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Stoiven
08-26-2004, 12:35 PM
Someone help either validate what I am noticing or dispell my insanity. Is it me...or are the bulk of todays CD's mixed so loud that clipping is happening. Nearly all of the hottest artists I pick up on CD have been mixed so close to the digital limit (0dB) that when a kick drum hits or there are many transients...a small (or large) amount of distortion can be heard on my system. Now...if I play these cd's through a boom box or a "regular" stereo...I do not notice the distortion as much. But when I run them through my car stereo, I can hear it even at the lowest volume possible. Can someone explain what is going on here? I am losing my mind. Why would this distortion not be as evident on all audio equipment???

This Guy
08-26-2004, 01:26 PM
I noticed something like that on a couple of my red hot chili peppers cd's. Whenever the guitar really gets into it, I notice some distortion in the right speaker...it sounded like a low bitrate MP3. I flip flopped my right and left speakers and this faint distortion still persists. All my other cd's were fine though. It sounded like the guitar amp was clipping, really quite annoying because I love those cd's.

Stoiven
08-26-2004, 01:40 PM
I noticed something like that on a couple of my red hot chili peppers cd's. Whenever the guitar really gets into it, I notice some distortion in the right speaker...it sounded like a low bitrate MP3. I flip flopped my right and left speakers and this faint distortion still persists. All my other cd's were fine though. It sounded like the guitar amp was clipping, really quite annoying because I love those cd's.

Yes...this is probably a good example. I would really love to hear of others experiences with this distortion in todays recordings. I just wrote Bob Ludwig who is a big name in the Mastering industry asking him about the trend in todays CD's. We shall see if I get an answer. But it is obvious to me that there is a push to make CD's louder and it is crushing the quality in the process.

Stoiven
08-26-2004, 02:53 PM
This is too cool...I just got a reply from Bob Ludwig himself regarding recordings today. He kindly answered two questions for me.

Hi Stephen,

** is there a pressure to master CD's at this high level..
YES! It has only been POSSIBLE to do it with the invention of digital domain "look-ahead" limiters which are about 10 yrs old now.

.and is it ultimately hindering sound quality??
YES! It probably contributes to the lack of sales as much as anything I bet.
Who wants to put on a record and listen a second time when it is such an assault?
I always say I'm glad they weren't invented when the Beatles were making records!
Compression CAN be a good thing for pop music, but generally it's over the top now. It CAN'T go much higher than it is because there is physically no more room left.

Bob


So...a little validation. I just hope that more people push back on the record labels to TURN IT DOWN!! Please...post your thoughts.

cam
08-26-2004, 03:57 PM
This has nothing to do with a mix that is too loud. But Theory Of A Deadman has a song called Make Up Your Mind and right at the beginning Where he says "make up your mind and I'll make up mine" you can hear his voice crackling. It doesn't matter what volume. I thought maybe my speakers were resonating. I took that disc to do some demoing at Audio/Video. We used an Anthem amp with Studio 20's and same thing. I can't believe that they mass produced this flaw. I guess it is like proof reading an essay, something can always be missed.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-26-2004, 04:21 PM
This is too cool...I just got a reply from Bob Ludwig himself regarding recordings today. He kindly answered two questions for me.

Hi Stephen,

** is there a pressure to master CD's at this high level..
YES! It has only been POSSIBLE to do it with the invention of digital domain "look-ahead" limiters which are about 10 yrs old now.

.and is it ultimately hindering sound quality??
YES! It probably contributes to the lack of sales as much as anything I bet.
Who wants to put on a record and listen a second time when it is such an assault?
I always say I'm glad they weren't invented when the Beatles were making records!
Compression CAN be a good thing for pop music, but generally it's over the top now. It CAN'T go much higher than it is because there is physically no more room left.

Bob


So...a little validation. I just hope that more people push back on the record labels to TURN IT DOWN!! Please...post your thoughts.

Use the search engine and put in the words SACD vs CD unfair competition, there is a looooooooooooong drawn out thread that discusses this in great detail. This is a marketing issue, not a mixing or mastering issue. Its the marketing departments at the studios who have pushed this trend, not the audio or mastering engineers. If you want them to quit the practice, then stop buying CD, and write to the studios and tell them why you are doing it. When the money stops rolling in, the studios tend to listen a little more carefully.

The reality is it doesn't hurt sound quality until it hits digital 0 or maximum peak for long periods of time. Otherwise you can just turn down the volume, and never know its been compressed to death. I mean what point of reference could you compare it to?

As far as guitars and distortion, they have been best friends for years now!

Stoiven
08-26-2004, 06:02 PM
Agreed about the labels pushing the trend. I apologize for suggesting that it was a problem with the masterers. They obviously know what to do...they are just being forced to do this to the recordings.

Stoiven
08-27-2004, 10:49 AM
Also...when you say it doesn't matter until it hits 0dB for long periods of time...this is true....but when you have 1000+ clipped signals over the course of a song it is truly noticeable in a big way. Everytime a bass kickdrum hits....SMUSH...you lose detail in the other instruments. It is most prevelant in rock music.

