Line Conditioner Question

[Lensman]

I live in an area where the power fluctuates both up and down. Every few days the lights may flare or dim just a little, but only exceedingly briefly. However, I've noticed I have to replace light bulbs just a bit more often here than anywhere I've lived previously. My computer's hard drive also has been in the habit developing a bad sector or two every few months since I moved here. I initially attributed the drive problems to the drive just going bad (I've had it a little while), but began to think otherwise. When I recently upgraded my system I decided to play it safe and put in a UPS. I don't know if it'll make any difference with the new drive. But I have noticed the cooling fans now make a constant sound (they oscillated before), and the monitor's display is noticably sharper.

As a result, I'm considering a line conditioner for my audio system. First, do I need one? My system is modest:

Denon AVR-1802 Receiver
Paradigm Mini Monitors & Center
Velodyne VX-10 Sub
Panasonic C220 DVD/CD Changer
Thorens TD-180 Turntable

I looked at the one's made specifically for audio systems but they really cost a lot more than I'd like to spend, and just strike me as being way overpriced for what they claim to do. Am I wrong to assume this?

If getting a line conditioner is a good idea, can I use regular one? APC sells a one for "sensitive electronic equipment" called the Line-R:
http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=67

I can buy the 1200VA version online for about $45. But no local store carries it, so I really couldn't pick one up just to try.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[ToddB]

I ran my system off of an APC Line-R 1200 for some time. I recently replaced it with a Shunyata Guardian, which sounds quite a bit better, but it doesn't do anything about brown outs like a power conditioner would. And, like you say, the audio-specific conditioners I'm aware of are all very expensive. Have you tried running your system off of the UPS to see how it sounded?

[FLZapped]

I live in an area where the power fluctuates both up and down. Every few days the lights may flare or dim just a little, but only exceedingly briefly.

What you are describing could also be due to a bad connection on your feed.

The first thing you should do is nag your power company and have them make sure all your connections are in proper order first.

-Bruce

[robin_v]

I live in an area where the power fluctuates both up and down. Every few days the lights may flare or dim just a little, but only exceedingly briefly. However, I've noticed I have to replace light bulbs just a bit more often here than anywhere I've lived previously. My computer's hard drive also has been in the habit developing a bad sector or two every few months since I moved here. I initially attributed the drive problems to the drive just going bad (I've had it a little while), but began to think otherwise. When I recently upgraded my system I decided to play it safe and put in a UPS. I don't know if it'll make any difference with the new drive. But I have noticed the cooling fans now make a constant sound (they oscillated before), and the monitor's display is noticably sharper.

As a result, I'm considering a line conditioner for my audio system. First, do I need one? My system is modest:

Denon AVR-1802 Receiver
Paradigm Mini Monitors & Center
Velodyne VX-10 Sub
Panasonic C220 DVD/CD Changer
Thorens TD-180 Turntable

I looked at the one's made specifically for audio systems but they really cost a lot more than I'd like to spend, and just strike me as being way overpriced for what they claim to do. Am I wrong to assume this?

If getting a line conditioner is a good idea, can I use regular one? APC sells a one for "sensitive electronic equipment" called the Line-R:
http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=67

I can buy the 1200VA version online for about $45. But no local store carries it, so I really couldn't pick one up just to try.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.
If you have such an unreliable power supply then I would recommend you investing in a proper UPS.

[Lensman]

Thanks for the replys!

> I ran my system off of an APC Line-R 1200 for some time. I recently replaced it with a Shunyata Guardian...

How did things sound with the Line-R? Have you noticed any difference with the Shunyata? Of course it'd be great if things sounded better, though I'm mainly concerned the brown-outs might be shortening the lives of my components (I have a decent surge protector hooked up), But I didn't want to hook anything in that might actually add line noise.

> What you are describing could also be due to a bad connection on your feed.

Hmmm. Oddly I hadn't thought of that. It doesn't seem to happen as a result of anything (storms, etc.), and the power almost never goes out here. I've had two outages in 5 years and the longest only lasted an hour. So I just assumed... But that's a great idea. I'll give them a call first.

> If you have such an unreliable power supply then I would recommend you investing in a
> proper UPS.

How do you mean "proper"? The flicker/dimming only lasts a couple of seconds when it occurs. Would a line conditioner be inadequate for this? I guess I'm really interested in the Line-R because it handles 1200VA where a comparably-priced UPS would only handle 350VA or so and I don't think I really need battery backup.

