mtrycraft..check this out ??

[hertz]

Interesting thread at audio asylum
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/166416.html
This guy has some 30 years experience as an audiophile and has tried out most of the high end speakers and systems availiable.He has invested in wilson audio alexandria speakers after taking a second mortage on his house. It would be fun if somebody tells him that he is nut and should throw away his expensive sources ((CDP/Turntable): Walker Proscenium Gold Signature Turntable, Clearaudio Insider Cart) and invest in a Cheap DVD Player and his expensive VTL amps could be replaced with an AV Reciever and his Cables/Interconnects: (Omega Micro Ebony, Transparent Ref MM, Transparent Opus Speaker ) could be replaced with radio shack 16 guage cables and some blster pack interconnects. If your posts are anytjing to go by, his system shoud sound the same after all these modifications and he would save a lot of money too.He could even have avoided his mortage. Any thoughts ??

[skeptic]

"Bose 901 (ah, the mistakes of youth)"

X-2 (ah, the mistakes of middle age...well it could have been a Corvette...or a Lamborghini.)

I think his wife had better watch out. It seems to me this man is in love and might leave her for his speakers. Perhaps if she is open minded she can work out a menage a trois.

I'm curious about why he installed a tile ceiling. You'd think it would be double sheetrock like the walls.

As with all things new in life, the infatuation eventually wears off. What will he do when he finds the ineveitable flaws in it and they come out with a new and drastically improved X-3 to fix them? Will he go insane?

Hey RGA, it uses an indirect firing tweeter. Maybe when Peter Qtwerp gets around to making his own version, he can take that one out too the way you say he will with the Snell A IIIi. So which should it be, the Willson X-2 or the A/N E level 4 silver super duper and an 8 watt Kookigami amplifier. Oh I forgot, that AN setup would have required him to take out a THIRD mortgage on his house ($250,000 for the amp alone.) But from what you say, that upgrade would have been worth it (Pssst, don't tell him, it'd kill him.)

[Resident Loser]

...I doubt his system sounds $125K(++++) better than my recently acquired Onkyo MC35 Tech mini-system...oh sure, it most likely has better bass response and plays louder, but IMHO, therein lies the rub.

Quite some time ago one of the older and now defunct mags(High Fidelity or Stereo Review, can't remember which) did a piece on smaller speakers. Wasn't just on smaller speakers, but with their use within close proximity to the listener. It really didn't matter the expense level of the units either, because if you took all the variables, i.e. room effects, SPLs and directionality problems out of the equation, you were left with really good audio reproduction. True you didn't get the bone-jarring, infra-sonic weaponry level of bass, but for the most part it was extremely accurate and detailed. My mucking about with my new little toy has borne this out; it compares quite favorably with my reference system and it's little 20wpc amp also drives my Stax SR-44s nicely.

Part of this guy's problem is that he has a fairly large-sized listening room. The fact that he HAS a dedicated listening room is indicative of OTHER problems not neccessarily audio related, but I won't go there...I'll let Skep handle that...

Larger room requires higher SPLs, which requires higher power levels, which requires greater power handling ability on the part of the speaker system and so on, and so forth, and scooby-dooby-dooby...It seems that the five-hour setup time is required just to align and/or aim the driver modules toward ideal performance at a "sweet spot" is sorta' like what that mag was trying to do, but only on a much larger scale.

One of my fave details in the pics was the little tripod affair supporting his power cord so that the sheer weight of the thing didn't disconnect itself...or it it there to keep it from pulling the Gem box out of the sheetrock?

jimHJJ(...as my friend Vito would say "sauszeech his own"...)

[skeptic]

Are you kidding? Does your mini system have X-material? Harder than steel, superman cannot easily bend it with his bare hands. And in fact it is so hard, it can only be milled with a kryptonite laser. Only the US Army has it in quantity and then for armor plate on the newest tanks. Where does it come from? Now I remember. It comes from outer space and was documented in "The Invisible Ray" a docudrama with Boris Karloff and Bela Lugosi who saw the reflection of an asteroid hitting earth eons ago through a telescope in Karloff's Castle. They had to go to Africa to get it and Lugosi was contaminated and then killed. And what about the mysterious M-material. M means "Mind yer own business and don't ask 'cause we ain't tellin' so keep yer nose out er it! You don't have anything like either X material OR M material so how can you even begin to compare your speakers with his? Get real RL, some got it and some ain't got it.

[Resident Loser]

...as in "why do we need this?" and "why do you want this"...that sort of thing...

Maybe the X-material is like that composite deck or trim material that seems to be taking the place of wood in some construction. I'm guessin' if it's a "bear" to use it probably burns out bits and blades with regularity so it may be composed of of harder stuff than that or the bonding agent may gum-up the works. Or maybe like Cool Whip, it was "discovered" by accident...originally it was supposed to be synthetic milk as I recall.

M-material...HMMMM...super MDF?...or was it a laminate? Hey, I think Norm Abrams was using some new laminate for one of his projects. I'd like to see how many chemists and field-related professionals Wilson has on it's payroll to be able to come up with these mystery building materials.

jimHJJ(...why do I think probably none...)

[RGA]

Why do you care what Mrty thinks. The whole point of buying a stereo is to make you happy - this guy needs to spend $125,000.00 on a speaker to make him happy and whatever he spent on the rest of it. If Mrty is happy with a receiver and cheap cables etc etc - not really our business. - And Mrty I know at least thinks the speaker and room matters.

Skeptic. Well he could have bought the AN E/SE for a mere ~$7k and got more bass - higher frequency extension and also get them matched to within .1db. Then he could pay you $1,000.00 to go to his house(or some other tweaker) and attach on a couple of $500.00 tweeters to pelt the walls of his choice with all the tweeters he wants and look at all the money he would have saved. And he might actually be able to move the speaker without a crane.

[skeptic]

The indirect firing tweeter sure looks like the Vifa RD2904/70000, in fact it's a dead ringer.
Could the 13" woofer be Focal 13W8711? Kinda looks like it.

