Replacing power A/C cables on power amps [Archive]

Rycher

09-04-2004, 06:57 AM

I've heard all the debates about cables before - more than I care to remember. If you are of the opinion that cables do not make a difference, please post elsewhere.

I'm the kind of guy who believes that every link in the chain will make a difference in what you eventually see and hear. Any individual change will probably be a small and minute change, but in the end, if everything in the chain is top notch, then so will your audio and video.

With that in mind I'm looking to see if anyone has had any experience with replacing the cheap "lamp-cord" 18 guage A/C cables of some equipment (namely power amplifiers) with higher quality cables like those from Monster Cable, or even a heavy duty extension cord. My amplifiers are big, powerful DENON monoblocks, but why the decided to attach a 16 guage lamp cord for power is beyond me. I'm thinking of upgrading it (I'll do it anyway, I just want opinions, thoughts, and comments) to one from Monster Cable like the model 300 or 400. Why MC? I know they're expensive and have high mark-ups, but I like their styling and since these cords are visible in my system, a "pretty" cable is prefferred. But I also want a high quality cable too. Anyone have any experience with these MC power cables?

woodman

09-04-2004, 08:08 AM

Let me get this straight here ... what you're saying is "... my mind's made up - don't try to confuse me with facts". Correct? Well then, I guess there's not much point in my trying to un-confuse you, so I won't. But, when you say that "I'm the kind of guy who believes that every link in the chain will make a difference in what you eventually see and hear" - you must be made aware of the basic electronic truth that the A-C power cord for any electronic component or device is not "in the chain" at all. So, ...

... if you like the appearance of some expensive power cord, and think that it makes your system look more "serious" and/or attractive in some way - and you have excess cash just lying around that you're anxious to get rid of, then fine - go for it.

... but, if you're expecting some sonic improvement - FUGGITABOUDIT.

cam

09-04-2004, 08:38 AM

And while you are replacing your power cord with a big beefy good looking monter cable product, you mine aswell rip down all your drywall and replace and expose all your wire right to your fuse box. Use some real good looking wire so you can impress everybody that comes over.

Rycher

09-04-2004, 08:45 AM

I know, I know. Probably like 90% of the publics consensus' is that power cables - or should I say ALL cables - don't make a difference. Believe me, I've heard all sorts of theories, read tests, and seen graphs, etc. But I guess if someone is convinced it will do no good, then chances are they will hear nothing. But at the same time, being as I have a Baechlor's degree in electronics, I am fully aware of the effects of current on electronics. For instance: no electrician will wire a home with 18 guage romex. Why? Because it can't deliver the current. On that same thought, the connection does not end at the wall plug, it ends at the equipments circuit board. A smaller diameter cable will restrict, to a degree, the current being fed to the electronics. Granted it may only be a small amount of restriction, but in keeping with the logic that every link in the chain is important, should'nt we treat cables with the same regard as components? If a component, say a video source, is designed to operate at it's specification at 120 volts AC, what happens when the voltage drops below that point? Well, we all know what happens - picture blooming, high pitched whine on bright scenes. Sure, equipment has some sort of voltage regulation built in, but when the difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard, we can see and hear the result.

So in not restricting A/C current at the plug, but delivering it in abundance to the components, you will keep the components working in tip-top shape, thus performing at their peak. It seems almost every recording studio knows the importance of high quality cables because they all use them. Where as the audiophile world seems to always reject them. I believe they can make a difference because I probably have a better understanding of electronics (because of my schooling) and because I've heard first hand the difference they can make (although I've never tested the AC effect). But regardless, yeah, you're right. My mind is made up. I will be swapping them out. I am just looking for opinions from people who have done this before. And on a different note. why does everyone get all huffy-puffy when someone talks about "prettying-up" their cables? We spend hundreds of dollars on racks, and cabinetry, we add lights to show off the equipment, we decorate a room to make full use of the visual impact of the components. But why, when one talks about cables, does the conversation turn into a feeding frenzy for flaming? Part of being an audiophile is not just experimenting with different components to achieve a higher level, but also with the cables, and speaker wires, and racks, and shelves, and so on. I'm just curious because in most other boards people have been "banished" just for bringing up a question like this.

Please let's keep this civil and open-minded. Thanks

markw

09-04-2004, 09:32 AM

...where never is heard a discouraging word. You post some interesting statements that are hard to argue with on a subjective basis.

"If you are of the opinion that cables do not make a difference, please post elsewhere."

Yep you're in the right place. Reinforcment is what you will get. Any disagreement would involve a little technical discussion and that is not allowed here. If you are really interested in both sides, then you might want to pose this query in the Audio Lab, where both sides can be aired without fear of reprisal.

For convience sake, I'll repost this (and a link to it here) in that forum should you choose to explore that route.

"But I guess if someone is convinced it will do no good, then chances are they will hear nothing."

Please be aware that this just may be the sharpest double edged sword in the arsenal. Handle it with extreme caution.

"Sure, equipment has some sort of voltage regulation built in, but when the difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard, we can see and hear the result."

Again, this is a statement of a technical nature. The logical response to this would involve one simple sentence but that is not allowed in this forum. Although it seems to support your wishes for better sound, you might get some serious, well thought out rebuttals from experienced techies on the previously mentioned forum.

To attempt to use technical terms w/o fear of technical rebuttal is to simply use this forum as a bully pulpit. Now, wether or not that is the intenet here is still under evaluation.

"And on a different note. why does everyone get all huffy-puffy when someone talks about "prettying-up" their cables?"

Nobody gets huffy about "prettying-up" cables. Eyebrows are raised, however, when it's implied that it makes an audiable difference which may or may not be the case. See the next paragraph for more on this subject. Again, for serious rebuttals, please post this in the Audio Lab where any differing opinions are not hobbled by the rules here.

"Part of being an audiophile is not just experimenting with different components to achieve a higher level, but also with the cables, and speaker wires, and racks, and shelves, and so on."

Actually, on the whole I agree with statement save for one word. "Experimenting", which implies some sort of controls when testing to either prove or disprove a theory. Now, if casual listening is all it takes for you then that's fine, but to call it an experiment is a misnomer.

"I believe they can make a difference because I probably have a better understanding of electronics (because of my schooling) and because I've heard first hand the difference they can make (although I've never tested the AC effect)."

Beliefs are a good thing. Attempting to see if these beliefs are valid would take some experimentation, and this was covered in the previous paragraph. But, be aware that many other people here have some serious schooling as well and quite a few years of experience in the fiield as well. Many have opinions that you might not agree with. If you wish to share your beliefs with thei knowledge and experience, try that other forum. If not, you are merely preaching to the choir.

But, I think the most telling statement is from your second post.

"I know they're expensive and have high mark-ups, but I like their styling and since these cords are visible in my system, a "pretty" cable is prefferred. "

...I most certainly can't and won't argue with that.

I you want unquestioning approval of your statements and reinforcement of your beliefs with no dissenting opinions, then either this forum or http://audioasylum.com will serve you well.

If you want serious discussion, try the Audio Lab or perhaps other forums such as http://www.audioholics.com.

As promised, here's the link to this response in the Audio Lab.
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?p=50090#post50090

...enjoy

woodman

09-04-2004, 10:33 AM

But at the same time, being as I have a Baechlor's degree in electronics ...

Sorry fella, but this statement smacks of misrepresentation to put it mildly but succinctly. If you indeed had such a degree, you would not make some of the ridiculous statements that you did in this latest post. None of which have any basis in electronic facts as I've come to know them, having been working in the field for better than 60 years.

... and finally:

Please let's keep this civil and open-minded. Thanks

Civility is good ... open-mindedness is good as well. But it would appear that your mind is quite closed (and erroneously so) on the subject of AC power cords.

Rycher

09-04-2004, 12:01 PM

In response to Woodman: This was just the type of response I wanted to avoid. I asked a decent, civil, and legitamate question and recieved insult from you. I wanted a discussion about these cables from people who may have actually used them. It seems I will get no discussion here. Let's just close this thread.

cam

09-04-2004, 01:33 PM

Rycher

09-04-2004, 02:58 PM

Hey Rycher, I was just playing with you. If your cables are visible then go for some good looking cables. Myself, my cables are out of site as best as I could get them out of site. To me, my components are on display, not my cables. Just how do you have your system set up where your power cords are so visible. My last house I did not have a plug-in in a good spot so I got my electrician buddy to install one where I could hook-up everything directly behind my system. To me, if you have speaker cables and power cords visible, that just doesn't give it that finished (quality) look.

Hey Cam, thanks for the honest reply. Actually, my components are in a wood tower type of furniture. None of the equipment sits right up to the back wall, including the speakers. When someone walks by, or up to look at the equipment, they can"peak around" very easily to see the rear. I have seen some do-it-yourself projects where you can dress up the speaker cables real inexpensively and make them look like they cost several hundred dollars. I'll take that route for the speaker cables. But for the power amps A/C cable, I really do believe that changing out the small lamp-cord power wire to something a little more beefier will help. After all, the house wireing is 12 guage solid conductor romex. I feel that to transfer everything that ends at the wall plug, the power cord should at least be of the same gauge - don't ya think? I could just as well use a heavy duty extension cord, cut the cable in half, and solder that to the amps circuit board. But my amps are pretty nice, I figured I 'd not take the cheesey way out and just jump in for the ride. I know it's an expense, but oh well, that's half the fun, i guess. I'll let you guys know if there really is a difference. I'm guessing the difference will be in power dilivery - maybe while watching a movie. Still, has anyone have any experience doing this?

FLZapped

09-04-2004, 03:14 PM

I've heard all the debates about cables before - more than I care to remember. If you are of the opinion that cables do not make a difference, please post elsewhere.

No, I think I'll post right here.

I'm the kind of guy who believes that every link in the chain will make a difference in what you eventually see and hear.

Sounds like a personal problem to me.

With that in mind I'm looking to see if anyone has had any experience with replacing the cheap "lamp-cord" 18 guage A/C cables of some equipment (namely power amplifiers) with higher quality cables like those from Monster Cable, or even a heavy duty extension cord. My amplifiers are big, powerful DENON monoblocks, but why the decided to attach a 16 guage lamp cord for power is beyond me. I'm thinking of upgrading it (I'll do it anyway, I just want opinions, thoughts, and comments) to one from Monster Cable like the model 300 or 400. Why MC? I know they're expensive and have high mark-ups, but I like their styling and since these cords are visible in my system, a "pretty" cable is prefferred. But I also want a high quality cable too. Anyone have any experience with these MC power cables?

Gee, had you started with this paragraph and dispensed with the hyperbole, you might have gotten a better responce.

-Bruce
(In a marathon with Frances)

Tony_Montana

09-04-2004, 03:19 PM

Hi Rycher

You said that you want to replace your 16 gauge wire on the Denon, because it does not deliver current in "abundance" to the component.

Since you said you have a degree in electronics, lets do some calculations.

16 gauge wire have 4.2 ohm resistance/1000feet which comes to about .004 ohm/foot. So for 6 feet of [16 gauge] power cord, the resistance will be .02 ohm, and since you have one pair of wires (return current resistance), total resistance will be about .05 ohms

suppose you swap it out with 10 gauge power cord. Total resistance for [a pair] 6 foot length will be 0.012 ohm.

As you can see, the resistance in 16 gauge wire is also non existent...so saying that stock power cord can not deliver current in abundance is not true.

If we go one step further and calculate voltage lose because of wire resistance (since you said voltage difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard), one will note that voltage drop difference between 16 gauge and 10 gauge wire is only 0.4 volts...actually 0.38 volts :D

Using 10 amp as example (amp is drawing 1000 watt):

For 16 gauge wire:10amp x 0.05 ohms= 0.5 volts
For 10 gauge wire:10amp x 0.012 ohms= 0.12 volts

So as you can see, OEM stock power cord can deliver power to component, and that is going at full 10 amp throttle :)

FLZapped

09-04-2004, 03:44 PM

But at the same time, being as I have a Baechlor's degree in electronics, I am fully aware of the effects of current on electronics. For instance: no electrician will wire a home with 18 guage romex. Why? Because it can't deliver the current.

Wow, what a simplistic explaination, especially for someone who is degreed. Are you not aware of the magnitude of scale difference? To start with, the run in your wall is significantly longer and the total current the wire must deliver in it's circuit requirement is in excess of what your amp is going to require.

Therefore, someone with your education should recognize the obvious differences in the two systems and not make such a mistake in this type of comparison.

On that same thought, the connection does not end at the wall plug, it ends at the equipments circuit board. A smaller diameter cable will restrict, to a degree, the current being fed to the electronics. Granted it may only be a small amount of restriction, but in keeping with the logic that every link in the chain is important, should'nt we treat cables with the same regard as components? If a component, say a video source, is designed to operate at it's specification at 120 volts AC, what happens when the voltage drops below that point? Well, we all know what happens - picture blooming, high pitched whine on bright scenes. Sure, equipment has some sort of voltage regulation built in, but when the difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard, we can see and hear the result.

Of course there will be some restriction, are you saying that the engineers didn't ensure that your product would work within it's specs with the power cord they designed for it? Now since you claim that there is an audible difference, I would like to see all your test data. Being a degreed individual, you are no doubt trained in testing methodology, right?

So in not restricting A/C current at the plug, but delivering it in abundance to the components, you will keep the components working in tip-top shape, thus performing at their peak.

Really, where's your data to support this claim? Can you prove by your implication that your equipment is actually lasting longer as a result?

It seems almost every recording studio knows the importance of high quality cables because they all use them.

All? Really. This I'd REALLY like to see.

Where as the audiophile world seems to always reject them.

Seems you have your facts backward. I can go to any number of audiophile sites and read in many audiophile rags that these crazy claims are made, yet they are all but devoid in the professional publications. You can go to Samash, Sweetwater, Fullcompass, or any number of sites that sell professinal equipment and nowhere will you see aftermarket "performance" power cords for sale.

I believe they can make a difference because I probably have a better understanding of electronics (because of my schooling) and because I've heard first hand the difference they can make (although I've never tested the AC effect).

Wait a minute. You say "you believe" because of your schooling in science. I think you need to request a refund, because it is quite obvious you have no rigorous testing to back up your extrordinary claims.

But regardless, yeah, you're right. My mind is made up. I will be swapping them out.

Good for you! I cerainly hope you get many hours of enjoyment from them.

I am just looking for opinions from people who have done this before. And on a different note.

Then why don't you knock off the hyperbole and just get to the point.

why does everyone get all huffy-puffy when someone talks about "prettying-up" their cables?

Probably because of the statements you have made to "pretty-up" your supposed request.
You need to take out the flamebait.

Part of being an audiophile is not just experimenting with different components to achieve a higher level,

That's fine. However, many just make changes on a lark, without any real investigation as to whether or not it will actually make a difference. They check their brains and reasoning at the door. Quite frankly, you seem to be one of them, especially considering the schooling you have touted.

Please let's keep this civil and open-minded. Thanks

Then start with a more civil tone next time and leave the flamebait at home.

-Bruce
(Tired of this damned storm already)

E-Stat

09-04-2004, 07:54 PM

With that in mind I'm looking to see if anyone has had any experience with replacing the cheap "lamp-cord" 18 guage A/C cables of some equipment (namely power amplifiers) with higher quality cables like those from Monster Cable, or even a heavy duty extension cord.
Despite your request, I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded. In discussions I've had with Luke Manley and Judd Barber, they provide a basic 16 gauge IEC cord with their amps knowing that many of their customers will upgrade them with better sounding aftermarket ones. My GamuT CD-1 didn't come with a cord at all, although one is provided upon request. I favor JPS Labs cords (AC+ and Digital), have a friend with Kimber Palladians (I'm trying to get him back over to compare those to mine), and Judd Barber likes the Elrods. While I use a Monster HTS1000 on my turntable, I haven't used their dedicated cords.

