Please, for the love of God

[cam]

Lets not mention the word Bose again. 99 out of 100 people bash it and then there is one who does not. And then all of a sudden we have an audio review discussion forest fire that will just not go away. Bose is not even entry level equipment yet their price suggest otherwise. But who cares, let those suckers fall between the cracks. If you are on a sinking ship, you can only pull so many people into your raft. In fact, if I was on one of those safety rafts, I would pose the question, "are you a Bose lover," if they said yes, guess what, not only are they a Bose lover but they must also be a good swimmer.

[Mash]

The people who use this site are untypical. I do not discuss audio systems with co-workers because my co-workers think anyone who obsesses over audio equipment is nuts..... Except for the rare few co-workers who have heard my system. Only then are they willing to think the effort is worthwhile. But I am very careful whom I socialize with.... jealousy can inflame company politics.

Most people only want something that plays music, and most people do not attend recitals, either, so thay will not mind 'some' inaccuracy. So Bose has a large market to keep their ship afloat.

And remember, if all audiophiles bought only one system and used it for the rest of their lives, where would audio equipment manufacturers and dealers be? Therefore, changing fashion in euphonic colorations will help foster the sales turnover that keeps the market alive.

[skeptic]

I really don't understand where you have the audacity to tell people posting on this board what to discuss and what not to discuss. This board has been open to any and every subject and to all opinions within very liberal bounds of civility. That is why so many of us find it an attractive web site. If you don't like a particular thread, then might I suggest you pass it up and read something you find more interesting.

The last time I looked, Bose made audio equipment and in fact was a large and successful manufacturer of it, and this site is called Audio Review Forums. It seems a perfectly reasonable subject to discuss if some of the people want to waste their time on it. There is a lot of equipment I also don't care for but if that's what other people wish to discuss, that's fine with me. BTW, even Audio Asylum doesn't have an anti Bose policy. It can be bashed there also as much as the participants want to.

Since I personally own one Bose product and suddenly after thirty five years have greatly renewed my intrerest and increased my satisfaction with it, I am only too happy to discuss it here with anyone who cares to. Perhaps someone else will have the red blooded American propensity to tinker with a pair of 901s in his basement the way many people tinkered before the invention of the computer and the internet limited their world to a keyboard and a screen. So far, I haven't heard of anyone trying my idea, all they do is complain. Why don't you take me up on my challenge, spend a few hundred bucks and see if you can't get results comparable to what I got. I've already given you everything you need to know but a blueprint. Maybe then you will suddenly want to post about it too.

[Worf101]

I really don't understand where you have the audacity to tell people posting on this board what to discuss and what not to discuss. This board has been open to any and every subject and to all opinions within very liberal bounds of civility. That is why so many of us find it an attractive web site. If you don't like a particular thread, then might I suggest you pass it up and read something you find more interesting.

The last time I looked, Bose made audio equipment and in fact was a large and successful manufacturer of it, and this site is called Audio Review Forums. It seems a perfectly reasonable subject to discuss if some of the people want to waste their time on it. There is a lot of equipment I also don't care for but if that's what other people wish to discuss, that's fine with me. BTW, even Audio Asylum doesn't have an anti Bose policy. It can be bashed there also as much as the participants want to.

Since I personally own one Bose product and suddenly after thirty five years have greatly renewed my intrerest and increased my satisfaction with it, I am only too happy to discuss it here with anyone who cares to. Perhaps someone else will have the red blooded American propensity to tinker with a pair of 901s in his basement the way many people tinkered before the invention of the computer and the internet limited their world to a keyboard and a screen. So far, I haven't heard of anyone trying my idea, all they do is complain. Why don't you take me up on my challenge, spend a few hundred bucks and see if you can't get results comparable to what I got. I've already given you everything you need to know but a blueprint. Maybe then you will suddenly want to post about it too.

Much as I don't like what some people say, I wore a uniform for 3.5 years to defend their right to say it. I took that oath almost 30 plus years ago. Unlike some people I take my oaths very seriously. Say what you will but realize some speach bring consequences.

Da Worfster :cool:

[cam]

I really don't understand where you have the audacity to tell people posting on this board what to discuss and what not to discuss. This board has been open to any and every subject and to all opinions within very liberal bounds of civility. That is why so many of us find it an attractive web site. If you don't like a particular thread, then might I suggest you pass it up and read something you find more interesting.

