 5-10 years ago were not as good at -6 dB @ 24 Hz and probably 30hz -3db. So yes Peter continually tries to stretch the envelope. The original Snell Type E was rated at 39hz and the original Snell J was 50hz. The current J gets 25hz - these are signifcant improvements by any standard when the same cabinet shape is used.

I am not going to buy a sub for my home to set-up in order to "find-out" if the sub will improve my situation. Peter Qvortrup has been working with Rel I beleive it is out of Whales just as they have worked with Rega, Bosendorfer, Goldring etc.

It is up to Paradigm and B&W etc to prove to me that they can integrate their subs BEFORE I plunk my heard earned money down. If they want to sell me they need to work in concert with their dealers to develop a professionally set-up all Paradigm or B&W room which they themselves BUILD for the dealer - Audio Note demands that their system be presented as a complete system with instructions on how to set-it up. You WILL do it the way Audio Note wants(at all reasonable effort) or you WILL NOT carry their equipment. If Audio Note has the pull to get this done you can bet Paradigm and B&W with their size and muscle sure can. Audio Video Unlimited several years ago had a dealer who told me that Paradigm constructed their room. So if that was not set-up correctly then it's their tough luck. They certainly are not going to get me to buy what I heard from tehir set-up room and are not convincing me that i should buy it anyway. Their job is to pre-convince me that it works not to have some guy named Woochifer get me to buy a sub and tell me that NOTHING could make ANY part of the sound worse by doing this.

Yes I agree I could get MORE deep bass with a sub and so could an E owner and so too may some be happy with the results - but the current E gets 22hz -3db and as you say Kex - if most music doesn't dip below 40hz then I don't see how the E is too quiet at 40hz when it isn't too quiet at 22hz.

But hey personal taste everyone you want a sub sat get one you think it's better then get one - it's about YOUR enjoyment of the music - just don't tell me how I should enjoy it. I tend to agree with Skeptic, UHF, Peter Qvortrup, and a lot of folks whoese experiences I trust and my own experiences on Subwoofers. You all can do whatever you wish. Enjoy.

Woochifer
10-01-2004, 07:31 PM
Kex - I have owned a sub which was in the $700 range and didn;t do better than 40hz.

Was this a spec that you actually measured for yourself, or are you just presuming? Judging by your comments so far, I doubt that the sub was properly setup or placed, which of course can influence the in-room response. My $400 subwoofer measures flat within 2 db from the crossover point down to 25 Hz because I read up on the proper setup procedures and made the necessary room corrections. You can talk about bass extension all you want, but in the low frequencies, linearity and balance are what you should be aiming for. The acoustics in a small to medium sized room will usually ensure that this does not happen unless you apply some kind of room correction.


I am not going to buy a sub for my home to set-up in order to "find-out" if the sub will improve my situation. Peter Qvortrup has been working with Rel I beleive it is out of Whales just as they have worked with Rega, Bosendorfer, Goldring etc.

Nobody's asking you to, but you're making a whole load of sweeping generalizations based on what you've heard in sighted demo room listenings. If you don't want to "find out" then don't go around telling everyone that you have the answer when you never bothered to ask the question. If I were to base my opinion of subwoofers based strictly on what I've heard in random demo rooms, I might think that you're right. But, I have heard properly setup demos, and I have my own equalized setup to know first hand what the advantages of a subwoofer are if the setup is optimized, and what pitfalls to look out for in the setup process.


It is up to Paradigm and B&W etc to prove to me that they can integrate their subs BEFORE I plunk my heard earned money down. If they want to sell me they need to work in concert with their dealers to develop a professionally set-up all Paradigm or B&W room which they themselves BUILD for the dealer - Audio Note demands that their system be presented as a complete system with instructions on how to set-it up. You WILL do it the way Audio Note wants(at all reasonable effort) or you WILL NOT carry their equipment. If Audio Note has the pull to get this done you can bet Paradigm and B&W with their size and muscle sure can. Audio Video Unlimited several years ago had a dealer who told me that Paradigm constructed their room. So if that was not set-up correctly then it's their tough luck. They certainly are not going to get me to buy what I heard from tehir set-up room and are not convincing me that i should buy it anyway. Their job is to pre-convince me that it works not to have some guy named Woochifer get me to buy a sub and tell me that NOTHING could make ANY part of the sound worse by doing this.