Now all you need is the 15" woofer, the 7" midranges and the inverted 1" titanium dome and you can build your own. I'll leave the cabines and the X-overs to you. BTW they only require 20 wpc. Hey Qtwerp, got any amps we can borrow for a test run? Howabout something nice in a under $100,000 model?

[RGA]

Hey Septic - yes you can get an amp starting at $999.00.

[hertz]

Why do you care what Mrty thinks. The whole point of buying a stereo is to make you happy - this guy needs to spend $125,000.00 on a speaker to make him happy and whatever he spent on the rest of it. If Mrty is happy with a receiver and cheap cables etc etc - not really our business. - And Mrty I know at least thinks the speaker and room matters.

Skeptic. Well he could have bought the AN E/SE for a mere ~$7k and got more bass - higher frequency extension and also get them matched to within .1db. Then he could pay you $1,000.00 to go to his house(or some other tweaker) and attach on a couple of $500.00 tweeters to pelt the walls of his choice with all the tweeters he wants and look at all the money he would have saved. And he might actually be able to move the speaker without a crane.
Hey,
I know it is the personal happiness that matters.I just wanted mtry's opinion on this collossal expenditure on amps and source by a guy who apparantly knows what he is doing.If you go through his review, this is very apparant.Just curious...Hey, this what this site is for.For discussing equipment designed to make music !Hey, I respect Mtry's opinions and his very mature stand against ripoffs in the industry.

[skeptic]

RGA, you seem genuinely disturbed that in the rarified air of the audio lunatic fringe where money has no meaning and all financial prudence is cast aside, Peter Qtwerp has tough competition. Quite frankly, if I had to choose between what this guy bought and what Qtwerp offers in the same price range, I'd buy this guy's setup in a heartbeat. As for more bass, just open the door, crank up that quartet of 13 and 15 inch woofers, and the sucking sound you hear will be the air rushing by to take up the empty space as those 8" bookshelf A/Ns and those kookagami monoblocks get blown out the door.

[E-Stat]

I doubt his system sounds $125K(++++) better than my recently acquired Onkyo MC35 Tech mini-system...
Nah, you're right. It's just a bunch of junk.

rw

[Resident Loser]

...that one of youse guys admitted it!

jimHJJ(...and I never said it was junk...)

[E-Stat]

...that one of youse guys admitted it!
My pleasure. I'm lookin' for Hyundai to win next year's F1 constructor's championship too.

rw

[Resident Loser]

...come at some future date, but for the time being they seem to be more interested on ProRally, Pro-Enduro and Grand Am Street/stock events. I mean did you ever think the names Renault or Honda would be said in the same breath as Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes?

Hyundai entered US ProRally racing in 1995, lending factory support to the Libra Racing Team managed by John Buffum. Apparently, they have five consecutive Manufacturers Championships(19996-2000) and 34 victories on the SCCA proRally circuit. In 1997 they won 13 out of 16 events in the Pro-Enduro series and in 2001 driver Paul Choiniere won the Mt. Washington Hillclimb("The Climb to the Clouds") being only the second driver in the events' history to exceed 100mph; pretty good, if you know the Mt. Washington Auto Road.

While it may not be quite as "exotic" as the that of the hand-built and hand-tweeked, it more closely reflects "real-world" conditions. Hmmmm...

jimHJJ(...P.S. the automotive analogies don't work for any number of reasons...)

[mtrycraft]

. Any thoughts ??


Yes. It would be an interesting DBT experiment comparing his setup and keeping his speakers, replacing everything else. Other than turntables, it would be a rude awakening indeed, for him, that is.
Tom Nousaine did just this, not with those speakers but one that is very accurate, measured to be in the NRC anechoic chambers. A rude awakening as well.
But, maybe, an outside chance, those wires made an audible difference, or those expensive components did. But, perhaps they are designed to be euphonic?

[mtrycraft]

Why do you care what Mrty thinks. .

Exactely:)

But he will when I am in charge :D

[mtrycraft]

Hey,
.I just wanted mtry's opinion on this collossal expenditure on amps and source by a guy who apparantly knows what he is doing. I respect Mtry's opinions and his very mature stand against ripoffs in the industry.

Thanks for the latter part :)
Now, what makes you think he knows what he is doing? 30 years at it? Yes, while it looks impressive, it may not count for beans. Some have faked it for much longer in life. :)

[E-Stat]

I mean did you ever think the names Renault or Honda would be said in the same breath as Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes?
Naturally. Honda has been successful with both two and four-wheeled world class Grand Prix racing since the mid sixties. BTW, Mercedes hasn't designed or built F1 engines for fifty years. The current crop is entirely engineered by their English acquisition, Ilmor.


While it may not be quite as "exotic" as the that of the hand-built and hand-tweeked, it more closely reflects "real-world" conditions. Hmmmm..
"Real-world" is an entirely relative concept. What is real world to you is not necessarily real world to me. For our resident ditch digger and others, sadly boomboxes are their real world. They are like Flatlanders trying to comprehend the third dimension. I'm sure glad my daily real world is not limited in that fashion.

rw

[E-Stat]

Yes, while it looks impressive, it may not count for beans.
Those with zero exposure to such systems will never know, will they?

rw

[RGA]

RGA, you seem genuinely disturbed that in the rarified air of the audio lunatic fringe where money has no meaning and all financial prudence is cast aside, Peter Qtwerp has tough competition. Quite frankly, if I had to choose between what this guy bought and what Qtwerp offers in the same price range, I'd buy this guy's setup in a heartbeat. As for more bass, just open the door, crank up that quartet of 13 and 15 inch woofers, and the sucking sound you hear will be the air rushing by to take up the empty space as those 8" bookshelf A/Ns and those kookagami monoblocks get blown out the door.

