AC Power thread from Cable Asylum.

[markw]

...where never is heard a discouraging word. You post some interesting statements that are hard to argue with on a subjective basis.

For those just tuning in, this is a response to this post/question in the cable asylum, err.. forum. http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?p=50085#post50085

"If you are of the opinion that cables do not make a difference, please post elsewhere."

Yep you're in the right place. Reinforcment is what you will get. Any disagreement would involve a little technical discussion and that is not allowed here. If you are really interested in both sides, then you might want to pose this query in the Audio Lab, where both sides can be aired without fear of reprisal.

For convience sake, I'll repost this (and a link to it here) in that forum should you choose to explore that route.

"But I guess if someone is convinced it will do no good, then chances are they will hear nothing."

Please be aware that this just may be the sharpest double edged sword in the arsenal. Handle it with extreme caution.

"Sure, equipment has some sort of voltage regulation built in, but when the difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard, we can see and hear the result."

Again, this is a statement of a technical nature. The logical response to this would involve one simple sentence but that is not allowed in this forum. Although it seems to support your wishes for better sound, you might get some serious, well thought out rebuttals from experienced techies on the previously mentioned forum.

To attempt to use technical terms w/o fear of technical rebuttal is to simply use this forum as a bully pulpit. Now, wether or not that is the intenet here is still under evaluation.

"And on a different note. why does everyone get all huffy-puffy when someone talks about "prettying-up" their cables?"

Nobody gets huffy about "prettying-up" cables. Eyebrows are raised, however, when it's implied that it makes an audiable difference which may or may not be the case. See the next paragraph for more on this subject. Again, for serious rebuttals, please post this in the Audio Lab where any differing opinions are not hobbled by the rules here.

"Part of being an audiophile is not just experimenting with different components to achieve a higher level, but also with the cables, and speaker wires, and racks, and shelves, and so on."

Actually, on the whole I agree with statement save for one word. "Experimenting", which implies some sort of controls when testing to either prove or disprove a theory. Now, if casual listening is all it takes for you then that's fine, but to call it an experiment is a misnomer.

"I believe they can make a difference because I probably have a better understanding of electronics (because of my schooling) and because I've heard first hand the difference they can make (although I've never tested the AC effect)."

Beliefs are a good thing. Attempting to see if these beliefs are valid would take some experimentation, and this was covered in the previous paragraph. But, be aware that many other people here have some serious schooling as well and quite a few years of experience in the fiield as well. Many have opinions that you might not agree with. If you wish to share your beliefs with thei knowledge and experience, try that other forum. If not, you are merely preaching to the choir.

But, I think the most telling statement is from your second post.

"I know they're expensive and have high mark-ups, but I like their styling and since these cords are visible in my system, a "pretty" cable is prefferred. "

...I most certainly can't and won't argue with that.

I you want unqualified approval of your statements and reinforcements of your beliefs with no dissenting opinions, then either this forum or http://audioasylum.com will serve you well.

If you want serious discussion, try the Audio Lab or perhaps other forums such as http://www.audioholics.com.

...enjoy

[woodman]

Mark:
What cracked me up big time was the poor fool's claim to have an education in electronics including a degree - which he couldn't even spell correctly! What is so freakin' difficult about the word "Batchelor"? It's spelled just like it sounds, but he couldn't muscle up for it.

He really exposed himself with his claim of an electronics education, which was obviously FALSE, since he made so many egregious statements and claims which were totally without any basis in fact. When I challenged him on his "education", he got highly offended - which brings up the old saw ... "methinks that thou doth protest too much" doesn't it?

Sheeeeeeeeesh!!!!!!!

[markw]

It's quite a shame that this guy comes in and spouts all kinds of technical sounding fluff which has (IMNSHO) nothing to do at all with the desired results. And, then puts the cherry on the sundae by claiming to have a degree in electronics. Then, I offer him a chance to expound on his theories here, where "science" and measurments are supposed to be a valid rebuttal to technobabble, which he simply ignores.