How many times do you have to get reminded that demo rooms are rarely an ideal acoustical setting to audition a subwoofer? Just about everybody on this board who actually knows something about subwoofers will tell you that demo room listenings are basically useless for evaluating subwoofers because 1) they are hardly ever placed correctly; 2) the acoustical environment will usually not approximate what you have at home; 3) if the room allows for equipment to get swapped out, then the settings are usually not optimized for the mains that they get paired with; 4) customers have a way of tinkering with things; and 5) if the demo room is small, then every subwoofer will probably sound lousy without some kind of acoustical treatment or equialization.

Just because you claim that B&W and Paradigm constructed the demo room does not mean that customers don't tinker with the settings, the speakers don't get moved around, the crossover settings don't get changed when the dealer switches out the equipment, or that the setup that you see on the floor is always optimal. The dealer setups that I've heard where the subwoofer seamlessly integrates with the mains are the ones that either have a permanent installation in place with all of the settings done correctly or the dealer knows the proper placement and settings for the various sub/speaker combinations that they demonstrate.

If you want to put the blinders on and base your opinions on this subject entirely on whatever your dealer has setup in his room or whatever "Peter" tells you is true, then that's your call. But, when you start arguing about the inferiority and weasel word descriptions of subwoofer integration, you're basing this on half-truths and inadequate information. If you want to sit back and say that the burden is on Paradigm or B&W to show you the right way to do a subwoofer setup, that's a copout. If you want to take that kind of disinterested approach, then you have zero basis for trying to argue this subject with people who HAVE hands on experience with and read up on setting up a subwoofer properly.

It would be the equivalent of me plugging in my subwoofer, noting that it sounded boomy out of the box, and then concluding that subwoofers suck. Never mind how much the sound quality improved after setting the levels with a SPL meter, using a test disc to verify the proper phase setting, doing in-room measurements to identify room-induced acoustical problems, and then using a parametric equalizer to correct the room-induced problems


Yes I agree I could get MORE deep bass with a sub and so could an E owner and so too may some be happy with the results - but the current E gets 22hz -3db and as you say Kex - if most music doesn't dip below 40hz then I don't see how the E is too quiet at 40hz when it isn't too quiet at 22hz.

You're the one that keeps telling people not to trust specs, so what makes the ones for the ANs so trustworthy in your view? If these frequency response specs that you quote are in-room and based on corner placement, they have very limited applicability because they're room dependent and more so than in-room measurements that are taken in free space.


But hey personal taste everyone you want a sub sat get one you think it's better then get one - it's about YOUR enjoyment of the music - just don't tell me how I should enjoy it. I tend to agree with Skeptic, UHF, Peter Qvortrup, and a lot of folks whoese experiences I trust and my own experiences on Subwoofers. You all can do whatever you wish. Enjoy.

Nobody's telling you how you should enjoy your listening. Just don't start spouting off to everybody else about how their subwoofer setups are therefore inferior when you've never even done your homework on how to properly setup a subwoofer/speaker combination. It doesn't matter that you once owned a subwoofer if you don't understand how to correctly set the crossover frequency, the phase, the equalization, and the levels. Even worse if you actually set it up only by ear. Did you even use a SPL meter?

kexodusc
10-02-2004, 03:54 AM
Kex - I have owned a sub which was in the $700 range and didn;t do better than 40hz.

So?