[Mr Peabody]

Line conditioning products that work are going to cost money. It sounds like you really should invest in some type of power conditioner. Go to one of the mass merchandisers, like Circuit City, who offer 30 day no questions return and pick up a Monster Cable multi task unit, around $350. and give it a try. Some of these types of products offer adjustable frequency, I would not recommend messing with that and NEVER change the frequency of your outlet power going to your turntable. Turntables are made to work at 60Hz and any variation has proven to be disastrous. It sounds like you would most benefit from voltage stablization but that is very expensive and debated how effective these products can really be. Monster is a good starting point, I wouldn't go any cheaper than that and everybody's power situation and interferences are going to be unique to their own area, so I would recommend trying any product before you buy it to see if you gain anything for your money.

[BillB]

I am seriously considering this one:

http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=211

It's not pretty but I've heard nothing but good things about their products.

Bill

[alumpkin]

I have a Shunyata Hydra 4 with a Taipan Alpha cable. Lesman, you asked if it sounds better... yes, to me.

There are lots of discussions about line conditioners, speaker cables, and surge protectors. Before I got my Shunyata, I read a few multi-paged threads and got some great advice... either go and hear one in a store or bring one home and try it out on trial (which some stores will let you do). I went to a high end audio store and listened to a Shunyata and was blown away. At first I thought it was just the room at the store, but the guy sold me the Shunyata and told me that if it did not make my system sound better, I could bring it back. I brought it home, hooked it up, and have not turned back since! I absolutely love it and my speakers are sounding better than they ever have. Also, I noticed that hooking up my HDTV to my Shunyata helped out the picture a little bit as well (mainly the black and contrast levels).

I also have noticed line conditioners being discussed on other audio messageboards, so you might want to check some of those as well. Some of the other discussions have more details about the low level engineering of line conditioners and surge protectors.

Bottom line: Shunyata products are pricey, but well worth it if you can afford it.

[Glen B]

I live in an area where the power fluctuates both up and down. Every few days the lights may flare or dim just a little, but only exceedingly briefly. However, I've noticed I have to replace light bulbs just a bit more often here than anywhere I've lived previously. My computer's hard drive also has been in the habit developing a bad sector or two every few months since I moved here. I initially attributed the drive problems to the drive just going bad (I've had it a little while), but began to think otherwise. When I recently upgraded my system I decided to play it safe and put in a UPS. I don't know if it'll make any difference with the new drive. But I have noticed the cooling fans now make a constant sound (they oscillated before), and the monitor's display is noticably sharper.

As a result, I'm considering a line conditioner for my audio system. First, do I need one? My system is modest:

Denon AVR-1802 Receiver
Paradigm Mini Monitors & Center
Velodyne VX-10 Sub
Panasonic C220 DVD/CD Changer
Thorens TD-180 Turntable

I looked at the one's made specifically for audio systems but they really cost a lot more than I'd like to spend, and just strike me as being way overpriced for what they claim to do. Am I wrong to assume this?

If getting a line conditioner is a good idea, can I use regular one? APC sells a one for "sensitive electronic equipment" called the Line-R:
http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=67

I can buy the 1200VA version online for about $45. But no local store carries it, so I really couldn't pick one up just to try.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.


Computer line conditioners are for computers and when used with audio equipment may clearly affect dynamics and detail. You are apparently on a tight budget. Furman Sound makes a model AR-1215 voltage regulator that lists for $659.00 but can be obtained for much less if you shop around. Sam Ash Music has it for $419.99 mail order.

Sam Ash: http://www.samash.com/catalog/showitem.asp?SKU=FAR1215
http://www.samash.com/catalog/showitem.asp?SKU=FAR1215

AR-1215 at Furman Sound: http://www.furmansound.com/pdfdata/AR-1215.pdf

[BillB]

What are the differences between units sold to the audio crowd, the musician crowd, the computer crowd, the hospital crowd, etc??

It would seem that it is a product with a specific job to do...regulate the voltage being sent to your equipment at a constant 120V. If it adds noise filtration or surge suppression all the better.

What's the difference between units?

Bill

[ToddB]

How did things sound with the Line-R? Have you noticed any difference with the Shunyata? Of course it'd be great if things sounded better, though I'm mainly concerned the brown-outs might be shortening the lives of my components (I have a decent surge protector hooked up), But I didn't want to hook anything in that might actually add line noise.