You should not have trouble locating a dealer who will provide an in home trial with potentially only shipping costs at risk.

rw

Rycher

09-04-2004, 08:49 PM

Despite your request, I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded. In discussions I've had with Luke Manley and Judd Barber, they provide a basic 16 gauge IEC cord with their amps knowing that many of their customers will upgrade them with better sounding aftermarket ones. My GamuT CD-1 didn't come with a cord at all, although one is provided upon request. I favor JPS Labs cords (AC+ and Digital), have a friend with Kimber Palladians (I'm trying to get him back over to compare those to mine), and Judd Barber likes the Elrods. While I use a Monster HTS1000 on my turntable, I haven't used their dedicated cords.

You should not have trouble locating a dealer who will provide an in home trial with potentially only shipping costs at risk.

rw

Hello E-stat, thanks for the answer. Yeah, about the "non-experiential theoriticians" jumping in with their unwanted responses, it don't bother me - every group has it's share of losers that no one responds to. I just ignore them, as I'm sure most others here do too. About the JPS Labs cords, how did they change the sound? Was it subtle? My local dealer only carries Monster Cable power cords, so I'll probably` go that route. What other equipment do you have that you've swapped out cords to? Any more suggestions?

Thanks!
t y

E-Stat

09-06-2004, 06:37 AM

About the JPS Labs cords, how did they change the sound? Was it subtle?
In general, I find cable upgrades to be a collection of "just noticeable differences". No individual swap in my system has been "dramatic". Collectively, however, I've found the cumulative effect of several JNDs to constitute a decidedly ND. With my system, better cables create a blacker, quieter background from which more detail can be discerned. It's not as though you're going to say "wow" after listening to the first thirty seconds of music. I do find, however, that most of my recordings, even just good ones, will reveal more of their content. Subtle details and harmonic shadings are rendered more evident. A friend of mine brought over a new amp along with a Kimber Palladian cord. The Kimber is a bit unusual looking with a "sausage" attached to the cord. We listened to the amp first with the Kimber and switched to my cords. Then switched back. The Kimber clearly resolved more detail with that amp. That was the most significant difference I've heard with PCs and it had nothing to do with power transfer - the Kimber was actually somewhat thinner at 10 gauge. I've asked him to return on another occasion with a pair of cords to try out on my tube amps.

What other equipment do you have that you've swapped out cords to?
Sources, like CDP, turntable, and preamp. Contrary to the "miles and miles" of wire theory, the source of some RFI induced noise in a system is created by some of the components themselves. I use the filtered Digital JPS Labs cord that suppresses noise going back into the wall circuit. Using a nice Belden sourced 14 gauge cord with Shurter plugs and a Monster HTS-1000 on my turntable, the noise level is now virtually nonexistent even with my low output MC cartridge.

Any more suggestions?
I can also highly recommend room treatments, especially bass traps for smoothing out the low end and improving imaging. There are a few DIY recipes available for the popular and effective ASC product. Also, I noticed that your Amazings are pretty close to the back wall. I find that all bipolars like to "breathe" with more room around and behind them. I have the luxury of placing mine about seven feet into the room.

rw

Geoffcin

09-06-2004, 07:11 AM

Rycher

09-06-2004, 08:06 AM

From his post it was quite clear that he wasn't looking for an argument about cables, just some personal experience from somebody who's replaced them. Still, you guys can't resist tearing into him. From his responses it looks like it doesn't bother him too much so I'm not going to do anything. But, if you take people to task for asking questions on the forum I'm going to moderate it. This forum is for people to be able to ask questions without getting taken to task.

Thanks Geoffcin and E-sTAT, I appreciate the responses. E-Stat, your response was was I was looking for - honest unbiased opionion on cables which you have tried and heard first hand. Thanks again!

Geoffcin, thanks for stepping in. I'll admit I was getting a bit disheartened about posting any more on this board for fear that each one of my posts would be dissected and worded all out of proportion. I know entertainment gear is a passion for many people and can cause heated debates, but debates are just fine as they are the foundation for a forum anyway. But when it turns into a bash and ridicule for asking a question, or because someone doesn't "know" as much as the next guy, etc., well, then most people I'm sure would rather just enjoy their hobby alone rather than post and share. And in the end it's just the forum that suffers because all new potential members will just stay away, or be pushed away. I try to avoid such arrogance from members as much as the next guy, but I am glad when a moderator steps in to pull me from the clutches of these snakes.

Anyway, thanks again. I se this forum is well moderated and I will enjoy my stay here. Thanks for the comments!

markw

09-06-2004, 09:06 AM

Rycher

09-06-2004, 10:25 AM

Sounds like a personal insult to me. Isn't that against one of the forum rules?

Simply put, while you've chosen the blue pill, others should be aware that there is a red pill as well that thay may wish to avail themselves of.

Actually, I didn't chosse a "pill", Morpheus. I asked a question but recieved flack for it. My words were diliberately twisted and taken out of context, as was evidenced by 2 moderators having to step in. If you feel my referral to "snakes" was directed towards you, then maybe you have a complex? Regardless, I recieved my answer from 2 smart, and kind people, so now I will not visit this particular thread again. I wish more people here were just as kind.

Geoffcin

09-06-2004, 10:27 AM

Sounds like a personal insult to me. Isn't that against one of the forum rules?

Simply put, while you've chosen the blue pill, others should be aware that there is a red pill as well that thay may wish to avail themselves of.

If it was a personal attack then it would be. I've deleted some of those already, but it was more rhetorical, as in; "save me from this nest of vipers"

In any case nobody wants to see anybody's post get deleted, and if you noticed, no ones has.

FLZapped

09-06-2004, 11:40 AM

From his post it was quite clear that he wasn't looking for an argument about cables.....

Bull. I think I pointed it out quite clearly that he was. Touting his superior knowledge becaue he had an "edumacation."

This forum is for people to be able to ask questions without getting taken to task.

People get taken to task when they make ridiculous statements and claims. It was easily avoided on his part before the first keystroke: but he chose not to.

-Bruce

FLZapped

09-06-2004, 11:43 AM

Thanks Geoffcin and E-sTAT, I appreciate the responses. E-Stat, your response was was I was looking for - honest unbiased opionion on cables which you have tried and heard first hand.

Unbiased? Every opinion is biased, wouldn't be an opinion otherwise.

-Bruce

FLZapped

09-06-2004, 11:46 AM

Despite your request, I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded.

HAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHHAHA, Now That's Funny!

-Bruce

:p

markw

09-06-2004, 01:21 PM

I asked a question but recieved flack for it..No, you were called to task when you insinuated that your edjumacation gave you an edge on the "facts" in this matter when what you were stating were nowhere near facts. They were beliefs and, as a man of science, you should be expected to know the difference.

No matter, Jim Jones was well schooled in the Good Book but look where that led him and his followers. Now, had some kind soul set him straight earlier, there is no telling what good that charisma might have done.

My words were diliberately twisted and taken out of context, as was evidenced by 2 moderators having to step in. .No, You threw the gauntlet. Simple as that. The moderaters would rather these things never happened but when you threw out your edjumacation and the psuedo technical stuff to bolster your, errr..., credibility?, it's only fair that it opened the floodgates for those that actually do have education and experience in these matters rebut you, lest some be led astray by fairy tales. To deny that would lead to a one sided religious forum where serious discussion was verbotten.

No, you were merely disabused as to where the real facts involved ran contrary to your theories.

If you feel my referral to "snakes" was directed towards you, then maybe you have a complex?No, no complex. I've been around long enough to recognize a slap when I feel it. I'm just disappointed that you didn't have the honesty to owe up to it, but, then again....

Regardless, I recieved my answer from 2 smart, and kind people, so now I will not visit this particular thread again. I wish more people here were just as kind..Actually, you received good answers from many more than two people and ignored the sage advice of another to look for the real truth elsewhere.. You only chose to believe two because they simply agreed with your assumptions.

Geoffcin

09-06-2004, 04:34 PM

Bull. I think I pointed it out quite clearly that he was. Touting his superior knowledge becaue he had an "edumacation."

People get taken to task when they make ridiculous statements and claims. It was easily avoided on his part before the first keystroke: but he chose not to.

-Bruce

This is a moderated forum, and we respect other people's point-of-views even if we don't agree with them. It's not your business to take anyone here to task for ANYTHING they post. If you consider it's your business then that can be easily remedied I assure you.
I've had just about enough of this picking peoples posts apart, and I would recommend that you don't do it anymore.

FLZapped

09-06-2004, 05:18 PM

This is a moderated forum, and we respect other people's point-of-views even if we don't agree with them.

Right, well, I did disagree with them. I believe I have the right to post an opposing point of view, or ask for clarification of claims made, especially those that fly in the face of known fact. This wouldn't be a forum without opposing points of view.

It's not your business to take anyone here to task for ANYTHING they post. If you consider it's your business then that can be easily remedied I assure you.
{/quote]

Go ahead, threaten me. As a moderator, I think you would have been more astute in spotting flamebait when you see it. And as for what is my "business' if I see something I don't agree with, especially when it is made with the attitude of the poster's, or flies in the face of well established fact, I'm going to challenge it and challenge it thoroughly.

[quote]I've had just about enough of this picking peoples posts apart, and I would recommend that you don't do it anymore.

I'll do it every time someone comes along with his attitude that he knows more than anyone else or thinks he is the only one with an education here. As I pointed out, he could have left out all the hyperbole and asked his question straight up and not gotten the responses that he did.

What about your fellow moderator and HIS completely unnecessary inflammatory comment:

"I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded."

You guys need to clean up your own doorstep.

I also don't see where you did anything about the posters use of "snakes" when refering to others on this board. In fact, you defended his blatent insult of myself and other on this board.

You're being a bunch of hypocrites, just like Jon Risch, moderator on the Cable Asylum at AA.

-Bruce
(Seriously doubting any of this will be considered.....)
:mad:

Geoffcin

09-06-2004, 05:50 PM

Right, well, I did disagree with them. I believe I have the right to post an opposing point of view, or ask for clarification of claims made, especially those that fly in the face of known fact. This wouldn't be a forum without opposing points of view.

You're being a bunch of hypocrites, just like Jon Risch, moderator on the Cable Asylum at AA.

-Bruce
(Seriously doubting any of this will be considered.....)
:mad:

No one wants to censor anyone here. A little more civility is all that's required. This thread was attacked from the get-go. You've been on this BB for some time, and I would expect that you also want to be treated with courtesy too, since you've picked out a few instances that bothered you. I want to see that this place is good for ANYONE to post without getting ambushed because of their point of view, no matter how arrogant you think they come across.

My advise is that we end this thread here. It's quite obvious that you have succeeded in chasing away the poster from this thread, let's hope you haven't managed to chase him & others who may have been lurking from the entire AR forums.

FLZapped

09-06-2004, 06:18 PM

No one wants to censor anyone here. A little more civility is all that's required. This thread was attacked from the get-go.

Again, you ignore how the thread started, and again, you ignore that I pointed out he could have gotten an entirely different response had he left the hyperbole at home.(others made the same observation)

You've been on this BB for some time, and I would expect that you also want to be treated with courtesy too, since you've picked out a few instances that bothered you. I want to see that this place is good for ANYONE to post without getting ambushed because of their point of view, no matter how arrogant you think they come across.

So far, I have not seen it from this moderating group, there has been an ongoing string of insults hurled at me and others, if not directly, indirectly, and no apologly from those in charge who made them has come forth. Not that it would matter at this point in time.

I'll point out once again, it wasn't just his attitutude, it was his horrendous inaccuracies: and I wasn't the only one to spot them. Then he went on to compound the problem with his condescending; "I have an education" routine, followed by further inacurracies, which a truely educated person in his declared field would not have made.

My advise is that we end this thread here. It's quite obvious that you have succeeded in chasing away the poster from this thread, let's hope you haven't managed to chase him & others who may have been lurking from the entire AR forums.

Or maybe he was just throwing bombs as an antagonist....and you can forget the guilt trip, that won't work either. Besides, it is quite apparent how many of the regulars the new moderators have alienated and chased off already.

-Bruce
(Officer, I'd like to report a hit and run....)

Rycher

09-06-2004, 06:33 PM

cam

09-06-2004, 07:11 PM

Actually, I posted a question, plain and simple. There was no "attitude" given, and no "arrogance" was implied. It was nothing but a simple question geared to the people who had experience in the matter at subject. You're first line in your response to my question was an insult and a personal attack on me. "Condencending attitude"? It was quite clear that the only one around here with a condencending attitude is yourself, along with the 2 other village _ _ _ _ _ _ . In fact, you guys could'nt leave well enough alone and had the audacity to go and open a new thread to talk and make fun of MY questions - where you guys called me "poor fool". You say that YOU are mad and were insulted?!? I'm sorry, but I got to differ with you on that one. This was my first posting on this forum, and it will most certainly be the last. It was obvious from the first response fromyou 3 *#$%&@@! that you all conspired to run out the new guy, and you've succeded. I wonder how many more potential forumers you've cleaned up on in the past.
I don't think anybody is trying to run you off these boards. Take a day to relax, and feel free to ask or answer questions in the furure. As to your original post, I personally have no data to substaniate an answer, but I would honestly think that manufactures have done all the homework on their products to find a suitable and more then adequate power cord for their products. Example, my denon 1804 has a power consumption rating of 4.5 amps. Not a particularily heavy draw on power, hence the very average power cord. My paradigm pw-2200 draws 750 watts or 6.25 amps and it has only a marginally bigger power cord. From all the components that I have seen, as the power requirements of the comopnents increases, so does the size of the power cord. That being said, all manufactures are building an adequate power cord for any given product. But lets say that the denon 5803 has the same size power cord as my 1804. That would be a situation where I would scond guess the engineering of the power cord on the 5803. This is not the case though, the 5803 has a beefy power cord already.

Mwalsdor_cscc_edu

09-06-2004, 07:58 PM

FLZapped

09-07-2004, 02:46 AM

Actually, I posted a question, plain and simple. There was no "attitude" given, and no "arrogance" was implied. It was nothing but a simple question geared to the people who had experience in the matter at subject.

This has alrady been covered thoroughly.

This was my first posting on this forum, and it will most certainly be the last. It was obvious from the first response fromyou 3 *#$%&@@! that you all conspired to run out the new guy, and you've succeded. I wonder how many more potential forumers you've cleaned up on in the past.

Right, I see you're still here throwing bombs. I really don't care if you stay or leave, that is wholly your call. However, keep throwing your hyperbolic bombs and you will be challenged.

-Bruce
(beginning to smell a moderators shill......)

Monstrous Mike

09-07-2004, 07:05 AM

Despite your request, I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded.

rw
The way I see it is that you non-theoretical experimentationalists have observational results that have no control or scientific method and have completely subjective results. And further there is no theory provided to support these results. And this is what you base recommendations on?

Perhaps it's time that you provided some theory to explain your observations. And also, maybe you should look again at the method you use for your experimentation.

No, wait a second. It is the non-theoretical experimentationalists that are demanding that the non-experiential theoriticians come up with the theory to explain their observations. Did I get that right or am I missing something?