The E is rated to 16hz-18 -6db which is stil a formidable amount of bass(with usable bass to 12hz(which I take to mean @ -10db). They are measured at 22hz -3db by Hi-fi Choice. The older E's of about 5-10 years ago were not as good at -6 dB @ 24 Hz and probably 30hz -3db. So yes Peter continually tries to stretch the envelope. The original Snell Type E was rated at 39hz and the original Snell J was 50hz. The current J gets 25hz - these are signifcant improvements by any standard when the same cabinet shape is used.
Impressive stats,no question...in what room where they taken? What dimensions? From the listening position? How much variance in the curve below 40 Hz from 1 frequency to the next?



Audio Note demands that their system be presented as a complete system with instructions on how to set-it up. You WILL do it the way Audio Note wants(at all reasonable effort) or you WILL NOT carry their equipment. If Audio Note has the pull to get this done you can bet Paradigm and B&W with their size and muscle sure can.

I understand what you're saying here. I agree with it somewhat. But to be fair to B&W and Paradigm, they aren't in the same business or market segment as AN really. There's no way they could sell Atoms, Mini-Monitors, or even Studio 20's as cheap as they do if they started applying added costs of arranging rooms for all dealers etc. And they wouldn't be carried by nearly as many dealers if they did, so it's not in their best interests, or their consumers. Instead they rely on their dealers...a hit and miss strategy. But it works for them.



Their job is to pre-convince me that it works not to have some guy named Woochifer get me to buy a sub and tell me that NOTHING could make ANY part of the sound worse by doing this.
I've learned along time ago not to take the marketing pitches of anyone, Paradigm, Peter Q, etc, as gospel truth. I leave it to myself to explore possibilities within my means and make my own conclusions. Just because Peter Q doesn't have a subwoofer to sell you doesn't mean someone else's couldn't enhance your system.



Yes I agree I could get MORE deep bass with a sub and so could an E owner and so too may some be happy with the results - but the current E gets 22hz -3db and as you say Kex - if most music doesn't dip below 40hz then I don't see how the E is too quiet at 40hz when it isn't too quiet at 22hz.
Two points here:
1) It's not the extension,it's the quality of the reproduction. Between the ranges 500 Hz and 5000 Hz, the Paradigm Atom is +/- 2....so is the AN E...are telling me their midranges are equal? There's more to sound than response and extension.

2) I think you've misread my earlier point...here it is again:

Probably low to mid 40's (Hz) would account for 99% of a piano or organs real world usuage.
I made no claims about "most music". I offered a response to your argument which employed inaccurate claims of the response of certain instruments...that made your points less credible.
You're probably right, alot of music probably doesn't occur below 40Hz, but that doesn't mean it's not desireable to reproduce well that which does.



But hey personal taste everyone you want a sub sat get one you think it's better then get one - it's about YOUR enjoyment of the music - just don't tell me how I should enjoy it. I tend to agree with Skeptic, UHF, Peter Qvortrup, and a lot of folks whoese experiences I trust and my own experiences on Subwoofers. You all can do whatever you wish. Enjoy.
Last time I checked, ol' Skep and Peter Q didn't agree about anything...where is Skeptic these days?
You speak of sub/sat combo's as if their always a bad thing. I occasionally use a sub with my full-range floorstanders, sometimes it's better, sometimes it's not. I think even you can appreciate the inherent flaws of reproducing music from 2 fixed points...after all, most musical acts are nothing more than a group of multiple localized satellites (ie: producing sound from more than 2 fixed points).

Geoffcin
10-02-2004, 09:43 AM
So?

Impressive stats,no question...in what room where they taken? What dimensions? From the listening position? How much variance in the curve below 40 Hz from 1 frequency to the next?



