Standmount vs Floor Standers - Performance Issues !!! [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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perla4u
07-14-2004, 01:59 PM
Hi all,

A general question about standmounts vs floor standing speakers. I happend to audition B&W 602 s3s and they sounded great. Is it always true that floor standers perform better vs their standmounts?

Lets say if I go for a BW705 (standmount or DM602s3 itself) vs BW604 s3(floor stander), will I be missing anything other than bass? I would be adding a sub for the bass punch for movies anyways.

My question is in general, would there be a noticiable difference in sound quality? If not, where will be the major diffenrece / quality change?

RGA
07-14-2004, 03:15 PM
A lot depends on the line of speakers. For instance my speakers rely heavily on the cabinet to create the sound - so adding a sub to a lower model(The AN/K) - while it will provide more bass does not provide the other numurous advantages of the J and or the E.

With speakers that treat cabinets as a necessary evil then quite often you will find that the standmount is actually the best speaker in a range. I think the B&W 602S3 is the best sounding speaker in the 600 line as I think the Paradigm Studio 40 is the best sounding speaker in that range. Basically the floorstanders and standmounts sound pretty much the same - but with MORE cheaper wood, if it's wood, added to the mix can cause more problems - yes you get more bass but usually at the expense of mucking up the midrange. Though I have used two lines as examples that are actually pretty good when it comes to floorstanders. Ie; the Studio 100 and 603S3 or 604S3 don't exhibit too many issues. Still if your intent is to add a sub then the 602S3 - already pretty good in the bass and impact department is a good choice. Or the 705 probably (have not heard it yet).

All that said the N801 is better than the N805 with a sub. In budget territory a sub satelite can be good - more upscale I prefer the cohesion that full range speakers offer. And there are full range standmounts - so consider that - a 602S3 with a sub might be more money than what I paid for my speakers - if you hear two such set-ups you may opt for the fuller range standmounts.

Good luck - B&W is a good buy if that's the way you go.

Woochifer
07-14-2004, 05:23 PM
It's always a trade-off, and in the standmount vs. floorstander choice, it typically boils down to whether the increased bass extension with a floorstander is worth the compromise in the imaging and higher potential for box resonances. In choosing between the 705 and the 604, you need to assess for yourself how much more important that bass is than the likely improvement that you'd hear with the highs and midrange with the 705. If you plan to add a subwoofer, then IMO you should opt for the 705 over the comparable tower in the 600 series (provided that you like the highs and midrange better), since the bass is no longer a primary consideration.

skeptic
07-14-2004, 05:44 PM
A stand mount is like a floorstander......with the bottom half missing.

cam
07-14-2004, 06:03 PM
It's always a trade-off, and in the standmount vs. floorstander choice, it typically boils down to whether the increased bass extension with a floorstander is worth the compromise in the imaging and higher potential for box resonances. In choosing between the 705 and the 604, you need to assess for yourself how much more important that bass is than the likely improvement that you'd hear with the highs and midrange with the 705. If you plan to add a subwoofer, then IMO you should opt for the 705 over the comparable tower in the 600 series (provided that you like the highs and midrange better), since the bass is no longer a primary consideration.
Another trade-off is that standmounts are typically not as efficient (sensitive) as a floorstander. They say you need double the power to increase 3db. Power costs money. An example: paradigm mini-monitor 90db, monitor 7 93db. If the floorstanders cabinet is built solid with no resonating problem at all I say go for the floorstander just for the fact that they usually go louder without adding the cost for more power and stands. If the cabinet sucks then the extra sensitivity is not worth it.

perla4u
07-14-2004, 06:49 PM
Thanks a lot friends. This really helps.

Also, RCA, I just chose B&W because I just auditioned them and was familiar with their line of speakers. I was thinking of auditioning Paradigm and couldnt find time that day. Pretty soon (porbably this weekend) I will audition them too. Just a quick question that, when u mentioned FULL RANGE BOOKSHELFS, what companies/models u r talking about? I think paradigm studio 40 is full range bookshelfs?

I truly enjoy reading all of the comments posted here. Everyone have a different opinion/view of this topic and gives me much more insight into the world of speakers.

THANKS ALL.

newbsterv2
07-14-2004, 06:50 PM
Another trade-off is that standmounts are typically not as efficient (sensitive) as a floorstander. They say you need double the power to increase 3db. Power costs money. An example: paradigm mini-monitor 90db, monitor 7 93db. If the floorstanders cabinet is built solid with no resonating problem at all I say go for the floorstander just for the fact that they usually go louder without adding the cost for more power and stands. If the cabinet sucks then the extra sensitivity is not worth it.

