Any normal looking HDTV's over 46" in regard to vertical height & horizontal length

[hershon]

First off I'm one of these people who hate watching movies in letterbox format and I prefer to have my TV filled up with the picture even if it means things are cut off. That said, are there any HDTV ready rear projection sets over 46" that have the picture screen a normal vertical height and horizontal length rather than the "widescreen", if thats what its called, format which where the vertical height is alot smaller than the horizontal length if this makes sense to you. My current Sony 46" picture screen is about 27" vertically high by 37" horizontally long and I'm trying to find an HDTV setup with similar dimensions.
If I'm using the wrong terms in regards to the vertical hight and horizontal length , please let me know the proper terminology.

[markw]

That's like saying you want a 12" speaker that's only 6" in diameter.

[wasch_24]

I'm confused. If you get an HDTV that has a 4:3 ratio (Almost as tall as it is wide) you will have more black bars then ever before. Espacially while watching HD broadcasts. With a widescreen, 16:9 HDTV, the only DVD's that will have blackbars are those that have a ratio that is greater than 1.85:1. The HD broadcast will likely always fill the screen because most providers 'hack' the original aspect rario to 16:9 (1.77:1) for you. This trend is slowly changing but for the most part it is still common. If you watch regular TV on the widescreen TV then you can stretch it to fill the widescreen, most TV's have several different means of doing this. If you don't like the stretched look than you can watch it with vertical pillars on each side. As long as the TV is properly calibrated there is little risk of burn in. If you get an HDTV that is at the 4:3 (1.33:1) ratio then the HD broadcasts will always be letterboxed with the blackbars all of the time because there are very few TV's out there that are capable of manipulating the HD signal, i.e zoom or crop. In the end you will end up with more letterboxing with the "normal" looking HDTV.

[hershon]

I wish I knew what you're talking about. My thing is, I'd rather see a picture filled with my whole screen of my original 24 X37 screeen measurements and not see parts of the original picture than see this on say for example 15 X50 measurements if that makes sense to you. My point isn't too debate you guys but to find out if they're any HDTV's with normal looking screen dimensions?
I'm confused. If you get an HDTV that has a 4:3 ratio (Almost as tall as it is wide) you will have more black bars then ever before. Espacially while watching HD broadcasts. With a widescreen, 16:9 HDTV, the only DVD's that will have blackbars are those that have a ratio that is greater than 1.85:1. The HD broadcast will likely always fill the screen because most providers 'hack' the original aspect rario to 16:9 (1.77:1) for you. This trend is slowly changing but for the most part it is still common. If you watch regular TV on the widescreen TV then you can stretch it to fill the widescreen, most TV's have several different means of doing this. If you don't like the stretched look than you can watch it with vertical pillars on each side. As long as the TV is properly calibrated there is little risk of burn in. If you get an HDTV that is at the 4:3 (1.33:1) ratio then the HD broadcasts will always be letterboxed with the blackbars all of the time because there are very few TV's out there that are capable of manipulating the HD signal, i.e zoom or crop. In the end you will end up with more letterboxing with the "normal" looking HDTV.

[hershon]

That's like saying you want a 12" speaker that's only 6" in diameter. If the other 6" are totally extraneous, yeah, what's the problem? Sorry I personally do not miss anything that's cut off by not being in a letterbox format. What's your point? In regards to your analogy, you're imply that I'd be missing 50% of the picture when in fact we're talking about what 10% give ot take? My point isn't too debate you guys but to find out if they're any HDTV's with normal looking screen dimensions?

[markw]

I personally do not miss anything that's cut off by not being in a letterbox format. What's your point?That's just you. Others want that extra range of vision that HD/letterbox afford. That's one of the reasons for buying it. More picture.

I'd venture that it's somewhat more than 10% you lose, except prehaps for Anamorphic wide screen releases which, IMNSHO, are ripoffs. Just a guess, but on a real wide screen releawse, I guestimate it's more like a third of the pic that's lost.

Remember, one monkey don't stop the show.

[hershon]

To quote myself again, "My point isn't too debate you guys but to find out if they're any HDTV's with normal looking screen dimensions?" You're not answering my question.
...if you still don't understand it.