The last time I looked, Bose made audio equipment and in fact was a large and successful manufacturer of it, and this site is called Audio Review Forums. It seems a perfectly reasonable subject to discuss if some of the people want to waste their time on it. There is a lot of equipment I also don't care for but if that's what other people wish to discuss, that's fine with me. BTW, even Audio Asylum doesn't have an anti Bose policy. It can be bashed there also as much as the participants want to.

Since I personally own one Bose product and suddenly after thirty five years have greatly renewed my intrerest and increased my satisfaction with it, I am only too happy to discuss it here with anyone who cares to. Perhaps someone else will have the red blooded American propensity to tinker with a pair of 901s in his basement the way many people tinkered before the invention of the computer and the internet limited their world to a keyboard and a screen. So far, I haven't heard of anyone trying my idea, all they do is complain. Why don't you take me up on my challenge, spend a few hundred bucks and see if you can't get results comparable to what I got. I've already given you everything you need to know but a blueprint. Maybe then you will suddenly want to post about it too.
I proposed something, you told me to stick it and that is fine. Everybody can state what they will, including me. Audacity, hardly, I was merely trying to show anybody that read this post, and many many other Bose posts that Bose is a garbage product and people, a high % of people are always waiting in the wings to spring out and pounce on those few people that got ripped off by Bose. I will always speak my mind as it sounds you do too. If that is audacity then I guess there are more then 300 million in North America alone.

[skeptic]

Cam, I don't like your tone which was confrontational from the start.

It is one thing to discuss who has a right to discuss what subject. That is defined by the rules of the owners of this board and interpreted and enforced by the administrators. Their decision alone determines what subjects may or may not be discussed and the limits of civility participants can go to in their discussion.

As for your statement "Bose is a garbage product" is dead wrong. Based on my experience with the one product that I bought, it is of very high quality, the merits or shortcomings of its design philosophy notwithstanding. They used the best quality parts including military grade parts and excellent workmanship manufacturing it. The fact that even today after 35 years, I was offered a 50% discount on a trade in for a new 901 demonstrates an astonishing policy of standing behind their products. If what you said about their products being garbage is true, how do you explain that this privately owned company has been in business for nearly 40 years and has a sales volume of over nine hundred million dollars. Apparantly there are a lot of customers all over the world who disagree with you. Can you name even one other privately owned manufacturer of consumer products who can make that claim? I don't think so. As I said, if you don't want to participate in discussions about Bose products or any other products, why don't you move on and allow other people who do have their say?

[cam]

Cam, I don't like your tone which was confrontational from the start.

It is one thing to discuss who has a right to discuss what subject. That is defined by the rules of the owners of this board and interpreted and enforced by the administrators. Their decision alone determines what subjects may or may not be discussed and the limits of civility participants can go to in their discussion.

As for your statement "Bose is a garbage product" is dead wrong. Based on my experience with the one product that I bought, it is of very high quality, the merits or shortcomings of its design philosophy notwithstanding. They used the best quality parts including military grade parts and excellent workmanship manufacturing it. The fact that even today after 35 years, I was offered a 50% discount on a trade in for a new 901 demonstrates an astonishing policy of standing behind their products. If what you said about their products being garbage is true, how do you explain that this privately owned company has been in business for nearly 40 years and has a sales volume of over nine hundred million dollars. Apparantly there are a lot of customers all over the world who disagree with you. Can you name even one other privately owned manufacturer of consumer products who can make that claim? I don't think so. As I said, if you don't want to participate in discussions about Bose products or any other products, why don't you move on and allow other people who do have their say?
I was laughing when I was writing my original post. Boy Skep, you really don't know me at all. As far as me wanting or not wanting to participate in discussions about Bose, most threads on Bose are about 100 people putting it down and 1 lonely dude defending it. Same same same, always is. I guess it can be amusing sometimes, I guess. And yes Skep I know that I don't need to read any Bose threads, but you sure have alot of audacity to say so. Hehehehe!

[gonefishin]

There certainly are alot of happy Bose owners out there...and... They're not only happy...but also proud of the product they own.


we should all be so lucky :)

[kexodusc]

Cam, don't try to censor anything audio-related on these forums...that's an uphill battle you just can't win even if what you propose has some merit in it.
Best to avoid flame wars, they just drag on.
Instead, maybe you should have made the suggestion that if people here feel the need to start flame wars, they do so with red blooded American propensity (to borrow a clever phrase from Skep) and post their ideas under their usual monikers, not bogus user names.