Audio Note sells a complete system relatively cheap - your notion of them being ridiculously priced is erroneous as is your hearing as you presume to know how they sound without hearing them - I'm amazed you can hear them telepathically. They have three speakers under 1k - A preamp, power amp and DAC under 1k each - considering the rest of the market - there is nothing overtly obscene about these products. And while they make obscenely priced products so does McIntosh, Krell, Bryston, B&W, Infinity, Tannoy, Revel, JBL and every other company purporting to be high end including Sony, Denon etc.

You like to bring AN up in every thread without hearig them - why is that by the way? Those who protest too much are obviously envious - You're afraid that his two ways are the real deal - that would shatter your fragile ego too much.

[Resident Loser]

...but when I see mention made of Mclaren/Mercedes(as engine supplier) I foolishly believe they are still in the business...

jimHJJ(...never was one for F1/Indy-type stuff...)

[E-Stat]

...but when I see mention made of Mclaren/Mercedes(as engine supplier) I foolishly believe they are still in the business...
Easy mistake for those who don't follow the sport. Kinda like those who believe Michael Moore's half truths as well.


...never was one for F1/Indy-type stuff...
To each his own. Is a BAR 006/Honda RA-004E $1M better than my wife's S2000? Ask Jensen Button.

rw

[skeptic]

The high end AN speakers (and other equipment for that matter) compared to the high end Wilson X-2 and the rest of that system shows the difference in cultures of Europe and the United States and how that difference is manifested in the way engineers have of approaching a problem This difference is so typical of so many other areas of technology that it's worth mentioning.

Snell E, J, and K which the corresponding AN speakers were at the very least inspired by were not Peter Snell's best efforts by his own accounts. The K a two way 8" acoustic suspension speaker with a one inch dome tweeter is the lineal descendent of the AR4 manufactured starting around 1960. That was not only not their best effort, it was their least expensive and most modest one but none the less, a good value for the money. 40 years or so, enters Peter Qtwerp who has taken this simple idea and refined it and refined it and refined it until in its ultimate expression, it undoubtedly sells for several tens of thousands of dollars. Similarly E, and J have been tweaked and refined ad nauseum until the most expensive version of E, also a 2 way 8 inch design but ported sells for around $100,000, not quite the $125,000 of the X-2 but up in the same league. What do Wilson's engineers do to solve the same problem? In typical American fashion, they don't give up on refinement and tweaking but they throw brute force at it. Tons and Tons of brute force. Between the 13 and 15 inch woofers, they can rock that guy's house. 2300 pounds of crates, and a whole day for three guys to unpack it and set it up. It bristles with tweeters and midranges also of the highest quality possible (the two reflective Scan Speak tweeters sell in Parts Express catalogue for over $800 a pair alone. I admit that I might be biased. I find it hard to accept that a 2 way 8" pair of bookshelf speakers should sell for $100,000. (I'm not exactly thrilled with the price of the X-2s either but after all, they are made of X and M material (whatever the hell that is.) I'm not saying it isn't a ripofff too, but it looks much more of what I'd expect for a lot of money. Ditto the amplfiers and the rest of the equipment. Does European engineering compete with American engineering? Not in my book, at least most of the time. Just look at the difference between the Mars lander from Britain (the Beagle II) and the American probes now sending back pictures. And how much do you have to spend in Europe for a European car to get all of the features of say a Chevy Caprice well equipped? A lot more, I guarantee it. Yes a top of the line Mercedes is better than Lincoln. But it costs a lot more too. Much much more. When you look at cars of the same price, the American cars are the better value practically every time even if they aren't as reliable (the differences with European cars in reliability have diminished considerably.)

[mtrycraft]

Those with zero exposure to such systems will never know, will they?

rw


And those who are exposed may not know either but are overwhelmed by the price and name stature.
After all, what is the outcome when all the distraction is hidden and only the sound is judged? They will never know. Illusions are fine too. David make a living from it.

[E-Stat]

And those who are exposed may not know either but are overwhelmed by the price and name stature.
Don't worry - that is a challenge you will never face.

rw

[mtrycraft]

Don't worry - that is a challenge you will never face.

rw

No, I won't. It is not a challenge at all.

[RGA]

Snell E, J, and K which the corresponding AN speakers were at the very least inspired by were not Peter Snell's best efforts by his own accounts. The K a two way 8" acoustic suspension speaker with a one inch dome tweeter is the lineal descendent of the AR4 manufactured starting around 1960. That was not only not their best effort, it was their least expensive and most modest one but none the less, a good value for the money. 40 years or so, enters Peter Qtwerp who has taken this simple idea and refined it and refined it and refined it until in its ultimate expression, it undoubtedly sells for several tens of thousands of dollars. Similarly E, and J have been tweaked and refined ad nauseum until the most expensive version of E, also a 2 way 8 inch design but ported sells for around $100,000, not quite the $125,000 of the X-2 but up in the same league. What do Wilson's engineers do to solve the same problem? In typical American fashion, they don't give up on refinement and tweaking but they throw brute force at it. Tons and Tons of brute force. Between the 13 and 15 inch woofers, they can rock that guy's house. 2300 pounds of crates, and a whole day for three guys to unpack it and set it up. It bristles with tweeters and midranges also of the highest quality possible (the two reflective Scan Speak tweeters sell in Parts Express catalogue for over $800 a pair alone. I admit that I might be biased. I find it hard to accept that a 2 way 8" pair of bookshelf speakers should sell for $100,000. (I'm not exactly thrilled with the price of the X-2s either but after all, they are made of X and M material (whatever the hell that is.) I'm not saying it isn't a ripofff too, but it looks much more of what I'd expect for a lot of money. Ditto the amplfiers and the rest of the equipment. Does European engineering compete with American engineering? Not in my book, at least most of the time. Just look at the difference between the Mars lander from Britain (the Beagle II) and the American probes now sending back pictures. And how much do you have to spend in Europe for a European car to get all of the features of say a Chevy Caprice well equipped? A lot more, I guarantee it. Yes a top of the line Mercedes is better than Lincoln. But it costs a lot more too. Much much more. When you look at cars of the same price, the American cars are the better value practically every time even if they aren't as reliable (the differences with European cars in reliability have diminished considerably.)