Monstrous Mike

09-07-2004, 07:25 AM

Granted it may only be a small amount of restriction, but in keeping with the logic that every link in the chain is important, should'nt we treat cables with the same regard as components? If a component, say a video source, is designed to operate at it's specification at 120 volts AC, what happens when the voltage drops below that point? Well, we all know what happens - picture blooming, high pitched whine on bright scenes. Sure, equipment has some sort of voltage regulation built in, but when the difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard, we can see and hear the result.
Please explain how a power cord can solve a fluctuating voltage problem.

Resident Loser

09-07-2004, 07:29 AM

...number one, the guy sounds like a red-herring to me...someone who has been scripted, mouthing all the things the mods have claimed the poor little newbies face by posting here...OOO... they chased me away...WAAHH!!!...I'm never comin' back!!! This after he says anyone with a different opinion need not respond...I mean that's just askin' for it...especially when wearing one's ignorance or inexperience on their sleeve.

Nobody knows everything...but certainly there are regular contributors who know one he!! of alot more the this fellow. The guy shows up like he just learned Ohm's Law and makes ridiculous comparisons...The size difference of the line cord conductors is EL Zippo in real terms...once it gets into the power supply it will be rectified and regulated to meet the component designers requirements...period...and BTW, those same designers spec'd out the pc based on those design parameters...

Those IEC cords are, and have been since the outset, a manufacturing economy, pure and simple...it has become another a "cottage industry" catering to an affluent and equally gullible crowd...how else would you account for a mfr. whose name translates into "nothingness"(and puh-leese don't give me the mystical "nothingness" explanation) and uses(or did use) a proprietary substance called "Stardust"?...BTW, hi MikE...

He wants audio jewelry, well, sauszeech his own, I'll settle for nice high-tech, avant-garde, basic black...goes with everything...

And in case inquiring minds want to know, all my gear is vintage...back in the days when wire was wire(come to think of it, it still is!!!) and predates the "world sourcing" era...all fixed cords...

jimHJJ(...as it should be...)

Resident Loser

09-07-2004, 07:36 AM

...or do you prefer Lord-E...

How can a power cord that supplies your TTs motor have any effect on the audio loop?

jimHJJ(...just wunnerin'...)

E-Stat

09-07-2004, 07:39 AM

The way I see it...
Folks, waddya' say we move the extended discussion to The Lab?

MM, I'll be happy to respond to your thoughts there where that kind of discussion belongs. markw has already opened a thread.

rw

Mwalsdor_cscc_edu

09-07-2004, 09:03 AM

"Oh Mr. Static...

<HR color=#cccccc SIZE=1>...or do you prefer Lord-E..."

Jim, you're killing Me!

ToddB

09-08-2004, 01:19 AM

Hi Rycher.

First, welcome to AR. I apologize for the shameful reception you received in this thread, but the new administrator and moderators here are in the process of reversing YEARS of a culture on this board where listening is ridiculed, and scientific quantification is held up as the be-all and end-all of the audio experience. Had I visited the board over the last few days and found your thread earlier, I probably would have deleted a number of posts that are in clear violation of the new posting policy. If you can stick with us as we work through this transition, we'd love to have you stay.

Anyway, unlike those in the peanut gallery who attacked your premise without having any personal experience of their own, I HAVE replaced power cords on some of my equipment. So far I've only upgraded from stock cords to Volex 17604 cords, which cost me all of $6 apiece (that's NOT a typo, they were SIX dollars each), but the change was quite beneficial. I didn't hear much of a difference on my integrated amp, but I'm guessing the Volex on my powered sub must have either absorbed a bunch of hash that the sub amp had been injecting back into the power line, or it prevented noise from radiating out of the cord itself, because there were obvious sonic improvements well above the frequency range that the sub operates in. The difference was so startling that I removed the Volex, put the stock cord back in, then swapped them again, doing listening comparisons after each change, just to make sure that I was actually hearing what made absolutely no sense to me at the time. I have since read comments from other people who had similar experiences with reducing noise throughout their system after they replaced the power cord on their sub, so I take it that noisy sub amps aren't that uncommon. The 17604 is 3x14AWG, and I used it because of all the favorable comments it's received at Audio Asylum. So, if you want to try a relatively low-cost upgrade and see how it works for you, before you go and potentially spend a lot more money, this is certainly an available option.

FLZapped

09-08-2004, 05:43 AM

Hi Rycher.

First, welcome to AR. I apologize for the shameful reception you received in this thread, but the new administrator and moderators here are in the process of reversing YEARS of a culture on this board where listening is ridiculed, and scientific quantification is held up as the be-all and end-all of the audio experience. Had I visited the board over the last few days and found your thread earlier, I probably would have deleted a number of posts that are in clear violation of the new posting policy. If you can stick with us as we work through this transition, we'd love to have you stay.

Then people like you come along and lob more bombs, as if that is going to make it better, besides the holier than thou attitude the poster demonstrated in his opening posts, which I guess you just can't see, along with the myopic moderators. (yes, I am deliberatly being harsh)

Your characterizations are incorrect. Listening was never ridiculed. Only those who took listening as factual evidence(as opposed to opinion) and tried to pawn it off as such were challenged. Furthermore, on more than one occasion those who take stock in scientific method said if there were any verifiable evidence contrary to their current position, they would have no problem changing their minds, this writer included.

I agree that it wasn't always pretty, but then I doubt the Constitutional Congress was either.....

Anyway, unlike those in the peanut gallery

Ad hominem attacks, hmmm, I guess that makes your post a violation too, no?

...without having any personal experience of their own,

Gross assumption on your part.

I guess it's okay for you experiential types to attack, denegrade, and mischaraterize yet call it your opinoin, but when those of us who have a different viewpoint challenge gross factual mischaraterizations, that is somehow not okay. Lots of hypocricy going on here lately.

But then, considering dissenting points of view are bad for the sponsoring company's business, I can see why there is such an effort to disallow debate, or stuff it away in a corner, hoping no one will notice.

-Bruce
(Sounds like the Democratic Party around here....)

hertz

10-01-2004, 04:45 AM

I think most Naysayers are people who have never tried a power cord or conditioner in their system. Although I do not own either of these I have heard some really high end systems setup in dedicated listening rooms which shows a really positive response to these tweaks. I have a group of audiophile friends some whom are using DIY power cords and conditioners.They are made by a very talented and innovative engineer friend.Some of the changes I heard are quiter background, very foccused sound, further refinement highs and tighter lows etc...It makes the experience much more musical. I would not suggest you to try these unless you have a very good listening room with speakers setup accurate to at least quarter of an inch.You won't hear much difference otherwise because you have other big problems like room echo, resonance, bass boom etc..which will mask the changes.

FLZapped

10-01-2004, 09:22 AM

hertz

10-04-2004, 04:13 AM

First of all I am based in india now. I do not represent anybody. I have a group of audiophile friends in my city and I have extensively listened to some of the systems I like. I am not investing in any of those because I will be shifting to my own appartment (staying rented now) and I am planing a dedicated listening room.I know how much difference it makes if you have properly setup system in a good listening room.It is sheer magic. This audiophile engineer friend spend almost an year to find the perfect place for his speakers and the system never ceases to amaze me with its sheer realism. It shocks me sometimes. He makes these in his free time and they are available for a song compared to similar products in the US market.
In his setup I can easily make out diferences with power cords, conditioners, cd players, spk cables, interconnects, isolation platforms etc...It is as clear as day and night. we all know because we all experience it everytime we listen.

Monstrous Mike

10-04-2004, 09:18 AM

I believe they can make a difference because I probably have a better understanding of electronics (because of my schooling) and because I've heard first hand the difference they can make (although I've never tested the AC effect).
Could you please describe the test method you used to conclude that any difference you heard was directly the cause of the cabling? And how exactly did your understanding of electronics help you with your conclusion?

Monstrous Mike

10-04-2004, 09:25 AM

Actually, I posted a question, plain and simple. There was no "attitude" given, and no "arrogance" was implied.
From your first post:

"If you are of the opinion that cables do not make a difference, please post elsewhere."

From your second post:

"But at the same time, being as I have a Baechlor's degree in electronics, I am fully aware of the effects of current on electronics. "

Attitude and arrogance given and implied.

Now for some of my own attitude and arrogance. I have Master's of Electrical Engineering and since this is the audio lab and we are here to discuss matters of a technical nature, please feel free to go as in depth as you can with regard to the scientific method you used to determine your cables sounded different and I also presume you have some electronic theory to explain how this could be possible.

Monstrous Mike

10-04-2004, 09:31 AM

... where ever a dissenting word is heard! :D Leave while you're ahead, nothing here but bullies and the "proveyors of wisdom" spreading their gospel. Even when you ask nicely that you would prefer to limit the discussion to proponents of the product type look what happens. Of course, everyone is free to chime in, even when requested not to, but there's a word for that isn't there. Unless you enjoy this sort of thing I'd suggest taking similiar inquires to another site. Cheers!

MikE
Come on, MikE. Go the Outside Asylum and ask a question like: "George W. Bush is our greatest president ever. I''d like to hear all the reasons that this is true. If you don't like Bush, please don't respond." Go ahead, make that post.

And then when the hailstorm hits, your suggestion would be to simply visit a pro-Bush forum where "never a dissenting word is heard" against the bugger. Why do people keep painting <b><i>us</b></i> as closed-minded?

FLZapped

10-04-2004, 09:31 AM

It is sheer magic.

I see, that explains it. -Bruce

hertz

10-04-2004, 10:58 PM

Magic ? Have you experienced it ? I have in some perfectly setup systems. I had almost lost interest in music because of the crappy sound I used to get frim my mass market japanese crap system.I took a U-TURN after I met these guys and experienced first hand what a transparent syetem setup correctly can do. It takes a lot of effort and experimentation to achieve this. Once you acieve this, try changing any component and you will see...:))
If you think you can describe sound using some tech sheet, you are mistaken. Most tech sheets are as usefull as toilet paper. I personally know people who have changed amps, cd players, ics, spk cables umpteen times and finally reach that perfect sounding system.It is like a perfect marriage. Some things won't mate with the other even if the tech sheet says so.It will work but the sound won't be satisfying.
Could you please describe your system and tell me how you have setup your system ? What parameters did you take into consideration when you setup the system etc...

FLZapped

10-05-2004, 03:12 AM

Magic ? Have you experienced it ?

What difference does it make, I can't possibly transfer my experience to you. What works for me may be replulsive to you, and vice versa.

Having said that, plus the fact this IS the cable forum. No one in the history of the world has verifiably heard the difference between two like cables. So in this instance, it is a non-factor.

-Bruce

hertz

10-05-2004, 03:33 AM

FLZapped

10-05-2004, 05:46 AM

I replaced my 12 guage mass market OFC cable with a kimber 4PR cable on the advice of a good friend because I had a slightly dull sound when I play most audiophile grade recordings.The change is so vast that I don't touch my tone controls now when I play those recordings.

Right, but being able to make such a determination in a controlled environment is the key. Otherwise, it's just a subjective opinion.

-Bruce

ericl

10-05-2004, 12:48 PM

When I was about 10, my friend discovered that you could say "So what?!" to anything anyone says.

I think some of the characters on this board have discovered that as well.

-Eric

hertz

10-05-2004, 10:12 PM

Right, but being able to make such a determination in a controlled environment is the key. Otherwise, it's just a subjective opinion.

-Bruce

I don't know about controlled situations. But I evaluate something based on the overall musical experience.The frown on my face changing to a wide smile is enough evidence for me because it is a function of the brain reacting to something nice. The proof with the Cable is that the old one is now lying in my TRASH BIN. I have tried other cheap cables in my system but didn't find much difference. The 4pr made my day.
Some other expensive cables I tried made it still better but I can't afford them at the moment.

FLZapped

10-06-2004, 07:58 AM

I don't know about controlled situations. But I evaluate something based on the overall musical experience.The frown on my face changing to a wide smile is enough evidence for me because it is a function of the brain reacting to something nice. The proof with the Cable is that the old one is now lying in my TRASH BIN. I have tried other cheap cables in my system but didn't find much difference. The 4pr made my day.
Some other expensive cables I tried made it still better but I can't afford them at the moment.

Well, that's fine for your system and set-up. If you are indeed happy, great, but as an engineer, I think you would want an answer as to why you seemed to get such a large difference, especially when the physics are the same. *shrug*

-Bruce

FLZapped

10-06-2004, 08:00 AM

When I was about 10, my friend discovered that you could say "So what?!" to anything anyone says.

I think some of the characters on this board have discovered that as well.

-Eric

Sew a button......now that that question is answered.....

Monstrous Mike

10-06-2004, 08:07 AM

I don't know about controlled situations. But I evaluate something based on the overall musical experience.The frown on my face changing to a wide smile is enough evidence for me because it is a function of the brain reacting to something nice.
A contolled evaluation like a double blind test will ensure that your brain is not reacting favourably because it knows that the nice cable is in the system. If you <b><i>expect</b></i> Kimber to sound better than zip cord, then it likely will. If you have no knowledge of what you are listening to then this preference may disappear.

And if you believe that you can be completely objective and suppress all your emotions and expectations and forgo blind testing, then you are a medical miracle.

None of us here are amazed that you placed a Kimber cable in your system and your smile grew wider and you had a higher level of enjoyment of the sound. The problems arise when people like you say things like we are deaf, our systems are not high end, our systems are not set up properly, we are in denial, there are measurements and physics which can explain this but they haven't been discovered yet, etc..

So in the end, I don't deny that you are happy but I only suggest that you could be equally happy with a lot less money spent on questionable upgrades. As a matter of fact, take all the money spent on those dubious (in my mind) improvements and build an acoustically perfect room and that would definitely improve the sonics of your system.

musicoverall

10-06-2004, 10:17 AM

None of us here are amazed that you placed a Kimber cable in your system and your smile grew wider and you had a higher level of enjoyment of the sound. The problems arise when people like you say things like we are deaf, our systems are not high end, our systems are not set up properly, we are in denial, there are measurements and physics which can explain this but they haven't been discovered yet, etc...

A well stated objectivist viewpoint - much appreciated!

With regards to your quote above, I wouldn't state any of those things. I would ask which cables you have tried and with what components and in what kind of listening environment, however. Irrespective of the "high end" argument, it would likely yield the same null results if you used expensive Transparent cables on a Pioneer receiver as it would switching from $29/m Tara to $29 Monster on a conrad-Johnson ART preamp.

Cable differences are subtle and sometimes non-existent. I've never understood those that make claims that the differences are "night and day". And they are very system dependant. If you listen and you hear nothing, your hearing is probably fine and there simply aren't any differences with that cable in that system in that environment. The problems WE have occur when the objectivists say we are hearing things, fantasizing, we've read too many Stereophile articles, we're gullible, etc, etc.

musicoverall

10-06-2004, 10:21 AM

. No one in the history of the world has verifiably heard the difference between two like cables. -Bruce

Bruce,

What would be considered verifiably hearing a difference?

FLZapped

10-06-2004, 11:16 AM

Bruce,

What would be considered verifiably hearing a difference?

It would be a matter of using a highly documented set-up in a sensory deprived(except for aural) environment. It would also require multiple participants who could give input between a reference device and a device under test in a random fashion.

The documentation would be so that the results could be run and verified independantly.

That's the thumbnail sketch.

Having said all that, in this user's case, it may be a matter of either doing detailed measurements, if he has access to the appropriate test equipment, and then trying to determine if what he measures adds up to what he hears. Or, perhaps doing a scaled back version of the previously mentioned test methodology, just to satisfy himself. Maybe both in an attempt to root cause this apparently large discrepency between cables.

Anyway, this isn't the forum to get into these types of details, so further pursuit would require a trip to "The Audio Lab."