With a 8" woofer, no matter what type enclosure is used. Even a 15" woofer with a free air resonance of 9hz is hard pressed to produce a flat responce to 20hz without equalization. I give you the B&W 801's for an example. A speaker capable of prodigious bass, but not flat to 20hz. It's not B&W's fault, it just a matter of physics.

kexodusc
10-02-2004, 04:43 PM
With a 8" woofer, no matter what type enclosure is used. Even a 15" woofer with a free air resonance of 9hz is hard pressed to produce a flat responce to 20hz without equalization. I give you the B&W 801's for an example. A speaker capable of prodigious bass, but not flat to 20hz. It's not B&W's fault, it just a matter of physics.
I kind of suspected as much, but I don't spend much time comparing published stats to independantly measured stats, and really, I've probably only even heard of a small fraction of all the speakers out there.
As the wavelength increases, it interacts more with the room's environment. This is why I don't put much faith in AN's (or anybody's) measurements...to me, an anechoic chamber is at least a common point for reference purposes, but in the end it doesn't really tell you how a speaker will behave in any given room.

I've tend to notice that any speaker that makes claims about 20 to 20,000 Hz is almost always way out of my price range, or sold from a white van in the parking lot at Best Buy.

Geoffcin
10-02-2004, 05:20 PM
I kind of suspected as much, but I don't spend much time comparing published stats to independantly measured stats, and really, I've probably only even heard of a small fraction of all the speakers out there.
As the wavelength increases, it interacts more with the room's environment. This is why I don't put much faith in AN's (or anybody's) measurements...to me, an anechoic chamber is at least a common point for reference purposes, but in the end it doesn't really tell you how a speaker will behave in any given room.

I've tend to notice that any speaker that makes claims about 20 to 20,000 Hz is almost always way out of my price range, or sold from a white van in the parking lot at Best Buy.

AN is now being sold out of white vans? An interesting marketing move on their part.

kexodusc
10-02-2004, 05:45 PM
AN is now being sold out of white vans? An interesting marketing move on their part.
Audio Note requires that each white van be calibrated, and set up specifically to their standards or they WILL NOT allow the white van to carry their speakers. :D

RGA
10-03-2004, 01:46 PM
Wooch you say you have heard proper demos of sub integration that sounded good - you presume many times where I have been dissatified that it MUST be the room or the set-up. Presume as you will - end of discussion on the subject.

Peter did not say one could not integrate subs well. I'd like to see the quote. I know he doesn't like subs with his speakers - the mere fact he is working on them should tell you that he is not against subs. Nor am I. I just said I have not been impressed with the dedicated rooms with staionary set-up with NO removable speakers and to which customers cannt get access to the subs to ALTER them and of which were supposedly set-up by the experts of those designing them in sound proofed "ideal" rooms. I'm sorry if I don't like the sound for acoustic music and if that upsets you. If owned a Paradigm or B&W, Totem or PSB standmount then yes I would buy a Sub/eq/spl meter and test disc. Of course I would.

As for the AN they are strikingly good from room to room like no other speaker i've come across - so long as you follow the recommended room size guidelines. The measurements I posted were independant from Martim Colloms and Paul Messenger - some of those measurements are superior to those rather conservative numbers provided by Audio Note. The issue really has nothing to do with Audio Note. I am not a fan of the type of bass I've heard from subwoofers - the notion that one sub is built for music and one is built for home theater set-ups well do what you want with that.

Lord_Magnepan
10-03-2004, 02:28 PM
Well i didnt understand most of the Tech talk. But here are some thought from me (for those who care :confused: )

Music doesnt come from a "point source". If you sit in a concert its is extremely hard to close your eyes and pin point an instrument. A instrument radiates its waves in all directions, and bounces of walls, players and other objects.

Most "natural" non-electronic music doesnt go very low at all.

There is absolutly no way a enclosed box type speaker is able to reproduce the sonic size, power and wave pattern of a live instrument.

If i were to pick a string from a guitar, the sound wave would radiate in all directions, bounce of me, bounce of walls, weaken its signal strength etc...So why do people follow the persuit to make a box speaker play perfectly flat from 40000Hz to 20Hz ?!? when you will never get the real deal from it, because of the pysical limitations of the box.

The enclosure slows down the waves, the tweeter and drivers are to small to display a grand piano in its original size. The drivers are to heavy to stop and slow the motions.