It's only fair that, since he's the one that tried to use science to buttress his point and impress those in question, that the mods allowed the rebuttals he was met with. Now, had he just asked the question w/o the window dressing, then I would assume that a simple "red pill" to a response in this forum be provided and should suffice.

That way, those honestly questioning the reasoning would be provided with a suitable discourse and, for those who wish to ignore them, they would still have their "blue pill" and remain ignorant by choice. The lurkers, however, would have a chance to hear the other side of the debate.

The fact that he chose to ignore all the well thought out responses does cause me to question the depth of his education and experience, however. ...but not his belief.


Perhaps there is a chance yet...

[woodman]

... The fact that he chose to ignore all the well thought out responses does cause me to question the depth of his education and experience, however. ...but not his belief.


I don't merely question the "depth of his education and experience" ... I seriously doubt that he's had any such education at all. Otherwise, he'd know better than to be talking such trash as gaining sonic performance by way of a fershlugginer power cord, fer crissakes! He quite obviously hasn't a clue regarding the design of electronic components and devices, and the part that a unit's power supply plays in making the incoming A-C power virtually irrelevant to the performance of the device.

Now, we get "moderators" who'll not only tolerate his brand of nonsense, they're actually giving him the feedback that he seeks. Yikes!

[E-Stat]

What cracked me up big time was the poor fool's claim to have an education in electronics including a degree - which he couldn't even spell correctly! What is so freakin' difficult about the word "Batchelor"?
As opposed, of course, to your misspelling as well.

rw

[E-Stat]

The fact that he chose to ignore all the well thought out responses does cause me to question the depth of his education and experience, however. ...but not his belief.
Just curious as to which aftermarket cords you have tried in your system.

rw

[E-Stat]

Now, we get "moderators" who'll not only tolerate his brand of nonsense, they're actually giving him the feedback that he seeks. Yikes!
A moderator's job is simply to ensure that posts are topical and civil.

As for the "nonsense", I'll ask the same question of you that I asked of Mark. Which aftermarket cords have you tried in your system?

rw

[markw]

A moderator's job is simply to ensure that posts are topical and civil.

As for the "nonsense", I'll ask the same question of you that I asked of Mark. Which aftermarket cords have you tried in your system?

rw

Well, I did replace the cord on my Marantz Model 8 with a thicker cord a few years ago. No appreciable difference. ;)

[FLZapped]

A moderator's job is simply to ensure that posts are topical and civil.

rw


Really, then what's up with this statement:

I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded.

Very civil indeed.

Hypocrite.

-Bruce

[Rycher]

Really, then what's up with this statement:

I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded.

Very civil indeed.

Hypocrite.

-Bruce


Wow. You directly called a moderator a "Hypocrite". You mentioned that any direct name calling is a violation of forum rules and is punishable by a ban. Oh well, see you later, or not. :)

[FLZapped]

Wow. You directly called a moderator a "Hypocrite". You mentioned that any direct name calling is a violation of forum rules and is punishable by a ban. Oh well, see you later, or not. :)


Call 'em as I see 'em.

Don't think I didn't notice your little exercise in name calling either, which makes you a hypocrit too.

-Bruce
(Still awaiting test data)

[Rycher]

Call 'em as I see 'em.

Don't think I didn't notice your little exercise in name calling either, which makes you a hypocrit too.

-Bruce
(Still awaiting test data)

My sentence you referenced was pretty simple and written in plain english. There was no such reference, or even the most remote possibility of any name-calling in it. But as long as we're on the subject of hypocites...........

[FLZapped]

My sentence you referenced was pretty simple and written in plain english. There was no such reference, or even the most remote possibility of any name-calling in it. But as long as we're on the subject of hypocites...........


these snakes.

Yep, that's plain english, plainly an insult to anyone who challenged you assertions.....

-Bruce
(Still no evidence presented....)

[E-Stat]

Really, then what's up with this statement:

I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded.