The snells sound nothing like the AN's - and Snell's own accounts - his best speaker to him was the A no doubt. But like a loit of speaker lines the BEST speaker is not always the one that was the most expensive or considered to be the best from that company. Important distinctions. But then Chekov's believed his A Cat on a Hot Tin Roof play was a comedy and it can be healthily argued that the playwrite himself actually wrote a modern tragedy and didn't know it.

I don't understand why you keep getting on about AN's high priced speakers - who really cares? They are statement products. I compared the AN J/LX and the AN J/Spe - and I was startled by the improvement - considering the drivers and cabinet shape are exactly the same. There is no justifcation for the AN E Sogon to be $99,999. Yes it is a smallish cabinet and has only two drivers each dirver even if they are the most expensive best 8 inch drivers on earth ever made still does not warrant a cost of 99,999.00. Not even if the capacitors and wiring are the ebst grade and the external crossover are the best ever constructed - and if the wood is the best quality and construction.

But then neither do a few $800.00 drivers in the Wilson for over 125K- Wilson will claim it's high R&D costs is the excuse because it's a NEW design - that is BS - they are often ripped by many for using cheap wood cheap drivers cheap wiring and cheap crossovers relative to price and more importantly the one I heard years ago didn't sound particularly good - ask Woochifer what he found. He has a review that ripped one of their speakers and was re-reviewed by a lapdog reviewer who later gave it a rave apparently.

I'm not going to start comparing cars - I don't particularly think Americans know anything about building quality motor vehicles to the masses - the reliability of Caddy and Lincoln is dreadful and has been for the last 35 years - they're total crap compared to a Honda Civic Hatchback at 1/7 their price as quality vehicles - sure Caddy sells you nice ammenities but I'm buying a car not a leather couch and frankly a fake wood finish and a few extra horsepower with poor steering is not worth the extra $50,000 (and to top it off that break down with horrible electrical systems, atrocious paint jobs - but I don't believe these blow up on impact - surprising really since it's probably an old person's last car - it's not like they're going to get another sale so why they didn't cheap out and create another death trap I don't know. It would make more sense to not deliberately make Focus and Crown Vics and Pinto - young buiyers with 9 future cars ahead of them deathraps).

The Mercedes - equally as bad according to Lemon Aid - maybe worse becuase you pay a premiumn to get them here. No the Japanese have kicked ass for 20 years - sure there are a few lemons here and there - but a testament to the Honda Civic Hatchback of the 1990's is that this car in BC is typically bought by young kids who put big boom stereos in them - they beat the **** out of the car for years as a first or second owner - and I would bet treat the car MUCH worse than your average 55-65 year old driving a Caddy does on average - and despite that the Civic is 1st or 2nd continually as the best repair histories. And the SPECIFIC Caddy and Lincolns fair pretty poorly - apparently on average American cars have gotten much better - but man the cars I would want like the Focus are deathmobiles. Criminals always like to steal Honda and Toyota - ahh criminals they have good taste.

And give Hyuandai a little more time - they appear to be following the Honda model quite well - burst onto the scene with the Pony - crappy but at least afofrdable to the poor - Now a decade or two later quality is increasing rapidly - best warranties available - nice sporty looks - and look out. The lesser name will not hurt them with younger folk who don't remember the Pony's

The point is Audio Note's statement product is I agree different from Wilson or B&W's statement products - and anything this obscenely priced is a STATEMENT rather than anything purporting to be high value. But if you actually think about what the statement is IMO it is that their basic E is a "platform" that Peter feels will compete with ANY speaker at any price. You can buy it at $4k or 9 other versions to $99K. There is no way on god's green earth that there is $95,000.00US in OPTIONS(to use a car term) to justify it. There cannnot be. But I think the statement that Peter is making is that Yes the 99k version is X percent better than the basic version - I heard the difference going from the two J's - but that the basic version because it still sounds a lot like the higher models and his higher models SELL against such high priced speakers - that the value of the BASIC E is that it will compete with 100k systems and not be embarrassed at all. Then the value is that your $4k speaker really is the state of the art as a basic platform - now it is a series of subtle improvements - which you as the owner can decide if any of those subtle improvements is worth a hill of beans to make.

This is my problem with your posts - My dad bought a V10 Dodge Ram for $21,000.00Cdn - buyt you can buy a $65,000.00 Version of that truck - there is absolutely NOTHING in that $44,000.00 to make the vehicle BETTER - even the Diesal engine option would actually have had LESS towing capacity because the engine itself weighs more. And even then the engine option alone was only $5k. That is damn expensive leather and heated seats eh? The leather in cars if it costs more than $75.00US for the entire interior means they're getting hosed and a lousy negotiator. Even Walmart can sell good suede Jackets for $29.99 Cdn(Retail which means they got it for under $5.00). And the $450.00 version in the Leather boutique if it's better sure as hell isn't $420.00 better. What, did they import the cow from virgin godesses in the alps?

Audio Note's higher levels are one offs - that will add to costs - one of their amplifiers - and they had a reviewer review the process takes 55 hours to build and uses the best parts any amplifier on this planet can possibly use - and NO the integrated still would not be worth ~$89,000.00US. Even if the industry considers it the best amplifier ever built buy anyone.

The only way a price can be justified - and to you it still never would be - is if you ACTUALLY compare the Audio Note X priced unit to the competion X priced unit and their Y priced and the other guy's Y price. Should AN say well We can sell our product for $8,000 not $40,000 that B&W is charging - trouble is audiophiles with lot's of money they don't know what to do with won't take you seriously IF you don't charge a lot.

The fact that the Audio Note J/Spe is IMO a better speaker than just about any speaker I have heard at $10,000.00 no one will take my word seriously or Audio Note's - So Audio Note makes one at $10,000.00 - and it will have some slight changes and it may be a relatively better sounding speaker - side by side you would notice but perhaps not otherwise. But now that it is $10,000.00 the same guy who would totally ignore a $3500.00 speaker will now at least AUDITION the J against the N801 or M801 or ML Oddyssey and realize that wow, like my dealer, that the AN's are vastly superior speakers that we don't even need bother carrying the easy sell B&W's anymore because they're utterly embarrassed by a speaker 1/5 their cost. And of course it doesn't matter anyway because you won't be satisfied by a non multidirectional array design.