[wasch_24]

To quote myself again, "My point isn't too debate you guys but to find out if they're any HDTV's with normal looking screen dimensions?" You're not answering my question.
No, not that I have ever seen. Only 36" or smaller TV's.

The whole point of a big screen, read as 46" or larger, HDTV is to take advantage of the widescreen (16:9, 1.77:1) aspect ratio.

[hifimaster]

I beleive widscreen is soon to be the standard aspect for future tv's. It will be hard to find a new HDTV that is not widescreen. Epscially over 46". Why not future-proof and look for a widscreen tv? I really don't understand why you would ant to lose up to 50% of the image the director intended.

How about this: Try looking at the image on the screen INSTEAD of the black bars. You will soon forget they are there.

James

[tpcounty]

I wish I knew what you're talking about. My thing is, I'd rather see a picture filled with my whole screen of my original 24 X37 screeen measurements and not see parts of the original picture than see this on say for example 15 X50 measurements if that makes sense to you. My point isn't too debate you guys but to find out if they're any HDTV's with normal looking screen dimensions?

My friend has a RCA model that is HDTV but it has a "FULL SCREEN" option that allows you to fill the whole screen. It does cut off some of the picture but it converts a widescreen image to full screen so that you don't have any "stretch" to the image but like I said it does cut off a little bit around the edges. I don't know if that is what you are driving at?

[Slosh]

I'd venture that it's somewhat more than 10% you lose, except prehaps for Anamorphic wide screen releases which, IMNSHO, are ripoffs. Just a guess, but on a real wide screen releawse, I guestimate it's more like a third of the pic that's lost.



Nonanamorphic wide screen releases are the rip off. Straight letterboxed DVDs essentially throw away 25% of the resolution. You want anamorphic transfers.

[markw]

Nonanamorphic wide screen releases are the rip off. Straight letterboxed DVDs essentially throw away 33% of the resolution. You want anamorphic transfers.


Perhaps I'm confused, but here's what I've noticed from these releases.

Hellboy says "Anamorphic Wide Screen" on the box. The picture has almost no top/bottom bars and is not a heckuva lot "wider" than a full screen picture. I believe Pirates of the Caribbean is the sameway but I'll need to check it out.

Most releases that I've seen labeled simply "wide screen" have much more top/bottom bars and more relative picture width, as relative to the picture height.

[hershon]

To clarify this thread, My purpose for buying an HDTV now instead of waiting for a few years is I was told the picture image is so much better. My major emphasis is watching TV shows that are broadcast on HTDV (I realize that maybe 65% of network shows are). My 46" Sony non HDTV Projector TV cosmetically looks and runs great and I am totally satisfied with the picture. Its actual picture tube/screen dimensions are around 27" Veritcal X 37" Horizontal.

All the HDTV's I've seen over 36" appear to not be in similar type dimensions in terms of the vertical screen and horizontal picture screen, with the vertcal length of the screen being alot smaller and the horizontal portion alot bigger. I simply do not really want to watch TV shows with the picture shown in these dimensions. Aren't there any HDTV's over 36" that I can watch TV shows at what I consider normal dimensions?

[wasch_24]

To clarify this thread, My purpose for buying an HDTV now instead of waiting for a few years is I was told the picture image is so much better. My major emphasis is watching TV shows that are broadcast on HTDV (I realize that maybe 65% of network shows are). My 46" Sony non HDTV Projector TV cosmetically looks and runs great and I am totally satisfied with the picture. Its actual picture tube/screen dimensions are around 27" Veritcal X 37" Horizontal.

All the HDTV's I've seen over 36" appear to not be in similar type dimensions in terms of the vertical screen and horizontal picture screen, with the vertcal length of the screen being alot smaller and the horizontal portion alot bigger. I simply do not really want to watch TV shows with the picture shown in these dimensions. Aren't there any HDTV's over 36" that I can watch TV shows at what I consider normal dimensions?
No.

And if there were, you would not be filling the screen, i.e black bars, because they most likely would not be capable of zooming/cropping the HD signal which is always going to be wider than it is tall. If you don't want to watch TV in these dimensions then HDTV is not for you. All HDTV shows are wider than they are tall and most TV's are not capable of zomming and cropping so that the show isn't wider than it is tall.