My guess is that none of the three of you have used an aftermarket cord in your system. If I am in error, I will stand corrected.

rw

[woodman]

My guess is that none of the three of you have used an aftermarket cord in your system. If I am in error, I will stand corrected.
rw

Your "guess" is very likely to be quite corrrect since the "three of us" actually know something about electronics as opposed to those that merely think that they do. Knowing electronics (having actually studied it) precludes the notion that a power cord can have any meaningful effect on the performance of the component or device that it supplies A-C power to. It's just that simple. The fact that you believe that you heard some improvement by changing a power cord has no basis in fact, and is merely the subjective evaluation of a sensory perception that was created by your own personal ABEs ... that's all. It was not something "real" as that is not something that is even remotely possible.

As to MY misspelling of "Bachelor" ... you were absolutely right about that one. I'm embarassed at my mistake - my spelling is generally flawless. My bad.

[FLZapped]

My guess is that none of the three of you have used an aftermarket cord in your system. If I am in error, I will stand corrected.

rw


Not the point. -Bruce

[markw]

OK, here's my one line response to your original post.

Friend, if your system is so dependent on voltage variations, you need to be looking at either power conditioners which can maintain a constant voltage/current level and perhaps "smooth out" AC on very bad AC lines, or perhaps an uninteruptable power supply if it's that critical.

To expect such actions from a power cord is not realistic. That's hoping for a silver bullet.

[E-Stat]

Knowing electronics (having actually studied it) precludes the notion that a power cord can have any meaningful effect on the performance of the component or device that it supplies A-C power to. It's just that simple.
Thank you for that frank affirmation. Someday, you may be surprised!

rw

[E-Stat]

Not the point. -Bruce
It may not be your point, but it perfectly supports the observation of mine that you took exception to. At least Woodman acknowledges that his opinion is driven by theory, not direct experience.

rw

[E-Stat]

Friend, if your system is so dependent on voltage variations...
Who said anything about a cord maintaining voltage variations?

rw

[FLZapped]

It may not be your point, but it perfectly supports the observation of mine that you took exception to. At least Woodman acknowledges that his opinion is driven by theory, not direct experience.

rw

Woodmans reply is not to the point either.

Let me lay it out then: As moderator, you should depart from of such statements that can be viewed as ad hominem attacks. If you cannot, maybe you should reconsider being in that position.

-Bruce

[E-Stat]

Let me lay it out then: As moderator, you should depart from of such statements that can be viewed as ad hominem attacks. If you cannot, maybe you should reconsider being in that position.
My apologies if you found the observation to be a personal attack. markw and Woodman seem more comfortable with their theoretical stand. I question any "scientific" results that rely upon theory alone. Especially for when quite a number of folks have discovered otherwise.

If you recall, Rycher specifically asked for those with direct experience with aftermarket cords. I found it highly ironic that the first respondents to jump in do not.

rw

BTW, Frances gave us in the Atlanta area a little dose of what you got in spades. My broadband is currently out!

[FLZapped]

My apologies if you found the observation to be a personal attack. markw and Woodman seem more comfortable with their theoretical stand. I question any "scientific" results that rely upon theory alone. Especially for when quite a number of folks have discovered otherwise.

Accepted.

I think by now I've made my position more than abudantly clear and don't need to rehash history.

-Bruce

[Monstrous Mike]

I question any "scientific" results that rely upon theory alone.
Well there is some theory yes (assuming you are talking about a naysayer here and really there are no naysayers, just maysayers) and then there are also some measurements and even some subjective listening testing. And nobody is putting forth anything as a "result", it is simply a likely conclusion based on opinion and current theory and measurement.

Now on the yeasayer side of the parking lot, we have anecdotal reporting which is the result of in-home experimentation. However, there is no theory to explain these results nor are there any correlated measurements. There is only conjecture like "we haven't discovered what properties should be measured". And all of this is from testing that is non-scientific, non-controled and completely subjective. Yet, many people have decisively concluded that power cords affect audio sound.