[Resident Loser]

...to dictate what can and can't be discussed at this site?

If there are those who are happy with and therefore wish to speak about a particular product, who the he!! are you to say they can't or shouldn't do so. If you disagree, that's OK...just as it's OK for anyone who wishes to respond to your statements.

If a product fills a need, satisfies it's owner AND does so with a minimun of muss or fuss what difference is it to you? Who got "ripped off"?

Ooo, they're little plastic cubes, and it's not really a subwoofer, and it's overpriced, and whatever...somebody puttin' a gun to your head and sayin' "buy this" or else?

There are more than a few products that utilize plastic substructures in their designs, Bose never refers to their "bass module" as a sub and insofar as price is concerned that is something determined by tooling and R&D, advertising costs and market "value"...a big chunk of which is WAF...are they worth the price? that, is a relative issue.

There are many out there who swear by after-market ICs ,speaker wire, hospital-grade AC connectors...we who disagree with that premise are told "I hear a difference" and are expected to take these anecdotal responses as gospel...yet when the shoe is on the other foot, all bets are off. How many times have I read "you don't know what to listen for"...

"...most threads on Bose are about 100 people putting it down and 1 lonely dude defending it..."

I didn't see anyone defending anything, I saw someone thumbing his nose at the feeding frenzy started by an obliquely related post about a Volvo...and the out came the torch-bearing villagers with the lynch-mob mentality who didn't like it.

Go ahead, "speak your mind"...I could use a good laugh...

jimHJJ(...Bose, Bose, Bose, Bose...there's 901s and 301s and 101s and noise-cancelling headphones and Wave Radios and Acoustimass systems and Lifestyle systems and pro gear...Bose, Bose, Bose, Bose...)

.

[cam]

I guess I started another perpetual Bose thread and I'm that 1 lonely dude!

[cam]

Cam, don't try to censor anything audio-related on these forums...that's an uphill battle you just can't win even if what you propose has some merit in it.
Best to avoid flame wars, they just drag on.
Instead, maybe you should have made the suggestion that if people here feel the need to start flame wars, they do so with red blooded American propensity (to borrow a clever phrase from Skep) and post their ideas under their usual monikers, not bogus user names.
Your advice has been noted. I was trying to keep the flame wars on Bose to a minimum and ended up starting an inferno.

[dmb_fan]

Skeptic-

I will eventually have access to a pair of used 901 series VI speakers once I convince my father to upgrade to something (anything!) better. I am not a huge Bose fan, and I am much more pleased with my current speakers than I ever have been with his 901's, but because there are certain things the 901's do better than many speaker models, I'm very interested to learn about the modifications you made to your 901's to improve them. Please share.

Thanks,
Adam

PS- In the interest of preventing carpal-tunnel syndrom in fanatic bose haters, I'd like to ask them to please refrain from lighting me up with the no-highs, no-lows rhetoric. I honestly won't even read it, so typing it will simply be a waste of your time.

[dmb_fan]

Skeptic, nevermind. I did a search and read some of your old threads on the 901 modifications.

I've been thinking about how I would add tweeters to my father's 901's since he bought them in 1992. I couldn't get over the notion that I'd like to cut the 4.5" drivers off at 3Khz and add dome tweeters for the top three octaves or so. I always got stuck in thinking that this would require modification of the Bose EQ, which is over my head.

You've introduced a completely new idea to me by suggesting running tweeters through a separate amp with independant volume control. This eliminates one of the major difficulties in pairing low-powered tweeters requiring passive crossovers with the high-powered drivers in the 901's.

I have no doubt that you've found some success in this design. With proper amplification (the old man has 250wpc into 8 ohms), the 901's can reproduce the size and scale of live music so effortlessly, I always thought it was a shame that it required such severe compromise in the top octaves.

Have you thought about using a parametric EQ to cut off the 901's at 3Khz or 4Khz where the 4.5" drivers begin to beam? This should result in a more uniform dispersion pattern in the top two or three octaves. Give it a shot and let me know what you think.

PS- If you add a second pair of 901's and stack them on top of your existing pair, you'll vertically limit the dispersion of the speakers, much like a d'appolito design. Many designers feel this is advantageous as it helps limit early reflections from the floor and ceiling, but since the main selling point of the 901's is the wide dispersion from a large array of speakers, you might think about hanging the second pair to avoid limiting vertical dispersion.

