beginner HT pre/pro selection

[brulaha]

Wondering if there are any suggestions out there for a pre/pro amp for hometheater. Of course I will be listening to music too, but needs to have hometheater capabilities. I've been eyeballing the rotel rsp 1068. Any other good choices in the $1000 - $2000 price range? I'll be powering it with a proceed HPA 2 for the main speakers. The center and rears I'll still need to find an amp for, but I can pick up a used 3 channel B&K amp for about $300.00 for the time being.

[sy_lu]

I use receivers with pre-out as pre/pro. For a $1,000-$2,000 you can buy a high end receiver with the pre/pro performance on par or exceed with stand alone one in the same price range. It will give you the option to use the internal amp for other channels except the mains or as back up. Although the amp adds cost to the receiver, they are high volume products in a far more competitive market which means there are far less margin to the makers and dealers that often offest the cost of the amp and then some.

[topspeed]

Wondering if there are any suggestions out there for a pre/pro amp for hometheater. Of course I will be listening to music too, but needs to have hometheater capabilities. I've been eyeballing the rotel rsp 1068. Any other good choices in the $1000 - $2000 price range? I'll be powering it with a proceed HPA 2 for the main speakers. The center and rears I'll still need to find an amp for, but I can pick up a used 3 channel B&K amp for about $300.00 for the time being.Parasound Halo C3, B&K Ref 30, and Lexicon all make nice pre/pro's in addition to the Rotel, a very good unit in its own right. If you want to looked used, this could work well with your Proceeds:
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?homeproc&1090545156&auc&3&4&

I have to disagree with Sy in that I don't think receivers are nearly as good as dedicated pre/pros, especially when it comes to music reproduction. I do agree you often will get more bells and whistles with Japanese receivers, but at what cost to sonics? Receivers are regulated by the confines of the marketplace meaning they have to cram as much crap into a black box as possible while still hitting the market at a competitive, often cut-throat price. Concessions must be made. Often, it's in the choice of parts, power supplies, caps, dacs, balanced outputs, upgradeability, etc. If you are more into HT, using a receiver might not be a bad idea, however if you value music (and judging by your amp, I'd guess you do) I'd stay with a pre/pro.

Good luck

[Mr Peabody]

I have to agree with Topper here, although a nice receiver from Rotel or Arcam may get you close, you will still get better music reproduction from a separate pre/pro. Receivers just can't afford put as much quality or emphasis in the preamp section. I personally think Rotel RSP 1068 has the market cornered in pre/pro under $2k. Their are a couple at that price but nothing that compares. The B&K or Anthem are available if you want to go another grand. I really liked the Anthem. I haven't heard B&K. There is also a Roksan piece at about $2,500. The Krell Showcase can be had for $3k if you take advantage of their trade up deal. The Showcase pre/pro has received some criticism for not being up to par in the $4k range where it sits but at $3k I bet it's hard to beat.

If you don't need the latest decoding (ie. neo 6's and 7or6.1) there are some bargains on the used market. But just getting started, I'd think it would be worth the new price to get dealer support.

[46minaudio]

Wondering if there are any suggestions out there for a pre/pro amp for hometheater. Of course I will be listening to music too, but needs to have hometheater capabilities. I've been eyeballing the rotel rsp 1068. Any other good choices in the $1000 - $2000 price range? I'll be powering it with a proceed HPA 2 for the main speakers. The center and rears I'll still need to find an amp for, but I can pick up a used 3 channel B&K amp for about $300.00 for the time being.
Take a look at the Yamaha RXV 1400..Yea its a reciever but it will preform juat as good as the others mentioned..Use your proceed to power the frts and use the 1400s amps to power the center,surrounds,and back surrounds..This unit has PL2x,YPAO "this will auto set up everything including a PEQ to tame the room..",and component video switching..You should find one new from a dealer for less than 700...

[Mr Peabody]

I just hope you do the one thing everybody can agree on, and that is listen for yourself. There's no way any Yamaha receiver will outperform any of the mentioned preamps in HT or especially music.

[mtrycraft]

I just hope you do the one thing everybody can agree on, and that is listen for yourself. There's no way any Yamaha receiver will outperform any of the mentioned preamps in HT or especially music.


Why does it have to out perform? How about just equaling its performance as long as it is withing its design limits?
Listening tests of amps, expensive ones and cheap Yam amps show otherwise. Steve Zipser in Florida was a prime example.

[brulaha]

Thank you all for sounding your opinions. I'm left with the conclusion that the Rotel is still the best choice for the price. I have no doubt that the B&K unit appears to be better, especially with the offering of balanced outputs, but its also significantly more expensive. The same is true of the Lexicon.

I'm not opposed to buying used (my proceed was used), but in the case of the fast moving world of home theater, it seems worth it to buy new, as older chips can be replaced by faster and higher tech ones quite rapidly.

I currently have a receiver as a pre amp, and it is definitely the weak link at this point. Things appear to be a tad too bright and I think the seperation, while good, can be improved.