Therefore, I question any "scientific results" that rely on unsubstantiated and unscientific observation alone, especially in the face of a lack of theoretical explanation as well as a lack of experimental measurements.



Especially for when quite a number of folks have discovered otherwise.

In the absence of science, it's amazing what people can "discover". And sheer numbers do not validate anything in a scientific manner, they simply indicate that the "discovery" is popular or intriguing. And anything in the audiophile world which indicates that sound improvement may be had is going to be very popular. Perhaps so popular as to abandon otherwise good judgement.

[E-Stat]

Perhaps it's time that you provided some theory to explain your observations.
According to engineers with whom I've spoken, the main villain targeted by aftermarket cords is noise generated not hundreds of miles away at some power sub station, but hundreds of feet away inside your home by computers, fluorescent light fixtures, refrigerators, digitally controlled appliances, and even inches away by digital sources like CDPs. All of which generate RFI that is transmitted through the power line and ultimately through the audio components. Good electronic components will happily amplify the noise along with the signal.



And also, maybe you should look again at the method you use for your experimentation.
My method? You mean hearing deeper into my music? Discovering subtle details for recordings that I've heard hundreds of times before? Reading a book on EE theory will tell me more about the harmonic structure of a piano? Don't think so.


It is the non-theoretical experimentationalists that are demanding that the non-experiential theoriticians come up with the theory to explain their observations. Did I get that right or am I missing something?
You're missing something. I demand nothing other than for my opinion to be heard and considered. Unlike others, however, I will not step in with my observations if a discussion of audio theory is desired.


Oh Mr. Static...

...or do you prefer Lord-E...
The former is fine.


How can a power cord that supplies your TTs motor have any effect on the audio loop?
Essentially the same answer as above. Perhaps my system is more subject to this effect due to the use of a low output MC cartridge.

As a software developer, when I seek answers to audio related electronics questions, I prefer to consult EEs whose chosen field is not only audio, but those who have been designing and producing high performance equipment for decades. A nice advantage of having known two prominent audio reviewers for over 25 years is that through them, I have met quite a few highly regarded and successful audio engineers. Naturally, you will find quite a range in personalities. On the one hand, you have cautious old-school guys like William Z. Johnson and Jud Barber who simply acknowledge the benefits of using aftermarket cords. Then there are guys like Ole Lund Christensen and Luke Manley who either don't supply a cord at all with their products or fully expect their customers to choose their own.

It's not as if anyone of these engineers make anything with "inferior" power supplies. Ever look at the power supply size of the big Audio Research, VTL, GamuT, or Joule Electra amps? They are measured in hundreds of joules. How about their preamps with likewise massive regulation?

What I really find most enjoyable about being involved in informal discussions or dinners with these guys is that they would really rather talk about music than the gear. That's what it is all about for me, too.

rw

[FLZapped]

Accepted.

-Bruce

I'll also add thankyou to that, so far, you've been more introspective than any of the other new mods I've encountered so far.

[Monstrous Mike]

According to engineers with whom I've spoken, the main villain targeted by aftermarket cords is noise generated not hundreds of miles away at some power sub station, but hundreds of feet away inside your home by computers, fluorescent light fixtures, refrigerators, digitally controlled appliances, and even inches away by digital sources like CDPs. All of which generate RFI that is transmitted through the power line and ultimately through the audio components. Good electronic components will happily amplify the noise along with the signal.
Print this post out and take it back to your engineer friends.

The only way to make an electronic component power cord able to filter EMI/RFI is to shield it. This will reduce the effect of the cord acting like an antenna. However, there are two problems with this. First, this will only protect against <i>radiated</i> interference and secondly, there is a direct connection with the house wiring so this shielding is essentially useless since the house wiring will act like an antenna and conduct the interference right to the power input on the amp.

The other major form of EMI/RFI is <i>conducted</i> interference which comes from noise on the AC line. Please have them explain how a power cord can filter this type of interference and noise.