-Bruce

musicoverall

10-06-2004, 11:44 AM

It would be a matter of using a highly documented set-up in a sensory deprived(except for aural) environment. It would also require multiple participants who could give input between a reference device and a device under test in a random fashion.

The documentation would be so that the results could be run and verified independantly.

That's the thumbnail sketch.

Having said all that, in this user's case, it may be a matter of either doing detailed measurements, if he has access to the appropriate test equipment, and then trying to determine if what he measures adds up to what he hears. Or, perhaps doing a scaled back version of the previously mentioned test methodology, just to satisfy himself. Maybe both in an attempt to root cause this apparently large discrepency between cables.

Anyway, this isn't the forum to get into these types of details, so further pursuit would require a trip to "The Audio Lab."

-Bruce

Pardon my ignorance/incredulousness and please forgive what might be taken as antagonism, but all this to "prove" we hear something???!!? If we're already convinced we hear it, why would any of us bother with this exhaustive testing?

FLZapped

10-06-2004, 12:10 PM

Pardon my ignorance/incredulousness and please forgive what might be taken as antagonism, but all this to "prove" we hear something???!!? If we're already convinced we hear it, why would any of us bother with this exhaustive testing?

No antagonism taken.

Our perception is a convolution of sensory inputs modified by psycological factors(anticipation, expectations, mood) that may not result in what is actually happening. It's a real pain, because there is no mechanism to tell us when, or how much some other factor is influencing the final outcome.

That is why you need to try and deprive your other senses, so that your brain processes only aural signals to diminish internal processing as much as possible. Mood is a hard one to filter out, which is why you would usually do multiple repitions over a period of time and use multiple listeners - along with trying to have a pleasant environment to begin with.

For the purposes of satisfying yourself, it isn't necessary. For scientific results, it's absolutely necessary. I suppose you could find scenarios that will fall in between these extremes. Such as giving solid credibility when making a proclaimation such as "it was a night and day difference" on a "public" forum - that makes those if us more skeptical, or who have at least some experience in the realm of psychoacoustics sit up and take notice.

I suppose if the statement had been worded so that it was clearly an opinion, rather than a declarative statement, it would have not set off that alarm. An opinion is not arguable.

Clear as mud?

-Bruce

jneutron

10-06-2004, 12:21 PM

Pardon my ignorance/incredulousness and please forgive what might be taken as antagonism, but all this to "prove" we hear something???!!? If we're already convinced we hear it, why would any of us bother with this exhaustive testing?

Hmmmm..

I am "convinced" that radiol...a liquid containing radium, is a cureall for all that ails you..so, consume lots of it.

I am "convinced" that smoking is good for me.

I am "convinced" that putting a picture of myself in the freezer will make my system sound better.

I am "convinced" that a jar of rocks, well placed, will make my system sound better.

I am "convinced" that a piece of ceramic is actually a near superconductor....and works well for me.

I am "convinced" that removing the country of manufacture from a cord, and putting one labelled "made in the USA" will make the cord better...

Radiol was touted years ago as a health elixer...and killed people..smoking, same thing...but, people were "convinced" of their worth..as to the other examples, some are "convinced" that they really make "night and day" differences..

Now...cables...if one is happy with one's choices...that is of course fine..

Unfortunately, there are sellers out there who prey on the ignorance and the gullibility of people, and are more than willing to help them part with their cash...to some, 1,000 dollars for a meter of wire is nothing but pocket change, for others (like me), it is not. But if I have been convinced that it is a necessary expense to get good sound, I would save up to do so.

So far, the arguments I've heard to try and convince me have been incredibly dumb and easily discarded by inspection....things like grain boundaries, strand jumping...the list is long..and I have the education and experience to know better than to fall for that trash. But that's me...others are not so fortunate (actually, THEY may be the fortunate ones:-))

If you want to convince me, then give me a good physics explanation, or a reasonable metric that proves a difference..

Till then, I'll continue my endeavor to analyze the stuff and develop tests to see the differences. And, I'll call floobydust exactly what it is...floobydust....

Cheers, John

FLZapped

10-06-2004, 12:56 PM

No antagonism taken.

Our perception is a convolution of sensory inputs modified by psycological factors(anticipation, expectations, mood) that may not result in what is actually happening. It's a real pain, because there is no mechanism to tell us when, or how much some other factor is influencing the final outcome.

Let me attempt to tie this down to something....

Marketing is psychology 101.

Allow me to use a different subject as an anaolgy.

Would a TV advertizement showing the chef of a local restaurant getting a frozen steak out of the freezer at 8AM to thaw and plunking it down on a counter do anything for you?

On the other hand, how about the chef shown cooking that steak over an open wood fire, with steam and smoke rising and the sound of it sizzling away on the grill grating as the criss-crossed carmelized surface gleams with it's juices do something for you??

The esoteric cables compaines use this exact methodology to suggest that your system will actually improve if you use their product by building up anticipation. By the time you get home, you're foaming at th mouth to try them, no? (or any new "toy" *grin*)

Please note that not a single cable company has ever voluntarily taken part in any test to verify the voracity of their claims.

-Bruce

ericl

10-06-2004, 01:12 PM

J-

funny post. I like the idea of having a picture of myself in the freezer. I think most of us agree that there is a LOT of BS in audio. That said, i think some tweaks do work and some cables sound bettter than others. (i use belden 89259 and am happy with em)

I am wondering some things:
when you see dozens to hundreds to maybe even thousands of positive reviews of a product, then what do you attribute that to? Does it make you even a bit curious to hear for yourself? Or do you just think they are ALL deceiving themselves, have been hoodwinked or are shills for the manufacturer? Don't you think if so many people report hearing improvements that there might be something to it? Do you react to positive cable reviews the same as positive speaker reviews? Isn't it logical to assume the same about speaker reviewers, being deceived, fooled, or a shill?

I don't mean to be flippant or antagonistic, I am genuinely curious about your view.

thanks,
eric

Monstrous Mike

10-06-2004, 01:35 PM

The problems WE have occur when the objectivists say we are hearing things, fantasizing, we've read too many Stereophile articles, we're gullible, etc, etc.
Thanks for your response. I understand your statement here but the mainstream objectivist point of view is that you <i>may</i> be hearing things or fantasizing and we are all gullible to a certain extent. And it's not just gullibility it's the fact that sometimes when you come to a conclusion you tend to hold onto that conclusion with a little more vigour than a completely emotionless, objective person (which nobody is). I gave some examples in a recent post where I had thought (and even been taught in school) that water goes down drains in a direction depending on the hemishpere you are in. And this was explained scientifically to be the result of the Coriolis Effect. Well, after 42 years of believing that (and I do have my fair share of science education and work experience) to be true, I found out it wasn't true all. Things like this give me pause. It doesn't mean I have to drop all my beliefs and start again but it does highlight that sometimes you really should verify something, especially if you intend on repeating it to others.

The main point is that when listening to audio components and doing subjective comparisions and/or evaluations, there are certain factors that come into play. If these factors are not controlled, then the final assessment is likely to be erroneous to some degree. Most people when assessing audio don't have the time, money or inclination to do proper testing so the main opinion I have is that you may be making decisions and purchases based on false testing. Of course, everyone has the right not to care about this but they should at least be aware of it.

musicoverall

10-06-2004, 01:51 PM

Radiol was touted years ago as a health elixer...and killed people..smoking, same thing...but, people were "convinced" of their worth..as to the other examples, some are "convinced" that they really make "night and day" differences..Cheers, John

I see your point but the first two convictions were proven to be false. And it appears that I am being asked to prove something to be true.

I wouldn't dream of trying to convince anyone of anything having to do with sound. I would, however, encourage anyone to experiment with cables.

musicoverall

10-06-2004, 01:55 PM

No antagonism taken.

Our perception is a convolution of sensory inputs modified by psycological factors(anticipation, expectations, mood) that may not result in what is actually happening. It's a real pain, because there is no mechanism to tell us when, or how much some other factor is influencing the final outcome.

That is why you need to try and deprive your other senses, so that your brain processes only aural signals to diminish internal processing as much as possible. Mood is a hard one to filter out, which is why you would usually do multiple repitions over a period of time and use multiple listeners - along with trying to have a pleasant environment to begin with.

For the purposes of satisfying yourself, it isn't necessary. For scientific results, it's absolutely necessary. I suppose you could find scenarios that will fall in between these extremes. Such as giving solid credibility when making a proclaimation such as "it was a night and day difference" on a "public" forum - that makes those if us more skeptical, or who have at least some experience in the realm of psychoacoustics sit up and take notice.

I suppose if the statement had been worded so that it was clearly an opinion, rather than a declarative statement, it would have not set off that alarm. An opinion is not arguable.

Clear as mud?

-Bruce

No, actually it makes a lot of sense. From here on out, I officially declare ALL my posts to be subjective opinions only unless I clearly state it to be a declarative statement. I don't think as a scientist would and from your posts I gather there's an awful lot of science being violated by those claiming to hear differences in cables. :)

Any further instruction on this testing? Might be interesting to try out.

musicoverall

10-06-2004, 02:00 PM

Thanks for your response. I understand your statement here but the mainstream objectivist point of view is that you <i>may</i> be hearing things or fantasizing and we are all gullible to a certain extent. And it's not just gullibility it's the fact that sometimes when you come to a conclusion you tend to hold onto that conclusion with a little more vigour than a completely emotionless, objective person (which nobody is). I gave some examples in a recent post where I had thought (and even been taught in school) that water goes down drains in a direction depending on the hemishpere you are in. And this was explained scientifically to be the result of the Coriolis Effect. Well, after 42 years of believing that (and I do have my fair share of science education and work experience) to be true, I found out it wasn't true all. Things like this give me pause. It doesn't mean I have to drop all my beliefs and start again but it does highlight that sometimes you really should verify something, especially if you intend on repeating it to others.

The main point is that when listening to audio components and doing subjective comparisions and/or evaluations, there are certain factors that come into play. If these factors are not controlled, then the final assessment is likely to be erroneous to some degree. Most people when assessing audio don't have the time, money or inclination to do proper testing so the main opinion I have is that you may be making decisions and purchases based on false testing. Of course, everyone has the right not to care about this but they should at least be aware of it.

Mike and others...

I have zero scientific training and so I'll apologize in advance for any necessary spoonfeeding.

Sheesh - you mean water DOESN'T follow this "rule"? Seriously, I've heard this said, too, and today is the first time I've heard it refuted. LOL! I'd have to say you made your point, and made me laugh at myself as well! :)

There must be some way we can do evaluations that are at least reasonably more objective than going to a "sensory deprivation" chamber. Something that could be done in a home, perhaps?

hertz

10-06-2004, 11:01 PM

Well, that's fine for your system and set-up. If you are indeed happy, great, but as an engineer, I think you would want an answer as to why you seemed to get such a large difference, especially when the physics are the same. *shrug*

-Bruce
Well..I do not understand you. My audiophile friend let me try his KIMBER 4pr, 8pr and some monstor cable (16 guage) (forgot the name) at my home for a week because he went on holiday.
I have a few recordings which are unlistenable unless I adjust the tone controls a bit to improve the resolution. The problem dissapears with the 8pr and 4 pr but it is still there with the monstor cable and the generic 12 guage OFC cable which I was using. I switched back to my cable when I returned the cables (I had to wait a week to take delivery of the 4pr) and the problem is back. For my ears this change is very clear. And I am a guy who is very hard to please. I have an engineering degree in computer science.

jneutron

10-07-2004, 05:39 AM

J- I am wondering some things:
when you see dozens to hundreds to maybe even thousands of positive reviews of a product, then what do you attribute that to?
Are you talking about cigarettes, radiol, hormonal therapy, homeopathic....some of which have <i>millions</i> of positive reviews...

Does it make you even a bit curious to hear for yourself? Or do you just think they are ALL deceiving themselves, have been hoodwinked or are shills for the manufacturer? Don't you think if so many people report hearing improvements that there might be something to it? Do you react to positive cable reviews the same as positive speaker reviews? Isn't it logical to assume the same about speaker reviewers, being deceived, fooled, or a shill?
I believe that all I see are frequency response and absolute phase responses to all considerations of the wire thingy..what I do not see is anybody considering the ENTIRE system that is being used..that system includes our ears and brain, and what is required for the brain to create in our mind the image of a soundstage. I do not see anybody else pointing out the fact that using two speakers to create that soundstage is an artificial construct that is incapable of providing the correct vector based sound wavefronts, which leaves our brain to fabricate what it is we wish to hear.

Don't you think if so many people report hearing improvements that there might be something to it?
I am not in the habit of chasing fiction..the fact that I've spent in excess of a man year investigating the possibility, the science, and the test technology should be an indication as to my position. The fact that soundstage fabrication requires such incredible speed resolution on the part of the human hearing has been historically lost on all, and that is where I have just a wee bit of knowledge...measurement and understanding of very high speed, low impedance, test. I find that this issue will require advancing the SOTA for audio power measurement about two orders of magnitude in speed resolution..I will try for three, that is where I am going..for the number guys, I am working my power load to be non reactive for 250 pSec risetimes...if I get flat to 10 nSec, I'll be happy.

I don't mean to be flippant or antagonistic, I am genuinely curious about your view. thanks,
eric
I've not taken your questions as either flippant or antagonistic...

My views are:
1. The entire audio world has missed the boat w/r to lateralization issues and how the entire system affects our perception.
2. The entire audio world does not know how to reallllllly measure low impedance/high speed with the accuracy I work with every day.. Recall the Hawksford debacle..
3. I do not believe in mass hysteria.
4. I believe there are some hucksters out there, preying on the uninformed.
5. I believe I am happy drinking a 10 dollar bottle of wine, even though I am painfully aware that a 100 dollar bottle tastes so much better. That is the same with my audio...I am aware my 5.1 is not top tier, but find happiness watching matrix revisited on that non optimal system, as I am there for the content, not the soundstage. And the two inch cube speakers do not dominate the room, but decor does..(makes her happy as well). If I really need volume, I could setup my 3) 18 inchers, the 4) 15's, the 6) 12's, and make whoopee with my body and ears, but it's only a movie...I save the high power/spl for auditoriums and stages.
6. I believe absolute statements are never actually, and that nobody is right all the time..
7. I believe that the woman I love, my children, my home life, all take precedence to anything audio, so what I persue audiowise will always be back burner to those. I note with pleasure that all here who are aware of what I am working on have never pushed me to do it faster. Since I am in this for intellectual reasons and not monetary ones, I have no problem with discussing my new ideas on forum, giving others who derive a living from this stuff the opportunity to run with my ideas wherever they may lead...all I would ask is credit for my thinking..

We are human...we can be fooled by suggestion and expectations...that is what I believe the others are pointing out..

Cheers, John

E-Stat

10-07-2004, 06:02 AM

Please note that not a single cable company has ever voluntarily taken part in any test to verify the voracity of their claims.
Nor will you find a single audio company who uses such testing to promote their products either.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=18771&postcount=53

rw

FLZapped

10-07-2004, 07:17 AM

Nor will you find a single audio company who uses such testing to promote their products either.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=18771&postcount=53

rw

This is a rather circular argument. If they have never voluntarily taken part in such a test, it certainly stands to reason that they would not advertise as such.

Further, there is far more for the companies to lose than to gain in such a public exercise as it is most likely viewed as a winner take all proposition.

-Bruce

FLZapped

10-07-2004, 07:22 AM

No, actually it makes a lot of sense. From here on out, I officially declare ALL my posts to be subjective opinions only unless I clearly state it to be a declarative statement.