This is not a rant on box speakers. I have heard Kharma, Audio Physics, Avalon etc.. and decided on the Maggies. First i had .5 than 1.6 and now the 3.6

Cheers

Woochifer
10-04-2004, 12:14 AM
Wooch you say you have heard proper demos of sub integration that sounded good - you presume many times where I have been dissatified that it MUST be the room or the set-up. Presume as you will - end of discussion on the subject.

It is a presumption, but you've given absolutely no indication in this thread that you understand how the subwoofer integration and bass quality depend a great deal on the room acoustics, the correct placement, and the correct settings. You fail to acknowledge those variables and go with false statements like a subwoofer being bad if you can hear male vocals, it being desirable not to have a crossover option, or the AN's bass does not vary from room to room because they supposedly account for the corner placement and floor bounce. Unless you're talking about rooms with dimensions of more than about 40 feet, it's virtually impossible for a speaker or subwoofer to have consistent tonal characteristics in the low frequencies from room to room, without some kind of equalization.


I just said I have not been impressed with the dedicated rooms with staionary set-up with NO removable speakers and to which customers cannt get access to the subs to ALTER them and of which were supposedly set-up by the experts of those designing them in sound proofed "ideal" rooms. I'm sorry if I don't like the sound for acoustic music and if that upsets you. If owned a Paradigm or B&W, Totem or PSB standmount then yes I would buy a Sub/eq/spl meter and test disc. Of course I would.

So the merits of subwoofers are only to be judged by these dedicated rooms that you're talking about? Unless you know who these "experts" were, and if the setup was even done right in the first place, you're presuming an awful lot. I don't know of too many demo rooms I've visited that were "setup" by factory reps, and not all of the dedicated theater rooms I've heard are setup correctly. If you're evaluating the merits of all subwoofers strictly by your demo room listenings without having done a proper setup and calibration of a subwoofer yourself and knowing how different room and setup variables can radically alter what you hear, then you're in no position to judge a whole class of products based on such incomplete information.


As for the AN they are strikingly good from room to room like no other speaker i've come across - so long as you follow the recommended room size guidelines. The measurements I posted were independant from Martim Colloms and Paul Messenger - some of those measurements are superior to those rather conservative numbers provided by Audio Note. The issue really has nothing to do with Audio Note. I am not a fan of the type of bass I've heard from subwoofers - the notion that one sub is built for music and one is built for home theater set-ups well do what you want with that.

So, AN put out recommended room size guidelines -- what if your room does not follow their guidelines? And as Kex asked, what does it say about the linearity of the bass response?

I don't know what notion of one sub built for music and another built for home theater you're talking about. I use my sub for two-channel music, multichannel music, 2.0 surround, and 5.1 surround movies, with an identical equalization curve for all of them. And once I got the subwoofer properly equalized and integrated with the mains, there's no reason whatsoever that I can't achieve excellent results for both music and movie sources. There are tradeoffs if you're comparing different subwoofer designs like ported versus sealed boxes, but that does not have anything to do with subs being built for movies separately from ones designed for music.

aimen
10-04-2004, 12:47 AM
full range in single package, hmmmm time for def tech super towers
this one looks in ur price

BP7002 Specifications:
Dimensions: 7-1/4" W x 16" D x 46-1/4" H
Freq. Response: 15 Hz 30 kHz
Nominal Impedance: Compatible with 8 ohms
Rec. Assoc. Amp.: 20 400 watts/channel
Driver Complement: Four 5-1/4" high definition cast-magnesium basket polymer upper bass/midrange drivers. Two 1" pure aluminum dome tweeters with silk surrounds. One 12" long-throw subwoofer coupled to two 12" infrasonic radiators.
Efficiency: 92 dB
Finish: piano-gloss black or golden cherry
Retail: $1099 ea.

but they r made more for movies then music, dont know if u can turn there rear speakers off for pure 2ch stereo?!?!?!?