It also really depends how loud you listen to your music and how big your room is that determines how much amplifier power you need. My 93db Monitor 7's don't need much power because I'm not a volume freak. I've actually measured how much power, worst case, my receiver has to deliver to my speakers and guess what that number is......not even 3 watts!! The whole "you need 400 watts of earth shattering power" is ridiculous unless of course you like your music LOUD and have 80db sensitive speakers.

chimera128
07-14-2004, 09:09 PM
re: full range bookshelfs. Definitive Technology makes a line of full range bookshelfs with powered subwoofers. I'm not sure of their exact specifications but I think the narrowest range is 22hz - 30,000 and the broadest 19hz-30,000. The lowest I have seen a non-powered bookshelf go (manufacturer specs) is 28hz. I don't own any of those but my Promonitor 100s produced a good amount of bass when setup properly. Not sure of other manufacturers that produce full range bookshelfs but those could probably be easily found on their websites. I personally haven't found any bookshelfs that I like as much as towers. When you factor in their need for stands it usually negates the size issue as they will take up as much floor space as towers. Plus the amount of engineering it takes to make the bookshelfs perform as well as towers usually makes them more expensive than the towers they perform as well as. I.E. My BP10B towers have better frequency response than DefTechs BPVX/P powered surrounds, but they cost $400 M.S.R.P. less than the BPVX/Ps.

RGA
07-14-2004, 10:01 PM
Thanks a lot friends. This really helps.

Also, RCA, I just chose B&W because I just auditioned them and was familiar with their line of speakers. I was thinking of auditioning Paradigm and couldnt find time that day. Pretty soon (porbably this weekend) I will audition them too. Just a quick question that, when u mentioned FULL RANGE BOOKSHELFS, what companies/models u r talking about? I think paradigm studio 40 is full range bookshelfs?

I truly enjoy reading all of the comments posted here. Everyone have a different opinion/view of this topic and gives me much more insight into the world of speakers.

THANKS ALL.

It's RGA :p LOL - RCA Shudder.

All the opinions mean nothing until you hear and decide for yourself. Everyone will be biased to what they chose and I'm no different.

Full range bookshelves are rare. A full range standmount for instance is only credible if it truly is. In other words there is a Studio 100 because the 40 and 60 isn't full range. Some would not conider the 100 as full range either.

Interestingly I could say that about My speakers, Audio Note J/Spe, would be considered by most as a full range speaker as it is measured to 20hz at -3db(however such ratings are room dependant and positioning dependant) and how the measurements were done. The company rates the speaker as performing less well than the reviewers as AN rates them at 25hz-6db in a corner where bass is best - hifi choice got the 20hz -3db figure(more bass 1 meter into their room where AN does not recommend them) but they also got a less sensitve result at 89.5db versus AN's claim of 93sb - but it's all in the ballpark.

In my room because it is a relatively smaller room at 13X16 hits they hit 25hz at a good level 55cm away from rear wall - it may actually be better but hearing ability is different from person to person( I used a test disc frequency sweep).

For a long time full range speakers were considered to be 40hz to 15khz. And that is fair because little musical content goes beyond this range. What is more important than the spec sheets companies dream up it is more imprtant how it actually sounds at the volume you want to listen at when you go out listening. Hi-fi Choice tested my speakers in blind group tests - groups of listeners and groups of speakers to compare against in volume level matched conditions - even though the speaker is a standmount they took put them in the floorstanding group test because the standmounts from the competition, like Dynaudio and B&W, simply don't have the bass to compete. If you were going to listen to the J or E standmounts in shops you would probably want to compare them against the B&W N801or 802. One reason I liked the sound was that I like the fast articulate sound of standmounts like the N805 but I wanted a full bodied presentation that Big floorstanders offer up. But you're also looking at a $3700.00US price for the AN J/Spe - so it bloody well should produce bass - I only bought them because my delaer is selling a few of last year's model in BLACK only for $2500.00Cdn and they gave me a 100% trade-up on my speakers - So I only had to come up with $1kCDn or $750.00US.

Bass is an important aspect to the structure of the sound. In a larger room the AN/E would be a better choice than the J but I will be living in apartments or basement suites for a while and the bass would simply be overpowering. Plus the E/Spe is ~$4,800.00US. which is way out of my league - right now. Unless you know any generous rich women you can hook me up with :D

For the money the 602S3 offers a LOT - I had the B&W DM 302 and it did better than the spec sheet but a considerable amount in room and wasn't boomy or dippy.