Okay, now all I have to do is try and remember that! :p

I don't think as a scientist would and from your posts I gather there's an awful lot of science being violated by those claiming to hear differences in cables. :)

Any further instruction on this testing? Might be interesting to try out.

It's too bad the old archives aren't available as there was at least one fellow(Richard Greene, I believe) who posted a procedure that could be tried in the home. Maybe someone has saved it and can post it over at the "Audio Lab" board.

-Bruce

E-Stat

10-07-2004, 07:37 AM

This is a rather circular argument. If they have never voluntarily taken part in such a test, it certainly stands to reason that they would not advertise as such.

Further, there is far more for the companies to lose than to gain in such a public exercise as it is most likely viewed as a winner take all proposition.
Perhaps I should have stated my point more plainly. You singled out cable companies. I am pointing out that NO home audio related companies do either. This is true whether they sell receivers, amplifiers, preamplifiers, tuners, CD players, tape recorders, loudspeakers, turntables, tonearms, cartridges, etc.

Why do you think that is?

rw

musicoverall

10-07-2004, 07:52 AM

FLZapped

10-07-2004, 09:12 AM

Perhaps I should have stated my point more plainly. You singled out cable companies. I am pointing out that NO home audio related companies do either. This is true whether they sell receivers, amplifiers, preamplifiers, tuners, CD players, tape recorders, loudspeakers, turntables, tonearms, cartridges, etc.

Why do you think that is?

rw

Same one. They probably also feel their dollars are better spent on advertising. You don't really have to prove anything there, other than your chosen ad company's ability to create a desire for your product.

-Bruce

E-Stat

10-07-2004, 09:23 AM

Same one. They probably also feel their dollars are better spent on advertising. You don't really have to prove anything there, other than your chosen ad company's ability to create a desire for your product.
I'm glad we agree. Evidently, there are zero audio manufacturers of any persuasion who feel that conducting DBTs is a worthy use of their budget dollars. Or, for those who do, feel that presenting the results in their advertising is of worthy mention.

rw

musicoverall

10-07-2004, 01:47 PM

I'm glad we agree. Evidently, there are zero audio manufacturers of any persuasion who feel that conducting DBTs is a worthy use of their budget dollars. Or, for those who do, feel that presenting the results in their advertising is of worthy mention.

rw

The only "DBT" I know of that makes sense in this context is Double Blind Test. Is this what you mean?

If this is the case, and DBT's are not in fact used in ad copy, isn't some enterprising Pioneer marketing guy missing the boat? I mean, if their receivers do indeed sound exactly like a Krell pre/power system, I would think they would use that info not only IN their advertising but as the cornerstone of same.... and I think I'm beginning to get your point! :)

E-Stat

10-07-2004, 02:08 PM

The only "DBT" I know of that makes sense in this context is Double Blind Test. Is this what you mean?
Yes.

.... and I think I'm beginning to get your point! :)
Either everyone on the planet misses the boat...or gets it.

rw

hertz

10-08-2004, 01:26 AM

Guy - I saw a donkey.
Logic guy - there are no donkeys in this world.
Guy - But I saw it.
Logic guy- How do you know.
Guy- I know because I saw it.
Logic guy- how can you be so sure ?
Guy- I have seen pictures of it in my zoology book.
Logic guy- it is a printing mistake. there are actually no donkeys in this word.
Guy- but one just went walking by.
Logic guy- that is actually my dog.there are only dogs in this world.
Guy- does your dog look like a donkey ?
Logic guy- I told you, there are no donkeys in this world.
Guy- scratches his head and walks on convinced that he is living in a loony world.

FLZapped

10-08-2004, 07:04 AM

Monstrous Mike

10-08-2004, 08:47 AM

Perhaps I should have stated my point more plainly. You singled out cable companies. I am pointing out that NO home audio related companies do either. This is true whether they sell receivers, amplifiers, preamplifiers, tuners, CD players, tape recorders, loudspeakers, turntables, tonearms, cartridges, etc.

Why do you think that is?

rw
I'll give this a shot with two possible answers. One, perhaps they all do not sound all that different. Speakers would be the exception for this answer.

Two, perhaps any sound differences are simply differences and choosing one over the other is a matter of preference. Pepsi tastes different than Coke, I think anybody could agree with that. But to say one is better than the other is a matter of opinion and taste.

Monstrous Mike

10-08-2004, 09:06 AM

Mike and others...

I have zero scientific training and so I'll apologize in advance for any necessary spoonfeeding.

Sheesh - you mean water DOESN'T follow this "rule"? Seriously, I've heard this said, too, and today is the first time I've heard it refuted. LOL! I'd have to say you made your point, and made me laugh at myself as well! :)

There must be some way we can do evaluations that are at least reasonably more objective than going to a "sensory deprivation" chamber. Something that could be done in a home, perhaps?
Just to follow up on that Coreolis Effect myth. The reason it is not true that drains rotate in a certain direction is that the Coreolis Effect is extremely small compared to the movement in sinks and toilet bowls. Thus, the direction of rotation of the drain depends on the initial state of the water. If you wanted to have a drain rotate according to the hemisphere, then you would need a perfectly still room (i.e. no air movement), allow the water to stop any initial movement (about 24 hours for 45 degrees latitude), and then release the plug without disturbing the water and set the drain rate such that it would take 24 hours to fully drain. Then, the Coreolis Effect would cause the water to rotate according to the hemisphere.

Since you liked that flushing water one so much how about another. It is not true that the Great Wall of China is the only man-made object visible from orbit. According to people who have been in orbit, there are many man-made objects visible from space and the Great Wall of China is actually very hard to see.

The kind of test that FLZapped is talking about would be fairly rigorous, expensive, time-consuming, and beyond most of our capabilities. And it would likely not be done in somebody's home.

So for us at home, the simplest test is a single blind test where you get a buddy to swap wires and you just sit and listen. It is fairly important that this buddy not be an audiophile and really have no clue about the wires he is dealing with. In this type of test, there is a chance that somehow you can tell the wires by the voice or body language of your buddy. However, this test is free and easy.

For a more complicated test, you could buy an ABX comparator and set up a number of trials using a number of people with a varied selection of music. This sort of thing would probably take a day to set up and another day to conduct.

E-Stat

10-08-2004, 09:15 AM

I imagine it is more out of fear that they don't publish any such results, rather than the potential for gain.
In my business of software development, we are always looking for referrals and other ways to demonstrate the value of our product. It is evident that there isn't a single audio manufacturer who has found a positive story to tell their prospective customers.

rw

jneutron

10-08-2004, 09:28 AM

Just to follow up on that Coreolis Effect myth. The reason it is not true that drains rotate in a certain direction is that the Coreolis Effect is extremely small compared to the movement in sinks and toilet bowls. Thus, the direction of rotation of the drain depends on the initial state of the water. If you wanted to have a drain rotate according to the hemisphere, then you would need a perfectly still room (i.e. no air movement), allow the water to stop any initial movement (about 24 hours for 45 degrees latitude), and then release the plug without disturbing the water and set the drain rate such that it would take 24 hours to fully drain. Then, the Coreolis Effect would cause the water to rotate according to the hemisphere.

Hmmm..A friend and co-worker of mine provided this to me:

While on one of those safari type tours, his group had occasion to cross the equator. At the equatorial line, there was a hut, and in that hut was a native. This being a creative native, managed to convince anyone who stops, to part with a little bit of money for a demonstration.

This gentleman setup a bucket, one of several gallons, with a stopper in the center bottom. He filled the bucket, and carried it 100 feet to the south of the equator..once the water had calmed down and stopped sloshing, he dropped many little bits of paper on the water surface...

Then, he pulled out the stopper from underneath, allowing the water to drain. After a few minutes, the water was rotating in one direction, as evidenced by the papers swirling.

Once done, he repeated this....same direction....again, same..

Then he moved the entire setup 100 feet north of the equator....

The water, repeatedly, rotated in the opposite direction north of the equator as south...a skeptical guy (my friend), had the gentleman go back south and do it again...

It seems to work...

Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger

Cheers, John

Monstrous Mike

10-08-2004, 11:00 AM

Hmmm..A friend and co-worker of mine provided this to me:

While on one of those safari type tours, his group had occasion to cross the equator. At the equatorial line, there was a hut, and in that hut was a native. This being a creative native, managed to convince anyone who stops, to part with a little bit of money for a demonstration.

This gentleman setup a bucket, one of several gallons, with a stopper in the center bottom. He filled the bucket, and carried it 100 feet to the south of the equator..once the water had calmed down and stopped sloshing, he dropped many little bits of paper on the water surface...

Then, he pulled out the stopper from underneath, allowing the water to drain. After a few minutes, the water was rotating in one direction, as evidenced by the papers swirling.

Once done, he repeated this....same direction....again, same..

Then he moved the entire setup 100 feet north of the equator....

The water, repeatedly, rotated in the opposite direction north of the equator as south...a skeptical guy (my friend), had the gentleman go back south and do it again...

It seems to work...

Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger

Cheers, John
BTW, the Coriolis Effect is zero at the equator so it is only very slightly above zero just meters from the equator.

John, send this link to your buddy:
http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadCoriolis.html

Note that when the tourists were told they were victims of a fakery they were disappointed and preferred the fantasy. I wonder if this type of thinking happens in audio?

You know now that I think of it, this a perfect analogy to a lot of the claims in audio. You have an apparent effect, rotation of water, and an apparent cause, the Coriolis Effect. And you have proof that Coriolis Effect applies to all moving objects on earth, water in a bowl included. However, this effect is extremely small compared to all the other effects on the water such as initial water currents, vibrations, air currents, etc.

jneutron

10-08-2004, 12:19 PM

BTW, the Coriolis Effect is zero at the equator so it is only very slightly above zero just meters from the equator.

John, send this link to your buddy:
http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadCoriolis.html

Note that when the tourists were told they were victims of a fakery they were disappointed and preferred the fantasy. I wonder if this type of thinking happens in audio?

You know now that I think of it, this a perfect analogy to a lot of the claims in audio. You have an apparent effect, rotation of water, and an apparent cause, the Coriolis Effect. And you have proof that Coriolis Effect applies to all moving objects on earth, water in a bowl included. However, this effect is extremely small compared to all the other effects on the water such as initial water currents, vibrations, air currents, etc.

That is VERY cool. Thanks for the link...I'm gonna have a lot of fun with my friend...(but don't feel too sorry for him, he deserves it)

You know what I'm relieved about? At least he was tellin me the truth about his experience with this guy...I was worried that he had pulled a fast one on me...

You know? If the smart guy on the tour knew all along that it was a fake....how come he couldn't spot what was going on?. interesting..

Cheers, John

musicoverall

10-08-2004, 12:20 PM

Just to follow up on that Coreolis Effect myth. The reason it is not true that drains rotate in a certain direction is that the Coreolis Effect is extremely small compared to the movement in sinks and toilet bowls. Thus, the direction of rotation of the drain depends on the initial state of the water. If you wanted to have a drain rotate according to the hemisphere, then you would need a perfectly still room (i.e. no air movement), allow the water to stop any initial movement (about 24 hours for 45 degrees latitude), and then release the plug without disturbing the water and set the drain rate such that it would take 24 hours to fully drain. Then, the Coreolis Effect would cause the water to rotate according to the hemisphere.

Since you liked that flushing water one so much how about another. It is not true that the Great Wall of China is the only man-made object visible from orbit. According to people who have been in orbit, there are many man-made objects visible from space and the Great Wall of China is actually very hard to see.

The kind of test that FLZapped is talking about would be fairly rigorous, expensive, time-consuming, and beyond most of our capabilities. And it would likely not be done in somebody's home.

So for us at home, the simplest test is a single blind test where you get a buddy to swap wires and you just sit and listen. It is fairly important that this buddy not be an audiophile and really have no clue about the wires he is dealing with. In this type of test, there is a chance that somehow you can tell the wires by the voice or body language of your buddy. However, this test is free and easy.

For a more complicated test, you could buy an ABX comparator and set up a number of trials using a number of people with a varied selection of music. This sort of thing would probably take a day to set up and another day to conduct.

Thanks for the ideas. I may give that a shot, once I find a second set of cables that I believe sound as radically different as possible. That's never been easy.

Interesting study of modern day mythology you've undertaken! Mine stopped when I learned that John saying "I buried Paul" he was actually saying "cranberry sauce"! :)

Monstrous Mike

10-08-2004, 03:43 PM

You know? If the smart guy on the tour knew all along that it was a fake....how come he couldn't spot what was going on?. interesting..

Cheers, John
Well I suppose it's a lot like a David Copperfield show. You know that the elephant or tank didn't actually disappear but you can't really figure out how he made it appear that way, regardless of how smart you are.

Norm Strong

10-11-2004, 01:25 PM

With that in mind I'm looking to see if anyone has had any experience with replacing the cheap "lamp-cord" 18 guage A/C cables of some equipment (namely power amplifiers) with higher quality cables like those from Monster Cable, or even a heavy duty extension cord. My amplifiers are big, powerful DENON monoblocks, but why the decided to attach a 16 guage lamp cord for power is beyond me. I'm thinking of upgrading it (I'll do it anyway, I just want opinions, thoughts, and comments) to one from Monster Cable like the model 300 or 400. Why MC? I know they're expensive and have high mark-ups, but I like their styling and since these cords are visible in my system, a "pretty" cable is prefferred. But I also want a high quality cable too. Anyone have any experience with these MC power cables?

Have I ever replaced the power cable on one of my power amplifiers? No.
Nor have I ever bought an amplifier with and 18 Ga power cord. They've all been bigger.
Nor have I ever bought an amplifier with a replaceable power cord.

Is that what you wanted to know?

Rycher

10-17-2004, 08:19 AM

A little too late. I've already replaced the power cords. Seems I could'nt get a straight answer here that I decided to change them out anyway. Results? Yes, there was a change. :)

cam

10-17-2004, 08:39 AM

A little too late. I've already replaced the power cords. Seems I could'nt get a straight answer here that I decided to change them out anyway. Results? Yes, there was a change. :)
A change, you mean you gave them $100 and they gave you a power cord and 50 cents in change.

Rycher

10-17-2004, 09:27 AM

A change, you mean you gave them $100 and they gave you a power cord and 50 cents in change.

Actually, I needed 2 cables as I have mono amps. The cables cost $49.99 each, and the Tripp-Lite "filtered" receptacle cost $10.00 each - bringing the total up to $120.00 before tax. I did the install myself. I had 3 friends over listening to music all morning long - each of us getting familiar with the music and "sound" of my system. After the surgury, we were all "not to surprised" to find not much of a difference - not much, but there was a slight perceptable change in bass response. Granted it was small, and unless you already have a revealing system you'd probably easily over-look it. All in all, it was a great little experiment.

Chu Gai

12-05-2004, 09:14 PM

Evidently, there are zero audio manufacturers of any persuasion who feel that conducting DBTs is a worthy use of their budget dollars.
While I haven't seen the whole thread, does that mean that H/K, Paradigm, JBL, PSB, the multitude of Chinese manufacturing sites that are OEM'ing speakers and amps to other companies, are considered audio manufacturers of neglible persuasion?
BTW, over in Secrets, they just wrapped up a SBT test where $10,000 worth of Nordost Power Cords were swapped with stock power cords (to enhance matters I guess) with a null result. Oops.

pctower

12-06-2004, 06:14 PM

How did you get to be a moderator - a Super Moderator no less?

It must be driving Bruce, MM and the others nuts that an AA-type is now in charge over here. :)

Yes.