[sy_lu]

No.

And if there were, you would not be filling the screen, i.e black bars, because they most likely would not be capable of zooming/cropping the HD signal which is always going to be wider than it is tall.

That is incorrect. My Mits 4:3 HDTV can do just that; zooming a 16:9 HD 1080i from my HDTV tuner box to 4:3 screen fill if I want to do so. I also wanted a 4:3 HD screen rather than 16:9 because there are more 4:3 materials out there. I find a 4:3 screen is also better use of of space. It has bigger display area than 16:9 on a same physical width.

[hershon]

Could you please tell me your HDTV model and brand and any other similar HDT'V's you' recommend? Thanks


That is incorrect. My Mits 4:3 HDTV can do just that; zooming a 16:9 HD 1080i from my HDTV tuner box to 4:3 screen fill if I want to do so. I also wanted a 4:3 HD screen rather than 16:9 because there are more 4:3 materials out there. I find a 4:3 screen is also better use of of space. It has bigger display area than 16:9 on a same physical width.

[Woochifer]

Could you please tell me your HDTV model and brand and any other similar HDT'V's you' recommend? Thanks

I think you're fighting an uphill battle here. The 4:3 aspect ratio projection TVs that you're looking for are disappearing fast, and none of the models I've seen lately support HD resolution.

Sy Lu may have what you're looking for, but those are not going to be easy to find now. For example, all of the projection TVs in Mitsubishi's current model lineup are 16:9 widescreen, Toshiba now only makes one 4:3 projection TV model and it's not HD, all of the projection TVs on Best Buy's website are widescreen, etc. Your only option might be to find a used or closeout model, or go with a tube TV, which is really the only area where you can still find lots of HDTVs in the 4:3 aspect ratio.

[Woochifer]

Perhaps I'm confused, but here's what I've noticed from these releases.

Hellboy says "Anamorphic Wide Screen" on the box. The picture has almost no top/bottom bars and is not a heckuva lot "wider" than a full screen picture. I believe Pirates of the Caribbean is the sameway but I'll need to check it out.

Most releases that I've seen labeled simply "wide screen" have much more top/bottom bars and more relative picture width, as relative to the picture height.

The widescreen aspect ratio for HDTV and DVDs is 16:9, which works out to about 1.77:1. With motion picture film, cinematographers typically go with a 1.85:1 aspect ratio or use an anamorphic lens (i.e Cinemascope) which yields an aspect ratio of 2.35:1. A movie with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio will still have black bars when projected on a HDTV, while the 1.85:1 movie will have virtually none.

When a DVD references anamorphic widescreen, it's not referring to the usage of an anamorphic scope lens in the original filming, but rather to how the picture got encoded onto the DVD. On a 4:3 TV, if you playback an anamorphically enhanced DVD using the widescreen mode in the DVD player's setup menu, you'll notice that everything in the picture looks skinnier. On a widescreen TV, that image would stretch out to fill the entire screen horizontally. (This similar to how 2:35 widescreen movies use a lens that vertically compresses the image during filming, and then use an anamorphic projector lens that stretches out that image during theater screening.)

When playing back an anamorphic widescreen DVD on a 4:3 TV, the letterboxing is done by the DVD player by unsqueezing the picture and adding the black bars. In the process, this removes some of the resolution, and that's why you see a noticeable picture quality improvement when playing back a DVD on a 4:3 TV that has a 16:9 Enhanced mode -- because it does not remove as much of the resolution.

If the DVD was not anamorphically enhanced, then the image would actually be in a 4:3 aspect ratio with black bars fixed above and below, and on a widescreen TV, you would have black bars on ALL FOUR sides of the image unless you can zoom in. And even after zooming in, the picture will fill the screen, the image resolution is not as good as with an anamorphic widescreen DVD.

[sy_lu]

Could you please tell me your HDTV model and brand and any other similar HDT'V's you' recommend? Thanks

It is Mitsubishi VS60111 60" 4:3 HDTV. In the same model year, there was a VS50111 for 50". At the time Sony, Panasonic, RCA and Philips all had 4:3 HD models. I don't think they made them any more from last model year(if you have make a smaller 16:9 and sell for more why would you continue to make 4:3?) but from time to time I still see closout deals that are real bargin.