-Adam

[skeptic]

The second pair in my case would sit on stands on the floor just like the first pair and would bounce their sound off the side walls near the front. This is how Bose recommended it in the early 1970s when people were experimenting with two pairs of series I and II and the 1801 power amplifier.

I would continue to cross over the tweeters at about 9 khz 6db per octave. This was more satisfactory than even 6 khz. I have used the graphic equalizer on the receiver to roll off the high end of the 901 slightly to get the best possible match for the transistion to the tweeters. One of the big advantages that the 901 has over many other designs IMO is that the 4 inch drivers cover most of the audio spectrum with no crossover in the critical midrange which is a problem with many loudspeaker systems. I want to keep it that way.

The key to your success will be dependent on several factors. Understand that you MUST use a separate preamp and power amp for the 901s and that the preamp output drive the tweeter amplifier which has its own independent volume control. Once set to the optimum level, leave it that way. The main volume control will adjust the sound level of the entire system. The balance is critical. The initial tendency is to adjust the extra tweeters to a level that is too high making the combination too bright. Listen critically to get it right. You will have greater difficulty than I did mounting the outboard tweeters. The enclosures of the series I and II have an overhang which allows the front tweeter to be easily hung with a small L bracket. The tweeters I use are very shallow and does not project out beyond the 901 baffle board more than about 1/2 to 3/4 inch and sits right above of the front four inch driver. The series VI has no overhang and presents a real challenge. Try a separate enclosure using a couple of pieces of plywood spaced an inch ot an inch and a half apart with spacers with the tweter magnets between them. You can cover the whole thing in grill cloth or finish them however you want. the most important thing is to have the front tweeter as close to the 4" front driver as possible and have the rear tweeters firing at the same angles as the other 4" drivers.

I had even better success with the additional resistors I used to drop the front tweeter by 3db so that the direct to reflected ratio was 1:6 instead of 1:3. I also found that aiming the speakers became much more critical toeing in the front (having the apex at the back point outwards) by about 15 degrees. This was very important for an optimum stereo spread. Having them face straight forward put most of the sound between them while 30 degrees spread the left and right too far creating a hole in the middle.

In your case because series VI does not produce much bass below 40 hz, a subwoofer would also be of great advantage. Just be sure it is connected BEFORE the Bose equalizer and after the preamp output so that the bass from the Bose equalizer doesn't overload it. The Bose equalizer tape outputs are a very convenient tie in point or you can use Y adaptors at the preamp ouput if your preamp doesn't have two sets of outputs. It all amounts to the same thing. Same advice for the tweeter amplifier tie in. I'd suggest following Bose's advice and try a crossover to the subwoofer at about 200 hz. In your circumstance, If I were to use a subwoofer, I'd connect in the following order; main preamp output to graqhic equalizer main input, graphic equalizer tape output to powered subwoofer input, graphic equalizer main output to Bose equalizer input. Bose equalizer tape output to tweeter amplifier input and Bose equalizer main output to main power amplifier input for Bose speakers. This will allow you to reduce the low bass output of the Bose speakers with the graphic equalizer without creating a low end cutoff to the subwoofers. And I'd use one subwoofer for each channel. You will have a complex job getting all of the equalizer and level settings optimal. Take your time. I'd experiment with the tweeter level first. You can save the subwoofer for a later project if you want to.

The precise settings for your graphic equalizer will be quite different from mine owing to the vast difference between series I and series VI but the final outcome should be comparable, especially if you use a pair of good subwoofers such as the Parts Express Titanic III 12 or 15 inch units.

Good luck and let me know how you are progressing. I'm glad to see at least someone has the gumption to try this idea.

[kfalls]

Ignorance is bliss.

[dmb_fan]

Skeptic,

Thanks for all the tips. I agree that the series VI's definitely need a sub, but I feel like they do pretty well down to at least 80Hz, so initially I'll probably try using a steep high-pass filter at 80Hz and pairing them with a single corner sub. That should relieve those 4.5" drivers from most of the long excursions that cause intermodular distortion at high volumes.