Either everyone on the planet misses the boat...or gets it.

rw

E-Stat

12-07-2004, 01:15 PM

While I haven't seen the whole thread, does that mean that H/K, Paradigm, JBL, PSB, the multitude of Chinese manufacturing sites that are OEM'ing speakers and amps to other companies, are considered audio manufacturers of neglible persuasion?
Chu, I have no idea what you are talking about. Since you elect not to read the context of my comments, I'll fill you in. Show me a manufacturer who uses DBT test results in their advertising, product brochures, or product manuals. Since you mention Harman-Kardon first, try this: Go to Harman International's website and choose the products link. Then click the "Search Center" and look for references to DBT double blind test and see how many results you get.

BTW, over in Secrets, they just wrapped up a SBT test where $10,000 worth of Nordost Power Cords were swapped with stock power cords (to enhance matters I guess) with a null result. Oops.
Oops indeed. Read the details of it's methodology. That "test" was loaded with all sorts of poor controls that renders it irrelevant.

rw

E-Stat

12-07-2004, 01:27 PM

How did you get to be a moderator - a Super Moderator no less?
I was asked to participate and at first, declined. I later accepted the charge. Following my acceptance, I was given that moniker by the site master. There really is no moderator hierarchy that I'm aware of.

It must be driving Bruce, MM and the others nuts that an AA-type is now in charge over here. :)
Indeed. Most of them went to audio alcoholics. There they continue to expend great effort to discuss at length the theoretical basis of that which they perceive to be nothing. Former regulars like mytrycrafts continue to hide behind their lack of experience.

I consider my time more valuable and devote it to topics where I believe there is relevancy. To each his own.

rw

Chu Gai

12-08-2004, 03:49 AM

Show me a manufacturer who uses DBT test results in their advertising, product brochures, or product manuals. Since you mention Harman-Kardon first, try this: Go to Harman International's website and choose the products link. Then click the "Search Center" and look for references to DBT double blind test and see how many results you get.
Of what relevance this is I don't know. Internal memos and studies circulated among departments that also include matters pertaining to profit and loss, refer to controlled testing where relevant. Tide, Fuji, Kodak, Burger King, Coke, your local optometrist, companies making raw material changes, car manufacturers, and others all use controlled testing in various forms of what might be considered 'blind' to assess matters. While you're on the topic of searching, try Googling "harman blind toole" and see what comes up.

Oops indeed. Read the details of it's methodology. That "test" was loaded with all sorts of poor controls that renders it irrelevant.
I agree and commented on that in the Secrets' site. So what are the ways consumers are told to evaluate a PC? Put it in your system and listen for a while. You've got X-days. Some controls, huh?

Mtry may well be inexperienced. His spelling is not the greatest. Sentences may well need some work. But he's aware of the studies and can see the parallels between cables and all sorts of flummery that exist in the world. Putting the onus of proof upon the vendors is not such a terrible thing to do.

E-Stat

12-08-2004, 05:24 AM

. Putting the onus of proof upon the vendors is not such a terrible thing to do.
Forget cables for a moment.

What proof must vendors provide when selling <i>any</i> audio component ?
What proof must vendors provide when selling laundry detergent?
What proof must vendors provide when selling hamburgers?
What proof must vendors provide when selling automobiles?
What proof must vendors provide when selling cameras?

And billions of similar questions.

rw

noddin0ff

12-08-2004, 06:23 AM

Forget cables for a moment.

What proof must vendors provide when selling <i>any</i> audio component ?
What proof must vendors provide when selling laundry detergent?
What proof must vendors provide when selling hamburgers?
What proof must vendors provide when selling automobiles?
What proof must vendors provide when selling cameras?

And billions of similar questions.

rw

Depends on what you're proving. Claims are to be truthful. If the claim is subjective such as 'better tasting' , 'enjoyable ride' , 'easier to use' , you really only need to show that some demographic agrees with the claim. However, if the claim is not subjective, '9 grams of fat' , '33 mpg', '30-80mm focus', this must be supported with sound scientific evidence.

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to realize that audio claims fall in both categories. Listening is subjective, but waveforms, power, resistance, dB are all very non-subjective. If the claim is 'greater imaging' that's subjective. If the claim is 'greater low frequency extension' that's not subjective.

Then there are the grey areas. Claims may be scientifically verifiable, yet below the threshold of human perception. Because humans are subjective some may hear a difference but in carefully controlled double-blind experiments you can prove that the perceived differences are subjective and not factual. Although, I suppose you can make allowances for exceptional individuals with superior perception, just like you can make allowances for the tone-deaf. In areas where rigor really matters like medicine and drugs, statistical testing allows us to separate factual effects from snake-oil subjectiveness. In areas where this really doesn't matter, like high-end audio there is less rigor and more snake oil, and, perhaps, a need for rigor to identify the snake oil. It doesn't work the other way because subjectivity cannot disprove scientific rigor. That's just the way logic works.

In this thread, claims of scientific rigor were made in areas of subjective opinion and visa-versa. Those that don't know the difference sound like idiots but if they don't know who they are by now, I'm not going to insult them by naming them.

noddin0ff

Little Buzz

12-12-2004, 02:35 PM

Everybody is forgetting about the most important thing in the A/C chain! All those little electrons still have to squeeze themselves through that thin little wire known as the FUSE!!!

Why all the fuss over power cords! The voltage fluctuations on the A/C mains (unless you experience a serious brown / black out) will not harm your equipment or audio experience at all!

Don't forget that your power supply voltage will be more than enough to staisfy the input requirements of the DC voltage regulator design into the amp itself.

I wouldn't risk damaging my equipment by re-soldering a new power cord anyway.

E-Stat

12-12-2004, 03:30 PM

Why all the fuss over power cords!
Because it can make an audible difference.

The voltage fluctuations on the A/C mains (unless you experience a serious brown / black out) will not harm your equipment or audio experience at all!
True.

Don't forget that your power supply voltage will be more than enough to staisfy the input requirements of the DC voltage regulator design into the amp itself.
Quantitatively, yes. Qualitatively, no.

I wouldn't risk damaging my equipment by re-soldering a new power cord anyway.
Only my '93 Pioneer CDP had a captive cord requiring rewiring. All my newer components have EIC jacks that allow for easy switching and comparisons with power cords.

rw

Little Buzz

12-12-2004, 09:29 PM

How can a different power cord make an audible difference? Gee, you must have the most incredible ears on the planet to detect this !

You already agreed that the voltage regulator in the amp filters out any fluctuations on the line. Plus, a power cord is not even an ative componant in the system.

Now if you really are claiming that changing out the power cord improved the sound of your amp then the amp must be of an incredibly poor design if it actually produces a noticably lousy performance under normal input A/C voltages through a standard 6ft power cord.

If the amp is that cheap you would be better off spending the extra money on a better amp and skip the power cord!

E-Stat

12-13-2004, 06:32 AM

How can a different power cord make an audible difference?
Allow better current transfer for some amps (my monoblocks can pull 10 amps each), and provide filtering for RF generated by all sorts of devices in your home. Your CDP is one such villain.

Gee, you must have the most incredible ears on the planet to detect this !
Nope. I do have, however, a particular passion for music listening practiced over thirty years. And the good fortune to hear some incredible systems (like HP's of The Absolute Sound) and be mentored by a number of experienced pairs of ears. I truly wish every music enthusiast could hear that incredible system.

Now if you really are claiming that changing out the power cord improved the sound of your amp then the amp must be of an incredibly poor design if it actually produces a noticably lousy performance under normal input A/C voltages through a standard 6ft power cord.
I use a pair of VTL MB-450s with 250 joule power supplies. General consensus is that they are good amplifiers. I would never characterize their performance as "lousy" when using the freebie cords. The differences using better cords are indeed subtle and incremental.

If the amp is that cheap you would be better off spending the extra money on a better amp and skip the power cord!
When you talk to designers of high performance components as I have, you might be surprised that many endorse the use of aftermarket cords to optimize the performance of their products.

rw

FLZapped

12-13-2004, 11:26 AM

I was asked to participate and at first, declined. I later accepted the charge. Following my acceptance, I was given that moniker by the site master. There really is no moderator hierarchy that I'm aware of.

It's all politics, the site administrator made the choices, as I had volunteered and was never contacted.

Indeed. Most of them went to audio alcoholics. There they continue to expend great effort to discuss at length the theoretical basis of that which they perceive to be nothing. Former regulars like mytrycrafts continue to hide behind their lack of experience.

The only thing maddening is idiotic comments like this that have no basis in fact themselves. Heaven forbid I made such a comment, I would be jumped all over for attacking someone.

-Bruce

FLZapped

12-13-2004, 11:34 AM

Allow better current transfer for some amps (my monoblocks can pull 10 amps each),

And you believe the engineers didn't design the equipment to make spec with the chosen power cord? You have evidence for this? So you have a great new 10 AWG power cord because your monoblocks pull 10 amps each, and you wall wiring, which is much longer, is probably 14AWG. A lot of good your new power cord does.

BTW - is that an RMS draw?

and provide filtering for RF generated by all sorts of devices in your home. Your CDP is one such villain.

RF filtering? This is no longer a power cord, it is a filter and needs to be so classified.
Again, you have evidence for the CDP being a "villan"? Even if it does let out some hash, what evidence do you have that any of the other audio equipment reacts to this in the least way?

-Bruce

markw

12-13-2004, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Little Buzz
"Why all the fuss over power cords!"

Because it can make an audible difference.Gee, you state that as if it were a proven and accepted fact. If it were, this thread would not have lingered so long with no resolution, doncha think?

It may be your opinion that they can make a difference but to infer it as a fact is simply wrong. Others do not share that opinion.

But at this point we're skating on thin ice here. I believe this thread is continued in the "Audio Lab" where "facts" vs. "opinions" can be discussed without repurcussions?

E-Stat

12-13-2004, 02:22 PM

And you believe the engineers didn't design the equipment to make spec with the chosen power cord? You have evidence for this?
Good questions. I find it most illuminating when you have the opportunity to speak with the designer directly about such matters. It was a Sunday afternoon a couple of years ago during a visit to HP in Seacliff. This was after I had first heard the VTL Wotans and was blown away by their sound quality. Harry hands me the phone and says talk. To whom? It was Luke Manley, the designer of VTL gear. We had a nice hour long chat about many an audio topic and his gracious wife, Bea. He supplies a basic 16 gauge cord with the 450 amps that most likely "meets spec". That does not, however, determine what is ideal. When I asked him about the value of aftermarket cords, he tells me that since most of his customers prefer to select one for themselves, he simply supplies the basic one. I later met him in Atlanta when he brought a pair of Siegfried amps to the local dealer for a meeting of the local audio club. He was using some JPS Labs cords. Those are sweeeet amps.

Ole Lund Christensen of GamuT told me essentially the same thing for the same reasons. One difference is that he only supplies a basic cord upon request and at no charge. During a dinner with HP, JWC, and Jud Barber of Joule Electra, we had a similar discussion. Jud's favorite cord is one of the Elrods.

So you have a great new 10 AWG power cord because your monoblocks pull 10 amps each, and you wall wiring, which is much longer, is probably 14AWG. A lot of good your new power cord does.
Yes.

BTW - is that an RMS draw?
Don't know. The manual simply says:

Power consumption Idle=260 W / Full Power = 1000 W

It uses a 15A ceramic slow blow fuse.

RF filtering? This is no longer a power cord, it is a filter and needs to be so classified.
Call it whatever you please. It is a cord that delivers power to the amps.

Again, you have evidence for the CDP being a "villan"? Even if it does let out some hash, what evidence do you have that any of the other audio equipment reacts to this in the least way?
Nope. Just better sound. :)

rw

E-Stat

12-13-2004, 02:26 PM

Gee, you state that as if it were a proven and accepted fact.
Nope, I state it as my opinion because we're NOT in the Audio Lab.

rw

FLZapped

12-13-2004, 03:37 PM

Good questions. I find it most illuminating when you have the opportunity to speak with the designer directly about such matters. It was a Sunday afternoon a couple of years ago during a visit to HP in Seacliff. This was after I had first heard the VTL Wotans and was blown away by their sound quality. Harry hands me the phone and says talk. To whom? It was Luke Manley, the designer of VTL gear. We had a nice hour long chat about many an audio topic and his gracious wife, Bea. He supplies a basic 16 gauge cord with the 450 amps that most likely "meets spec". That does not, however, determine what is ideal. When I asked him about the value of aftermarket cords, he tells me that since most of his customers prefer to select one for themselves, he simply supplies the basic one. I later met him in Atlanta when he brought a pair of Siegfried amps to the local dealer for a meeting of the local audio club. He was using some JPS Labs cords. Those are sweeeet amps.

Ole Lund Christensen of GamuT told me essentially the same thing for the same reasons. One difference is that he only supplies a basic cord upon request and at no charge. During a dinner with HP, JWC, and Jud Barber of Joule Electra, we had a similar discussion. Jud's favorite cord is one of the Elrods.

A lot of name dropping, and no answer. Are we supposed to be impressed?

Yes.

Don't know. The manual simply says:

Power consumption Idle=260 W / Full Power = 1000 W

It uses a 15A ceramic slow blow fuse.

Call it whatever you please. It is a cord that delivers power to the amps.

And thus your level of scientific knowledge shows once again.

Nope. Just better sound. :)

rw

It's clear that you think you have better sound, yet it is also clear that there is probably no way to reproduce your results because there is no methodology to follow, just what you have convinced yourself of. Sadly, you want others to believe your statements as factual, not based on perception without verification.

-Bruce

Tony_Montana

12-13-2004, 03:51 PM

When you talk to designers of high performance components as I have, you might be surprised that many endorse the use of aftermarket cords to optimize the performance of their products.

And then gain, many of them do not endorse after market power cords, and suggest to save your money and buy some nice music instead :)

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/97295.html

E-Stat

12-13-2004, 03:51 PM

A lot of name dropping, and no answer. Are we supposed to be impressed?
Let's try again. Here's your question:

And you believe the engineers didn't design the equipment to make spec with the chosen power cord? You have evidence for this?

I'll recap my answer for those who missed it.

<H1>I TALKED TO THE ENGINEER WHO DESIGNED THE EQUIPMENT.</H1>

rw

E-Stat

12-13-2004, 03:54 PM

And then gain, many of them do not endorse after market power cords, and suggest to save your money and buy some nice music instead
When does one constitute "many"?

rw

noddin0ff

12-14-2004, 07:56 AM

Let's try again. Here's your question:

And you believe the engineers didn't design the equipment to make spec with the chosen power cord? You have evidence for this?

I'll recap my answer for those who missed it.

<H1>I TALKED TO THE ENGINEER WHO DESIGNED THE EQUIPMENT.</H1>

rw

Um, ... the engineer told you 'that many customers prefer to select [a power cord] for themselves'. Apparently, the engineer did not tell you that the replacing the power cord would improve the amps performance beyond what the basic cord allowed in any way. Would you like to rephrase your argument?

noddin0ff

Monstrous Mike

12-14-2004, 08:53 AM

Nope, I state it as my opinion because we're NOT in the Audio Lab.

rw
I have worked with many power cords in my days in the navy. And I can honestly say that the power connection to a 10 megawatt radar is lot bigger than an audio amp. However, the cost of custom made cables with custom terminations for naval installations is nowhere near some of the prices being charged for a six foot audiophile powercord.

If audio cable industry profit margins are higher than defence contractor profit margins, then, well, if I was an audiophile I'd take a serious second look at what I was pumping my money into.