My point is that you should have the decency to attack a product you have heard in real life first - and if you're being fair and comparing it to the others in its price then I seriously doubt they can be found to be a speaker wanting. Nor might I add as systems. That may not mean they're going to be your choice of tea bag - ML isn't mine in the end but I like a lot of the sound and I respect the fact that some people cannot live without what they can do best.

[skeptic]

Why do I get the feeling that you so often miss the point of my postings? I think that in Canada, the version of English we speak here in the US is fairly well understood. I was comparing the approach Europeans and Americans take to problem solving given their different cultures, perspectives, economic realities, training, and overall outlook on life. The European view to oversimplify it is "less is more" or at least "less is enough." The American view is "more is more" and even "more is never enough." I'm not saying both speaker systems and all of the rest of this equipment isn't a ripoff. In fact I think it is. Even if it isn't, it is absurd given its relative importance in most people's lives. IMO, so is a 36" plasma television screen for $5000 cosidering you can get one that looks just about as good that isn't HDTV as a direct view for much less than half that. And if there are people willing to pay it, there is every reason for other people to exploit that market if they can.

It's when you start taking this stuff apart and you see how little there really is to it, that you begin to get the idea of just how big a ripoff much of it is. On another web site, I posted on a thread about two loudspeakers at the opposite end of the price and quality scale, Zenith Allegro and smaller Advent. I acquired a pair of each on a lark at a couple of garage sales at about the same time for next to nothing. The dimly viewed Zenith worked perfectly and when disassembled had surprisingly good quality components and was well built. The highly vaunted Advent (also American) on the other hand turned out not only to have rotted foam surrounds on the woofers but was such a piece of under designed underbuilt trash that they are simply not worth any time and effort to repair. Once again, the perception of audiophiles about what things are actually worth compared to what they are priced at on the retail market is very distorted in many cases.

[Resident Loser]

...here's where we get into those "gray" areas...

By all accounts, Mercedes has a financial interest in Ilmor and it would seem by their own account they have been(since '95), and are still, using various permutations of the Mercedes-Benz FO 110 engine...the "Q" suffix for '04...it's sorta' like the debate about what is an import and what is domestic...

Regardless of what sort of blueprinting they(Ilmor) might be doing, if it's major components are of M-B design or production I'd guess it's an M-B engine...to me, that qualifies as M-B being involved in F1...and I believe it's well within your "50 year" timeframe...

I mean, any old shade-tree mechanic can strip down a mill to it's bare essentials and use aftermarket parts ranging from valve-cover gaskets to a deep-sump oil pan, from pistons to pushrods and it would basically still be a Ford or a Chevy or whatever...he!!, I can throw a nitrous kit in my Cherokee, that wouldn't make it a dentist...

With re: to your wife's vehicle...if she's taking hairpins at extraordinary speeds I would answer yes...if she's just going through the daily drudge, a deep resounding NO!...

jimHJJ(...it's just that "real world" come a-callin"...)

[E-Stat]

...here's where we get into those "gray" areas...

By all accounts, Mercedes has a financial interest in Ilmor and it would seem by their own account they have been(since '95), and are still, using various permutations of the Mercedes-Benz FO 110 engine...the "Q" suffix for '04...it's sorta' like the debate about what is an import and what is domestic...
I disagree. Daimler Benz bought a company that designs and builds their own engines in the UK that have little in common with those designed and built in Stuttgart. Why are they still Ilmor if not? Place of assembly is different from original company that designed and built something. Yamaha designed and built DOHC heads for the Ford Taurus SHO. Similarly, that is NOT Ford engineering.


... if it's major components are of M-B design or production...
I believe they are not. Mercedes has financial control of an independent group of Brits who soldier on designing and building engines for CART and F1. Interestingly enough, they also partner with Honda in the IRL.


With re: to your wife's vehicle...if she's taking hairpins at extraordinary speeds I would answer yes...if she's just going through the daily drudge, a deep resounding NO!...
I don't limit myself the way you do. The analogy would be that if I owned a race track (my dedicated listening room) and can appreciate the vast performance envelope between the BAR and the Honda, (high rez system vs. $350 combo) then that is the real world. There is no such practical limitation on hearing really good gear vs. budget systems. I have that capability 24/7.

Ralph

[Resident Loser]

...obviously a 2900cc engine putting out 14kRPM(a guesstimate based on previous engines) has very little in common with one that powers a Unimog, but does Ilmor have a foundry?, do they cast their own blocks and heads? are they machined from billet? Perhaps they do, I surely don't know. In any event and following your logic then, Honda isn't a Honda, it too is an Ilmor?

With re: to vehicle purposes, one might be able to go faster in the F1 car, but I'd wager I can go further in my Jeep. Wouldn't want to bottom-out and bend those little A-arms...

In re: my little $400 toy, have you ever heard it?...and I don't mean @CC...he!! I had to tell the fools the speakers were wired out of phase, somethng that was readily apparent to me...As stated previously, set up optimally and working within in it's "domain", I can't imagine there is a quarter million dollars(est.) worth of audible difference...

jimHJJ(...since my purpose, which is a work in progress, is to determine how little one needs to spend for high-quality sound reproduction, I hardly feel that "limited" is quite the correct word...)

[E-Stat]

...obviously a 2900cc engine putting out 14kRPM(a guesstimate based on previous engines) has very little in common with one that powers a Unimog, but does Ilmor have a foundry?
That would be 18,000 RPM and Ilmor has had production capabilities before and after the M&A, both at their main facility in the UK and here in the states. BTW, hearing the shriek of an F1 engine at redline in close proximity is an aural delight.