[hershon]

Thanks for your help I'm going to surf online to see if any of these models are available.
It is Mitsubishi VS60111 60" 4:3 HDTV. In the same model year, there was a VS50111 for 50". At the time Sony, Panasonic, RCA and Philips all had 4:3 HD models. I don't think they made them any more from last model year(if you have make a smaller 16:9 and sell for more why would you continue to make 4:3?) but from time to time I still see closout deals that are real bargin.

[hershon]

I found a 50" Mitsubishi of the type of HD I'm looking for (assuming I can get this somewhere) but what I'm puzzled by and maybe this is what other people were trying to tell me but I didn't comprehend, 1. If a TV show is being broadcast in HD (via my cable system), will the full HD process/effect show up on my now normal looking 50" screen for the full screen or will the effect be less and some distortion occuring?, 2. If I play a DVD that is regular screen picture will it still fill out the whole screen in HDTV format/effect or again will I have distortion etc., 3. What will a "letterbox" DVD look like on it- same as a regular letterbox?
Thanks for your help I'm going to surf online to see if any of these models are available.

[markw]

The widescreen aspect ratio for HDTV and DVDs is 16:9, which works out to about 1.77:1. With motion picture film, cinematographers typically go with a 1.85:1 aspect ratio or use an anamorphic lens (i.e Cinemascope) which yields an aspect ratio of 2.35:1. A movie with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio will still have black bars when projected on a HDTV, while the 1.85:1 movie will have virtually none.

When a DVD references anamorphic widescreen, it's not referring to the usage of an anamorphic scope lens in the original filming, but rather to how the picture got encoded onto the DVD. On a 4:3 TV, if you playback an anamorphically enhanced DVD using the widescreen mode in the DVD player's setup menu, you'll notice that everything in the picture looks skinnier. On a widescreen TV, that image would stretch out to fill the entire screen horizontally. (This similar to how 2:35 widescreen movies use a lens that vertically compresses the image during filming, and then use an anamorphic projector lens that stretches out that image during theater screening.)

When playing back an anamorphic widescreen DVD on a 4:3 TV, the letterboxing is done by the DVD player by unsqueezing the picture and adding the black bars. In the process, this removes some of the resolution, and that's why you see a noticeable picture quality improvement when playing back a DVD on a 4:3 TV that has a 16:9 Enhanced mode -- because it does not remove as much of the resolution.

If the DVD was not anamorphically enhanced, then the image would actually be in a 4:3 aspect ratio with black bars fixed above and below, and on a widescreen TV, you would have black bars on ALL FOUR sides of the image unless you can zoom in. And even after zooming in, the picture will fill the screen, the image resolution is not as good as with an anamorphic widescreen DVD.

I hear you now and will listen later but here's my question in simple english.

MAny "widescreen" movies have a wide aspect ratio and thick bars on the top and bottom on my Toshiba DVD/Proton 32" CRT setup. These "anamorphic" things do fill the top and bottom somewhat more, but this obviously doesn't allow for the outside R/L information to be displayed.

I don't mind the top/bottom bars. I would much rather see the full width of the scene. Is there a way around this whereby I could compress the top/bottom margins to gain more width?

[Woochifer]

I hear you now and will listen later but here's my question in simple english.

MAny "widescreen" movies have a wide aspect ratio and thick bars on the top and bottom on my Toshiba DVD/Proton 32" CRT setup. These "anamorphic" things do fill the top and bottom somewhat more, but this obviously doesn't allow for the outside R/L information to be displayed.

I don't mind the top/bottom bars. I would much rather see the full width of the scene. Is there a way around this whereby I could compress the top/bottom margins to gain more width?

Like I mentioned, the aspect ratio will vary depending on what film, gate, and lens combination the cinematographer decided to use during filming. The aspect ratio of a widescreen DVD is fixed at 1.77:1, while the movies that fit within that frame will typically vary between 1.85:1 and 2.35:1. On a TV, that means that the movie that was framed in the 2.35:1 aspect ratio will have thicker letterboxing bars at the top and bottom, while the 1.85:1 aspect ratio will have thinner letterboxing.