E-Stat

12-14-2004, 01:13 PM

Apparently, the engineer did not tell you that the replacing the power cord would improve the amps performance beyond what the basic cord allowed in any way.
Three different engineers from three different audio companies all told me essentially the same thing. Let me reiterate the point I made earlier:

When you talk to designers of high performance components as I have, you might be surprised that many endorse the use of aftermarket cords to optimize the performance of their products.

In the case of my VTL amps, they are rated at 10 amps and are supplied with basic 16 gauge wires good for 13 amp duty. Meets spec. Is meeting spec all there is to maximum performance? Not according to these gentlemen. And it is not all about simply meeting the current needs, either. The Michelin MXV4 tires that came with my Acura TL are V speed rated and meet spec. Are they the highest performance tires available for that car? No, they are far from it.

rw

Monstrous Mike

12-14-2004, 01:47 PM

When you talk to designers of high performance components as I have, you might be surprised that many endorse the use of aftermarket cords to optimize the performance of their products.
The next time you talk to these engineers ask them to explain the nature of the performance optimization (that's an improvement, right?). I mean if they endorse it, they have a reason. Ask them to be as technical as they want because they'll be explaining it to another electrical engineer. And also ask about any objective testing they've done, or even subjective testing, DBTs, measurements, etc.

You brought up the tire analogy which is good because I can use it now too. Tire engineers can explain why high performance tires are better. They can explain the composition of the rubber, the phyisics of the shape and width of the tire, the design of the tread, the profile, etc. And best of all, they have test results to show they are better and to back up the science of high performance tires. I might also point out that the price increase of tires actually matches a measurable performance and quality increase.

And finally, have those audio amp design engineers explain how the highest priced performance power cord is more expensive than the highest price performance tire?

E-Stat

12-14-2004, 02:50 PM

The next time you talk to these engineers ask them to explain the nature of the performance optimization (that's an improvement, right?). I mean if they endorse it, they have a reason.
The consistent reason is that each of them reports audible improvements. Two of them favor Elrod cords. Specifications only go so far.

You brought up the tire analogy which is good because I can use it now too. Tire engineers can explain why ...And best of all, they have test results to show they are better and to back up the science of high performance tires.
With easy to quantify data like cornering grip on a 200' lateral circle, yes. With criteria like breakaway characteristics, cornering grip during suspension camber changes, no. That's why the world's best tire designers from Michelin, Bridgestone, and others continually experiment with new compounds for the test drivers to exploit and report upon. F1 tire compounds are constantly changing. No my friend, they do not have all the answers either.

And finally, have those audio amp design engineers explain how the highest priced performance power cord is more expensive than the highest price performance tire?
Given that Michelin and Bridgestone are both coy about their investment in the F1 racing program, I believe your assertion is incorrect.

rw

woodman

12-14-2004, 06:32 PM

Three different engineers from three different audio companies all told me essentially the same thing. Let me reiterate the point I made earlier:

When you talk to designers of high performance components as I have, you might be surprised that many endorse the use of aftermarket cords to optimize the performance of their products.

... and this is all it takes for you to base a belief in after-market power cords upon? Don't look now sir, but your gullibility is showing - big time! In fact, your gullibility has far outpaced your common sense. Consider for just a moment that you're talking about "high-end" audio, where cost of manufacture has very little impact on the price of the product when it's brought to market ... so the added cost of providing a power cord that would enhance or improve the performance of said product is of no consequence whatsoever! The fact that they do not do so should tell you just how bogus the entire idea of afternarket power cords actually is.

The simple fact of the matter is that the power cord has but one function, which is to provide a sufficient amount of current to satisfy the demands of the power supply within the electronic component ... that's all. It is not "rocket science" by any stretch of the imagination. The one parameter of the cord that is meaningful in fulfilling that job is the wire gauge. There isn't anything else about the cord that can be changed that will affect performance, other than the addition of some extraneous parts that are included in the attempt to "filter" out RF and other noise and provide "cleaner" power. This is for the most part totally irrelevant and redundant, since that job is taken care of within the power supply circuitry of the component itself.

In closing, let me quote the infamous weight-loss guru of some years ago - Susan Powter, whose mantra was ...
"STOP THE INSANITY" ... (about aftermarket power cords, that is).

E-Stat

12-15-2004, 05:38 AM

... and this is all it takes for you to base a belief in after-market power cords upon?
Belief? My comments as to the benefits in my system are not based upon beliefs nor theory. They are based upon experience. Mine and that of a dear friend with keen ears who has been part of the Atlanta Symphony for over thirty years. My initial feeling was that there would not be any differences, even subtle ones. On well recorded unamplified music, there were. Then again, quite a few friends think I'm nuts anyway when they see my system. :)

Manufacturers of high performance gear have nothing to gain suggesting that someone else's product will help theirs unless their experience supports that notion. Which cords in what system(s) have you heard in your sixty years? Surely you are not basing your belief on theory alone.

(late edit: A search on another topic revealed another thread where you previously answered the question. My apologies. Your position as a retired repair tech is based on theory alone)

rw

Monstrous Mike

12-15-2004, 10:07 AM

Belief? My comments as to the benefits in my system are not based upon beliefs nor theory. They are based upon experience.
There's nothing wrong with basing you beliefs on experience. But how do you handle theory or other beliefs and experience that are contrary to your experience? For example, I had believed for a long time that the Coriolis Effect caused sinks and toilets to drain a certain way depending on which hemisphere you are in. It was taught by teachers and was even in textbooks in school. A bit of experience at home showed that yeah, the water seems to drain clockwise where I live.

But after some more thought about it, I realized that I had not observed draining in a scientific manner and learned that there are many more variables associated with a drain than just the Coriolis Effect. It turns out that the Coriolis Effect is too small to be a factor in the draining of a sink unless it is a perfect basin that has no water movement and is allowed to drain for more than 24 hours in a perfectly benign environment. In other words, my original belief based on my observations and the observations of most other people was completely wrong.

So I guess I am saying to you any others out there is to be careful with your observations, which are your experiences. It is even well known in audio that small and/or subtle audible differences need to be detected using very controlled conditions. Dr. Floyd Toole was a pioneer in that area writing several papers on the concept of double blind testing. As well, the engineers who developed mp3 algorithms and Dolby Digital also used very carefully controlled conditions to fine tune their algorithms. Here is one link to a paper on how to properly test for audible differences in audio systems: http://www.itu.int/rec/recommendation.asp?type=items&lang=e&parent=R-REC-BS.1116-1-199710-I.

I realize nobody is going to do a full scientific test in their home to verify their observations, we'd all go batty. But it is something to think about, especially when you are spending large amounts of money and your goal is real audio improvement.

I really don't know what the solution is but I do have large amount of certainty that there are many instances in the audio world where observed improvements are exchanged by people but there is no scientific backing be it theory, measurement or controlled subjective evaluation. As was the case with the Coriolis Effect, the continual perpetuation of unsubstantiateds claims can cause a belief to become an accepted fact. And as humans we tend to seek out support for our beliefs and minimize any contrary evidence.

E-Stat

12-15-2004, 01:59 PM

In other words, my original belief based on my observations and the observations of most other people was completely wrong.
Great reason to not make assumptions when there are multiple variables. Substituting a single variable one at a time eliminates that.

As well, the engineers who developed mp3 algorithms and Dolby Digital also used very carefully controlled conditions to fine tune their algorithms.
Perhaps that explains the underlying cause behind the limitations with mp3 music.

I really don't know what the solution is ...
I didn't realize a solution was needed. Ultimately I just find it amusing when some guy with absolutely no experience with my gear, music, or environment attempts to tell me it's resolving capabilities or what I hear from it.

rw

magictooth

12-15-2004, 03:23 PM

Ultimately I just find it amusing when some guy with absolutely no experience with my gear, music, or environment attempts to tell me it's resolving capabilities or what I hear from it.

rw
Ultimately, I find it highly amusing that audiophiles won't go and even try a simple DBT. Testing ICs is extremely simple. All you need is a willing volunteer. I've been reading some of the posts recently and have been greatly entertained by the logic that you've been espousing with regards to DBTs. The circular and specious reasoning that you've been putting forth in this post thread and some others is great.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the gist seems to be that most companies do not conduct DBTs, or if they do, they do not feel that the data collected is of any material significance. Because of this, you feel that this proves that DBTs in the audio world are completely useless as an evaluation tool. In essence, you feel that no DBT results in company advertising = DBTs are a useless tool = why bother doing DBTs = DBTs are a useless tool = no DBT results in company advertising and etc....

This kind of logic reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Lisa says to Homer, "well, this rock here keeps tigers away. Do you see any tigers around? Obviously this rock does a great job of keeping the tigers away," to which Homer blithely replies, "how much do you want for that rock?"

E-Stat

12-15-2004, 03:55 PM

Testing ICs is extremely simple. All you need is a willing volunteer.
FYI, that would be a SBT. Otherwise, the willing volunteer couldn't see where to properly plug the cables! DBTs require introducing some magic box(es), additional wires, switches, contacts, etc. all assumed to be audibly perfect such that they have no effect on the test.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the gist seems to be that most companies do not conduct DBTs, or if they do, they do not feel that the data collected is of any material significance. Because of this, you feel that this proves that DBTs in the audio world are completely useless as an evaluation tool.
They are as useful as THD, frequency response, damping factor specifications, etc. along with other basic metrics. They do what they do. My opinion, formed after speaking with a number of designers of high performance components is that they are not sensitive enough to be the final arbiter for product design.

rw

markw

12-15-2004, 04:49 PM

It was for me. I was sure my fat new cables were so much better than the hardware store zip cord I was using. My friend and I did one about 20 years ago. He worked nights and I worked days. Every day while I was out, he would change (or not) the speaker cables from one to the other for two weeks. I would simply have to "guess" which one was playing.

No time pressure, no clinical environment Familiar system, familiar surroundings, familiar music (whatever I chose) and best of all, no forced level matching. I could kerfutz with the volume all I wanted to!

Guess how well I did. yep. Right around 50%, or totally inconclusive. I had to buy him and his wife dinner.

So, if I read this thread correctly, the next response will be that this was speaker cables and not power cords, which is what this thread was about. My response to that would have to be why could this method not work with power cables?

magictooth

12-15-2004, 04:57 PM

FYI, that would be a SBT. Otherwise, the willing volunteer couldn't see where to properly plug the cables! DBTs require introducing some magic box(es), additional wires, switches, contacts, etc. all assumed to be audibly perfect such that they have no effect on the test.

rw
LOL, my apologies for that. What I meant was ABX testing. If you're digging that hard for niggling details, it seems you've likely come up with the dregs of objections in order to justify your position. I'm still curious as to why a well read, well connected, and well informed audiophile such as yourself is so absolutely resolute against even trying to ABX. ABXing ICs is easy because most if not all high end CDPs have multiple analog outs and most preamp/integrated have multiple inputs. Your volunteer would just need to make the change from input A to input B and mark down whether he changed inputs or not. There isn't a level matching issue, nor are there additional wires, switched, etc involved.

E-Stat

12-15-2004, 05:38 PM

If you're digging that hard for niggling details, it seems you've likely come up with the dregs of objections in order to justify your position.
Or, choice "B", pointing out that you are no longer just comparing ICs.

ABXing ICs is easy because most if not all high end CDPs have multiple analog outs and most preamp/integrated have multiple inputs.
Assuming of course you use a preamp with your CDP. I do not. With my CDP's 4 volt / 75 ohm output, I bypass my preamp (used solely for vinyl) altogether and use attenuators instead. The results for removing the superfluous gain stage are improved resolution and increased stage width.

Your volunteer would just need to make the change from input A to input B and mark down whether he changed inputs or not. There isn't a level matching issue, nor are there additional wires, switched, etc involved.
My CDP has two sets of outputs, but the second one is balanced.

rw

magictooth

12-17-2004, 12:33 AM

Or, choice "B", pointing out that you are no longer just comparing ICs.

Assuming of course you use a preamp with your CDP. I do not. With my CDP's 4 volt / 75 ohm output, I bypass my preamp (used solely for vinyl) altogether and use attenuators instead. The results for removing the superfluous gain stage are improved resolution and increased stage width.

My CDP has two sets of outputs, but the second one is balanced.

rw
markw had a good test for you a couple of posts up. You could try that and see how you do.

Sighted testing is such a bogus load of crap that I find it absolutely mind boggling that people still do and believe in it. Case(s) in point. I had a patient today tell me that this "magical" cold medication worked wonders. They could only buy it in the US so they stocked up on it last time they were down. They said that Neo-Citran (the Canadian brand) didn't do a thing, but that this US brand fixed them up in no time. Looking at the label, the product was Neo-Citran rebranded for the US. Exactly the same manufacturer and exactly the same formulation. Probably came from the same plant. In the same vein, I can't tell you how many times I've had people tell me that Advil works great for them, but Motrin doesn't touch the pain at all. It's really amazing how the mind can trick the body.

Goethe once pointed out that, "None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." It's surprising that some people who seem so well informed just absolutely refuse to even contemplate trying a new or different testing methodology. They say, "I know what I know, and I know what I hear so why bother listening to what others may have to say about a subject."

All that I can say to those people who haven't tried blind testing is give it a try. markw's suggestion is an easily implemented system. The worst that can happen is that you give up your belief in cable differences, and now you have more money to spend on quality music and movies. The best that can happen is that you can publish your results and shut the rest of us up for good.

FLZapped

12-17-2004, 07:53 AM

FLZapped

12-17-2004, 08:02 AM

Belief? My comments as to the benefits in my system are not based upon beliefs nor theory. They are based upon experience.

rw

And ever year millions of people experience buildings, airplanes, etc. disappear at the hands of a magician, yet we all know he couldn't really make them disappear, yet that is exactly what was experienced.

Experiences are not always accurate. Including you and your supposedly keen friend, who proabably has horrible hearing being he plays in a major symphony where the SPLs are often above the threshold for permanent hearing damage..

-Bruce

E-Stat

12-17-2004, 09:46 AM

Good for you, but that doesn't answer the question.
Here's the company phone number for VTL : (909) 627-5944.

rw

magictooth

12-17-2004, 10:09 AM

Ahh, finally consigned to audioreview forum purgatory. I guess that will put this thread to rest.

74cuda

12-17-2004, 06:10 PM

Very humerous thread,thanks for the laughs.I'm gonna upgrade the cord on my skillsaw,it ain't gettin enough juice,its only 16g.on a 15 amp SAW motor.

Mash

12-22-2004, 08:08 PM

74cuda
I had replaced the standard blade on my 2.25HP Skilsaw years ago with a tungsten-carbide blade, and the resulting focussed blade action, not to mention the clear bell-like tone I then got when I pulled the saw from a cut, was much improved w/r/t the standard blade, and with impressive resolution. But my Skilsaw's performance was simply not SOTA.

But when I changed the Skilsaw's powercord as recommended here- WOW. Now I get a full-bodied, highly -focussed and detailed response from the blade. Perfect cuts every time! But I do not, alas, use a DBT. I just have a nasty compulsion to conduct sighted Skilsaw tests. However, the clear bell-like tone I get when I pull the saw from a cut is now improved to SOTA resolution.

I just bet you will enjoy similar benefits if you changed your Skilsaw's powercord as recommended here. If fact, if you will send me $499.95 ......

woodman

12-23-2004, 07:13 PM

Belief? My comments as to the benefits in my system are not based upon beliefs nor theory. They are based upon experience.

Manufacturers of high performance gear have nothing to gain suggesting that someone else's product will help theirs unless their experience supports that notion. Which cords in what system(s) have you heard in your sixty years? Surely you are not basing your belief on theory alone.