In any event and following your logic then, Honda isn't a Honda, it too is an Ilmor?
Honda doesn't buy someone else's engine and put their nameplate on it as with the "Mercedes" F1 engine. In order to move quickly from the failing CART engine formula to that of IRL (which is a very different format), they consulted with Ilmor on the design. As the world's leading manufacturer of engines of all sorts, they would not be caught dead putting their name on someone else's production. Honda builds the engines using the shared design. The reverse, however, is true. GM puts Honda engines in their high line Saturn SUV. Ford is likewise considering to buy Honda engines for OEM use. (That's the kind of partnership to which you are referring)



In re: my little $400 toy, have you ever heard it?...and I don't mean @CC...he!! I had to tell the fools the speakers were wired out of phase, somethng that was readily apparent to me...As stated previously, set up optimally and working within in it's "domain", I can't imagine there is a quarter million dollars(est.) worth of audible difference...
I have not, but am impressed with the increasing quality of inexpensive components. I left the old Diskman on my last trip to Seacliff and started using my wife's newer Sony model. It is capable of exceptional performance for $100 using some better headphones. The value statement is relative. One system can startle me with it's dynamics, raise the hairs on my arm and make me laugh out loud and the other can't.


...since my purpose, which is a work in progress, is to determine how little one needs to spend for high-quality sound reproduction
I spend more time with my two other systems than the "big" one. My computer based system uses a premium Turtle Beach soundcard and Monsoon planar speakers with a sub. The garage system uses hand-me-down components from earlier days - 1981 Threshold amp, 1993 Pioneer PD-54 CDP, 1978 Advents, and a $15 DIY attenuator - arguably worth not much more than your combo system. It sounds pretty decent in that environment.

rw

[hifitommy]

And those who are exposed may not know either but are overwhelmed by the price and name stature.
After all, what is the outcome when all the distraction is hidden and only the sound is judged? They will never know. Illusions are fine too. David make a living from it.
the watt/pups are only $25k. of course thats high. he started making these (watt) for public sale only at the prodding of friends and associates in the music biz who wanted his monitors for home listening.

having heard a demo at a stereophile show in LA, driven by the jadis defy7 amps, playing sax and trumpet at natural levels without strain, i became a fan. i have also heard these speakers driven by ss equip to lesser success.

if anyone thinks they can duplicate them for cheep, go ahead, try. its not going to happen. i am not dazzled by the sheer cost, i just know that SOMETIMES you get what you pay for, at both ends of the financial spectrum. i also know that you can do quite well at the low end of the spectrum dollarwise and still have a 'high end' sound.

still, youll never get hasselblaad quality at instamatic prices.

[Jimmy C]

The snells sound nothing like the AN's - and Snell's own accounts - his best speaker to him was the A no doubt. But like a loit of speaker lines the BEST speaker is not always the one that was the most expensive or considered to be the best from that company. Important distinctions. But then Chekov's believed his A Cat on a Hot Tin Roof play was a comedy and it can be healthily argued that the playwrite himself actually wrote a modern tragedy and didn't know it.

I don't understand why you keep getting on about AN's high priced speakers - who really cares? They are statement products. I compared the AN J/LX and the AN J/Spe - and I was startled by the improvement - considering the drivers and cabinet shape are exactly the same. There is no justifcation for the AN E Sogon to be $99,999. Yes it is a smallish cabinet and has only two drivers each dirver even if they are the most expensive best 8 inch drivers on earth ever made still does not warrant a cost of 99,999.00. Not even if the capacitors and wiring are the ebst grade and the external crossover are the best ever constructed - and if the wood is the best quality and construction.

But then neither do a few $800.00 drivers in the Wilson for over 125K- Wilson will claim it's high R&D costs is the excuse because it's a NEW design - that is BS - they are often ripped by many for using cheap wood cheap drivers cheap wiring and cheap crossovers relative to price and more importantly the one I heard years ago didn't sound particularly good - ask Woochifer what he found. He has a review that ripped one of their speakers and was re-reviewed by a lapdog reviewer who later gave it a rave apparently.

I'm not going to start comparing cars - I don't particularly think Americans know anything about building quality motor vehicles to the masses - the reliability of Caddy and Lincoln is dreadful and has been for the last 35 years - they're total crap compared to a Honda Civic Hatchback at 1/7 their price as quality vehicles - sure Caddy sells you nice ammenities but I'm buying a car not a leather couch and frankly a fake wood finish and a few extra horsepower with poor steering is not worth the extra $50,000 (and to top it off that break down with horrible electrical systems, atrocious paint jobs - but I don't believe these blow up on impact - surprising really since it's probably an old person's last car - it's not like they're going to get another sale so why they didn't cheap out and create another death trap I don't know. It would make more sense to not deliberately make Focus and Crown Vics and Pinto - young buiyers with 9 future cars ahead of them deathraps).

The Mercedes - equally as bad according to Lemon Aid - maybe worse becuase you pay a premiumn to get them here. No the Japanese have kicked ass for 20 years - sure there are a few lemons here and there - but a testament to the Honda Civic Hatchback of the 1990's is that this car in BC is typically bought by young kids who put big boom stereos in them - they beat the **** out of the car for years as a first or second owner - and I would bet treat the car MUCH worse than your average 55-65 year old driving a Caddy does on average - and despite that the Civic is 1st or 2nd continually as the best repair histories. And the SPECIFIC Caddy and Lincolns fair pretty poorly - apparently on average American cars have gotten much better - but man the cars I would want like the Focus are deathmobiles. Criminals always like to steal Honda and Toyota - ahh criminals they have good taste.