This explanation can be in layman's terms or as technical as they want. And if the answer is that these superior cords simply sound better, then you don't really need any engineers at all, do you? No wait, you still need the ones who design these cords but can't explain how they work. Personally, I haven't met an engineer like that yet although hanging around here, I feel I am getting close.

[FLZapped]

According to engineers with whom I've spoken, the main villain targeted by aftermarket cords is noise generated not hundreds of miles away at some power sub station, but hundreds of feet away inside your home by computers, fluorescent light fixtures, refrigerators, digitally controlled appliances, and even inches away by digital sources like CDPs. All of which generate RFI that is transmitted through the power line and ultimately through the audio components. Good electronic components will happily amplify the noise along with the signal.

Not always, most engineers are smart enough to put broadband filtering in their designs. However, this is a different topic than what the poster was after. Certainly, if you can positively identify a souce of interference causing degradation of your equipment's performance, a proper solution should be sought. If it is a radiated problem, a filtered power cord may not help at all, or be only a portion of the solution.

BTW - you can make a cheap rf choke by sliding a cardboard tube over your powercord and stuffing it tightly with steel wool. The fun part is keeping the cord in the middle of the assembly whilst stuffing away. Then you can cap off the ends and slide the whole assembly up and down the cord to see where it has the most effect.



My method? You mean hearing deeper into my music? Discovering subtle details for recordings that I've heard hundreds of times before? Reading a book on EE theory will tell me more about the harmonic structure of a piano? Don't think so.

No, but a book on acoustic instrument physics might. :D

-Bruce

[markw]

Who said anything about a cord maintaining voltage variations?

rw

Mr Wizard's second post hits at this. If those teeny tiny micro mini volts are lost in the power cord and it adversely affects the performance of the gear, it indicates a major problem in either the power supply in the unit or the wall. A power cord ain't gonna do squat.

That's like putting a Sponge Bob band aid on a gaping chest wound and expecting it to be all better.

[markw]

My guess is that none of the three of you have used an aftermarket cord in your system. If I am in error, I will stand corrected.

rw

Although I'm pretty sure my listening was done in at least as scientific manner as others around here, I didn't hear any difference. How much does one need to spent to qualify for "aftermarket" status?

[E-Stat]

Although I'm pretty sure my listening was done in at least as scientific manner as others around here, I didn't hear any difference. How much does one need to spent to qualify for "aftermarket" status?
I assign no particular value to that question. One of mine ran $60, with the plugs and labor covering most of the cost. Unfortunately, there are umpteen variables given environments, components, and lastly, the cords themselves. My recommendation is not to buy any component without trying it out first.

rw

[E-Stat]

The only way to make an electronic component power cord able to filter EMI/RFI is to shield it. This will reduce the effect of the cord acting like an antenna. However, there are two problems with this. First, this will only protect against <i>radiated</i> interference and secondly, there is a direct connection with the house wiring so this shielding is essentially useless since the house wiring will act like an antenna and conduct the interference right to the power input on the amp.
There are a number of shielded cords with built in filter networks at both ends to prevent such "backwash". Perhaps that is sufficient enough for the audible result.


The other major form of EMI/RFI is <i>conducted</i> interference which comes from noise on the AC line. Please have them explain how a power cord can filter this type of interference and noise.
Ditto.

rw

[Tony_Montana]

There are a number of shielded cords with built in filter networks at both ends to prevent such "backwash".

E-stat

To understand the concept of power cord and RF/noise better, you also have to look into what happens after they enter a component. The AC is down stepped, converted to DC and THEN filtered. Since it is much easier and "more" effective to filter DC than AC, then it will be redundant, less effective [and unnecessary] to have filter at the AC end.