Next time you visit a movie theater, look at the black curtains that frame the L/R side boundaries of the screen. These curtains vary the width of the screen area to match the aspect ratio and lens used in the projector. With a movie filmed at 2.35:1 using an anamorphic lens, the projectionist needs to open the black side curtains wider in order to reveal more of the screen area; with a 1.85:1 ratio movie, the curtains are not opened as wide.

As an example, Lord of the Rings (and I believe Pirates of the Caribbean as well) was framed at a 1.85:1 aspect ratio, while the Star Wars movies were done using a 2.35:1 aspect ratio. In the theater where I saw those movies, the screen area was narrower when projecting LOTR, while with Star Wars, the screen area was wider. Same theater, same screen, same height, the only thing that varied was the width. In a home theater, you're locked into the 16:9 or 4:3 aspect ratio of the TV, so what varies is the thickness of the black bars.

Nothing on the L/R sides are actually missing when you see a letterboxed movie. It's only when you zoom in to fill the screen that you actually lose parts of the image. The only way to eliminate the black bars at the top and bottom would have been to standardize the widescreen HDTV aspect ratio at 2.35:1, which would have filled the screen when viewing those movies, but left the viewer with black bars on the SIDE when viewing material filmed at the 1.85:1 ratio.

The anamorphic terminology simply means that the image is optically compressed, and then gets stretched back out during playback. If you look at a film frame for a movie that was shot with an anamorphic lens, everything looks skinny and stretched vertically. Same thing when you look at an anamorphically enhanced DVD at full resolution on a 4:3 TV.

[sy_lu]

I found a 50" Mitsubishi of the type of HD I'm looking for (assuming I can get this somewhere) but what I'm puzzled by and maybe this is what other people were trying to tell me but I didn't comprehend, 1. If a TV show is being broadcast in HD (via my cable system), will the full HD process/effect show up on my now normal looking 50" screen for the full screen or will the effect be less and some distortion occuring?, 2. If I play a DVD that is regular screen picture will it still fill out the whole screen in HDTV format/effect or again will I have distortion etc., 3. What will a "letterbox" DVD look like on it- same as a regular letterbox?

If it is similar to my Mitsubshi then,

1. For regular 4:3 material from internal tuner or external video sources, it will display full frame 4:3.
2. For HD signal through component video that are1080i, the normal mode is with letterbox bars on top and bottom like you usually see 16:9 material on 4:3 set. The remote has a zoom button you can either stretch vertically with distortion OR zoom with crop on left and right side. The image is NORMAL, just the sides been cropped. This is the mode I normally use when I do not want to see bars. I can not stand distortions and this is the major reason I didn't get a 16:9 as I do not find any 4:3 viewing solutions on 16:9 set acceptable.
3. For 480i or 480p (DVDor otherwise) signal, like then 1080i mode, you can either watch with letterbox mode or there is a one level zoom. If the material is exactely 16:9, it will fill the screen without bars. Keep in mind though, many movies are wider than 16:9 an therefore you will still see some bars for those just as you will for the 16:9 set. All images are again NORMAL aspect ratio.

When I set out to find a 4:3 HD set, I find the Mitsubishi has the most logical and easiest to change zoom to fill or not fill the screen WITHOUT aspect ratio distortion.

[Woochifer]

As an example, Lord of the Rings (and I believe Pirates of the Caribbean as well) was framed at a 1.85:1 aspect ratio, while the Star Wars movies were done using a 2.35:1 aspect ratio. In the theater where I saw those movies, the screen area was narrower when projecting LOTR, while with Star Wars, the screen area was wider. Same theater, same screen, same height, the only thing that varied was the width. In a home theater, you're locked into the 16:9 or 4:3 aspect ratio of the TV, so what varies is the thickness of the black bars.

Oops! Gotta correct myself, LOTR was actually framed at 2.35:1, but not filmed using an anamorphic lens. So, in the theater and on DVD it has the same aspect ratio as Star Wars. The other info still applies, but I just need to use a different example.