And give Hyuandai a little more time - they appear to be following the Honda model quite well - burst onto the scene with the Pony - crappy but at least afofrdable to the poor - Now a decade or two later quality is increasing rapidly - best warranties available - nice sporty looks - and look out. The lesser name will not hurt them with younger folk who don't remember the Pony's

The point is Audio Note's statement product is I agree different from Wilson or B&W's statement products - and anything this obscenely priced is a STATEMENT rather than anything purporting to be high value. But if you actually think about what the statement is IMO it is that their basic E is a "platform" that Peter feels will compete with ANY speaker at any price. You can buy it at $4k or 9 other versions to $99K. There is no way on god's green earth that there is $95,000.00US in OPTIONS(to use a car term) to justify it. There cannnot be. But I think the statement that Peter is making is that Yes the 99k version is X percent better than the basic version - I heard the difference going from the two J's - but that the basic version because it still sounds a lot like the higher models and his higher models SELL against such high priced speakers - that the value of the BASIC E is that it will compete with 100k systems and not be embarrassed at all. Then the value is that your $4k speaker really is the state of the art as a basic platform - now it is a series of subtle improvements - which you as the owner can decide if any of those subtle improvements is worth a hill of beans to make.

This is my problem with your posts - My dad bought a V10 Dodge Ram for $21,000.00Cdn - buyt you can buy a $65,000.00 Version of that truck - there is absolutely NOTHING in that $44,000.00 to make the vehicle BETTER - even the Diesal engine option would actually have had LESS towing capacity because the engine itself weighs more. And even then the engine option alone was only $5k. That is damn expensive leather and heated seats eh? The leather in cars if it costs more than $75.00US for the entire interior means they're getting hosed and a lousy negotiator. Even Walmart can sell good suede Jackets for $29.99 Cdn(Retail which means they got it for under $5.00). And the $450.00 version in the Leather boutique if it's better sure as hell isn't $420.00 better. What, did they import the cow from virgin godesses in the alps?

Audio Note's higher levels are one offs - that will add to costs - one of their amplifiers - and they had a reviewer review the process takes 55 hours to build and uses the best parts any amplifier on this planet can possibly use - and NO the integrated still would not be worth ~$89,000.00US. Even if the industry considers it the best amplifier ever built buy anyone.

The only way a price can be justified - and to you it still never would be - is if you ACTUALLY compare the Audio Note X priced unit to the competion X priced unit and their Y priced and the other guy's Y price. Should AN say well We can sell our product for $8,000 not $40,000 that B&W is charging - trouble is audiophiles with lot's of money they don't know what to do with won't take you seriously IF you don't charge a lot.

The fact that the Audio Note J/Spe is IMO a better speaker than just about any speaker I have heard at $10,000.00 no one will take my word seriously or Audio Note's - So Audio Note makes one at $10,000.00 - and it will have some slight changes and it may be a relatively better sounding speaker - side by side you would notice but perhaps not otherwise. But now that it is $10,000.00 the same guy who would totally ignore a $3500.00 speaker will now at least AUDITION the J against the N801 or M801 or ML Oddyssey and realize that wow, like my dealer, that the AN's are vastly superior speakers that we don't even need bother carrying the easy sell B&W's anymore because they're utterly embarrassed by a speaker 1/5 their cost. And of course it doesn't matter anyway because you won't be satisfied by a non multidirectional array design.

My point is that you should have the decency to attack a product you have heard in real life first - and if you're being fair and comparing it to the others in its price then I seriously doubt they can be found to be a speaker wanting. Nor might I add as systems. That may not mean they're going to be your choice of tea bag - ML isn't mine in the end but I like a lot of the sound and I respect the fact that some people cannot live without what they can do best.

Reign yerself in, Cowboy!

A Civic one-seventh the price of a Caddy? How about one-2.5th...lol. The diminutive Hondas ain't so cheap anymore...approaching $20K.

Actually, our friends (who we bought our condo from) own a Caddy dealer (among others) and Ihave had the privilige to drive some of the new GM cars... not so bad, not so bad at all. Do I have gripes? Sure, but I doubt they would ruin your date, in a new EXT or V8 CTS, for eg. You are shooting from the hip.

I'll agree, no one can argue with the resale AND reliability of Hondas, but THEIR paint sux (my business) AND they feel like a tin can... NO getting around that. Either you have not driven new cars OR you are just oblivious to the real world... when you have a grasp of actual NEW cars, feel free to comment ;*)

Like it or not, the MBs are built to a very high standard... the problems eminate from (mostly) computer problems... they are too friggin' complicated. To say they "suck" would not be doing them an injustice. Again, I would drive them, feel them, ENJOY them insted of reading a survey... the people I personally know have ZERO problems with new MBs. If you feel the Civic is a superior car (in all driving enthusiast parameters), save yourself a boatload.

Hyundai? THEY are the P.O.S.... along with Mitsu...lol.They will NEVER recover.

The audio stuff argument? Not sure yet... ;*)

I have to admit, it's getting like Gerry Springer in here... lol. I don't watch him, but I suppose I am watching in here... hhmmph...

[RGA]

I would rather drive a MB over a Honda - the arguement was over cost relative to price. There are vehicles where the options cost more than the base price of the car itself - people have less problem with that for some odd reason. And Honda has less problems because it is simpler and will last longer and get the job done better because it is simpler. As a driver's car - MB or Caddy is probably better. But then Honda has Infinity and Toyota has Lexus as answers - they built from a solid base up. I'm not a car guy - but friends who work in the industry - even detail Patrick Stewart's Jag - ALL OF THEM say that Lexus is easuily the BEST overall motor vehicle from a performance luxury build construction total package persopective(this was said 2 years ago). That ismn't to say that AS CAR GUY"S they would not themselves take a BMW, Mercedes or other but trying to be objective about it.

Judging by the repair histories Lexus does do better than Mercedes across the board. Reading the Lemon Aid about most Mercedes and it's rather funny the way he insults Mercedes buyers in a back-handed sorta way. Maybe they should get better computers - or make it simpler as they're not required.

Take your old 59 Camero's or Mustang or whatever and supe the hell out of it with very knowledgeable car guys - and will probably stomp a new SUPERIOR technologically advanced off the line Vette. At least that's what the car guys claim.

To me the point of a car is to get me there with little problems - Honda's hatchback civic did that for me better than any other car I had - and the only paint problem I had was with GM. Still have those problems a decade later.