(late edit: A search on another topic revealed another thread where you previously answered the question. My apologies. Your position as a retired repair tech is based on theory alone)

rw

You just don't get it, Mr.Stat. As I've explained many times before on these boards, it's your beliefs that create the sensory perceptions that you experience. It is then - and only then, that your experiences reinforce your beliefs ... they don't create the beliefs. And around and around it goes. I call them your personal ABEs and everyone has them. Often, they're hidden in the individual's sub-conscious, where we're not aware of their existence. But they're there, and they dictate and control what we perceive through our 5 senses - not only what we "hear", but also what we see, taste, smell, and touch as well. There is no debate whatsoever that the sensory perceptions that an individual experiences is real ... it's what created the reality that is the question.

Again, as I've already said: if the designer of any "high-end" product knew that a "better" power cord would improve the performance of the product that he designed (by even a slight amount), there is no power on earth that would keep him from insisting that the "better power cord" be included in the final version of the product when it's released for sale into the marketplace. Since good electronic design engineers are a valued commodity, the powers that be in the company he works for would be foolish to ignore him - especially since the mfg. cost of the "better" power cord is next to nothing in the first place.

Finally ... NO, my "position" regarding the after-market power cord nonsense is not based upon theory alone, as you claim - but by "hands-on" evaluations derived whilst servicing the power supply circuits in literally thousands (many thousands) of consumer electronic products of all sizes, shapes, descriptions, and market "class" (translation: "high-end" products). I also had experience in designing power supply circuitry, so I'm very familiar with all of the ins and outs of that aspect of electronics.

Although I consider it a monstrous waste of time, energy, and money to debate the sonic differences between I-Cs and speaker wire, there is at least the possibility that some audible differences might be observed. With power cords, however ... such a phenomenon stretches way past what is even remotely possible into the realms of pure fantasy. Simply cannot happen ... and dat's da troot!

cam

12-23-2004, 08:09 PM

I'm keeping score, Woodman 1,482, E-stat zilch. I hope I never get stomped this badly by Woodman, but then again, I am firmly grounded to reality with a sky that is blue.

FLZapped

12-24-2004, 06:10 AM

Here's the company phone number for VTL : (909) 627-5944.

rw

So in other words, you don't really know the answer. -Bruce :p

E-Stat

12-24-2004, 06:18 AM

So in other words, you don't really know the answer. -Bruce :p
No, you seem to challenge the discussions I've had with Luke Manley. Call him.

rw

E-Stat

12-24-2004, 08:05 AM

You just don't get it, Mr.Stat. As I've explained many times before on these boards...
I continue to marvel why suggestions of sonic improvements of any kind render such protest by some engineers. You'd think that such was an affront to their religion -- perhaps that is the case. This situation is exactly like that in the early sixties when solid state amps first became prevalent. The engineers trumpeted their wonderful work. Most, however, were dreadful sounding. Might have measured great, but were woefully inadequate in some areas as compared with the best tube designs. It took many years for them to actually listen to their work instead of looking at the charts and finally understand what they got wrong. The little $30 Sonic Impact T amp is arguably better sounding than any sixties SS amp within its power output.

Or in the eighties when the CD entered the market. Same story. Perfect sound forever. NOT ! The new emperor was again stark naked. Once again, the musically astute complained about the obvious sonic limitations. Boy was my first CD player hard sounding. And once again, the engineers started listening to their work and went back to the drawing boards. Today we have a much improved product. My $69 Toshiba DVD player is a nice sounding digital source. And still, while the Redbook standard at its best is very good, it remains lacking in some respects as compared with the best analog sources.

History continues to repeat itself. Methinks some engineers doth protest too much. And never learn.

Again, as I've already said: if the designer of any "high-end" product knew that a "better" power cord would improve the performance...
Repeating speculation doesn't make it so. By all means call the three engineers with whom I have already discussed this issue. You might learn something.

With power cords, however ... such a phenomenon stretches way past what is even remotely possible into the realms of pure fantasy. Simply cannot happen ... and dat's da troot!
I don't advocate most folks going out any buying aftermarket cords for their systems. The improvements are indeed subtle and apparent only when using very good source recordings in very high resolution systems. Of my three systems, I use them only with the $40k one.

I'm convinced that in time engineers will again figure out the exact mechanism(s) responsible and find more cost effective ways of solving the problem. Who knows, we may all be listening to battery powered systems in another decade or so.

Merry Christmas, Woodman.

rw

FLZapped

12-25-2004, 02:52 PM

No, you seem to challenge the discussions I've had with Luke Manley. Call him.

rw

So you had discussions, yet in all the information you garnered from them, nowhere did you receive the information needed to answer my question to you, period. I have no need to call them. I was asking you if you had the answer, you didn't and don't.

-Bruce

E-Stat

12-25-2004, 05:35 PM

So you had discussions, yet in all the information you garnered from them, nowhere did you receive the information needed to answer my question to you, period. I have no need to call them. I was asking you if you had the answer, you didn't and don't.
Lets see if I can help out with the part you continue to miss. Did VTL design the MB-450 to at least meet the minimum specification for delivering a 10 amp draw by supplying a 16 gauge cord rated at 13 amps? Of course they did. Are you still harping on that?

Is merely "meeting spec" all there is to maximizing audible performance? Perhaps with your family radios it is. Luke Manley and a host of other engineers have found audible benefits to going beyond just meeting the basic power requirements.

rw

Stu-r

12-29-2004, 04:51 AM

It seems that if there is concern about less than 1 or 2 percent line fluctuation affecting the amplifier's output, then power supply regulation is in question on those monoblock amplifiers.

If so, just run some external leads to the power supply capacitors and connect a bank of big ones. If their voltages are low enough, you can externally connect a couple of those huge automobile sound capacitors. The ones that look like 1 quart ice cream containers. I think you can get them up to 2 farads if I'm not mistaken. If they don't fill the bill, you can use an external bank of capacitors that will meet the voltage requirements.

I've known people to do this with good results. Those Denon designers aren't perfect you know.

woodman

12-29-2004, 09:28 AM

It seems that if there is concern about less than 1 or 2 percent line fluctuation affecting the amplifier's output, then power supply regulation is in question on those monoblock amplifiers.

No, Stu-r ... the "concern" is with those that try to use an absolutely meaningless scenario to try and justify their waste of untold numbers of dollars on the purchase of a product that cannot possibly benefit them in any way other than "bragging rights" and/or "pride of ownership". They're merely "grasping at straws" ... any old "straw" will do.

If a 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 percent line fluctuation actually had a negative impact on the amp's output, THEN the power supply design would indeed be suspect. In my experience, I've never encountered it happening.

Stu-r

12-29-2004, 03:29 PM

No, Stu-r ... the "concern" is with those that try to use an absolutely meaningless scenario to try and justify their waste of untold numbers of dollars on the purchase of a product that cannot possibly benefit them in any way other than "bragging rights" and/or "pride of ownership". They're merely "grasping at straws" ... any old "straw" will do.

If a 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 percent line fluctuation actually had a negative impact on the amp's output, THEN the power supply design would indeed be suspect. In my experience, I've never encountered it happening.

I understand. But think of the bragging rights with a bank of capacitors lined up in racks in the listening room like old Leyden jars. The largest filters I've ever seen in a commercial audio amplifier were 500,000 microfarads. 1/2 farad. A 6 or 10 farad bank would be unequalled ... except in a lightning display or a tester for transient spikes of many joules. More Farads than Faraday himself ever dreamed of.

And you could use battery charger cables to connect the array to reduce the resistance. Maybe 3/8"copper bus bars? you'd need a resistance to control the bank's startup "drink" and a by-pass switch when they reached quiescence. A switch like the classics on electric chairs. A circuit breaker for a power sub-station would fill the bill.

Mash

12-29-2004, 07:07 PM

Stu-r

Looks to me like you won't let Woodman get you down..... Good for you.

Woodman seems to have no sympathy for how wall plugs can cause Audiophile Performance Anxiety (Similar to Male Performance Anxiety, and most Audiophiles are men.....)

I just used a Protek 222 on some of my wall plugs and EEEK! I got 119.7 Volts at 59.97 Hz! This means the voltage is 0.25% below 120 VAC while the line frequency is 0.5% below 60 Hz...... Merely switching the amp power cords would be udderly useless like the proverbial teats on a bull.

So your suggestion of adding a bank of capacitors to stabilize the power amp's power supply certainly makes a lot more sense than merely switching power cords. I think everyone here considering upgrading their amp power cord would be far better off adopting your suggestion of adding a bank of capacitors instead. Way cool suggestion.

Heck, Woodman has made unkind comments about mere poseurs using tube amps and there I have to agree because I use Futtermans with Tympani which makes me exempt from Woodman's anti-tube tirade. Come to think about this, those using any good tube amp with Maggies should probably be exempt from Woodman's unkind comments about mere poseurs using tube amps.

Geoffcin

12-29-2004, 07:34 PM

I just used a Protek 222 on some of my wall plugs and EEEK! I got 119.7 Volts at 59.97 Hz! This means the voltage is 0.25% below 120 VAC while the line frequency is 0.5% below 60 Hz...... Merely switching the amp power cords would be udderly useless like the proverbial teats on a bull.

Then why don't you do some real science, since you appear to have the tools to do it. Try measuring the wall current while under load, preferably when you have your system at maximum normal use. I have, and it led me to bring in a dedicated 20 amp line just for my amps.

Now, while I agree that a power cord is NOT going to change the amount of current at the wall, I have documented that a larger power lead (my dedicated 20 amp line) has lead to a much more stable current supply at the wall.

Mash

12-29-2004, 08:00 PM

Well, you see, I have the different amps on different house circuits. Futties on some, the Ampzilla on another, Velodynes somewhere else..... This is what happens when you tri-amp... or is it quad-amp? I think the Velodyne amps count too....

Can't run the entire rig on one circuit...at least not for very long unless I jumper the circuit breaker. But 1560 tube-&-SS watts after the X-over gives a way-cool lifelike sound......

You know.... the balanced mike-line from the control center feeds the DeCoursey, the DeCoursey splits at 100 Hz and feeds the Ampzilla [bass panels] & Velodynes while the above-100 Hz feeds the Futties and 1000 Hz split which feeds the other Futties....... And the amps are near their speakers....

But maybe you are confusing what the power company supplies to what finally gets through your house wiring? Remember, the supply from the power company is essentially infinite and you cannot change it, hence Stu-r's way-cool suggestion for those who have 'concerns'....

E-Stat

12-30-2004, 12:00 PM

Heck, Woodman has made unkind comments about mere poseurs using tube amps and there I have to agree because I use Futtermans with Tympani which makes me exempt from Woodman's anti-tube tirade. Come to think about this, those using any good tube amp with Maggies should probably be exempt from Woodman's unkind comments about mere poseurs using tube amps.
So, Woodie is not against tube amps, only poseurs who use tube amps? What constitutes a tube poseur? And only when running certain speakers?

LOL!

rw

Geoffcin

12-30-2004, 12:12 PM

So, Woodie is not against tube amps, only poseurs who use tube amps? What constitutes a tube poseur? And only when running certain speakers?

LOL!

rw

It's mashie that think all tube amps OTHER than OTLs are poseurs. Even further, he belives that OTL tech started and stopped with NYAL.

E-Stat

12-30-2004, 01:34 PM

It's mashie that think all tube amps OTHER than OTLs are poseurs. Even further, he belives that OTL tech started and stopped with NYAL.
It is this statement by Mash that I responded to:

... because I use Futtermans with Tympani which makes me exempt from Woodman's anti-tube tirade.

Well, that doesn't seem to jive with Woodie's comments made of late in another thread:

... There I found him touting vacuum tubes of all things, which flies directly and firmly against anything and everything resembling common sense, IMO. Having had to deal with those obstreperous devices on a daily basis for a whole bunch of years, I celebrated wildly at what I thought to be their demise and burial in the mid-1970s.

He is railing against vacuum tubes, not output transformers. And what do Tympanis have to do with tubes anyway?

I like Maggies and OTL amps. I clearly remember first hearing a pair of T-1Us back in '74 and what was being played on them at the time! It was those speakers that turned me into a planar fan. Shortly thereafter I bought a pair. More recently, I've heard 20.1s being driven by Joule Electra Rite of Passage OTL amps at Harry Pearson's. The sound was very engaging. I would be very happy with such a combination. Connected by Valhallas no less.

rw

Stu-r

12-30-2004, 02:11 PM

So, Woodie is not against tube amps, only poseurs who use tube amps? What constitutes a tube poseur? And only when running certain speakers?

LOL!

rw

I've heard a few good tube amps. The ones I've owned were good but not remarkable. The Futterman was one. There was another with zero feedback. And there was the famous ALTEC 35 watt monoblock theater amp. Can't remember the tubes. I think the original used a pair of 2A3s but was superseded by one with pentodes. But it had very little feedback and the audible rise time on orchestral crescendos was astounding. I once worked at RCA's school in NY .. in the early '50s. The ALTEC amp was impressive and I've not heard anything like it before or since. Except I once opened the feedback loops on a Dynaco and got similar dynamic response. Too bad the designers all had to produce infinitesimally low distortion at the expense of dynamic performance to sell anything. Today, I can't find a tube amp that appeals to me. The low power ones do no more than my Behringer HA-4700 headphone amp. Which you can get for about a hundred bucks and is used in many recording studios. unless you make your own masters, what's the point of paying for equipment that betters the studio mastering equipment?.

musicoverall

12-31-2004, 07:22 AM

Connected by Valhallas no less.
rw

E-Stat, I know this isn't the place to ask this question but here you are and here I am, so here goes!

I auditioned the Valhalla's and knew that was the final touch I wanted for the sound of my system. However, I couldn't justify the cost so I demo'd the lesser Nordosts beginning with their entry level cable, telling myself I'd buy the cable that was the most cost effective. All the way to the SPM, Nordosts didn't work! Only the Valhalla sounded proper. What gives? I would think Nordost's sonic signature would be set and as you move up the ladder, you'd just get more of a good thing. But I've heard other cheaper cables that worked better in my system than Red Dawn or Blue Heavens - better than everything except the Valhallas. Any similar experience? I'm a little confused by this.

risabet

01-02-2005, 12:25 AM

E-Stat

01-02-2005, 08:38 AM

E-Stat, I know this isn't the place to ask this question but here you are and here I am, so here goes!
Well, just consider my comments to be anectotal.

I auditioned the Valhalla's and knew that was the final touch I wanted for the sound of my system. However, I couldn't justify the cost so I demo'd the lesser Nordosts.. .
To tell you truth, I've only heard the Valhallas in the Nordost line. Likewise, they are way out of my budget as well. While I don't advocate using cables as "tone controls" as some have suggested, I detect sonic differences from cable to cable that belie basic LRC specs. FWIW, I particularly like the middle of the pack JPS Labs cables.

rw

woodman

01-02-2005, 04:10 PM

I like the Audioquest cables for sonics, deeper tighter bass, better focus, smoother, more extended highs etc. and looks. PS Audio has a good reputation but I haven't heard their cables in a long time.

Way back in the day I made a power cord from some Kimber 16 strand speaker cables for a modified Dyna Stereo 70. Opened up the sound dramatically.

Regardless, I know the amps you have, they will certainly benefit from a beefier power cord. Good luck!

If this post wasn't so patently absurd, it would have me rolling on the floor in uncontrollable, hysterical laughter with tears rolling down my cheeks! This could possibly have resulted in my having a heart attack or a stroke - which would not have been a good thing at all.

Since there isn't a single solitary thing being said here that has even the slightest chance of being true (since all of these statements and claims are physically impossible), I cannot bring myself to comment on it other than to call it what it is ...