Just a word on the proceed. I bought it used, and when I inserted it into the system, boy what a difference. The bass is much more defined, too the point that I turned down my sub woofer because of the added bass, and treble is much clearer with better decay. The unit is really a monster, and weighs in a just under 100 lbs. I thought I got a decent price at $1500.00. I may eventually step up to the plate and buy a HPA 3 as well.

Thanks again for all your help. I guess in the coming months I may be in the market for the rotel unit. However, I'm still open to any advice out there!!!

[Mr Peabody]

You got an excellent deal on your Proceed. I have been told Proceed was designed by Mark Levinson. Your amp is definitely top notch. That is one reason I'd recommend maybe saving the money a getting a better preamp than the Rotel, at least for 2 channel. Like I said, Rotel, is hard to beat at it's price but it still isn't quite the calibur of Proceed. Have you ever checked the Bluebook on your Proceed, I bet it retailed for around $4k.

You make a good point with the HT technology. Maybe look at a preamp that can be upgraded as technology becomes available.

I have essentially 2 systems tied together. I have a Krell 2 channel preamp which offers a feature called "Theater Through" which allows my Krell 2 channel power amp to run my 2 fronts when watching HT. I just connect my front out of my processor to the Theater Through. If you could find a used Krell it would be a great match with the Proceed. Krell, Levinson, Proceed and Bryston sll have similar sound signatures. Look for a Krell with the Theater Through feature and then use the Rotel or even a receiver for HT, it depends on how good you want your HT to sound. I'm not aware of anyone else that offers such a feature. I saw a Krell HTS pre/pro on www.spearitsound.com for $3k which was normally $6k but I'm sure it is lacking in some of the newer processing software, however, it would be a killer preamp for you. You may be able to find a Krell 2 channel preamp used for around $1,500., give or take, used.

When considering balanced outputs, you need to check to see if the balanced outputs are true balanced circuitry or just taps off the normal RCA channel. There are very few companies that offer true balanced circuits. I know Krell is and a company called Balanced but I'm not sure about who else. I'd be willing to bet Proceed and ML are.

[Mr Peabody]

You guys that own Yamaha, it's obvious that you are proud of it. But you must not have had any experience with high quality gear or you wouldn't come here and consistently spout off nonsense.about it being as good as. If you are happy with it, I'm glad you found something that makes you happy but you are not honest with yourself, or us, if you say you wouldn't trade it in a heartbeat for even a Rotel system, let alone something like Proceed. Or maybe just ignorant to the fact that better sonic reproduction is available. For that I recommend quit shopping at Best Buy and go to listen to some real audio equipment.

For me personally, Yamaha would be on my list of receivers about middle to end. They are a Best Buy brand and I haven't heard anything recently to show me otherwise.

[Mr Peabody]

Another advantage of getting a higher end pre/pro is the better DAC. The Krell, for instance, the sound may not be comparible to the top of the line Krell cdp, but using the Krell DAC would essentially be giving you Krell sound for cd playback. The same for whatever brand you go with.

[mtrycraft]

You guys that own Yamaha, it's obvious that you are proud of it. But you must not have had any experience with high quality gear or you wouldn't come here and consistently spout off nonsense.about it being as good as. If you are happy with it, I'm glad you found something that makes you happy but you are not honest with yourself, or us, if you say you wouldn't trade it in a heartbeat for even a Rotel system, let alone something like Proceed. Or maybe just ignorant to the fact that better sonic reproduction is available. For that I recommend quit shopping at Best Buy and go to listen to some real audio equipment.

For me personally, Yamaha would be on my list of receivers about middle to end. They are a Best Buy brand and I haven't heard anything recently to show me otherwise.

Perhaps you can provide something that Yam is not as good, sonically that is, as Proceed? Testimonials will not do.

[mtrycraft]

Another advantage of getting a higher end pre/pro is the better DAC. .


Or not.

[sy_lu]

Another advantage of getting a higher end pre/pro is the better DAC. The Krell, for instance, the sound may not be comparible to the top of the line Krell cdp, but using the Krell DAC would essentially be giving you Krell sound for cd playback. The same for whatever brand you go with.

Well, Krell does not make their own DAC. In fact as technology goes more advanced, it simply not in the cards for any small (even large) auio company to make their own DAC. Krell uses the same Burr Brown DAC that is used by many others including receivers. Aother one is the digital decoder. Most of the audio makers uses either Motorola or ADI's DSP. This is because decoding is very complex s/w devlopment and most of the small companies just can not afford to keep a high paying DSP team. It is the chip makers provide the decoding s/w that goes with their chip.