My only real suggestion is to ignore the brand names, looks and hype - including the hype I give to Audio Note. Meaningless - Go to your dealers - and listen and listen to as much as you can and against each other in the same room - ignore the B&W is king or Energy is king or you need to by a panel to create good sound blah blah blah, and ignore the claims i make about smaller compnies caring more about sound blah blah blah - if it does not move you or enthuse you it's not the sepaker for you. Incidentally, B&W and Bryston were the two companies that got me "Into" high end in that they had a far superior sound to what I used to think was high end. Since then I have heard a level up from these brands even.

Have the confidence in your own ears and preferences not to be swayed by magazines and salespeople telling you what you should think is good sound(or anyone on this forum). It took me a long time 4 years of half-ways shopping and 5 years before that of listening from interest before I found a system(s) from a company that really did it for me - that moved me emotionally that impressed me sonically but not drawing attention to any one aspect - I am actually more "into" classical music because my system to me is actually serving the recordings to point where my ear is not disengaging continually from poor spots. Even the blind listening reviews I mentioned earlier - yes my speakers did well and got the best marks in the sound quality department - BUT, there are still drawbacks in certain aspects that some didn't like and that is why there is no one approach or one company.

Good Luck - and buy the best speaker you can - These things are something you can live with for 20+ years. I meet people who are into audio and spend more on Air Conditioning for their car which they keep for 4-5 years than they do on speakers - and living in BC they use the aircon for maybe 3 months per year????

RGA
07-14-2004, 10:07 PM
re: full range bookshelfs. Definitive Technology makes a line of full range bookshelfs with powered subwoofers. I'm not sure of their exact specifications but I think the narrowest range is 22hz - 30,000 and the broadest 19hz-30,000. The lowest I have seen a non-powered bookshelf go (manufacturer specs) is 28hz. I don't own any of those but my Promonitor 100s produced a good amount of bass when setup properly. Not sure of other manufacturers that produce full range bookshelfs but those could probably be easily found on their websites. I personally haven't found any bookshelfs that I like as much as towers. When you factor in their need for stands it usually negates the size issue as they will take up as much floor space as towers. Plus the amount of engineering it takes to make the bookshelfs perform as well as towers usually makes them more expensive than the towers they perform as well as. I.E. My BP10B towers have better frequency response than DefTechs BPVX/P powered surrounds, but they cost $400 M.S.R.P. less than the BPVX/Ps.

The Audio Note AN E will provide 16hz -6db in the proper corner placemet. The J was measured by Hifi choice as being 20hz -3db - the standmounds cabinet functions as part of the creation of that last octave. Now these are BIG for standmounts. The K is a bit taller than the B&W N804 to give you perspective on the size - but they are still standmounts. http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html

chimera128
07-15-2004, 09:42 PM
While those speakers are nice RGA, they cost as much as my BP7000SCs did and don't have the frequency response. I haven't heard them personally though so I can't make an educated comparison. They are huge too lol... my towers I use for rear surrounds are only about 5 inches taller I think. I guess bookshelf can mean a lot of different things for different people, but when I think of bookshelf I think of a speaker that is at the most two feet in height, not almost 3 feet. Plus, priced at $4000 - $40,000... well, like I said I haven't heard them but for the most part I usually like the towers of manufacturers better than their bookshelfs. The frequency response is intriguing though, I wish they had a dealer in town so I could go and listen.

RGA
07-16-2004, 01:17 AM
You raise a good point - they really are not Bookshelf speakers - they are standmounts. So if people were wondering what the differences are well AN might be the reason. The K is a bookshelf the J is usually compared to floorstanders and the E - in person they are pretty small but would be compared to a floostander.

Almost no musical content goes beyond 15khz - and on CD nothing goes beyond 22khz - NOTHING. They are brickwall filters. And we can't hear past 20khz anyway.

Yes I got the J/Spe for $2500.00Cdn ~$1700.00US - because it was last years model - the new ones don't have a grill cloth, and I had to take black. But hey Black has a pro monitor look so what the hell.

92135011
07-16-2004, 09:03 AM
Yes I got the J/Spe for $2500.00Cdn ~$1700.00US - because it was last years model - the new ones don't have a grill cloth, and I had to take black. But hey Black has a pro monitor look so what the hell.

LOL...you just saying that cuz you wanna make yourself feel better about the plain look compared to the nice dark cherry K you used to have

RGA
07-16-2004, 09:46 AM
LOL...you just saying that cuz you wanna make yourself feel better about the plain look compared to the nice dark cherry K you used to have

Yes quite true - but i need a justification.