Well, sonic considerations weren't my priority when I got the Line-R, protection from spurious power was. Like alumpkin's Shunyata experience, the sound through my Guardian is in an entirely different league, but I doubt it's so much that the Line-R adds noise as it's because the Guardian removes it. Again, though, I have to reiterate that Shunyata's products WILL NOT pull up power levels when they drop too low. The sonic improvement for a lowered protection level is a trade-off I'm willing to take at that price point, but you might not be comfortable with that risk, and indeed, it may not be a wise risk in your particular situation.

[Glen B]

What are the differences between units sold to the audio crowd, the musician crowd, the computer crowd, the hospital crowd, etc??

It would seem that it is a product with a specific job to do...regulate the voltage being sent to your equipment at a constant 120V. If it adds noise filtration or surge suppression all the better.

What's the difference between units?

Bill

The filtration in many line conditioners, especially non-audio products can employ coils/chokes and sonically inferior capacitors in their design. Audio amplifiers tend to draw current in pulses according to the musical demand as opposed to steady-state like a computer or appliance. These pulses can be large, sudden and of very brief duration. Coils/chokes can cause a time lag that affects the ability of the line conditioner they are used in to deliver the current suddenly demanded and this can affect dynamics and other aspects of musical performance. Imagine yourself breathing through a straw while trying to perform sudden demanding physical activity. These coils (and capacitors) may also have other sonic downsides. In a modest system you could get away with any old line conditioner but in a high-resolution system it may be an entirely different matter.

Conditioners designed for audio (and pro use too, like Furman and other products) will take into account the sonic effects of the parts used in their products. Computer products on the other hand are only concerned with maintaining a steady voltage and filtering noise. No consideration is given to response time and sonics. I have personally had the experience where an EMI/RFI block filter I was using had such a negative effect on the music as to cause a clearly audible loss of musical detail and smearing of the image. This filter employed small chokes on both the hot and neutral lines.

In playing a track with acoustic guitar and vocal, the filter caused the sound of the guitar and voice to sound dull as if a blanket was thrown over the speakers. The musical image sounded ill-defined as if one speaker was wired out of phase. When I disconnected the filter, the image returned to being firm and centered between the speakers and the sound of the guitar and vocals were crisp and clear once again. I could not believe my ears. The negative effect of the filter was so apparent. Yes, the filter removed RF interference but at the expense of the music. It was tradeoff I was not comfortable living with.

I have also heard praise for the Tripplite LCR2400. This product may work just fine for your needs.

[Lensman]

Thanks for all the replies. I'd have gotten back sooner, but Hurricane Ivan knocked out power, etc. and we just got back to normal. I haven't noticed any flickering since things came back on, but I'm watching for it. Just as well. There's crews from about a dozen states working to restore power to everyone, so now's not a good time to ask the power company about something so trivial.

So am I reading this correctly? Standard line conditioners decrease audio quality because they use non-audio-grade coils/chokes, etc. This would also infer that standard surge protectors can decrease audio quality as well since they use similar components.

Therefore, the only way to provide electrical protection to my system that doesn't degrade the sound quality would be to spend essentially 100% to 200% the cost of my receiver for an audio-grade line conditioner. :(

[Glen B]

Thanks for all the replies. I'd have gotten back sooner, but Hurricane Ivan knocked out power, etc. and we just got back to normal. I haven't noticed any flickering since things came back on, but I'm watching for it. Just as well. There's crews from about a dozen states working to restore power to everyone, so now's not a good time to ask the power company about something so trivial.

So am I reading this correctly? Standard line conditioners decrease audio quality because they use non-audio-grade coils/chokes, etc. This would also infer that standard surge protectors can decrease audio quality as well since they use similar components.

Therefore, the only way to provide electrical protection to my system that doesn't degrade the sound quality would be to spend essentially 100% to 200% the cost of my receiver for an audio-grade line conditioner. :(

Certainly not. You don't need to spend an arm and leg to get a decent power conditioner that will also provide surge and spike protection. The 15A Ultimate Outlet from PS Audio will run you $300. You have other options such as one of the smaller Monster units, Furman Sound, Panamax, that may cost a bit less. Shop around, search for user reviews and opinions and you will find something to suit your pocket. Just no Radio Shack or computer UPSs. Admittedly, I have two VCRs and two digital cable boxes in my home theater system plugged into a small Belkin UPS to preserve programmed settings when household power is off for any reason. However, these are not devices used for critical listening so such an application of a computer UPS is fine.

Ultimate Outlet: http://www.psaudio.com/products/ultimate_outlet.asp

[kenobi]

Check out: http://www.b-p-t.com. They have budget priced products up to kilobuck offerings. Reviews are nothing short of the best.

Good luck,

Kenobi