I maintain that one should not assume high end audio uses better parts just becasue of the price tag. The low volume means they will pay higher price for the same parts. It also means a higher precent of the operation overhead cost per unit not to mention higher dealer markup and maketing expense. I would say for a $5,000 pre/pro, more than half of the money goes to dealer and marketing expense. More than half of the remaining part goes to cover higher part cost and operation overhead. What you are getting is equal to about $1,000 (if you are lucky) worth of value (note, I meant value not $1K priced receiver)compares to a mass produced product. For a $2,000-$3,000 pre/pro, the comparision is even worse due the fixed overhead (I did looked at a few $2K-$3K pre/pro before I decided to use a receiver as pre/pro. I was not impressed). If you counting on everyone more or less using similar DAC and decoder, what is left is the preamp section and its here better engineering taking care of signal path and better parts will produce better quality. But at what price? How much should a low noise wide band OP AMP or even discreet pre-amp stage cost? 10X more than using a decent recever as pre/pro? I don't think so. Balanced I/O is some thig else but then you need to do that for the whole system and we are not talking about chicken feeds. To me, money is better spent on spakers and power amp. Better yet, buy more music. The best bang for the buck in my system is the SACD player and the SACDs. The money I saved on pre/pro can let me buy close to 300 SACDs.

I go to CES just about every year to hear the "high end" products. While there are a lot of good prodcuts, some are really jokes for the asking prices. I think often high end audio is like other "high end " stuff in life are more of status symbol than anything else. I know some one who has a more than $5K pre/pro and equally cost power amp in his system but his system did not really sound good at all because his speakers were not that great. He should have spend more money on his speakers first. Was his $5K pre/pro doing better than a $500 receiver? Sure (but not for 10X). But I would say had he shift $4,500 to his speakers instead, he would have a much better system. My impression was that the major factor in his purchase was more of the "brand" than sound.

[46minaudio]

I just hope you do the one thing everybody can agree on, and that is listen for yourself. There's no way any Yamaha receiver will outperform any of the mentioned preamps in HT or especially music.
Peabody I hope you take your own advice.I take it you have from the above post..So when you A/Bed the yam against the others did you level match the 2 within .5dbs?Or are you just proud of your gear and made blanket statements with nothing to back them up..

[46minaudio]

You guys that own Yamaha, it's obvious that you are proud of it. But you must not have had any experience with high quality gear or you wouldn't come here and consistently spout off nonsense.about it being as good as. If you are happy with it, I'm glad you found something that makes you happy but you are not honest with yourself, or us, if you say you wouldn't trade it in a heartbeat for even a Rotel system, let alone something like Proceed. Or maybe just ignorant to the fact that better sonic reproduction is available. For that I recommend quit shopping at Best Buy and go to listen to some real audio equipment.

For me personally, Yamaha would be on my list of receivers about middle to end. They are a Best Buy brand and I haven't heard anything recently to show me otherwise.
Wrong Peabody, I do own Rotel,Acurus,Aragon,and Lexicon..Along with the RXV 1400.After level matching the Rotel 2ch pre,against the Yamaha 1400(in direct stereo) using the Acurus Amp for both, noone could tell the Yamaha from the Rotel.I posted these findings and connections on one of the AR forums.You really need to take your own advice and AB these units blind and within .5ds before spouting off nonsencse.I am glad you are happy with your gear.I am also sure your HiFi salesmen is happy also..

[Mr Peabody]

[Krell uses the same DAC

When one goes into a store and purchases a DAC that person does not receive a IC chip only. They receive all the other necessary components from input to output. They all may use a basic chip in the same way as all manufacturers use only a few different transports. It's what they do after that fact that counts.

I am all for the "giant killer" component. We all want good performance for our money. But you that say it all sounds the same are off base. Either you really can't hear the difference, in which I sure as hell wouldn't spend the money or you are ignorant to the benefits of better equipment, in which, if possible go and hear some good equipment and educate your ears. I was once of the same mind when I owned receivers. When I first took my errogant self into my first real high end shop and dropped my "big hair metal" cd into a Krell system that had an amp that looked like a steamtrunk driving a $25k pair of Dynaudio speakers, I walked out thinking "**** my speakers have more midbass than that, I'm not missing anything". I went in again one day for something and the guy dropped Paula Cole into that same system and I think the bass made the building shake, then I walked out thinking, "this may need some more investigating". These guys were great by the way, they let me take some gear home to try, I started off buying an Arcam Alpha 9 cdp and built from there. You don't need to level match to tell if you hear something that wasn't there before. When I put a different component into my system that I am familiar with, I can hear if there is a benefit or not. There are so many differences if you really listen, there's weight to the instruments, sound stages are different sizes, some nearer and further off, some equipment seem to emphasize certain instruments more than others, some sound stages are open or seem to float where others have a black background, not to mention differences in frequency response or delivery. Some equipment like Rotel, most tube equipment, for instance, will sound laid back in their delivery where brands like Krell or Bryston hit hard enough to stop your heart (slight exaggeration).

There are many brands of audio gear out there, if there's no difference, you'd think the purchasing of this gear would be much easier and this board would sease to exist. To each yeng there's a yang. I am happy with my gear and I hear where my money has gone.

I personally think a person is better putting the majority of their money into the source. You can't create what isn't there in the first place. Start with the best reproduction and maintain it throughout your system the best you can. If you have $5k and you spend it lopsided, $4k on just speakers or $4k on just a cdp, neither will result in a very good sound.