[gonefishin]

Mtry,

I'm always surprised by how little you actually say...(hmmm) perhaps that's not the best way to describe what I'm trying to say??? But, for lack of a better head atop my shoulders, I'll leave it stand on it's own :)

while I don't always agree with you on all matters...I think most of the problems with your posts come after you've posted them...not during. Course, I still have to say...I am still a bit curious what you would ...ah, never mind ;)


take a nice day!

[rb122]

Hyundai? THEY are the P.O.S.... along with Mitsu...lol.They will NEVER recover.

The audio stuff argument? Not sure yet... ;*)..

I own and regularly drive a Hyundai and I've heard the Wilson Watt/Puppy speakers on several occasions. I've never had a problem with the car (63K miles and still going strong) but I had a problem with the speakers the first time I heard them and still do to this day.

The car is worth the relatively few bucks it cost. The speakers aren't worth 1/5 of their cost. If I have to use a POS, the least they can do is not gouge me for the privilege!

[Jimmy C]

I own and regularly drive a Hyundai and I've heard the Wilson Watt/Puppy speakers on several occasions. I've never had a problem with the car (63K miles and still going strong) but I had a problem with the speakers the first time I heard them and still do to this day.

The car is worth the relatively few bucks it cost. The speakers aren't worth 1/5 of their cost. If I have to use a POS, the least they can do is not gouge me for the privilege!

Actually, the Hyundais are much better than they used to be.... I used to work at a Mitsu dealer almost 20 years ago, and I can remember the Precis (rebadged Excel). Not pretty!

I know a few people with the new ones (Hyun) and they all have some sort of hardware problems. But as you say, the car doesn't cost as much as others - something has to give. Geez, we have a '91 Cavalier with a trip to the moon on the odo... this ain't supposed to be a "good" car either.

We are of of the lucky ones.

[mtrycraft]

Mtry,

I'm always surprised by how little you actually say...(hmmm) perhaps that's not the best way to describe what I'm trying to say??? But, for lack of a better head atop my shoulders, I'll leave it stand on it's own :)

while I don't always agree with you on all matters...I think most of the problems with your posts come after you've posted them...not during. Course, I still have to say...I am still a bit curious what you would ...ah, never mind ;)


take a nice day!

Yep, I haven't learned how to wax all the words like the reviewers do for some magazines, pages and pages or nothingness:) Man of few words, important ones only. :)

I am happy that you agree with me on some matters some of the time :) What more can I ask :D

[rb122]

Actually, the Hyundais are much better than they used to be.... I used to work at a Mitsu dealer almost 20 years ago, and I can remember the Precis (rebadged Excel). Not pretty!

I know a few people with the new ones (Hyun) and they all have some sort of hardware problems. But as you say, the car doesn't cost as much as others - something has to give. Geez, we have a '91 Cavalier with a trip to the moon on the odo... this ain't supposed to be a "good" car either.

We are of of the lucky ones.

What sort of problems can I expect on an Elantra?

I don't know whether to thank you or hate you! :) I can't wait to see how they treat the warranty! Actually, I can wait....

[Jimmy C]

...from the people I know, and as a matter of fact both cars are Elantras.

Bill's car has leaks in the cabin when it rains hard... and of course, the dealer can never locate where they are coming from. Also, windows didn't work (fixed).

Sue's car has annoying A-pillar wind noise at speed. She has also complained about various rattles (not sure if these have been resolved). Weak A/C.

Good luck with yours!

[markw]

I just picked on up this weekend. Lotsa car for 13k. All IO've read about this make lately says it's geting better and better.

My 7 year old Grand Marquis was starting to nickle and dime* me to death. I just found out that the oxygen sensore needed to be replaced and this would cost $750 and ther was NO guarantee it would pass NJ inspection this month, which is among the most stringent in the country.

At least I'll get a few years under warranty, plus it's roomy inside and finished fairly well.

*More like $50 and $100. With 70k on it, within the past year I've had to replace the window motor ($350), the A/C switch motor ($610) and now this oxygen sensor thing?

[lattybuck]

My two cents are simple. If anything makes you happy you can afford, do it. I may not agree with anothers choices. Usually when I am happy it reflects on those around me. We are all a little happier.
Who hasn't thought of say a car or a stereo they saw in their youth they wouldn't pay more for now than it was worth new? Personally I have always wanted a 1975 chevy monza with a 305 and a 4 speed. Just for long enough to trash my insurance before I wake up.
Enjoy what you can, life is too short.
And one day I hope to afford two of those increadible expensive martin logan reference speakers, 80k eai think, just for my stereo/TV room. Just a dream of mine.
Take care all

[RobotCzar]

Well, I've never been exposed to West Nile virus (yet), but I know it's a bad deal. It seems rather dumb to pay excessively for no benefit for the privilege of saying there is no benefit. Nobody, including e-stat has demonstrated they can hear differences in performance of high-priced or ultra-high-priced or extremely-ultra-for-suckers-who-morgage-their-house-high-priced equipment. (Or with cheap equipment.)

Even in the case of speakers there is a point at which NO speaker can give better performance (particularly into a unknown room). We can't even define what extremely-utlra-good performance IS for speakers operating in a real room.

Subjective audio fans like e-stat have no measure of what is even GOOD. they simply go by what they like (not what is accurate based on a live standard). They like what is expensive so they are getting what they paid for.

[hifitommy]

WHEN did THAT start? havent seen too many important ones.

[E-Stat]

Nobody, including e-stat has demonstrated they can hear differences in performance of high-priced or ultra-high-priced or extremely-ultra-for-suckers-who-morgage-their-house-high-priced equipment.
Listen to HP's system or perhaps the one in question ( I have not) and you will find out for yourself. My guess is that such is outside your experience.



Subjective audio fans like e-stat have no measure of what is even GOOD. they simply go by what they like (not what is accurate based on a live standard). They like what is expensive so they are getting what they paid for.
You really should ask for a refund from the Psychic Friends Network.

If, on the other hand, you are really interested in what I believe and my points of reference, let me know.

rw