Usually power cord shielding is done to prevent it from contaminating other component and wires, not the other way around :)

[E-Stat]

Usually power cord shielding is done to prevent it from contaminating other component and wires, not the other way around :)
I think we're saying the same thing. By backwash, I mean sending digital hash from a CDP back through the AC mains.

rw

[markw]

I think we're saying the same thing. By backwash, I mean sending digital hash from a CDP back through the AC mains.

rwI think Tony is saying is that the shielding on the AC cable is to prevent it's radiating anything to the surrounding wires/interconnects and any EMI/RFI sensitive equipment, thereby being the cause of the problem, not the victim of one.

The AC cable, unlike a line level interconnect, isn't in the signal path so there is no way any impurities that could possibly impinge themselves on that 60hz, 120 vac signal will be amplified.

Likewise, any junk coming into the AC cable from outside sources would be removed by the power supply, which would pretty much remove 'em by stepping the voltage down and then converting it to a quite pure DC. And, to get that DC requires a pretty low, low pass filter so any RF type stuff will be pretty much dissipated to ground.

Of course, I may have totally misread Tony and, if that's the case, I apologize.

[Tony_Montana]

I think we're saying the same thing. By backwash, I mean sending digital hash from a CDP back through the AC mains.

HI E-Stat

Could you elaborate as how hash from CDP can get back into AC main?


I think Tony is saying is that the shielding on the AC cable is to prevent it's radiating anything to the surrounding wires/interconnects and any EMI/RFI sensitive equipment, thereby being the cause of the problem, not the victim of one.

Hi Mark

That is exactly what I am saying :)

With today's home theater environment where we have all type of wires and IC running every where and in every directions, shielding a power cord might be one way to reduce EMI-since power cord are "big" source of it :)

[jneutron]

The AC cable, unlike a line level interconnect, isn't in the signal path so there is no way any impurities that could possibly impinge themselves

HOLY MACKERAL...

Why would you say that?? If that were the case, my job here at work would be so much easier..

Cheers, John

[FLZapped]

HOLY MACKERAL...

Why would you say that?? If that were the case, my job here at work would be so much easier..

Cheers, John


Well, well, lookie who crawled out from under the baseboards....find any good flat wire under there?

So how ya been stranger??

-Bruce
(hmmm, now why would anyone wanna cut JN slack....hmmm.....)

[jneutron]

Well, well, lookie who crawled out from under the baseboards....find any good flat wire under there?

So how ya been stranger??

-Bruce
(hmmm, now why would anyone wanna cut JN slack....hmmm.....)


Ummmm..actually....been strange...

Flat wire?..been lookin at that diy post, I see..

Man, just couldn't get a jpeg to show up there to save my life, so had to plant that gobblygook equational stuff..man, I hate doin that when a good pic will do...AHA...tried to upload here, guess the height was the problem...

Actually, haven't had much to say here..watchin the fireworks from a cheap seat..

I come back from vaca, and see that Terrence closed the thread, leaving me no ability to respond to his response to me...be it agree, disagree, whatever...man I hate that..
(I assume Terrence is not an "attack", but..hey, these are confusing times).

Now that I see the pic showed up, guess I have to explain to all here...

The Q was how to calculate the inductance of a pair of flat conductors that are on each other. This is a graph of the inductance of two cylindrical conductors which are coaxial..without the internal inductance of a round wire. The lines are the thickness of the dielectric..the x axis is diameter, .3 is approximately the same as 1 inch wide foil.

This equation will break down as the aspect ratio of the insulator heads up, this is good for wide conductors with thin insulation. For wide spacing, ya gotta go back to the Terman equation.

Cheers, John

[FLZapped]

Ummmm..actually....been strange...

Flat wire?..been lookin at that diy post, I see..

Yep, like my DIY solution?



Actually, haven't had much to say here..watchin the fireworks from a cheap seat..


Ah yes, Uekers favorite.

Thanks for the chart, I'll go study it some more.

-Bruce
(no more bruised nail beds....)

[FLZapped]

The Q was how to calculate the inductance of a pair of flat conductors that are on each other. This is a graph of the inductance of two cylindrical conductors which are coaxial..without the internal inductance of a round wire. The lines are the thickness of the dielectric..the x axis is diameter, .3 is approximately the same as 1 inch wide foil.