ToddB
08-28-2004, 01:15 AM
The suits at the major labels dreamt this one up. They decided that a recording would be more likely to sell if it was "louder" than the competition. So, they have the recordings compressed to death to make the dynamic range more limited and uniform, crank up the overall signal level as high as they can now that so much of the signal falls within a narrow window, and any peaks that extend above that window despite the compression just get lopped off. It's the lopped off peaks that cause the distortion, and the cranked average signal level that makes the recording sound louder. The only reason they get away with this is, as you said, because it's harder to hear on mass market equipment.

toenail
08-28-2004, 02:40 AM
And all this time I thought I was losing my mind. I had previously not been able to figure out why many new cd's were sounding distorted when pushed even a little. The above posts explain it perfectly. How unfortunate for those who enjoy listening to the actual details of the music.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-30-2004, 03:55 PM
Also...when you say it doesn't matter until it hits 0dB for long periods of time...this is true....but when you have 1000+ clipped signals over the course of a song it is truly noticeable in a big way. Everytime a bass kickdrum hits....SMUSH...you lose detail in the other instruments. It is most prevelant in rock music.

Stoiven,
That is only if it passes 0db for an extended period of time. You can just nip 0db 1000 times without emitting a noticeable(or audible) distortion. When it becomes readily audible is when it passes 0db and the clipping lasts for an extended period of time. 1000+ clipps are pretty hard to detect on mass market equipment unless is it pretty severe. Also, you have to keep in mind that what you perceive as unintentional distortion, can be distortion that is artistically driven(like with the use of the guitar and the distortion box), this may be exactly the effect the artist are trying to acheive. Remember, their market is not audiophiles.

I think largely no one has noticed this practice has been going on for years now. Its only now it was mentioned and talked about that we are noticing the loudness issue.

Stoiven
08-31-2004, 08:53 AM
Ok...I see what you are saying. Let me just make my position a little clearer too. I can actually listen to these CD's without issue. I like the artists and annot help but really enjoy these recordings. And as it turns out....the distortion from these CD's is not that unbearable. However, I do notice the difference between a recording that was done today..and one that was done 10 years ago. Sure...the new recordings are loud and in your face...but there is something about a recording that carries different levels throughout and uses dynamic range to a positive effect. A recording that has been done today, like Godsmack, Creed, or Linkin Park, they are pretty much a constant volume for the entire song and it sort of takes away from the overall effect. It is not a horrible thing, I would just think that the CD itself does not need to be so incredibly loud. I would rather have tame recording levels where only the transients make it to the highest levels. It is totally a preference thing and all may not agree. And you are right about the fact that so many listeners in this genere could care less about a thing that I am saying. But bottom line...a heavy metal CD from 1990 should not sound better than one from 2000+...and in fact...it does. It makes no difference on mass market equipment....but when I am playing it on my bi-amplified car stereo system...I notice the difference. Ohh sure..I still rock...because I love the music...but I know that when there is a lot of different things going on in the music...and I can;t pick out each one....I know why that is.

Anyway, there are some good points made here...and I am sure that louder will always be better in the big land of competition, but I know better. Quality...not quanitity is better here.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-31-2004, 09:27 AM
Ok...I see what you are saying. Let me just make my position a little clearer too. I can actually listen to these CD's without issue. I like the artists and annot help but really enjoy these recordings. And as it turns out....the distortion from these CD's is not that unbearable. However, I do notice the difference between a recording that was done today..and one that was done 10 years ago. Sure...the new recordings are loud and in your face...but there is something about a recording that carries different levels throughout and uses dynamic range to a positive effect. A recording that has been done today, like Godsmack, Creed, or Linkin Park, they are pretty much a constant volume for the entire song and it sort of takes away from the overall effect. It is not a horrible thing, I would just think that the CD itself does not need to be so incredibly loud. I would rather have tame recording levels where only the transients make it to the highest levels. It is totally a preference thing and all may not agree. And you are right about the fact that so many listeners in this genere could care less about a thing that I am saying. But bottom line...a heavy metal CD from 1990 should not sound better than one from 2000+...and in fact...it does. It makes no difference on mass market equipment....but when I am playing it on my bi-amplified car stereo system...I notice the difference. Ohh sure..I still rock...because I love the music...but I know that when there is a lot of different things going on in the music...and I can;t pick out each one....I know why that is.

Anyway, there are some good points made here...and I am sure that louder will always be better in the big land of competition, but I know better. Quality...not quanitity is better here.

I am sure that things will change in the future. The music industry is going through a really rough time right now, and I am sure there is alot of self reflection going on. As sales of CD's slide slowly downward, I am sure they will be looking at all phases of production, to see if that sales trend can be reversed. My suggestion to them as an insider would be to look at their price structure, and to instruct the RIAA to cease and desist any further actions against file sharers. I am sure the publics resentment to this practice is contributing to the problem.

Stoiven
08-31-2004, 11:10 AM
I am sure that things will change in the future. The music industry is going through a really rough time right now, and I am sure there is alot of self reflection going on. As sales of CD's slide slowly downward, I am sure they will be looking at all phases of production, to see if that sales trend can be reversed. My suggestion to them as an insider would be to look at their price structure, and to instruct the RIAA to cease and desist any further actions against file sharers. I am sure the publics resentment to this practice is contributing to the problem.

YES!! I am sure of this. Also, I am sure that if they consider that if there is some quality to be saved by making quality CD productions, then I would be even MORE likely to by the real CD and not download something. Where if the CD exhibits no significant quality differences over the download...who needs to go further. The thing is...many people out there already don't know how to properly rip a CD and preserve the original levels. Many rippers are by default...set up to maximize the output levels. This creates something that is not desireable to send to CD and play on a nice system. In addition, the process of compressing and decompressing to do this is quite "lossy" and result in a sub par copy of the CD. That is IF the original copy has anything to preserve. If not..who is to say that an mp3 rip-off isn't just as good. So that said, I would think that it would be in the RIAA's best interest to produce quality recordings where the originals offer a significant sound improvement over the copies. Just another 2 cents.