any ways dont hav much to say to ur original question
just it seemed awesome speaker on paper in ur price range

happy audditoning

since u hav 2000$$$ u can look into B&W nutilus series i guess for some very musical sounding speakers

chimera128
10-04-2004, 01:52 AM
Made more for movies than music? I think that is more a personal choice but since some people (who admit they like direct radiators better and therefore should be considered biased) say they aren't as good for music as movies people who have never heard them before just take it as fact. I personally liked the more open soundstage of my BP7000SCs than B&W and other speakers in it's price range when listening to classical cds and rock. I try not to make comments about speakers that I haven't PERSONALLY listened to based on other people's comments. People who I have invited over to listen to music they like and who have gone to concerts said it is almost like being there again. Their preferences have ranged from latin, rock, new age, classical, rap (i don't know how i got through that one ;)) etc. The fact that they are equally good at movies is just a plus.

aimen
10-04-2004, 03:26 AM
its good to hear tht they r tht good

my comment abt good for movie is purely based on ppl who say pure 2ch sterreo is best thru direct speakers as it is recorded tht way.

otherwise i havnt listened them my self but heared a lot abt them
and yes i too like the big sound stage like one from bose 901 :-))))

kexodusc
10-04-2004, 04:10 AM
Peter did not say one could not integrate subs well. I'd like to see the quote. I know he doesn't like subs with his speakers - the mere fact he is working on them should tell you that he is not against subs. .

I think the truth here is that Peter just doesn't like endorsing subs made by someone else in which he doesn't profit from. I'm sure somday Peter will design a decent sub with two 10" fostex woofers, a petrified wood cabinet finished in birch veneer, and a low powered SET amp or something similar, and the AN fanboys will be happy to adopt it.



I'm sorry if I don't like the sound for acoustic music and if that upsets you. If owned a Paradigm or B&W, Totem or PSB standmount then yes I would buy a Sub/eq/spl meter and test disc. Of course I would.
Not sure I understand why you open the door to the possibility a sub could improve these speaker systems, but NOT AN's???? By the way, I always argue that acoustic music, with basses and tubas etc, benefit even more from a sub than amplified music.

I honestly feel you'd do yourself a favor investing in a 12" sub kit from Parts Express or something similar. I built one for my parents a few months ago and it easily competes with the Paradigm's PW-2200, and my old SVS sub, despite being built for almost 1/2 the price, AND came with a Parametric EQ...HUGE IMPACT here...with the eq, it hands down trumps my subs, and even a much more expensive offering from Paradigm's Seismic line we tested...without it, it falls just short and is still a great value.

markw
10-04-2004, 04:51 AM
Does a pipe organ count as acoustic music?

RGA
10-04-2004, 05:20 PM
Mark -

Yes a Pipe Organ does so do synthesizers which are HEAVILY used in pop and rock recordings and which extend farther than ANY instrument out there. The bass design approach and driver action on AN speakers is different than Most if not all other boxed speakers currently on the market which is why virtually everyone who owns them talks about the way they pressurize a room. .

Woochifer
10-04-2004, 05:49 PM
Not sure I understand why you open the door to the possibility a sub could improve these speaker systems, but NOT AN's???? By the way, I always argue that acoustic music, with basses and tubas etc, benefit even more from a sub than amplified music.

I think you nailed it. That was the conclusion that I drew after setting up my subwoofer as well. While it made for some nice improvements to my movie viewing, where it really made a huge difference was with acoustic music. Acoustic bass in particular will highlight any inconstencies in the bass range because it freely straddles the frequencies below and above the crossover setting and it will extend down to the physical limits of a typical sub or full range speaker. Whenever I've heard a full range speaker set, the nonlinearities in the bass are fairly obvious and they change from room to room, so I know that it's more room than speaker induced.