And (assuming I ever get a pair of 901's) I'll try crossing them over at 4Khz, and I'll let you know how it goes. I disagree that 4Khz is critical midrange since no human voice and virtually no musical instruments hit fundamentals up in this range. Not even violins, piccolos and pianos can reach notes that high. But I'll agree that designers sometimes run into problems with two way speakers crossed over two octaves lower in the 1Khz region.

You ever try hanging your 901's from the ceiling? It seems like it'd set up a very strange soundstage, but I've heard reports of glamorous success.

Any opinion on this tweeter? It seems like these would look nice in this sort of application.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-409

Do you have wires running on the tops of the speakers? Any chance we can see a photo?

It seems to me that the best possible scenario would be to run nine tweeters. Four on the top of the back, four on the bottom of the back and one on top of the front. Although this seems like a lot of work and expense for an experiment.

Anyhow, I'm just rambling. This would just be a second system for me (maybe small speakers for the living room if I could ever get the wires looking nice) and sort of a fun experiment. Thanks for the tips and keep us posted!

Oh yeah, in going back and reading some of your old 901 threads, I noticed talk of other multiple-tweeter systems like the Snell AIIIi. I own the Snell E-III's which are decent sounding inexpensive two way speakers that use the same tweeters as the much more expensive AIIIi. My understanding is that the rear tweeters are intended to provide high-frequencies for off-axis listeners only. For on axis listeners, the rear tweeters are at least 6dB down from the front tweeters which makes them inaudible from the sweet spot--a lesson it took me a long time to learn as I experimented with turning the rear tweeters on and off and was perpetually unable to decide which sounded better from the sweet spot. Of course, both settings sounded identical because the rear tweeters are inaudible from the sweet spot.

However, the rear tweeters do a lot to spread high-frequencies to off-axis listeners. I'm an ardent proponent of this design because much of my listening happens while I'm up and about and far off-axis or entertaining a room full of dinner guests etc. And it's nice for everyone to be able to hear the high-frequencies. I just thought I'd mention this as a tangent from the current multi-tweeter 901 discussion.

-Adam

[skeptic]

This tweeter seems fine. Remember to design the crossover network considering a it presents a six ohm load per driver. I used a total of 8, tweeters, 3 indirect and 1 direct per channel. All were 8 ohms. At first, I tried a 2.2 microf NPC in series with each one for a 6 db/octave crossover at 6 khz. I didn't like it nearly as much as my later trial using 2.7 microf which raised the crossover frequency. By attenuating the front firing tweeter I got still better results. I did this by connecting an 8 ohm 5 watt resistor in parallel with the front tweeter and a 4 ohm 4 watt resistor in series so that the total impedence of that branch was still 8 ohm keeping the crossover frequency the same but only 1/2 the current for that branch goes through the tweeter, the other half goes through the resistor. That avoided having to buy more tweeters.

As I said, the series I and II enclosures have an overhang around the front and sides. I have the walnut trim fronts and sides. They are held on with double sided tape. I removed them, ran my wire from behind the tweeter along the top at the point where the overhang meets the baffle board and replaced the trim kit so that the wires are not visible. I brought them to the rear. All wiring on the rear runs under the grillcloth to the underneath where all of the connections are made. Everything is held to the enclosure with self adhering plastic clips that accomodate tie wraps. I used small tie wraps to hold the parts and that works out very nicely. You can use 18 or 20 gage wire, it really doesn't matter because each tweeter carries very little current and you don't need much wire per tweeter anyway. Where they tied together, I used standard 16 gage wire back to the amplifier and found it easy to get that one and the main one through the rubber grommet in the pedistal. Unfortunately, I have to rewire the whole thing to make it permanent because, stupid me, I used someone's idea of using cat 5 telephone wire. It's much too brittle but it was around and convenient when I was experimenting.

I noticed around the late 1980s that companies like Snell were using rear firing tweeters to augment their best loudspeaker models. So I decided to try it by adding a pair to my Teledyne AR 9s only mine fire straight up at the ceiling. I liked it so much I added another pair and another pair. I found that I had to cut the forward tweeter back 6 db to rebalance the system. I also use equalization over the entire spectrum. It took me a while to understand why they work so well. I've explained that here many times but to make my theory as simple as possible, it creates early reflections at high frequencies to balance the inevitable early reflections you will hear at middle and low frequencies no matter what you do to try to prevent it. As a result, the frequency response of each note is much flatter over time (say up to 20-30 milliseconds than it is without them. I believe you will hear some of their output no matter where you sit.