Cheers, John

Ya know, it would be interesting to see at what diameter those lines all converge at . . .

-Bruce
(as if you don't have enough to do already)

[jneutron]

Ya know, it would be interesting to see at what diameter those lines all converge at . . .

-Bruce
(as if you don't have enough to do already)

They don't..along either axis..the x-y products are constants..

It's like a graph of 1/x, 2/x, 3/x....they never converge.

Cheers, John

[FLZapped]

John,

Being that you used a cylindrical model, there are no edges to suffer from various fringing effects....


-Bruce
(I know, I'm a real big pain)

[jneutron]

John,

Being that you used a cylindrical model, there are no edges to suffer from various fringing effects....


-Bruce
(I know, I'm a real big pain)

Correctamundo..(first part, not second)

There are two reasons I said it falls apart as the aspect ratio gets too large..one is because it neglects the edges as you say, where the magnetic field will spill out into space as a dipole field...the other is the curvature of the dielectric, as the inner dielectric surface has a higher e field density than the outside surface of the dielectric..so the overall capacitance will begin to stray off...(actually, the reason the jpeg was so tall was because I had two pictures in the origional, the second being the capacitance vs diameter for various insulation thicknesses.

Cheers, John

[FLZapped]

They don't..along either axis..the x-y products are constants..

It's like a graph of 1/x, 2/x, 3/x....they never converge.

Cheers, John


Hmmmmm....so when you drop the ball, it falls half way, then half way again, and half way again . . . . . .

:eek:

-Bruce
(I'm sorry, but you can't get there from here.....now go eat your pi)

[jneutron]

Hmmmmm....so when you drop the ball, it falls half way, then half way again, and half way again . . . . . .

:eek:

-Bruce
(I'm sorry, but you can't get there from here.....now go eat your pi)

Yup...

I was also :eek: 'd to see a plot of L vs C, C vs diameter, characteristic impedance vs C and vs L and vs diameter, really interesting to find how the fields work..

Enough thread hijacking...back to our currently scheduled program...

The cable which delivers the power to any appliance completes a ground loop which is shared by the input wires...that loop is susceptible to e/m fields, and will intercept them and generate a loop voltage..that is why all the really good pro type stuff (not to mention 30 kiloamp power supplies) will use differential input circuitry..

And, why some amps, even with diff input, can still be susceptible to ground loop currents..

And yet, Nobody in the world (I am aware of, anyway), tests for it, measures it, or even discusses it..

That's why I put my 2 cents worth into this thread..

Cheers, John

PS....Hasn't anyone heard their subwoofer pop when an appliance turns on or off????Where do you think that sound gets in?? Hint: it ain't because of power supply inadequacies..

[Tony_Montana]

PS....Hasn't anyone heard their subwoofer pop when an appliance turns on or off????Where do you think that sound gets in?? Hint: it ain't because of power supply inadequacies..

Ok John, I will bite. What causes the pop, and what is the cure?

I always get this nasty pop sound from subwoofer when I turn off my flourescent light :mad:

[jneutron]

Ok John, I will bite. What causes the pop, and what is the cure?

I always get this nasty pop sound from subwoofer when I turn off my flourescent light :mad:

Ummm, Tony...

I already posted a pic, with the relations...here..

And, in return, you mashed me about the quality of my drawings, and my handwriting..

So, poo poo to you..you naysayer..

He he..

HI Tony...hey, notice the deletions over there in the Heaviside discussion...took what, less than 12 hours? I'm so bad, pointing out poor behaviour..got another nastygram too...man, I'm just thiiiiiis close to "history".

I am really getting tired of all this "miles and miles of wires" stuff..

Yes, there are miles of wires...

Yes, the electrons are slow...

But, no...audio equipment does not refer it's input to a ground located at the power generator...in fact, most refer their inputs to the ground of the ac outlet, in one way or another.