The only time I ever heard a full range speaker that really nailed the bass was when I heard the Dynaudio Evidence Master, but that setup was in a large room with plenty of free space on all sides. Every other full range speaker and most subwoofers I've heard over the years still have some kind of issue in the bass, and you really notice this with the acoustic bass where the notes will play along steadily until a particular note strikes and it plays far louder than the others. Peaks of that magnitude typically originate with the room, and can be predicted using basic calculations.

shoe
10-04-2004, 09:41 PM
buy some used Vandersteens 2 ce's for $600-$700 spend the rest on components
Get a sub later if you think you need it.

kexodusc
10-05-2004, 03:36 AM
I think you nailed it. That was the conclusion that I drew after setting up my subwoofer as well. While it made for some nice improvements to my movie viewing, where it really made a huge difference was with acoustic music. Acoustic bass in particular will highlight any inconstencies in the bass range because it freely straddles the frequencies below and above the crossover setting and it will extend down to the physical limits of a typical sub or full range speaker. Whenever I've heard a full range speaker set, the nonlinearities in the bass are fairly obvious and they change from room to room, so I know that it's more room than speaker induced.

The only time I ever heard a full range speaker that really nailed the bass was when I heard the Dynaudio Evidence Master, but that setup was in a large room with plenty of free space on all sides. Every other full range speaker and most subwoofers I've heard over the years still have some kind of issue in the bass, and you really notice this with the acoustic bass where the notes will play along steadily until a particular note strikes and it plays far louder than the others. Peaks of that magnitude typically originate with the room, and can be predicted using basic calculations.

I've heard a few speakers really impress me in the bass department...I have to admit...the AN E's are really good. The Focus Audio FS-888 is right up there too...problem is they're both way out of my range...for the time being...but I think I can build clones or kits of these two for a fraction of the price. I'll look into that someday...I've still got 2 projects waiting for my attention I haven't had a chance to finish since the move.

I find a good sub can really create good synergy with most systems. Most of the antagonists I meet are really just clinging to the old school, citing theories of marketing conspiracy, the curse of Home Theater etc, and refuse to even give subs a serious chance.
I also have something of a preference for smaller woofers in most subs I've heard. I find 10" subs remain tight and accurate compared to the 12" cousins. Someday I might look into this a bit further to see if there's any reason why this might be or if I'm just imagining things.

muziekfreak
10-05-2004, 08:04 AM
No-offence but what the hell...magnepans don't need alot of wattage...the need a very rigid amp. Thats got nothing to do with watts ;) The powersupply must be very stable to drive magnepans [the ohm is around 1 or 2 i believe] thats nothing compared what i have in my livingroom [0,8ohm with the very well know ampkiller Infinity kappa 9]

One other thing i read all kinds of stuff here that does'nt make sense no offence gents :)
Everyone is hanging on the 20hz [best results with a 10" unit blabla] Do you really think that you can produce a [ROOMFILLING] 20hz with these kind of units?!?!? I don''t think so.

For a 20hz wave you will need the following things

A big room [20hz needs approx: 11mtrs of length]
A big housing for the sub..take the rel stenor III or the studio..there big well big...medium :D The go down to 10hz...usefull those specs?? NOPE in a range of one mtr thats not so practical is it.

The most important thing to produce a 20hz wave correctly is mass...that means a 10inch is not so good [its possible offcourse] i use myself a diy sub...this sub has been created with the intention to fill in my fronts [29hz tot 45khz] the k9 dont need no sub...the go very low [thnx to the 4x12" drivers] there you have it again mass!

Just make your own sub..

My sub

150ltr housing [closed]
Matrix inside
15" Tc-sounds [custommade woofer is very $$ but worth the money]
thomessen amp [yet to expensive but very much worth it]
Internal wiring audioquest [silver-wire would do fine to]
approx 50kg

All this was about 800euros...i can tell you this that i've compared my sub against yes believe it or not two rel stenors...the stenors were great...but the diy project was better...much more power in the low regions...thanx to the massive 15" woofer form tc-sounds [used in svs] Much more control in the diy...and this for 800euros compared to expensive rels.

SO my advise buy some kappas...the rest of the money...buy some cloths or something :D