External entities, like lights, motors, all bounce the ground reference, or by loop pickup, cause ground currents..here, since the ground currents can be large, in the tens of amps, and fast (12 phase scr based power supplies).

Re:your sub...how is it connected to the power?...How is the input cable routed?

BEFORE DOING THE NEXT: Make absolutely sure all your outlets are wired correctly!!! no neutral/hot reversal...

Take a DVM, and measure the ground to ground voltage (NOT THE NEUTRALS) between the sub and your source (receiver) with the signal cable not connected. Then, measure the AC amps between the grounds..then, at each outlet, measure the neutral to ground voltage. (In my office, the outlets have between 1/4 volt and 1.5 volts between grounds with no office load..)

Then, repeat each while turning the light on and off..

Answer with a nice description of your setup (perhaps a crude drawing???):-), and then we can troubleshoot more.

Note: a cable hookup can also give problems...Since it is physically separated from the ac house feed, it forms a really big loop. Any unbalanced ac draw can broadcast to the cable...unbalanced being currents that go from your neutral/ground at the panel, through the ground wire into the house water main feed in. This current does not neutralize at the house mains input, wreaking havoc..

Cheers, John

PS..a pic woulda been better, Tony...maybe my 9 year old can draw one you'd consider quality...as mine just don't meet your standards...:-)

[FLZapped]

Of course, it could also be an arcing of the switch due to the inductive kickback from the ballast.....

-Bruce

[jneutron]

Of course, it could also be an arcing of the switch due to the inductive kickback from the ballast.....

-Bruce
I'm confident you are correct.

What I describe is the path the transient takes to get to the sub input..

Sure, anybody could just say get rid of the light...like when the guy says doc:it hurts when I do this.......Well, then....don't do that....badaboom..

But, what fun would that be???

Cheers, John

What...did I wake you?

[FLZapped]

I'm confident you are correct.

What I describe is the path the transient takes to get to the sub input..



(Goofy modeon....)

Awwwwwww.....shucks...yuck, yuck.....*blush*
:p

(Goofy Mode off......)

[Tony_Montana]

Thanks guys.


HI Tony...hey, notice the deletions over there in the Heaviside discussion...took what, less than 12 hours? I'm so bad, pointing out poor behaviour..got another nastygram too...man, I'm just thiiiiiis close to "history".

Yes, I did notice that. Poor Keith Lockwood got caught in the cross fire. As you noted, they are not very tolerant of posters that do not follow their guidelines..which is really sad. Alot of good informations can be exchanged between members, but due to rule of iron fist, most of them end up in the gutter or simply get deleted.


Take a DVM, and measure the ground to ground voltage (NOT THE NEUTRALS) between the sub and your source (receiver) with the signal cable not connected. Then, measure the AC amps between the grounds..then, at each outlet, measure the neutral to ground voltage. (In my office, the outlets have between 1/4 volt and 1.5 volts between grounds with no office load..)

Then, repeat each while turning the light on and off..

Answer with a nice description of your setup (perhaps a crude drawing???):-), and then we can troubleshoot more.

That sound like a weekend project. I see if I can fiddle with scenario this weekend and get back with you.

FLZapped also mentioned problem being arcing of the switch due to the inductive kickback from the ballast. That also might be a problem since the light and sub share the same AC plug.

I will investigate more :)

[jneutron]

That also might be a problem since the light and sub share the same AC plug.


Um, Tony??

Get rid of the light..or don't turn it on and off in time with the music..

I thought you were talking about the light being on a different circuit from either the sub or the receiver..

Cheers, John

PS..do me a favor, Tony...if you want me to see a post, use the "reply to this post" button, so I'll get an e-mail notification. I don't lurk here as I used to.

[A-Audiophile]

Cable Theory (http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf)

[Resident Loser]

...you have seen fit to respond to a thread that hasn't been posted to since September of 2004...

Secondly...a link to cable theory as presented by a wire company?...yeah, I'm sure it's not even slightly biased...

jimHJJ(...and just full'O'factoids...)